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Why is there a species clause?
- Thread starter pictish
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I don't. I would probably use a team with 2 smeargles on it. A lot of setting up opportunities you have then.
i can see in ubers it would be a problam not haveing a specis clause, but in standerd i dont see that there would be much change. maybe few people would run 2 mences, or 2 lukes but this would give you a disadvantage most of the time.
Stealth Rock exists...bye Sashers.Ice Shard Mamoswine,bye all the Garchomps.A Abomasnow+Scarf Froslass=dead Garchomps for sure.
Lucario?Hitmontop laughs at any Lucario used(all it needs is 1 Bulk Up),but with all the fast moves,maybe 2 Hitmontops to take care.
Oh,Infernape...Aerodactyl takes care of any(with Stealth Rock down)
One i can see giving problems is Regirock,ready to Counter assaults,cursing,Choice Bander...bud it dies to Ludicolo...
Simple:no one ever uses more than one of the same poke in one team.It's stupid.This clause is dumb if you ask me.
Lucario?Hitmontop laughs at any Lucario used(all it needs is 1 Bulk Up),but with all the fast moves,maybe 2 Hitmontops to take care.
Oh,Infernape...Aerodactyl takes care of any(with Stealth Rock down)
One i can see giving problems is Regirock,ready to Counter assaults,cursing,Choice Bander...bud it dies to Ludicolo...
Simple:no one ever uses more than one of the same poke in one team.It's stupid.This clause is dumb if you ask me.
I think without species clause, you might occasionally see people running two of something (Spec/CBMence, DDtar/Boah, etc) but overall, having a diverse team makes you ready to counter more things. Maybe 2-4 if it can have a really diverse moveset, but 6 is unlikely. Of course someone would do it, and people would have to start taking that into account, but some tweaking of existing teams can usually cover it.
Hmm, I at one point promoted the testing of the viability of species clause.
However...I am taking a different stance on this. I simply enjoy facing 6 different Pokemon, as opposed to 3 different ones with me seeing one of them 4 times.
Also, there is the issue of the game becoming more of a guessing game than it already is. Focus Sash and Choice Scarf have contributed to this enough as is, and now having to guess between 2 Garchomp sets, 2 Lucario sets, a Tyranitar and a Salamence just seems like promoting "who can guess better" wars.
Again, I'd like to stress that this obviously isn't an empirical or even objective argument from my end; I would just prefer Species Clause.
However...I am taking a different stance on this. I simply enjoy facing 6 different Pokemon, as opposed to 3 different ones with me seeing one of them 4 times.
Also, there is the issue of the game becoming more of a guessing game than it already is. Focus Sash and Choice Scarf have contributed to this enough as is, and now having to guess between 2 Garchomp sets, 2 Lucario sets, a Tyranitar and a Salamence just seems like promoting "who can guess better" wars.
Again, I'd like to stress that this obviously isn't an empirical or even objective argument from my end; I would just prefer Species Clause.
i dont mind it i can play with and without bit it just requires a little more thinking no one is gonna use the same set on 2 of the same pokemon (well they might but they might change items)
personally i would use 2 cresselia (psycho shift/ standard sets) and maybe 2 blissies (standard/ counter sets) but your doubling your weakness/resistances and the the number of times a counter can come in and rape your team
in the case of 5 powder garchomps +ttar a simple but well made rain dance team can outspeed everything and OHKO with ice beam + surf praying you dont miss cuz of brightpowder
personally i would use 2 cresselia (psycho shift/ standard sets) and maybe 2 blissies (standard/ counter sets) but your doubling your weakness/resistances and the the number of times a counter can come in and rape your team
in the case of 5 powder garchomps +ttar a simple but well made rain dance team can outspeed everything and OHKO with ice beam + surf praying you dont miss cuz of brightpowder
You didn't quite seem to get my whole post.
We play a Pokemon metagame now in which, sometimes through the random number generator and sometimes through movesets where more and more Pokemon are able to beat their own counters, and once that's done the win is basically assured. Just about everyone has had a battle where a Gyarados flinched through multiple counters, and a battle where Garchomp dodged three Ice Beams and two Ice Shards, etc..
