GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
Me: Responds literal months later after my last test, and during holiday season.

You: Take a break and walk away for a few days.

:psysly:
I mean, I haven't had to do anything in this thread until you reappeared... Since you have come back I've been contacted by a number of users.

Its very clear to me that several of you don't see eye to eye on anything - This is a tier list for a 20 year old game. For heavens sake just chill out. The entire point of these threads is to discuss things. Its clear that certain mons/users have weightings in certain directions and we absolutely cannot play favourites. If that was the case Shuckle would be S tier in my eyes - but that's totally unreasonable. I understand it comes underlevelled, undermoved and fairly late. If 10 people are having a differing, lower/higher opinion compared to you then you either need to suck it up or re-access how you are testing compared to others. By all means, have spirited discussions (that don't devolve into shit slinging), but when you're outnumbered by a significant margin, it's a lost cause. Move onto another mon.

You've been told on multiple occasions (some of which by mods) - Cyndaquil isn't currently being discussed. Leave it alone. Baiting Turdterra while you two are not agreeing is only serving to worsen your cause for nominations. I have no idea why you would do that.
 

Karxrida

Eventide (art by @kzhjp)
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
So yeah, this is an obvious E-tier, though at least it will make for an interesting write-up (also, you can then make a video titled "CAN YOU BEAT CRYSTAL USING ONLY SMEARGLE").
Dammit, now I want to know if you actually can. Seems like a legit fun video idea because of Sketch.

To make this not a one-liner:

1672370857541.png

Yanma -> E

Another "I don't want to test this but on paper it has nothing of value" nom. Yanma is a Bug/Flying type with awful stats, a super shitty movepool (I would like to highlight that its only STAB option in GS is Leech Life via breeding), and only available as a stupidly rare 1% encounter. There's Sonicboom I guess, but the move is not available early enough to matter. The best use case I can think of for Yanma is PP stalling with Double Team + Detect, but that's the opposite of efficient.
 
Last edited:
Dammit, now I want to know if you actually can. Seems like a legit fun video idea because of Sketch.

To make this not a one-liner:

View attachment 478914
Yanma -> E

Another "I don't want to test this but on paper is has nothing of value" nom. Yanma is a Bug/Flying type with awful stats, a super shitty movepool (I would like to highlight that its only STAB option in GS is Leech Life via breeding), and only available as a stupidly rare 1% encounter. There's Sonicboom I guess, but the move is not available early enough to matter. The best use case I can think of for Yanma is PP stalling with Double Team + Detect, but that's the opposite of efficient.
Did you even test Yanma?
 
So are we going to tier any new Pokemon? Multiple people have tested Geodude but he has not been placed yet. Ditto for Sentret.

Meanwhile, I hope to test Mankey, Slowking, and Spearow. I recognize Spearow has already been tested, but I'm just skeptical they belong in A.
 
Finally did my run with Haunter/Poliwhirl/Corsola/Farfetch'd. Nothing important to note, all mons were fairly bad (D-rank worthy) and I c/ped for earlier battles of Poliwhirl and Haunter. Here are the logs :

Falkner (11) : Nop

Bugsy (17/18) : Beating the cocoons takes forever as it will require around 20 licks but isn't problematic as Metapod can't hurt and Kakuna does 1 damage with Poison Sting. Scyther is surprisngly good as Curse and 3 Licks koes it while Gastly was able to take 3 Fury Cutter even after Curse, surviving with 3 HP. Great matchup

Rival (18) : 2HKO Gastly with Lick, avoid Zubat as it has Bite and you can Curse Sleep Bayleef. Bayleef may be sometimes able to take down Gastly if it was previously hiy by Lick but taking down 1 mon and severly harming the biggest threat is great.

Whitney (21) : Can Curse Miltank and try to put it asleep as it takes 2 Rollout.

Silver (22/23) : Can beat Bayleef, 3HKOing with Night Shade and 2HKO Magnemite with it. Curse from Haunter will be too annoying and Zubat uses Bite.

Morty (25) : Night Shade 2HKOes Gastly and 3HKOes Haunter. Haunter can defeat both Haunter, outspeeding and 2HKOing after Curse the former without taking damages while outspeeding and 2HKOing the latter. Gengar OHKOes with Shadow Ball.

Chuck (31) : Primeape can't hit Haunter. Poliwrath 2HKOes with Surf while Night Shade is only a 4HKO. It's possible to win with Hypnosis+Curse but Chuck has a Full Heal. At least, Haunter can weaken a bit the Poliwrath and then Curse.

Jasmine (31) : Can 2HKO a Magnemite with Night Shade while it uses Thunderbolt and then Curse on STeelix. Won't achieve much else.

