GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

There is a very good reason almost nobody uses Eevee in GSC. It's remarkably inefficient. The OG 3 suffer from stone evo problems with the only realistically viable of them being Vaporeon thanks to Surf. Meanwhile you get Espeon and Umbreon so painfully late (around 8 badges normally) that their contributions are pretty negligible. Even if you can get Espeon and Umbreon around Morty, you shove so many vitamins and haircuts into them that either your progress (waiting for days to elapse / changing the clock) or money slows to a crawl. While Umbreon lacks Dark type competition, the fact remains that it is still Umbreon with awful offenses.

As for X items, even if this wasn't strictly for friendship, there's a good reason they are usually banned. Pokemon with stat buff moves will generally have a much greater viability than those without them. You can turn anything into a sweeper with them, ESPECIALLY from Gen 7 onward. It becomes less about the Pokemon in question and more about "which mons have busted offensive stats to abuse priority buffs with." It creates a massive unstable equilibrium / slippery slope, which is precisely why we don't allow them.
 
Enough with Tauros. Just stop. A lot of your comparisons are towards Tauros as of late. Let it rest. I'm getting very tired of you taking jabs at it when it clearly does not need to be said. The point is that the run is still invalidated as X Items are banned from testing. This is stated in the OP. There is no wiggle room for this. X-Items are not allowed in any run.
Love how you did not even acknowledge my other points about Espeon. Comparing it to soft-resetting multiple times to getting Tauros into a Friend Ball (also inefficient and time-consuming) is completely fair, so it makes little sense to then turn around and hypocritically complain about the HP Dark thing.

You should have clarified what the X Item ban meant, especially when we have earlier tier lists straight up allowing their use to boost Friendship.

There is a very good reason almost nobody uses Eevee in GSC. It's remarkably inefficient. The OG 3 suffer from stone evo problems with the only realistically viable of them being Vaporeon thanks to Surf. Meanwhile you get Espeon and Umbreon so painfully late (around 8 badges normally) that their contributions are pretty negligible. Even if you can get Espeon and Umbreon around Morty, you shove so many vitamins and haircuts into them that either your progress (waiting for days to elapse / changing the clock) or money slows to a crawl. While Umbreon lacks Dark type competition, the fact remains that it is still Umbreon with awful offenses.

As for X items, even if this wasn't strictly for friendship, there's a good reason they are usually banned. Pokemon with stat buff moves will generally have a much greater viability than those without them. You can turn anything into a sweeper with them, ESPECIALLY from Gen 7 onward. It becomes less about the Pokemon in question and more about "which mons have busted offensive stats to abuse priority buffs with." It creates a massive unstable equilibrium / slippery slope, which is precisely why we don't allow them.
These are relatively fair points, but I don't know about the almost nobody part. I've definitely used one in a few playthroughs, Nuzlocke and normal.

The Espeon cost is overstated - I got one fairly easily and never really had to worry about money. X-Items are banned in battle is how I interpreted the rule and how it was originally referenced. Never thought they would be banned from merely grinding Happiness against wild Magikarp, for instance.

Umbreon has not been tested yet, IIRC, and I really do not see an Umbreon test placing him anywhere above C (or even D). Espeon is a lot better.
 
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Love how you did not even acknowledge my other points about Espeon. Comparing to soft-resetting multiple times to getting Taurs into a Friend Ball is inefficient and time-consuming, so it makes little sense to then turn around and hypocritically complain about the HP Dark thing.

You should have clarified what the X Item ban meant, especially when we have lder tier lists straight up allowing their use to boost Friendship.
Enough. I told you my points on Espeon prior and invalidated your run on the basis of using X Items and other reasons. I grow tired of you pointlessly trying to start arguments when I have asked you to stop. X Items have been banned in every sense in this list. No exceptions. You tried to exploit a loophole and that hole has been plugged and you have had you test pulled from counting. Now stop. If you have nothing of value to contribute anymore on these mons, move on.
 
Love how you did not even acknowledge my other points about Espeon. Comparing it to soft-resetting multiple times to getting Tauros into a Friend Ball (also inefficient and time-consuming) is completely fair, so it makes little sense to then turn around and hypocritically complain about the HP Dark thing.

You should have clarified what the X Item ban meant, especially when we have earlier tier lists straight up allowing their use to boost Friendship.



These are relatively fair points, but I don't know about the almost nobody part. I've definitely used one in a few playthroughs, Nuzlocke and normal.

The Espeon cost is overstated - I got one fairly easily and never really had to worry about money. X-Items are banned in battle is how I interpreted the rule and how it was originally referenced. Never thought they would be banned from merely grinding Happiness against wild Magikarp, for instance.

Umbreon has not been tested yet, IIRC, and I really do not see an Umbreon test placing him anywhere above C (or even D). Espeon is a lot better.

"The Espeon cost is overstated."

"Uses 116 X Items"

No, if anything, I think you're understating it massively. That's $58,000 for 116 X Items. You cannot tell me with a straight face that is just trivial investment. What if I wanted to buy healing items or revives with that money? That saps so many resources away from the rest of my team, but that's apparently okay because Espeon can maybe hit like a wet non-STAB towel against Morty and Chuck who are really not that hard (Morty is more status RNG than actually tough, while Chuck dies to literally anything with decent offense). Oh wait, no it's not okay because I poured half my wallet down the toilet to get a mediocre Pokemon without STAB for 15 levels. it's borderline irrelevant short term gain for how much you have to invest. Never mind the fact Espeon lacks STAB until level 36 Psybeam, so like...what do you actually do with it when you don't have STAB until the time it tends to evolve anyway????? It's full of holes no matter how I look at it.

