i now know not to bring rotom wash
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Finchinator sneaking in comments about sets he runs countering meta threats one by one until he successfully manipulates MudkipNerd into running Maushold:
OU Room was discussing Garganacl counterplay, and the conversation moved around to Covert Cloak. This is an item that blocks secondary effects from opposing Pokemons' moves (think Shield Dust). While this can obviously do things like block Dark Pulse/Air Slash flinches, Hurricane confusions, and Shadow Ball SpDef drops, perhaps the most relevant thing it does is stop the passive damage from Salt Cure.
Has anyone experimented at all with this? It seems like it might be an interesting anti-Garganacl tech on Pokemon like NP Gholdengo, Amoonguss, Toxapex, or ID+BP Corviknight, though sadly those all get walled by a certain Garganacl Tera type regardless (Water, Steel, Poison, Ghost, Fairy each beat at least one of those answers even without Salt Cure damage). Obviously item slots are competitive right now with how good Boots are, and Cover Cloak isn't that much better than Leftovers at negating Salt Cure damage (while obviously Leftovers are a much more generally useful item), but I figured it was worth at least considering (particularly on Water or Steel types, where the gap between Covert Cloak and Leftovers is larger).
Garganacl is indisputably a big threat right now, perhaps the scariest Pokemon in the metagame in endgame situations, and it's effectively able to pick its counters with its choice of Tera type (only a few Pokemon like Specs Valiant can truly claim to beat every set, and they can get worn down from switching into Salt Cure repeatedly), so perhaps dedicating an item slot to it isn't super unreasonable.
njnp brought up the idea of covert cloak gholdengo to me and I think it's a really splashable way to deal with garg and other fat cores, has some nice added bonus of ignoring nuzzle, mystical fire drops, poisons from clodsire if you tera etc. This was the set and spread I came up. TYou definitely miss out on boots but still a super practical set.
OU Room was discussing Garganacl counterplay, and the conversation moved around to Covert Cloak. This is an item that blocks secondary effects from opposing Pokemons' moves (think Shield Dust). While this can obviously do things like block Dark Pulse/Air Slash flinches, Hurricane confusions, and Shadow Ball SpDef drops, perhaps the most relevant thing it does is stop the passive damage from Salt Cure.
Has anyone experimented at all with this? It seems like it might be an interesting anti-Garganacl tech on Pokemon like NP Gholdengo, Amoonguss, Toxapex, or ID+BP Corviknight, though sadly those all get walled by a certain Garganacl Tera type regardless (Water, Steel, Poison, Ghost, Fairy each beat at least one of those answers even without Salt Cure damage). Obviously item slots are competitive right now with how good Boots are, and Cover Cloak isn't that much better than Leftovers at negating Salt Cure damage (while obviously Leftovers are a much more generally useful item), but I figured it was worth at least considering (particularly on Water or Steel types, where the gap between Covert Cloak and Leftovers is larger).
Garganacl is indisputably a big threat right now, perhaps the scariest Pokemon in the metagame in endgame situations, and it's effectively able to pick its counters with its choice of Tera type (only a few Pokemon like Specs Valiant can truly claim to beat every set, and they can get worn down from switching into Salt Cure repeatedly), so perhaps dedicating an item slot to it isn't super unreasonable.
Gholdengo @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SpA / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
Anti Garganacl tech bonus stage: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1751961209-rl3je8nf0m5ltmbr0dq0vxpc6zymn7kpw
Not going to lie that's a cool set for Dragapult, Anti-Gargnacl AF. You don't even need to run any HP EVs.
Thanks Mr Barksdale
So what were you doing in those turns when they were setting hazards?
Young'uns got used to being able to press the Defog button and clear out hazards, and now they're having to deal with the good old days of spinblocking and hazard stack. This old fart thinks it's a good change!
NGL, I thought the Roost + other recovery moves being nerfed would matter more & it does indeed suck in longer games + in general since you have less flexibility w/ certain Pokemon, but in some weird way, I feel like the PP nerf been too big of a deciding factor in most games. It certainly makes Stalemate situations (where you just spam Recovery moves in the face of an attack that deals a lot damage) much less favorable for the Recovery move user, but if you have a decent enough defensive core, it will still be getting the job done & acting as a nice stop gap for the threats you are facing. Its also interesting how these defensive mons have to be played a bit more offensive now as well, like Blissey using Shadow Ball to make some progress vs Gholdengo & Dirge, or Pex using Chilling Water on a predicted Great Tusk switch in to guarantee an easy Pivot into your own big threat. Don't know why, but using these mons feels a bit more fun compared to Gen 8 (except Corv, feels like he got nerfed hard w/ the changes & his main source of utility now comes from his slow U-Turn).
I think the biggest loss of the recovery moves was how much it nerfs the CroCune type sets. I've got a lot of run from CroCune over the generations, but it feels like rest/sleep talk is a lot less reliable as a bulky strat than it was in prior gens. Part of that is the tempo of the current OU (and to a lesser extent UU) doesn't really let you get the time to set that up as often, but just a general observation
Man you straight up bullied that poor boy's Garganacl. That was so dirty to watch, I feel like I need a shower now, lmao.
Yeah, I felt this too with Clod/Quag. In BDSP I could just seemingly endlessly wall various physical setup mons in OU with Water Absorb + Haze + Recover, but with Recover now only have 8PP, that becomes far and a way less doable. Especially with the raw powerhouses going around.
Though it makes me wonder, are absorb ability mons going to see some more usage now that their hard recovery is nerfed?
I feel like those abilities tend to be more valuable for Blanking Attack types and discouraging their usage vs actually switching into them and gaining healing as a result.