Pryce (32) : Shadow Ball 2HKOes Seel and 3HKOes Dewgong, outspeeding even after speed drop. Haunter can then Curse on Piloswine.

Rival (33) : Shadow Ball 3HKOes Golbat and OHKOes Haunter. Meganium can be muscled through. Magnemite is 2HKOed by Night Shade but it's not advicable to try it as it will paralyse.

Clair (38) : ST Shadow Ball is a range for the 2HKO on Dragonair which 3HKOes back. Outside of defeating at most a Dragonair (if it doesn't get paralysed) or Cursing on Kingdra, Haunter won't achieve much.

Rival (40) : Shadow Ball OHKOes Kadabra and Haunter. Meganium is 4HKOed and doesn't do enough back to kill. It's possible to try to use Hypnosis+Dream Eater on Golbat but it requires luck.

Will (41) : Outspeed and OHKO Jynx with Shadow Ball. Everything OHKOes with Psychic. It's possible to try to use Hypnosis to then 2HKO Xatus with Shadow Ball but it's risky.

Koga (41) : Shadow Ball 3HKOes Ariados and 5HKOes Muk. They can't threaten Haunter so it should be able to beat both. Avoid the rest.

Bruno (41) : Avoid Hitmontop. 3HKO Chan and 2HKO Lee with Shadow Ball and then Curse on Machamp. It's also possible to 2HKO Machamp with Dream Eater and it only 2HKOes with Rock Slide (or may use Foresight+Cross Chop) but it's not reliable.

Karen (41) : Can Curse on Umbreon. Otherwise, ST Shadow Ball 4HKOes Vileplume while it 4HKOes back.

Lance (41) : Can Curse on Dragonite.


Falkner (11) : Pidgey is beaten as it's 4HKOed by Bubble. Pidgeotto is too much tho, it 4HKOes with Gust and is like 10HKOed.

Bugsy (17/18) : It 3HKOes the cocoons but Scyther is obviously going to win easily against it.

Rival (18) : 3HKO Gastly and 4HKO Zubat, outspeeding them.

Whitney (21) : Clefairy isn't even a guaranteed win as it's 6HKOed.

Rival (22) : Beats Haunter and Zubat.

Morty (25) : Surf OHKOes Gastly and Surf in Rain OHKOes everything but Gengar that is 2HKOed. Only Gengar outspeeds and as such with a Bitter Berry, it should be a win like 70% of the time (Gengar likes to use Mean Look for some reasons). Really cool considering it's Morty .

Chuck (30) : Outspeed and 2HKO Primeape with MW Surf. Avoid Poliwrath.

Jasmine (30) : Avoid Magnemite as Surf only 2HKOes. MW Surf 2HKOes Steelix.

Pryce (31) : PB Strength 2HKOes Seel and Surf 2HKOes Piloswine. Avoid Dewgong as PB Strength only 4HKOes and it can either outall with Rest or damage Poliwhirl enough so that Piloswine can finish it.

Rival (33) : Rain Dance Surf 2HKOes Golbat, Sneasel and Haunter while Magnemite is OHKOed. Bitter Berry helps setting up on Golbat. Avoid Meganium.

Clair (38) : NVI Ice Punch 2HKOes Dragonair. Dragon Breath 4HKOes Poliwrath while Thunderbolt does 2/3. Assuming it doesn't get paralysed, Poliwrath can defeat the non-Thunderbolt Dragonair. Kingdra is too much.

Rival (40) : Poliwhirl outspeeds everything. MW Surf in Rain 2HKOes Sneasel and Golbat while Kadabra and Haunter are OHKOed. Magneton is a range for the OHKO with Mystic Water. Thus, Poliwhirl should beat Sneasel, Golbat, Kadabra, Haunter and sometimes Magneton.

Will (41) : Outspeed and 2HKO Xatu #1 with NMI Ice Punch while leaving a Psychic. Xatu #2 is a range for the 2HKO. Exeggutor is also a range for the 2HKO and will win if it uses Leech Seed. Alternatively, it's possible to outspeed and 2HKO Jynx with PB Strength. Avoid Slowbro.

Koga (41) : MW Surf 2HKOes Ariados and 3HKOes Venomoth. Forretress is 3HKOed but may use Explosion and Poliwhirl will be weakened by Ariados/Venomoth by then.

Bruno (41) : 1 MW Surf + 2 Rain Surf (use Rain Dance on Dig turn) is enough to take down Hitmontop. Also beats Onix. Can't defeat anything else.

Karen (41) : Surf 2HKOes Gengar after Curse. MW Surf 2HKOes Murkrow, which is outsped. Avoid the rest.