I'm all for finding the proverbial gold nugget in a pile of trash, but at some point you just need to stop looking. Espeon is not worth it for a teamslot at worst and a massive resource sink at best.

Also stop it with the Tauros nonsense. It's irrelevant to Espeon's tiering.
 
Enough. I told you my points on Espeon prior and invalidated your run on the basis of using X Items and other reasons. I grow tired of you pointlessly trying to start arguments when I have asked you to stop. X Items have been banned in every sense in this list. No exceptions. You tried to exploit a loophole and that hole has been plugged and you have had you test pulled from counting. Now stop. If you have nothing of value to contribute anymore on these mons, move on.
There was no need to invalidate the ENTIRE run for it is my point, and your double standards are showing.

And don't blame me for your failure to communicate the parameters of your tier list.

"The Espeon cost is overstated."

"Uses 116 X Items"

No, if anything, I think you're understating it massively. That's $58,000 for 116 X Items. You cannot tell me with a straight face that is just trivial investment. What if I wanted to buy healing items or revives with that money? That saps so many resources away from the rest of my team, but that's apparently okay because Espeon can maybe hit like a wet non-STAB towel against Morty and Chuck who are really not that hard (Morty is more status RNG than actually tough, while Chuck dies to literally anything with decent offense). Oh wait, no it's not okay because I poured half my wallet down the toilet to get a mediocre Pokemon without STAB for 15 levels. it's borderline irrelevant short term gain for how much you have to invest. Never mind the fact Espeon lacks STAB until level 36 Psybeam, so like...what do you actually do with it when you don't have STAB until the time it tends to evolve anyway????? It's full of holes no matter how I look at it.

I'm all for finding the proverbial gold nugget in a pile of trash, but at some point you just need to stop looking. Espeon is not worth it for a teamslot at worst and a massive resource sink at best.

Also stop it with the Tauros nonsense. It's irrelevant to Espeon's tiering.
Fair on the $58,000, but healing items are quite cheap and can be easily found in the wild. I already DID factor in the cost of those X-Items, my point was to show you CAN get an Espeon this easily. I fully understand and agree this isn't the most optimal way, but it can be done is my point. I can even accept you invalidating the Morty test entirely. There was no need for you guys to invalidate the REST of Espeon's battles, where the extra EVs mean squat and Bite does the job of HP Dark. Also, Morty and Chuck are still bosses and not the only ones in the game either. We cannot ignore that.

Cool, still need to test Espeon and still don't regret it. It's not a time sink, either, and it's not for you, me, or any of us to decide if they're worth a teamslot or not. Let individual players make that decision. You're still wrong, at any rate - Espeon was C-Tier material, even accounting for everything.

No, it is very relevant in that you guys are being hypocritical/inconsistent in regard to setting precedent, just like in the last thread. Fun thing is, I was perfectly polite to you in the very last post, yet you suddenly decided to call my argument nonsense.

Tiering has to be consistent and sensible. I can accept this odd X-Item ban (genuine monetary cost and all), but the anti-HP Dark pushback is hypocritical and illogical nonsense, and the near-complete majority of my post-L30 tests would be the same if I had Bite.
 
There was no need to invalidate the ENTIRE run for it is my point, and your double standards are showing.

And don't blame me for your failure to communicate the parameters of your tier list.



Fair on the $58,000, but healing items are quite cheap and can be easily found in the wild. I already DID factor in the cost of those X-Items, my point was to show you CAN get an Espeon this easily. I fully understand and agree this isn't the most optimal way, but it can be done is my point. I can even accept you invalidating the Morty test entirely. There was no need for you guys to invalidate the REST of Espeon's battles, where the extra EVs mean squat and Bite does the job of HP Dark. Also, Morty and Chuck are still bosses and not the only ones in the game either. We cannot ignore that.

Cool, still need to test Espeon and still don't regret it. It's not a time sink, either, and it's not for you, me, or any of us to decide if they're worth a teamslot or not. Let individual players make that decision. You're still wrong, at any rate - Espeon was C-Tier material, even accounting for everything.

No, it is very relevant in that you guys are being hypocritical/inconsistent in regard to setting precedent, just like in the last thread. Fun thing is, I was perfectly polite to you in the very last post, yet you suddenly decided to called my argument nonsense.
Aegon, enough. You violated the rules of the thread by trying to exploit a loophole. You still used 116 X Items in battles regardless of the the circumstances. It doesn’t matter if other lists allowed it, it’s not allowed here. It’s pretty obvious when something is banned you don’t do anything with it. You played with fire and you got burned. I blame your inability to read and abide by the rules set by this list.
 
Aegon, enough. You violated the rules of the thread by trying to exploit a loophole. You still used 116 X Items in battles regardless of the the circumstances. It doesn’t matter if other lists allowed it, it’s not allowed here. It’s pretty obvious when something is banned you don’t do anything with it. You played with fire and you got burned. I blame your inability to read and abide by the rules set by this list.
Still missing the point:

There was no need to invalidate the ENTIRE run for it is my point
And ignoring this:

Tiering has to be consistent and sensible. I can accept this odd X-Item ban (genuine monetary cost and all), but the anti-HP Dark pushback is hypocritical and illogical nonsense, and the near-complete majority of my post-L30 tests would be the same if I had Bite.
And when your tier list diverges from others (be it past tier lists or present tier lists for other games), it is your responsibility to explain why and how.