I don't see why we need to exacerbate that problem, nor restrict the usage of defensive Pokemon without reliable recovery moves even farther. You're the one bringing up this topic; where is your compelling argument towards making this change?
My biggest concern is that a good competitive game should be as much about skill and knowledge and as little about randomness or luck as possible. I'm not saying that we couldn't run a competitive game without species clause, but I think the competitive nature of the game would be significantly reduced by such a change.
Why? Because facing 4 Garchomps means each time they switch in, I have to guess which set I'm facing and try to counter. If I'm facing jumpman's Lucario team, the guessing game increases even more. Salamence? Specs? Banded? Mixed? It makes playing the game, choosing moves and making changes more about random guessing than is does about calculating risks.
That's not a good competitive environment. That's chaos.
In the current metagame, your opponent basically has one chance to surprise you with their set. You have the opportunity to scout or make an educated guess, but if they surprise you with something original or tricky, you have the chance to identify the set and build a strategy to compete. Despite all of the random number issues, crits, etc, etc... this basic system makes Pokemon a solid competitive system.
If we remove species clause, yes... it will be POSSIBLE to counter their team and get an easy win in some instances. However, for the most part, the game would devolve into a guessing game. Do I attack with special or physical attacks? Do I need to use a priority move to hit you before you throw up a sub or do I go for a SE attack for more damage? You can't make much by way of educated guesses. You're just guessing. That's not a good competitive game at all.
Why? Because facing 4 Garchomps means each time they switch in, I have to guess which set I'm facing and try to counter. If I'm facing jumpman's Lucario team, the guessing game increases even more. Salamence? Specs? Banded? Mixed? It makes playing the game, choosing moves and making changes more about random guessing than is does about calculating risks.
That's not a good competitive environment. That's chaos.
In the current metagame, your opponent basically has one chance to surprise you with their set. You have the opportunity to scout or make an educated guess, but if they surprise you with something original or tricky, you have the chance to identify the set and build a strategy to compete. Despite all of the random number issues, crits, etc, etc... this basic system makes Pokemon a solid competitive system.
If we remove species clause, yes... it will be POSSIBLE to counter their team and get an easy win in some instances. However, for the most part, the game would devolve into a guessing game. Do I attack with special or physical attacks? Do I need to use a priority move to hit you before you throw up a sub or do I go for a SE attack for more damage? You can't make much by way of educated guesses. You're just guessing. That's not a good competitive game at all.
I think the most common reason for SC, is that you send out X pokemon, they send a counter, you counter the counter/threats to this pokemon, and then sweep with this X pokemon, but I don't think that happens much, also some people would confused when they see SDChomp then ScarfChomp, unless you nickname, I wouldn't mind it personally, but really why would you want to use more than one pokemon besides the fact that you like it or have a different set?
Jolly, CB Heracross...?
Anyways, a lot of people are saying "6 of the same Pokemon is easy to counter!", but what happens when you have two Smeargle? One could pass Nasty Plots and Agilities to Gengar/Yanmega/Lucario/something, the other could pass Belly Drums to Gallade/Lucario/etc. It's especially hard to predict two Salamences, you won't know whether to send out Suicune to counter the Dragon Dancer or Blissey into the Specsmence.
However, I'm not supporting Species Clause.
Maybe the flip side is that Garchomp is not broken if he is only allowed singly, or that a pokemon's possibly abusive power is limited by four-move syndrome and "one of the poke per team clauses".
Species clause is only broken if there is some pokemon in the metagame that is extremely powerful and has the ability to overwhelm even its counters under certain conditions but can only run one set at a time due to being locked at one per team.
Species clause is only broken if there is some pokemon in the metagame that is extremely powerful and has the ability to overwhelm even its counters under certain conditions but can only run one set at a time due to being locked at one per team.