Lance (41) : NVI Ice Punch 2HKOes lvl 47 Dragonite. Assuming it doesn't get paralyzed, Poliwhirl can defeat the Blizzard Dragonite, outspeeding while barely living an Hyper Beam. Can't beat Aero/Charizard 1v1 as Wing Attack/Flamethrower + Hyper Beam 2HKOes.


Rival (23) : Surf 2HKOes Haunter, Magnemite and Zubar. Corsola can defeat Haunter and Magnemite as it takes Thundershock even after Curse. It's possible to beat Zubat afterwards but it outspeeds,is only 2HKOed and can hax between Confuse Ray and Bite.

Morty (25) : Surf OHKOes Gastly and Haunter (after Curse) but everything outspeeds. Corsola can beat Gastly/Haunter#1 + Haunter #2, taking no damage from the former while 2HKOing the latter as Night Shade only 3HKOes. Gengar is too much.

Chuck (31) : 2HKOes Primeape while barely living 2 Karate Chop. Avoid Poliwrath.

Jasmine (31) : Surf 2HKOes Magnemite so avoid them. MW Surf 2HKOes Steelix through Sunny Day while Corsola takes an Iron Tail.

Pryce (31) : Curlout 3HKOes Seel, the4th hit OHKOes Dewgong and the 5th hit OHKOes Piloswine. Nothing threatens Corsola so it's not hard to restart and use Rollout again.
Alternatively, Rain Dance MW Surf 3HKOes Seel and 2HKOes Piloswine.

Rival (33) : MW Surf OHKOes Magnemite and 2HKOes Golbat, Haunter and Sneasel. As long as Golbat doesn't hax, Corsola should beat these 4.

Clair (37) : Mirror Coat OHKOes Kingdra.

Rival (40) : MW Surf 2HKOes Sneasel, Haunter, Golbat and Kadabra. Golbat may be annoying due to Bite and Confuse Ray but Corsola should still defeat these 4. Magneton can get OHKOed by Mirror Coat when it uses Thundershock but it's better to avoid it anyway as it does nearly half and it may use Thunder Wave.

Will (40) : MW Surf 2HKOes Xatu but Corsola gets 3HKOed by Psychic and confusion is annoying. Outside of using Mirror Coat on Psychic, it will be hard for Corsola to achieve more than one ko.

Koga (40) : Avoid Ariados due to Giga Drain. MW Surf 3HKOes Venomoth and is a range for the 2HKO on Forretress. Venomoth is a bit annoying due to Toxic, meaning Corsola can only defeat one of Forretress or Venomoth. Muk is technically feasible but there is too much hax involved.

Bruno (40) : Beats Onix.

Karen (40) : Surf 2HKOes Gengar after Curse. You can't use Mirror Coat on Houndoom as it has Roar. Surf 2HKOes Murkrow. Crunch from Houndoom 2HKOes but it often goes for Roar and gets 2HKOed by Surf.

Lance (41) : 2HKOes Aero with Surf, while only getting 3HKOed by Rock Slide. Can also Mirror Coat Outrage from lvl 50 Dragonite.


Rival (23) : Peck 2HKOes Haunter (after Curse) and Zubat while Bayleef is 3HKOed. Farfetch'd easilydefeats these 3, and just has to avoid Magnemite.

Morty (25) : Farfetch'd outspeeds Gastly and Haunter #1 is a speed tie. Set up 3 SD and everything will be OHKOed by Peck (Gengar lives in red after 2 SD). With a MintBerry, assuming Farfetch'd gets the speed tie, it's a solid win as Haunter #2 can't do anything. If Haunter #1 gets the tie, it requires to hit 2 Hypnosis to defeat Farfetch'd.
Farfetch'd is really favoured here but it involves luck.

Chuck (31) : It requires 3 SD to OHKO Poliwrath with Peck. Primeape is a speed tie and actually does damages with Fury Swipes and Karate Chop and may kill Farfetch'd. Poliwrath is then OHKOed by Peck.
A sweep is feasible but it's not guaranteed.

Jasmine (31) : Nop.

Pryce (31) : Farfetch'd needs 2 SD and 1 Agility to outspeed and OHKO everything. Assuming it doesn't get crited or an attack drop from Aurora Beam, it's a win. Assuming an Aurora Beam drops the attack, it's a range for taking another one while using SD.
Much like Morty and Chuck, Farfetch'd is favoured to win here but it's not guaranteed.

Rival (33) : It requires 2 SD and an Agility to sweep the team. Golbat outspeeds so don't bother setting up on it nor trying to defeat it. Meganium has Body Slam so it's better to avoid setting up on it. Sneaselis the best target to setup on.

Clair (38) : Set up 3 SD and an Agility on Dragonair and then heal. Assuming Farfetch'd doesn't get paralysed, it should sweep as Drgonair only 4HKOes.