EDIT: And even another poster noted the issue before I did.

I'm not gonna defend this nor gonna argue with this, but i thought X-Items are only banned during boss fights, and that its okay to used the X-item for friendship grinding purposes, I would actually be surprised that using X-Items to friendship grind against wild pokemon is also banned even though this method of friendship grind is inefficient for a lot of times, because my main understanding from "X-Items are banned" is that you can't used it on major battles. Aside from that, yeah, that usage of 116 X-Item to evolve Eevee pre-Morty alone doesn't scream C Tier to me (feels like E Tier or worse if you asked me)
Ofc they do not necessarily defend my test, and that's fine, but you did not communicate this properly.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
While I'm personally not a fan of the X items ban for reasons I don't feel like getting into, having to dump such a ludicrously high number of them on Eevee to get Espeon in any reasonable timeframe is asinine. It's D Rank at best due to the massive resource drain.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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(not related to Espeon/X Items since there isn't really much to say that wasn't already mentioned)

since Cyndaquil was dropped down to C, I think it might be a good idea to drop Crystal Growlithe to C-tier as well, given that it's similar to/outright worse than Cyndaquil in most relevant areas. To highlight some:

- Slow growth rate means you are pouring more experience in it than other things, especially when compared to most early-game Pokemon

- Its movepool is about as bad as Cyndaquil's, if not worse. Quilava gets Flame Wheel at level 31, wheres Growlithe has to wait until level 34 (which means you cannot evolve it early) to learn it. Typhlosion also gets Fire Punch for a stronger STAB, wheres Arcanine is stuck with Flame Wheel (both can use Fire Blast when needed, though), and Rollout to cheese through some fights if needed. Dig is a noteworthy mention for Arcanine, but iirc, TM reliance was used against Cyndaquil, so if we wanna stay consistent (and assuming that what I said actually happened, because I don't really remember), this should be counted as a negative too

- if you do decide to evolve it early, then you have to deal with all the backtracking that the Fire Stone/DST trick involves.

- while I admittedly don't have logs on me (I have to take some time to gather them up and it might be faster to simply retest them) and Arcanine was part of my very first test playthrough, I do remember some of the matchups and I wouldn't say it's significantly better than Cyndaquil. It's okay/good for Falkner and Bugsy, can pull in some work against Whitney if you evolve it, Morty goes down to Dig, and, like most Pokemon with reasonable offenses, performs well against Gyms 5-7. Its E4 performance is a lot worse than Typhlosion's given the latter has Fire Punch, but you should be able to KO a few Pokemon there if you have Flame Wheel

I can maybe retest Growlithe (with an early evolution and level 34 evolution to compare) to have a bit more modern logs if I muster up the motivation and energy to do it, but atm, I don't see much of a reason to have Growlithe higher than Cyndaquil
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I'm just going to say it.

If Cyndaquil is C then Chikorita needs to be lower.

Everyone knows Chikorita is bad. It's widely regarded as one of the worst starters to use and I cannot fathom how it's been dodging a D Rank placement for all these years. I made sure to look at the logs posted on the third page and it was consistently doing 3/4HKOs or worse during a bunch of major fights. And it was grossly overleveled for a few of those.

Can it tank well and make some fights like Whitney a bit safer? Yeah, but it's still doing shit for damage and requires a lot of investment to level up. Plus some of its "good" matchups are free fights like Chuck. Cyndaquil has a lot of issues, but at least it can kill things after it gets Flame Wheel.

Chikorita for D or even E. Why would you ever use it unless you were forced to.
 

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
Still missing the point:

And ignoring this:

And when your tier list diverges from others (be it past tier lists or present tier lists for other games), it is your responsibility to explain why and how.

EDIT: And even another poster noted the issue before I did.

Ofc they do not necessarily defend my test, and that's fine, but you did not communicate this properly.
You've been asked by the thread runner to stop multiple times. So please stop. This has been a relatively constant line in this thread for a long time. Take a break and walk away for a few days.

Whether or not Espeon is any good, no one can believe 100+ items on any Pokémon is efficient at all. Eevee and the majority of its evolutions are not worth using and that many items on one Mon is just straight to E/bottom tier to me - regardless of how powerful it potentially ends up being.

Every time I pop into this thread there is bickering going on. Discuss things like adults and just chill out. This goes to everyone.
 
I'm just going to say it.

If Cyndaquil is C then Chikorita needs to be lower.

Everyone knows Chikorita is bad. It's widely regarded as one of the worst starters to use and I cannot fathom how it's been dodging a D Rank placement for all these years. I made sure to look at the logs posted on the third page and it was consistently doing 3/4HKOs or worse during a bunch of major fights. And it was grossly overleveled for a few of those.

Can it tank well and make some fights like Whitney a bit safer? Yeah, but it's still doing shit for damage and requires a lot of investment to level up. Plus some of its "good" matchups are free fights like Chuck. Cyndaquil has a lot of issues, but at least it can kill things after it gets Flame Wheel.