Hippowdon, Scarf Garchomp, Swords Dance Garchomp with Fire Blast, Chain Chomp, Blissey, lol Mawile (or Skarmory).
Have fun!
Its only a matter of time until one of them gets it right. If names are not different how do you know what to switch into? How many times can Bronzong switch in until he takes the brunt force of a Fire Blast? What about Hippowdon and Draco Meteor?
Mawile to take Weavile. lol. Or Skarmory to take Weavile and Mamoswine.
Have fun!
Its only a matter of time until one of them gets it right. If names are not different how do you know what to switch into? How many times can Bronzong switch in until he takes the brunt force of a Fire Blast? What about Hippowdon and Draco Meteor?
Mawile to take Weavile. lol. Or Skarmory to take Weavile and Mamoswine.
Hai Spiritomb!
I once tried doing an all-Gengar team once. It pretty much went straight through everything that didn't hax it. The main thing about this is that you're playing a game of Russian Roulette when you go up against more than one version of a Pokemon. When you see one variation, you send a counter for that Pokemon in the next time you see it. But if that's the opponent running another variation of the same Pokemon, the one you sent in doesn't necessarily counter that variation. You can send in Slowbro on a physical Infernape, but it doesn't particularly like being sent in on special Infernapes.
enjoy your infernape, salamence and garchomp teams, why change the fucking metagame.
Hai, anything that can 1 hit fucking spritomb, wish support, heavy hitter and 4 wobbuffets and maybe a spinner isnt very fun.
Hai, anything that can 1 hit fucking spritomb, wish support, heavy hitter and 4 wobbuffets and maybe a spinner isnt very fun.
Because it kind of sucks atm imo.
Heh, my favourite thing is that people are suggesting that without species clause we'd have to play a more luck based or guessing game. If that's a huge concern, the nickname differentiation solution exists, unless you are suggesting that having to face two garchomps you can distinguish against is more of a guessing game than having to face a garchomp and guess the build then a salamence and guess the build.
You have to guess all 6 of the opponents pokemon's movesets even when they're all different, and while some pokemon have extremely predictable movesets, they can still vary it up within a degree of forcing you to guess. I'd argue that even a pokemon with only subtle differences about what you can switch in to counter it (Bronzong with explosion or not, rain dance or not or Forry with/without earthquake) are more unpredictable than a second of almost any pokemon bar smeargle. If you've already switched into a specsmence (that first guess you have to do with or without species clause) when you see that second salamence, you have to guess the build again but it is unlikely that you will see multiples of the same build, making the guessing game slimmer than that of the first match up, which is currently allowed with the species clause. If someone really can run 3-4 specs mence and stomp all over the metagame it's like Obi pointed out - this really says more about salamence than the species clause, if in 2-3 more slots than usual no pokemon will do the job as well as another salamence, garchomp, whatever.
So besides the 'If the pokemon don't have a nickname and you can't tell them apart they might be unfairly hard to distinguish" which can have a clear warranted and enforcable rule made against it, what grounds is there for species clause?
You have to guess all 6 of the opponents pokemon's movesets even when they're all different, and while some pokemon have extremely predictable movesets, they can still vary it up within a degree of forcing you to guess. I'd argue that even a pokemon with only subtle differences about what you can switch in to counter it (Bronzong with explosion or not, rain dance or not or Forry with/without earthquake) are more unpredictable than a second of almost any pokemon bar smeargle. If you've already switched into a specsmence (that first guess you have to do with or without species clause) when you see that second salamence, you have to guess the build again but it is unlikely that you will see multiples of the same build, making the guessing game slimmer than that of the first match up, which is currently allowed with the species clause. If someone really can run 3-4 specs mence and stomp all over the metagame it's like Obi pointed out - this really says more about salamence than the species clause, if in 2-3 more slots than usual no pokemon will do the job as well as another salamence, garchomp, whatever.
So besides the 'If the pokemon don't have a nickname and you can't tell them apart they might be unfairly hard to distinguish" which can have a clear warranted and enforcable rule made against it, what grounds is there for species clause?