Rival (40) : Set up 3 SD and one agility and PB Headbutt OHKOes everything. It's not hard to setup on Sneasel so it's a clean win for Farfetch'd here.

Will (40) : Xatu outspeeding, Psychic 2HKOing and confusion makes setting up nearly impossible. Even defeating Exeggutor 1v1 is a hard task because it's a 50/50 between Psychic and Reflect as Fly only 2HKOes (assuming no Reflect).

Koga (40) : Set up 3SD and 1 Agility and sweep from here. Only Forretress is 2HKOed by Return but it never goes for Explosion first turn.

Bruno (41) : You can't set up on Hitmontop as Onix will come next. Farfetch'd can setup 1 SD and Agility against Hitmonchan and then OHKO Chan/Lee and Machamp with SP Fly.

Karen (41) : You can't set up on Umbreon due to Sand Attack/Confuse Ray. Thus, Farfetch'd has to setup on Murkrow. 2 Feint Attack + Quick Attack koes so Farfetch'd has to heal. From there, Murkrow and Houndoom are OHKOed by PB Return and Vileplume by Fly.

Lance (41) : Nop, everything is too fast, bulky and strong.


Now, onto the rank :

Haunter

This is fine in D-rank. It's obviously not good (and it's the shame it doesn't get elementary punch as otherwise it would probably be B-tier) but still has a few use. It wins against Bugsy as a Gastly and can get a few koes here and here. It's never going to win any major battle by itself but outside of Jasmine, Haunter is able most of the time to take down a few foe. While it didn't sweep taking down the Seel line is always good against Pryce or both Haunter against Morty for example is always positive. Curse is pretty good on something fast like Haunter and has some uses against aces li,e Steelix, Kingdra, Piloswine and Umbreon. So yeah, D-rank, it has enough uses to prevent it from going to E-tier.

Poliwhirl

This should be D-tier as well. An unevolved mon is obviously never good but it still has some uses to the point you can't consider E-tier for it. Having a strong performance against Morty is great and it has a use in almost every major battle, defeating at least a foe or Steelix in the case of Jasmine or Seel+Piloswine against Pryce. The late game was honestly better than expected and I didn't think that Poliwhirl could get a ko in each battle from Clair onward. Med Slow growth rate is also cool as training the team was fairly annoying. All in all, Poliwhirl had some use in nearly every battle and contribute to the point, it doesn't deserve to be E-tier.

Corsola

Another easy D-tier. While it wasn't good, Corsola had enough uses to prevent it from going to the worst tier. Fast growth rate and immediate access to Surf upon catching is truely good. Corsola has a few uses and can get kos here and here thanks to its water-type. It performs fairly ell against Morty and Jasmine and can win against Pryce with Curlout. While its late performance was mostly bad, Mirror Coat was great to ko Kingdra and lvl 50 Dragonite and it was able to reasonnably get a ko in each battle. So yeah, D-tier looks fine, it's useful enough not to be E-tier.

Farfetch'd

I'll go for D-tier on it as well. Farfetch'd is better on paper than in practise. Outside of Koga, Farfetch'd doesn't have a true reliable win. Even though it can win most of the time, Morty, Chuck and Pryce required luck. Against Clair, Bruno and Karen, a Full Restore was needed, not to mention that you can only set up against a specific non-lead mon in the case of Bruno and Karen. In other battles (Jasmine, Will and Lance), Farfetch'd had almost no use, struggling to even defeat 1v1 Exeggutor from Will. I also want to mention that training Farfetch'd isn't an easy task as before getting Fly, it has to rely on the unaccurate/unreliable Fury Attack and the weak Peck. Between inconsistency and needing healing, Farfetch'd feels more like a D-tier mon honestly.

Next run is going to be : Slowbro, Weepingbell, Koffing (unevolved) and Voltorb.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
Hey there, everyone. I haven’t visited one of these threads since that one time I offered to contribute to the Black & White list (I never ended up finishing it for several reasons I won’t dive into here. This time, I was honestly just curious about game mechanics moreso than playing a test run, as I’ve started my next semester of classes recently.

My main question I was wondering about was about some of this game’s top tier options. GSC has some of the most fascinating quirks of any main series game out there, with the different EVs and unique encounter tables and stuff like that. With this in mind, why are there so few top-tiers currently, and especially why are Kadabra and Alakazam held to such high regards?

Like, I get they have the famous elemental punches in this game, and generally speaking losing matchups are still are for the evolution line… but being the only S-Tiers? Alakazam and even Kadabra being in S isn’t what I’m confused about, so much as the lack of competition. I’m just fascinated one what you guys may have found during test runs to warrant such a decision, especially when Pokémon like Totodile (with Ice Punch) and Magmar can perform similar feats with their own advantages over Abra’s evolutions due to different typing and more bulk.