Chikorita for D or even E. Why would you ever use it unless you were forced to.
Friendly reminder that one Pokémon’s placement should not impact another’s placement, not even a starter. I do think comparisons are inevitable when raising something to S or dropping it to E though, which is why this post has some: S is a clear cut above where most should dominate and E is a black eye that signifies a Pokémon has no redeeming qualities at all. Both should be given serious consideration.

I totally agree Chikorita should probably be dropped to D. This isn’t HGSS where Meganium at least has Specs Petal Dance. That being said, I have a hard time seeing Chikorita below D. The only other time in the history of these lists I have ever called a starter D tier is Yellow Pikachu, which is an abomination of Arceus in viability. Not even Snivy managed D - but I can totally say Chikorita is D worthy in spite of these examples because it at least has above average stats unlike Yellow Pikachu. E is basically calling something outright unusable, and while I can totally agree Chikorita is pretty garbage, I would never put it in the realm of Wobbuffet, Unown and Ledian. By objective facts, Meganium has better stats than most of GSC’s trash - it can’t do a lot, but I’m sure as crap using it before I take Ponyta for a playthrough.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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okay so hours after making my last post, I managed to speed through Crystal (thanks 10x VBA speed). I tested an early evolution Growlithe and a "wait till level 34" Growlithe and will provide logs later in the post. To make some quick corrections from/additions to my own post:

- Arcanine's endgame performance isn't that worse compared to Typhlosion's, it still got a good amount of KOes.

- it doesn't seem like there's much of a merit to wait for Flame Wheel. While it helps you net a few KOs more quickly, Arcanine was generally safe in those matchups. On the other hand, because Growlithe was not evolved, several of its mid-game matchups relied on contested TMs or were significantly worse.

- Growlithe has one minor advantage early on, compared to Cyndaquil, which is that you can beat the rival with it if you picked Totodile

notes about the logs:
- Arcanine doesn't use Fire Blast, as my own Cyndaquil logs didn't have it either and I wanted better comparison
- the second batch of logs only includes ones where the immediate evolution one had notable advantages. For minor/no differences, those were put in the level 34 ones

Growlithe

Falkner(11): Ember 2HKOes and 3HKOes, respectively. Pidgeotto spams Gust, which is a 5HKO from full health. Pidgey likes to go for Mud-slap. You can use Bite (which still 2HKOes) to fish for a flinch and get by without accuracy drops. Reasonably good, since you outspeed both

Bugsy: Charcoal Ember go brr

Silver(18): Bite OHKOes Gastly, Charcoal Ember 2HKOes Zubat and 3HKOes Bayleef. Only issue here was Supersonic, otherwise, great matchup

Whitney(21): Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Clefairy. Miltank seems to be 4HKOed after Leer, but it is faster and 3HKOes you easily, so nope

Morty(25): Dig OHKOes Gastly and Haunter #1 while outspeeding. Haunter #2 is faster and is OHKOed on rolls by Dig. Dig 2HKOes Gengar, which is faster and 2HKOes with Dream Eater if it lands a Hypnosis.

Chuck(30): Pink Bow Headbutt 3HKOes Primeape, which is faster. Lol against Poliwrath

Jasmine(31): Charcoal Ember 2HKOes Magnemite and 3HKOes Steelix, so you need Dig to OHKO Magnemite. Steelix 2HKOes with Rock Throw

Pryce(32): Headbutt 3HKOes Seel and 4HKOes Dewgong. If Dewgong outspeeds you, it is likely to put you in a Rest loop. Piloswine is 3HKOed by Charcoal Ember. Piloswine is only a threat if you somehowly managed to KO Dewgong, as at that point, you will be in range for two Blizzards.


Silver(34): Charcoal Flame Wheel OHKOes Magnemite and Sneasel and 2HKOes the rest, with Bite leaving Haunter in red.

Clair(39): Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Dragonair. The non-Surf ones don't threaten you much without severe bad luck, so you should be able to muscle through those, at least

Silver(41): Flame Wheel OHKOes Sneasel and Magneton and 2HKOes Meganium. Bite OHKOes Haunter and OHKOes Kadabra on rolls, the latter of which doesn't threaten you. Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Golbat

Will(42): Bite 2HKOes Xatu and 3HKOes Slowbro. Psychic is generally a 3HKO on Arcanine. Jynx and Eggy are 2HKOed by Charcoal Ember/Flame Wheel. You should be able to take out 2-3 threats here without healing and flinches

Koga(43): Charcoal Ember 2HKOes Ariados, while Charcoal Flame Wheel OHKOes. Forry is OHKOed and Moth is 2HKOed by either. Crobat is 3HKOed by Flame Wheel, but Double Team makes the matchup unreliable. Muk is also not worth bothering with due to evasion and eating even Flame Wheel

Bruno(43): PB Headbutt 2HKOes Hitmonlee and 3HKOes the rest. If you have Dig, you can troll Hitmontop as well and thus take out all three Hitmons. Bite also 2HKOes Onix, but weakens you to the point that Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan may present a threat

Karen(43): Charcoal Ember 3HKOes Vileplume, while Flame Wheel 2HKOes. Bite 2HKOes Gengar and Headbutt 2HKOes Murkrow. Houndoom is 3HKOed by Headbutt, so I suspect Dig can 2HKO it (you are faster).