You say that, but I’ve seen multiple matches where a proper Earth Eater Orthworm switch allowed for an extra game-deciding Shed Tail. I think Absorb-type Abilities as an actual recovery tool are on the rise, especially on a mon like Clodsire that can viably run it or another really good Ability.
Stall is good rn, stop coping that Stall is dead this gen. I don’t mean traditional stall, moreso Semi-Stall with one or two wincons. Blissey with Tera deals with Chiyu (even though its still broken) Ape loses to Dondozo if its Tera Fire, or Wisp Talon if its Tera Water. This gen gained new tools and has old ones. Garg, three Unaware walls, a great mon on semi-stall in Ghold who keeps up hazards. You can slap Boots on 4 or 5 of your mons and not worry about hazard stacking. Not to mention we still have Pex who is amazing at pivoting vs 90% of the meta and with Tera it becomes even more versatile. Anyone who says Ghold is broken need to remember WE HAVE BOOTS. The item y’all complained about last gen is now even better with less Knock distribution this time around. The only big threat to stall is Band Pao who could still lose if Talonflame gets Flame Body procs. Its crazy how even with just 8 pp recovery moves, Stall is still a strong archetype atm.
Agreed, I thought stall was dead when the facts came out about recovery moves in general. Playing the meta though it might be more alive than it ever was because of Gholdengo (at least since Gen 5), its difficult to play around Gholdengo especially if it's running Air Balloon to go for the EQ / Rapid Spin if you're using Great Tusk. The whole point of classic stall is entry hazard and go ahead and roar / whirlwind away, and with Defog being learned by almost every single Pokémon I think it's made a reemergence here in Gen 9 OU thanks to Gholdengo, especially things like Tera Fairy Gargnacl screwing teams up with the godly move known as Salt Cure. But like you said I don't think it's traditional stall 6 walls and lets go up to 200 turn games, I think it is Semi-Stall / Neo-Stall where not every single Pokémon is a fat wall.
Band Chien-Pao is a mixed bag, since it's arguably one of the best tools defensive teams can use as well to threaten big damage and clean-up the opponents team in the late game w/ very minimal effort. It also benefits from Defog & slow U-turn support from corv.
If you have to literally redefine “stall” to claim it’s still a viable archetype, it’s not a viable archetype.
the thing is, people claim to be stall, semi stall, hard stall, at least in my opinion, the archetype goes like this
6 walls with 1 of them having the aditional offensive utility that benefits the team? stall
4-5 walls with one or two wincons? maybe with harder hitting attacks but more frailty? semi stall
6 hard walls that do nothing except spam shit and see your spirit die because you went with sub hippowdown and now they are just laughing out of pure cringe? hard stall
to me, hard stall is dead, normal stall is okay, Choice Scarf dengo really does wonders for this teams
Speaking of chien pao, i have started to see a strat where you act like a dumbfuck and dont show ice shard untill you belive they are dumb enough to not bring ice shard, then pulling up ice shard when he could have killed you 10 turns ago but didnt, and now your confused as to why, i know this sounds ridiculous, but i have seen enough people do this to know that this is no longer a contained meme
We always had some stall teams with 1 mon that could pressure a team offensively. In Gen 8 there was NP Taunt Torn or Gen 7 with Bulkorona. Now we have NP Ghold who blocks spin/defog, and checks Valiant in Gen 9. Also it has high value since it has great mus against the best styles atm. Boots spam takes no shit from Grimm/Ghold hazard stack teams. HO teams rely on Shed Tail and Ape to break these teams which are foiled by Talon. If Ape is Tera Fire then Dondozo can 1v1 it. A lack of Knock distribution and its surprisingly decent mu against Chi-Yu makes it a serious playstyle to consider.
F*ck Bozo (Cinderace) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Electro Ball
- Pyro Ball
- Court Change
252 SpA Choice Specs Libero Cinderace Electro Ball (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dondozo: 534-630 (105.9 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Electro Ball
- Pyro Ball
- Court Change
252 SpA Choice Specs Libero Cinderace Electro Ball (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dondozo: 534-630 (105.9 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Stall isn't dead, however stall has become much worse this gen Recover nerf has been pretty huge.
I have to say, I’m 100% guilty of using Thunder Ferrothorn as anti-rain tech in Gen 7, so I’m absolutely down for pulling out a surprise Electric move on an unsuspecting Water-type who thinks they’re all that and a bag of chips, and dunking on Dondozo is always good and morally correct, but I feel like there are better Pokémon to run as Dozo lures than Cinderace. Especially since Cinderace isn’t actually in the game yet.
(Totally stealing this set tho)
Hey guys I’m just in the process of breeding a Happiny. How important is it to have 0 atk IVs on it? The best I’ve got so far is around 8 (with the other 5 stats being perfect). Is it really worth trying to get any lower considering Blissey’s bottom tier atk stat anyway? Or is 8 perfectly serviceable for mitigating potential foul play damage?
What reliably checks Whirlwind Ting-Lu and Slack Off Hippowdon? Tried using Banded Flower Trick and it only does 58%, which is good until whirlwind resets all progress i made, and using tera just for one or two mons is a waste, when it couldve been used on a sweeper or other wincon.
Realistically, Foul Play and Strength Sap are pretty rare and Blissey’s Attack is so low that it doesn’t matter whether you have 0 or 31 Attack IVs. Don’t worry about it too much.
(I think there are other threads where you’re better suited asking questions like this, but I don’t know where they are so I’m unable to direct you there.)
Thankyou lovely. Yeah I didn’t know anywhere else to ask this. I figured because if you’re trying to take down a Blissey with Foul Play you’re doing something wrong lol.
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