Editing to prevent double posting: I know what I said earlier about me starting classes again, but since GSC is generally a “smaller” game, and since I have Crystal on my 3DS, I wouldn’t be opposed to trying a test run again in the near future if this thread remains active for that long. I can’t promise I would be available to make consistent game progress, but I have been looking for an excuse to use a certain Fire-Type not named Magmar after learning something cool about it not too long ago.
 
Last edited:
Hey there, everyone. I haven’t visited one of these threads since that one time I offered to contribute to the Black & White list (I never ended up finishing it for several reasons I won’t dive into here. This time, I was honestly just curious about game mechanics moreso than playing a test run, as I’ve started my next semester of classes recently.

My main question I was wondering about was about some of this game’s top tier options. GSC has some of the most fascinating quirks of any main series game out there, with the different EVs and unique encounter tables and stuff like that. With this in mind, why are there so few top-tiers currently, and especially why are Kadabra and Alakazam held to such high regards?

Like, I get they have the famous elemental punches in this game, and generally speaking losing matchups are still are for the evolution line… but being the only S-Tiers? Alakazam and even Kadabra being in S isn’t what I’m confused about, so much as the lack of competition. I’m just fascinated one what you guys may have found during test runs to warrant such a decision, especially when Pokémon like Totodile (with Ice Punch) and Magmar can perform similar feats with their own advantages over Abra’s evolutions due to different typing and more bulk.

Editing to prevent double posting: I know what I said earlier about me starting classes again, but since GSC is generally a “smaller” game, and since I have Crystal on my 3DS, I wouldn’t be opposed to trying a test run again in the near future if this thread remains active for that long. I can’t promise I would be available to make consistent game progress, but I have been looking for an excuse to use a certain Fire-Type not named Magmar after learning something cool about it not too long ago.
Kadabra and especially Alakazam are held to such high regards because they almost walk through the game. Outside of Umbreon and Houndoom from Karen, Alakazam just wins against everything. Every Gym Leader, including Clair is an easy win with everything being either OHKOed or 2HKOed. It's pretty much the same for the E4 outside of Karen, where it still defeats 3 mons. Lance is a totally swept and outside of Starmie (which relies on expensive and unaccurate moves), nothing other than Alakazam can achieve that. Kadabra is a bit worse as it can't take Iron Tail from Steelix, Hyper Beam from Kingdra and doesn't always outspeed Crobat and Aero from Koga and Lance respectively. Still, being able to defeat Whitney, Morty, Chuck, Pryce, Will, Koga, Bruno while doing a lot against Jasmine, Clair and taking down 5 mons from Lance is really impressive. Alakazam is clearly broken in the game and Kadabra is clearly above everything else, only suffering from a few loses in difficult fights where it still contributes heavily (taking down 5 mons from Lance and the 3 Dragonair from Clair is incredible). Also, the Abra line is really easy to train, Abra learns the elementary punches, the TMs are really cheap and it's all it needs to succeed.

As for comparisons with Totodile and Magmar, I'd say the difference in power, speed, typing and not getting all elementary punch is pretty huge. For instance, Croconaw has to rely on Fury Cutter for Whitney while Kadabra/Alakazam 2HKO Miltank with Psybeam. Psychic-typing helps a lot for Chuck, Koga and Bruno, which can't all be defeated by Feraligatr/Magmar. Difference in power is pretty noticable between Feraligatr and Kadabra/Alakazam, Jasmine's Magnemite aren't always OHKOed by Surf (while Fire Punch OHKOes), Lance's Dragonite aren't OHKOed by Ice Punch etc. Magmar's fire-type is also a disadvantage in Clair's and Lance's fight, 2 important battles. Overall, I'd say that Totodile and Magmar are the 3rd and 4th best mon (with Spearow being the close 5th) but aren't good enough for S-tier. They are incredibly consistent Pokemon throughout the game but don't break the game like Alakazam nor nearly wins in every battle like Kadabra. Outside of Whitney, Clair and Lance (and somewhat Karen), the game is pretty easy which explains why Pokemon aren't ranked as highly as in other gens.

I used these mons and here are the links to my posts :
Totodile, Magmar, Kadabra, Alakazam

Good luck with your future runs !

Also, I finished my run. As I didn't need Koffing from Clair onward (because I had previous logs of Weezing), Dodrio was used instead. Here are the logs :

Rival (23) : Rollout 2HKOes Haunter after Curse and then Magnemite. Zubat then comes, outspeeds and koes. Alternatively, Koffing can defeat Haunter with 2 Rollout, switch out and 2HKO Bayleef with Sludge, while only being 6HKOed by Razor Leaf in exchange.