Arcanine

Whitney(21): Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Clefairy and 4HKOes Miltank, outspeeding both. Miltank KOes with three Rollouts in succession and 5HKOes with Stomp. If any of your first three Headbutts nets a flinch, Arcanine wins almost for sure

Morty(25): outspeeds everything. Bite 2HKOes Gengar and OHKOes the rest. Dream Eater is a 3HKO. Easy sweep

Chuck(30): outspeeds and 2HKOes Primeape with Pink Bow Headbutt. Poliwrath is 4HKOed, which 2HKOes with Surf

Jasmine(31): Charcoal Ember OHKOes Magnemite and 3HKOes Steelix, which 4HKOes with Rock Throw

Pryce(32): Headbutt 2HKOes Seel and 3HKOes Dewgong. Ember 2HKOes Piloswine

Silver(34): Charcoal Ember 3HKOes Golbat, OHKOes Magnemite, and 2HKOes Sneasel. It also gets past Meganium easily. Haunter is left in red by Bite

Silver(41): Ember 2HKOes Sneasel and Magneton, the latter of which paralyzes you. Bite OHKOes Haunter and OHKOes Kadabra on rolls, though the latter doesn't threaten you. Meganium is 3HKOed by Ember and Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Golbat


conclusion: while immediate evolution Arcanine (which I am using as the base of nomination after concluding that it's the better variant) has some advantages over Cyndaquil, mainly that it doesn't require Dig to KO some threats and that it has more freedom against the rival, those are somewhat minor at best, considering the Slow growth rate (which Cyndaquil doesn't have) and the backtrack that the DST trick involves, so I am going to say drop Growlithe (C) to C for sure

edit: fixed rival fights mess

thank you for reading
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Friendly reminder that one Pokémon’s placement should not impact another’s placement, not even a starter. I do think comparisons are inevitable when raising something to S or dropping it to E though, which is why this post has some: S is a clear cut above where most should dominate and E is a black eye that signifies a Pokémon has no redeeming qualities at all. Both should be given serious consideration.

I totally agree Chikorita should probably be dropped to D. This isn’t HGSS where Meganium at least has Specs Petal Dance. That being said, I have a hard time seeing Chikorita below D. The only other time in the history of these lists I have ever called a starter D tier is Yellow Pikachu, which is an abomination of Arceus in viability. Not even Snivy managed D - but I can totally say Chikorita is D worthy in spite of these examples because it at least has above average stats unlike Yellow Pikachu. E is basically calling something outright unusable, and while I can totally agree Chikorita is pretty garbage, I would never put it in the realm of Wobbuffet, Unown and Ledian. By objective facts, Meganium has better stats than most of GSC’s trash - it can’t do a lot, but I’m sure as crap using it before I take Ponyta for a playthrough.
Obviously one Pokémon's ranking shouldn't directly influence another's, but there's still a major disparity between Cyndaquil and Chikorita and they shouldn't be the same rank. Especially when you consider the opportunity cost of the starter slot, which I do think is relevant to bring up.

Asking to drop Chikorita down to E was an unnecessary exaggeration on my part, but it is still an awful starter.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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Generally speaking, opportunity cost isn't really taken into account (at least when it comes to "choose between Pokemon X and Y"), nowadays, ranks are typically from the sort of "okay so I decided to use this, how does this perform", or, in other words, they assume that the player has already decided to use it

anyways, a long time ago, I made a test run with Bayleef where I kept it unevolved for Gyms 5-7, you can read more about it here. My conclusion was that you desperately need to evolve it for Gyms 5-7 if you want it to perform reasonably well there. My Meganium also wasn't particularly great at the Elite Four, though iirc someone claimed that the endgame can be improved with some sort of defensive strategies that I don't really recall myself (it might be good for the person that suggested this to elaborate more/repeat what they have said). And "defensive strategies" might not necessarily be super favorable to one's ranking, but that's a different topic.

Based purely on my own experiences, I wouldn't oppose a drop to D-tier, though it'd be interesting to hear what C-tier people have to say about this matter.
 
Hey Ryota Mitarai I generally agree with your nom (I know last time I used Growlithe without evolving until Flame Wheel I was super sad that I couldn't beat Jasmine) but I wonder, would Return over Headbutt make a difference in the lategame? We're talking about a mon that you have since level 5 so I imagine it'd start outdamaging HB in the low-mid thirties at worst. I generally replace it on my starter around Chuck but ymmv. The rest I don't have anything to comment—although I think the last two Silver fights were mixed up between the tests.

Re: Chikorita I for one struggle to see a starter below C, while it doesn't strictly suck I know it's painful that it sometimes takes too long to beat enemies (like, my female Chikorita actually lost to Whitney's Miltank through Reflect because I couldn't do enough damage to win before Rollout beat it) but judging by the placements in this test it might make sense to have no Grass-type above D—except maybe Exeggcute (C)? Never did a full run with it. I definitely think for example that its performance lategame is significantly worse than Pidgeot's or Typhlosion's, who have a recognized bad midgame; so it's up to the tester to judge what matters most. And in Chiko's case it varies greatly if you're fully evolved or not against Pryce.
Using Meganium as screens support is still possible to soften some big hits but I don't think you can claim it has good performances if it's not actually fighting stuff.
 