Morty (25) : Rollout 2HKOes Gastly and will then OHKO the rest. Outside of a miss or double Hypnosis, Koffing should win here.

Chuck (30) : Sluge Bomb 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath which outspeeds and 2HKOes back with Surf. As such, Koffing can beat Primeape and then Self-Destruct to OHKO Poliwrath.

Jasmine (31) : Koffing outspeeds everything. Fire Blast OHKOes Magnemite and 2HKOes Steelix, which can't OHKO with Iron Tail. A single miss may ruin this strategy tho.

Pryce (31) : 2HKOes Seel and 3HKOes Dewgong with Sludge Bomb while Self-Destruct OHKOes Piloswine. Rollout 3HKOes Seel and OHKOes Dewgong. While the 5th hit OHKOes Piloswine, it will outspeed after Icy Wind and ko with Blizzard. Alternatively, it's possible to 2HKO Seel, flee Dewgong and then outspeed and OHKO Piloswine with Self-Destruct.

Rival (33) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Sneasel and Meganium.

Clair (38) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Dragonair while special attacks 4HKO. With a PRZCureBerry, Weezing can beat the 3 Dragonair if it manages to attack 3 turns while para'd. Kingdra outspeeds, is only 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb and 2HKOes with Surf. Alternatively, it's possible to beat a Dragonair with a PRZCureBerry and then use Self-Destruct on Kingdra but it's not reliable as it goes for Smokescreen.

Rival (40) : PB Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Sneasel and Meganium while Kadabra is OHKOed. Magneton and Haunter (after Curse) are OHKOed by Fire Blast. Thunder only 2HKOes Golbat which is impossible to get through with Confuse Ray.

Will (40) : nop, everything OHKOes with Psychic and Exeggutor lives a Sludge Bomb.

Koga (40) : OHKOes Ariados and Foretress with Fire Blast. Venomoth outspeeds and 2HKOes with Psychic and is only 2HKOed by Fire Blast. It's also possible to use Self-Destruct to ko Muk.

Bruno (41) : PB Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Hitmontop, even though it outspeeds and does a lot with Dig. Weezing can then 2HKO Hitmonchan, barely living 2 Fire Punch and then use Self-Destruct to ko Machamp.

Karen (41) : PB Self-Destruct OHKOes Umbreon (it's outsped). Alternatively, Weezing can take down Vileplume+Murkrow with a PRZCureBerry, 2HKOing Vileplume with Sludge Bomb+Fire Blast and Murkrow with Sludge Bomb but it absolutely needs to hit.

Lance (41): Can explode on Gyarados/lvl 47 Dnite/Charizard. Level 50 Dragonite is a range and Aerodactyl defeats Weezing.


Rival (23) : Rollout 3HKOes Haunter after Curse and then 2HKOes Magnemite, barely living Curse+Lick+SonicBoom. Rollout also 3HKOes Zubat. Self-Destruct puts Bayleef in red.

Morty(25) : Voltorb outspeeds everything. Assuming it hits, Rollout 2HKOes Gastly after Curse and Haunter #1 and OHKOes Gengar. Then, Haunter #2 finishes Voltorb. A single miss ruins this strategy tho.

Chuck (30) : Magnet Thunder 2HKOes Primeape and OHKOes Poliwrath. Solid win.

Jasmine (30) : Nop, it takes too much time to defeat Magnemite and Steelix does too much damages to be dealt with Sonic Boom.

Pryce (31) : Rollout 3HKOes Seel and then 2HKOes Piloswine. From there, Electrode can set up Rain Dance and OHKO Dewgong with Thunder. If you're not feeling like it, it's always possible to just use ThunderDance on the Seel line.

Rival (33) : Thunder OHKOes Golbat and Haunter while Sneasel is 2HKOed. Using Rain Dance on Golbat may be annying due to Confuse Ray. Avoid Meganium and Magneton might be annoying.

Clair (38) : Self-Destruct OHKOes Dragonair. Otherwise, you can try to hit Thunder to then OHKO Kingdra with Self-Destruct. Magnet Thunder 2HKOes Kingdra but it 2HKOes with Surf and has to go for Smokescreen to be defeated.

Rival (40) : Magnet Thunder OHKOes Sneasel, Kadabra, Haunter and Golbat. They don't threaten so you can set up Rain Dance multiple times. Avoid Magneton and Meganium.

Will (40) : Equip BitterBerry. Rain Dance on Xatu #1. Thunder will OHKO Slowbro and both Xatu. Avoid the rest.

Koga (40) : Magnet Thunder 2HKOes the bugs, OHKOes Crobat (which is outsped) and 3HKOes Muk. Avoid Muk as Sludge Bomb does a lot but Eletrode has no troubles taking down the rest of the team.

Bruno (40) : Magnet Thunder 2HKOes the hitmon but it's hard to set up. Electrode won't be able to defeat more than one of Chan or Top.

Karen (41) : Magnet Thunder 3HKOes Umbreon and OHKOes Murkrow and Gengar after Curse. It's also possible to use Self-Destruct on Houndoom.

Lance (41) : Magnet Thunder OHKOes Gyarados, Charizard and Aerodactyl and all are outsped.


Rival (23) : Can get past Bayleef with Poison Powder and loses to the rest (Sonic Boom from Magnemite does too much).

Morty (25) : Can 2HKO Gastly or 3HKO Haunter #1 after Curse but won't do much else and even then, Haunter can put asleep.

Chuck (30) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Poliwrath only 4HKOes with DynamicPunch (and needs to hit). Sleep Powder helps a bit here but Weepingbell is heavily favoured to win.

Jasmine (31) : Nop.

Pryce (31) : Weepinbell outspeeds everything. PB Sludge Bomb OHKOes Seel and 2HKOes Dewgong while Piloswine is 3HKOed by Vine Whip. Weepingbell can take an Aurora Beam so it should beat the Seel line and weaken Piloswine afterwards.

Rival (33) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Sneasel and is a range for the OHKO on Meganium.

Clair (38) : Equip PRZCureBerry. Can defeat the non-Ice Beam Dragonairs, 2HKOing with Sludge Bomb while taking 3 Dragon Breath.

Rival (40) : OHKOes Sneasel, Meganium and Kadabra with PB Sludge Bomb.

Will (40) : It's a range to OHKO Exeggutorwith PB Sludge Bomb. Avoid the rest.

Koga (40) : Nop.

Bruno (40) : Everything outspeeds seemingly. Hitmon are 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb and Onix is OHKOed by Vine Whip. As such, Weepingbell can only defeat one hitmon + Onix as it takes too much from each move.

Karen (40) : Beats Murkrow 1v1, taking 2 Feint Attack while 2HKOing with Sludge Bomb. Also 3HKOes Vileplume with Sludge Bomb while taking nothing from it.

Lance (40) : PB Sludge Bomb doesn't 2HKO Gyarados which 2HKOes with Surf + Hyper Beam.

Chuck (30) : Confusion 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Slowbro easily takes hits and should win barring major unluck.

Jasmine (31) : Outspeed and OHKO everything with MW Surf.

Pryce (32) : Rain Dance MW Surf 2HKOes Seel and 3HKOes Dewgong (meaning it can't outstall with Rest). Piloswine is OHKOed by Surf.

Rival (33) : 2HKOes Golbat with Surf. Outspeed and OHKO Magnemite with Surf. 2HKOes Sneasel. Haunter will then OHKO with Shadow Ball. The problem is that Golbat may flinch or confusion may hit, which makes things harder.

Clair (38) : 2HKOes Dragonair with Ice Punch. Slowbro has the bulk to take down the non-Thunderbolt Dragonairs, taking 3 Dragon Breath. Avoid Kingdra

Rival (40) : MW Surf OHKOes Sneasel, Kadabra (Magneton) and Haunter while Golbat is 2HKOed. It's possible to defeat Magneton but it's better to avoid it as Thundershock does a third and Golbat may luck to the point Slowbro won't be able to 5 mons.

Will (40) : Ice Punch 2HKOes Xatus and Exeggutor while Jynx is 2HKOed by MW Surf. The thing is that Xatu may hax and Slowbro is going to get whittled down pretty easily between multiple hits and Leech Seed from Exeggutor. Realistically, it won't be able to defeat more than 2/3 mon at best.

Koga (40) : Surf 2HKOes the bugs but it's better to avoid Foretress as it outspeeds and may use Explosion. Muk is 3HKOed by Surf and Crobat is 2HKOed by Confusion. Slowbro will struggle to defeat more than one of them tho due to the hax involved.

Bruno (41) : Confusion 2HKOes the hitmon while Machamp is 3HKOed by it. Onix is OHKOed by Surf. Slowbro can't defeat more than 2 Hitmon+ Onix as ThunderPunch actually does solid damages. Otherwise, it's possible to 1v1 Machamp, as it only 5HKOes with Rock Slide but it assumes no flinch/crit.

Karen (41) : Surf OHKOes Gengar after Curse. Avoid the rest, Murkrow 2HKOes with Feint Attack, Vileplume 2HKOes with Petal Dance, Houndoom OHKOes with Crunch.

Lance (41) : Can take down the Blizzard Dragonite, 2HKOing with Ice Punch. Can also beat the lvl 50 Dragonite if it goes for Safeguard, as Outrage 2HKOes. MW Surf also OHKOes both Charizard and Aerodactyl so it can beat both.