Ryota Mitarai

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Hey Ryota Mitarai I generally agree with your nom (I know last time I used Growlithe without evolving until Flame Wheel I was super sad that I couldn't beat Jasmine) but I wonder, would Return over Headbutt make a difference in the lategame? We're talking about a mon that you have since level 5 so I imagine it'd start outdamaging HB in the low-mid thirties at worst. I generally replace it on my starter around Chuck but ymmv. The rest I don't have anything to comment—although I think the last two Silver fights were mixed up between the tests.
I don't think Return gives you any notable advantages in the late-game or endgame as a whole. Headbutt never came close to OHKOing anything at that point and I think Return (which would probs be 10-15 points above Headbutt at that point based on intuition) wouldn't deal that much more damage to somehowly OHKO in those instances. There may be a limited amount of cases where Return picks up a 2HKO wheres Headbutt doesn't, but those would be so few that they wouldn't affect anything in the bigger picture.

except maybe Exeggcute (C)?
while it's been a while since I used it, Exeggutor has some pretty major investment issues that would comfortably place it in D-tier imo. The biggest of those is the fact that you have no workable movepool until you get Confusion, your best move being Rollout for that purpose (and Rollout on Exeggcute isn't exactly the best move for route cleaning in terms of efficiency). Doesn't help that you have a Slow growth rate to prolong the process (good thing you only have to endure 9 levels of this torture). Another issue with Exeggcute is the backtrack for the DST trick, especially if you want to bring an Exeggutor against Whitney. Once you get a Confusion Exeggutor, though, it does perform better (arguably, that's moreso the Psychic typing speaking than the Grass one, but hey, technicalities)
 
You've been asked by the thread runner to stop multiple times. So please stop. This has been a relatively constant line in this thread for a long time. Take a break and walk away for a few days.

Whether or not Espeon is any good, no one can believe 100+ items on any Pokémon is efficient at all. Eevee and the majority of its evolutions are not worth using and that many items on one Mon is just straight to E/bottom tier to me - regardless of how powerful it potentially ends up being.

Every time I pop into this thread there is bickering going on. Discuss things like adults and just chill out. This goes to everyone.
Me: Responds literal months later after my last test, and during holiday season.

You: Take a break and walk away for a few days.

:psysly:

Friendly reminder that one Pokémon’s placement should not impact another’s placement, not even a starter. I do think comparisons are inevitable when raising something to S or dropping it to E though, which is why this post has some: S is a clear cut above where most should dominate and E is a black eye that signifies a Pokémon has no redeeming qualities at all. Both should be given serious consideration.

I totally agree Chikorita should probably be dropped to D. This isn’t HGSS where Meganium at least has Specs Petal Dance. That being said, I have a hard time seeing Chikorita below D. The only other time in the history of these lists I have ever called a starter D tier is Yellow Pikachu, which is an abomination of Arceus in viability. Not even Snivy managed D - but I can totally say Chikorita is D worthy in spite of these examples because it at least has above average stats unlike Yellow Pikachu. E is basically calling something outright unusable, and while I can totally agree Chikorita is pretty garbage, I would never put it in the realm of Wobbuffet, Unown and Ledian. By objective facts, Meganium has better stats than most of GSC’s trash - it can’t do a lot, but I’m sure as crap using it before I take Ponyta for a playthrough.
Seconded. Chikorita to D. Everyone was right, Chikorita is really not fun to use.

okay so hours after making my last post, I managed to speed through Crystal (thanks 10x VBA speed). I tested an early evolution Growlithe and a "wait till level 34" Growlithe and will provide logs later in the post. To make some quick corrections from/additions to my own post:

- Arcanine's endgame performance isn't that worse compared to Typhlosion's, it still got a good amount of KOes.

- it doesn't seem like there's much of a merit to wait for Flame Wheel. While it helps you net a few KOs more quickly, Arcanine was generally safe in those matchups. On the other hand, because Growlithe was not evolved, several of its mid-game matchups relied on contested TMs or were significantly worse.

- Growlithe has one minor advantage early on, compared to Cyndaquil, which is that you can beat the rival with it if you picked Totodile

notes about the logs:
- Arcanine doesn't use Fire Blast, as my own Cyndaquil logs didn't have it either and I wanted better comparison
- the second batch of logs only includes ones where the immediate evolution one had notable advantages. For minor/no differences, those were put in the level 34 ones

Growlithe

Falkner(11): Ember 2HKOes and 3HKOes, respectively. Pidgeotto spams Gust, which is a 5HKO from full health. Pidgey likes to go for Mud-slap. You can use Bite (which still 2HKOes) to fish for a flinch and get by without accuracy drops. Reasonably good, since you outspeed both

Bugsy: Charcoal Ember go brr

Silver(18): Bite OHKOes Gastly, Charcoal Ember 2HKOes Zubat and 3HKOes Bayleef. Only issue here was Supersonic, otherwise, great matchup

Whitney(21): Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Clefairy. Miltank seems to be 4HKOed after Leer, but it is faster and 3HKOes you easily, so nope

Morty(25): Dig OHKOes Gastly and Haunter #1 while outspeeding. Haunter #2 is faster and is OHKOed on rolls by Dig. Dig 2HKOes Gengar, which is faster and 2HKOes with Dream Eater if it lands a Hypnosis.

Chuck(30): Pink Bow Headbutt 3HKOes Primeape, which is faster. Lol against Poliwrath

Jasmine(31): Charcoal Ember 2HKOes Magnemite and 3HKOes Steelix, so you need Dig to OHKO Magnemite. Steelix 2HKOes with Rock Throw

Pryce(32): Headbutt 3HKOes Seel and 4HKOes Dewgong. If Dewgong outspeeds you, it is likely to put you in a Rest loop. Piloswine is 3HKOed by Charcoal Ember. Piloswine is only a threat if you somehowly managed to KO Dewgong, as at that point, you will be in range for two Blizzards.


Silver(34): Charcoal Flame Wheel OHKOes Magnemite and Sneasel and 2HKOes the rest, with Bite leaving Haunter in red.

Clair(39): Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Dragonair. The non-Surf ones don't threaten you much without severe bad luck, so you should be able to muscle through those, at least

Silver(41): Flame Wheel OHKOes Sneasel and Magneton and 2HKOes Meganium. Bite OHKOes Haunter and OHKOes Kadabra on rolls, the latter of which doesn't threaten you. Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Golbat

Will(42): Bite 2HKOes Xatu and 3HKOes Slowbro. Psychic is generally a 3HKO on Arcanine. Jynx and Eggy are 2HKOed by Charcoal Ember/Flame Wheel. You should be able to take out 2-3 threats here without healing and flinches

Koga(43): Charcoal Ember 2HKOes Ariados, while Charcoal Flame Wheel OHKOes. Forry is OHKOed and Moth is 2HKOed by either. Crobat is 3HKOed by Flame Wheel, but Double Team makes the matchup unreliable. Muk is also not worth bothering with due to evasion and eating even Flame Wheel

Bruno(43): PB Headbutt 2HKOes Hitmonlee and 3HKOes the rest. If you have Dig, you can troll Hitmontop as well and thus take out all three Hitmons. Bite also 2HKOes Onix, but weakens you to the point that Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan may present a threat

Karen(43): Charcoal Ember 3HKOes Vileplume, while Flame Wheel 2HKOes. Bite 2HKOes Gengar and Headbutt 2HKOes Murkrow. Houndoom is 3HKOed by Headbutt, so I suspect Dig can 2HKO it (you are faster).


Arcanine

Whitney(21): Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Clefairy and 4HKOes Miltank, outspeeding both. Miltank KOes with three Rollouts in succession and 5HKOes with Stomp. If any of your first three Headbutts nets a flinch, Arcanine wins almost for sure

Morty(25): outspeeds everything. Bite 2HKOes Gengar and OHKOes the rest. Dream Eater is a 3HKO. Easy sweep

Chuck(30): outspeeds and 2HKOes Primeape with Pink Bow Headbutt. Poliwrath is 4HKOed, which 2HKOes with Surf

Jasmine(31): Charcoal Ember OHKOes Magnemite and 3HKOes Steelix, which 4HKOes with Rock Throw

Pryce(32): Headbutt 2HKOes Seel and 3HKOes Dewgong. Ember 2HKOes Piloswine

Silver(34): Charcoal Ember 3HKOes Golbat, OHKOes Magnemite, and 2HKOes Sneasel. It also gets past Meganium easily. Haunter is left in red by Bite

Silver(41): Ember 2HKOes Sneasel and Magneton, the latter of which paralyzes you. Bite OHKOes Haunter and OHKOes Kadabra on rolls, though the latter doesn't threaten you. Meganium is 3HKOed by Ember and Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOes Golbat


conclusion: while immediate evolution Arcanine (which I am using as the base of nomination after concluding that it's the better variant) has some advantages over Cyndaquil, mainly that it doesn't require Dig to KO some threats and that it has more freedom against the rival, those are somewhat minor at best, considering the Slow growth rate (which Cyndaquil doesn't have) and the backtrack that the DST trick involves, so I am going to say drop Growlithe (C) to C for sure

edit: fixed rival fights mess

thank you for reading
Why not get Fire Blast? It's not even hard to get by Clair in the game - and you can get at least 2-3 by the E4 depending on how conservative you are. Sounds kinda unfair to deprive Arcanine (and to a lesser extent, Typhlosion) of a really powerful Fire-type STAB.

C is way too low for Growlithe, IMO. Dude was one of the best Pokemon I ever tested and he rarely ever failed (only Lance, Chuck, and Clair were problematic). B sounds fine.

And this is not addressed to you specifically, but I also think Cyndaquil shouldn't be in C either - I never understood this whole ''Cynda is a TM hog'' business. Only perishable TM you need is Rollout, and it's not exactly competitive. Only a handful of Pokemon can even learn it, much less use it well or better - Sentret, Phanpy, and Miltank are all that come to mind; Geodude doesn't want it, let alone need it.

C-Tier should be for Pokemon that are average, not above-average. No one considers C a good course grade and even B itself is only seen as okay. Cyndaquil and Growlithe are above-average - flawed, but solid Pokemon, akin to Geodude (Golem) and Machop (Machamp).

I don't care if I get flamed for bringing Cynda back up, Turdterra already dared me a while back and I now realize the TM dependence argument was always hooey.
 
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Me: Responds literal months later after my last test.

You: Take a break and walk away for a few days.



Seconded. Chikorita to D. Everyone was right, Chikorita is really not fun to use.



Why not get Fire Blast? It's not even hard to get by Clair in the game - and you can get at least 2-3 by the E4 depending on how conservative you are. Sounds kinda unfair to deprive Arcanine (and to a lesser extent, Typhlosion) of a really powerful Fire-type STAB.

C is way too low for Growlithe, IMO. Dude was one of the best Pokemon I ever tested and he rarely ever failed (only Lance, Chuck, and Clair were problematic). B sounds fine.

And this is not addressed to you specifically, but I also think Cyndaquil shouldn't be in C either - I never understood this whole ''Cynda is a TM hog'' business. Only perishable TM you need is Rollout, and it's not exactly competitive. Only a handful of Pokemon can even learn it, much less use it well or better - Sentret, Phanpy, and Miltank are all that come to mind; Geodude doesn't want it, let alone need it.
Cyndaquil is blacklisted. Seems you just decide to ignore every rule I make. I will be ignoring you from hereon since all you do it try to start things and when told to stop, you go harder. I will still count your current tests and future ones you decide to do, but I will no longer be interacting with you from hereon.

Growlithe has a case for C as much as it had a case for B. Fire Blast is costly and not really worth it by Gym 7 when most will have the funds normally to get one of those.
 
Blacklisted because you chose to downplay a Pokemon irrationally, instead of actually making convincing counterarguments.

(And you dared me to mention Cyndaquil, remember?).

Not really worth it by Gym 7, yes, but the E4 is a different story. I guess the E4 doesn't matter now :psysad:
 
-Irrational
-Most people agree Cyndaquil is bad, thus making it a rational line of thought
-?????
Not a single part of this comment makes sense.

Most people do not agree Cynda is bad, just you and Turdterra. Ironically, even the C-Tier description disagrees with you.

''Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.''

The reasoning and testing you demonstrated were also highly flawed. Imagine not teaching Fire Blast to Typhlosion by the E4 or Sunny Day, and imagine calling him a TM hog when he...was not (Rollout is the only single-use TM he needs and not very competitive).
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Okay here's something productive to do.

The following Pokémon should be Untiered since I noticed they weren't listed.

Celebi (Crystal Virtual Console I think?)
Larvitar
Misdreavus
Murkrow
Pikachu
Sneasel (Gold/Silver)
Slugma

There's more but I don't feel like digging through the Dex right now.

Also, do I actually have to test Smeargle or can we just throw it in E? Sketch is potentially hilarious, but it requires so much planning that you shouldn't bother unless you're doing some kind of meme run or Nuzlocke. Plus its stats are still garbage (20/20/75 offenses lol).
 
Sometimes, i just blame the game design for making Chikorita and other Grass-types look terrible. Seriously, a couple of major fights in this game are against Grass-Types from start to finish, from first two gyms, to Morty, to Rival (he gets its first non-grass resist around post-Gym 7, at a point where you face so many Poison, even though they're irrelevant), to even in late game, like the Champion literally has 6 Flying-Types.

As for Growlithe, since Arcanine's Ember was strong enough to 1HKO Jasmine's Magnemite, its better to evolve it sooner and not wait for Flame Wheel, preferably post-Sudowoodo unless you want to backtrack a very long way to have Arcanine for Whitney. Though, this would mean it may need Fire Blast TM more than Typhlosion unless you like using Ember in the late game. Nevertheless, i can see a case of C-tier as well

Also, do I actually have to test Smeargle or can we just throw it in E? Sketch is potentially hilarious, but it requires so much planning that you shouldn't bother unless you're doing some kind of meme run or Nuzlocke. Plus its stats are still garbage (20/20/75 offenses lol).
Smeargle is obviously E, and just like you said, its stats are garbage and Sketch requires planning, so you don't have to test it unless you think there's actually something that made it not E Tier

Also, been away for a while, and i ended up making a bunch of test logs in Platinum in these past couple of months, like i did 8 or 9 test runs in that game as of now, lol.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
The following Pokémon should be Untiered since I noticed they weren't listed.
I did this a long time ago, so I will just c/p the list

Grimer
Diglett
Kangaskhan
Murkrow
Houndour
Mr. Mime
Slugma
Misdreavus
Porygon
Chansey
Omanyte
Kabuto
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Bulbasaur
Charmander
Squirtle
Articuno
Zapdos
Moltres
Larvitar
Mewtwo
Mew
Celebi


ordered by dex order

for the purposes of that list, a Pokemon is considered Untiered if it's not available in all three games. So Sneasel (GS) wouldn't be untiered (since you can get a Sneasel in Crystal), otherwise you need things like Mareep (C) and Girafarig (C) as well. On the other hand, Slugma is Untiered, since it's not available in all three games

Also, do I actually have to test Smeargle or can we just throw it in E? Sketch is potentially hilarious, but it requires so much planning that you shouldn't bother unless you're doing some kind of meme run or Nuzlocke. Plus its stats are still garbage (20/20/75 offenses lol).
I have never posted logs about it, but there's a way to use Smeargle. You basically need to Sketch Lock-On from a level 27 Magnemite, Guillotine from level 31 Pinsir and Spore from a level 25 Paras/level 28 Parasect. You can then use this combo to basically OHKO anything that's not a higher level than you relatively safely.

With that said, this requires insane preparations and Guillotine has only 5 PP, meaning you have to heal Smeargle after virtually every trainer. In addition, you need to basically solo run with it in order to outlevel the endgame opponents. So yeah, this is an obvious E-tier, though at least it will make for an interesting write-up (also, you can then make a video titled "CAN YOU BEAT CRYSTAL USING ONLY SMEARGLE").
 

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