Got to level 38 by Rival.

Rival (38) : SB Drill Peck OHKOes Sneasel, Meganium, Kadabra and Haunter while Golbat is 2HKOed. Outside of Magneton, Dodrio should beat the whole team.

Will (40) : Drill Peck 2HKOes Xatus and OHKOes Jynx and Exeggutor. With a MintBerry, Dodrio can hope to defeat Xatu #1, Jynx, Exeggutor and has great odds to defeat Xatu #2 if the first one didn't use Psychic or if it doesn't hit itself with confusion. Avoid Slowbro as it's only 3HKOed ans Psychic does a lot.

Koga (40) : Drill Peck OHKOes Ariados and Venomoth while Forretress is 3HKOed. Muk and Crobat are 2HKOed by PB Return. It's better to avoid Forretress due to Explosion and it's hard to defeat both Muk and Crobat as the latter outspeed while the former hits hard with Sludge Bomb. Still, Dodrio should claim 3 kills here.

Bruno (41) : Drill Peck OHKOes the Hitmon and puts Machamp in red. Sadly, Dodrio can't take Quick Attack + Cross Chop from Machamp (which nearly OHKOes). But still, Dodrio should be able to defeat Lee, Chan and Machamp which is still great.

Karen (42) : Outspeed and 2HKOes Houndoom while living a Flamethrower. Also OHKOes Vileplume and Gengar (after Curse) with Drill Peck. Assuming Gengar is sent after Houndoom, Dodrio can defeat the 3, which is great. You can also defeat Murkrow but it's better to beat Houndoom.

Lance (43) : PB Return/SP Drill Peck 2HKOes Gyarados as it sets up Rain. It can then defeat Charizard, outpeeding and 2HKOing while taking a Flamethrower.


Koffing

This was a bit better than expected and D-tier is fine for it. While Rollout is a bit unreliable, it allowed to sweep Morty. Self-Destruct is always nice to take down an ace like Poliwrath, Kingdra and Umbreon. It was also alright for Pryce (and Jasmine with Fire Blast) and the E4 was mostly fine. All in all, Koffing was good enough on its own to be merged with Crystal Weezing.

Voltorb

This is an easy D-tier. Electrode just requires too much investment for an only average performance. In spite of the boosted experience, training Voltorb felt painfull as it only has Sonic Boom and Tackle as well as Rollout through the TM. It took quite some time to get Thunder and even then either relying on an unaccurate move or setting up Rain Dance each time is pretty time-consuming. Speaking of which, Rain Dance TM requires a massive backtrack (as you really want ThunderDance for Chuck) and Thunder is really expansive in this game.

Even performance-wise, Electrode was mostly average. It relied a lot on Rollout against Morty and Pryce and a single miss ruins the strategy. Its most important perk was defeating Chuck, Bruno's Croat reliably and Lance's non-Dragonite mon. Outside of this, it didn't accomplish mons weak to Thunder and even then, it required a turn to set up. So yeah, D-tier, it's way too much investment between difficulties to train, requiring a game corner TM, a massive backtrack, all of these for just 2/3 solid matchup.

Weepingbell

Much like others grass-/poison-type, this is a D-tier. Weepingbell was good for Chuck and Pryce and mostly bad elsewhere outside of getting a few kos. It was also hard to train before getting Sludge Bomb. Still, defeating Chuck and doing well against Pryce as well as providing support in the form of Sleep Powder is enough to be in D-tier. I really feel Weepingbell should get merged in D-tier, much like Gloom and Vileplume. They have mostly similar performances and flaws.

Slowbro

Not too sure between C-tier and D-tier on this one but leaning toward the latter. Slowbro was great for gyms 5/6/7 but was mostly bad afterwards. While it's fairly strong and bulky, its speed is a major hinderance. It's just prone to getting haxxed and to get koed to multiple hits. Will for instance looks great on paper but in practise, Slowbro will struggle to take more than 2 mon. Against Koga, even Forretress outspeeds and it's hard to defeat both Muk and Crobat due to the hax involved. Bruno isn't an easy fight and multiple hits will easily take down Slowbro. Karen was really bad and against Lance, Slowbro can only defeat a Dragonite or Aerodactyl+Charizard. Slowbro felt below-average during the E4 and was also not that easy to train due to its low speed.

As for Slowbro vs Slowking, the latter should definitely be C-tier and one tier difference wouldn't shock me. Unless you want to use Slowbro only from Clair onward, where it had an average performance, you miss a great Slowpoke phase. While Slowpoke has the same training issues as Slowbro, it wins against Bugsy and Whitney and this along with defeating gyms 5/6/7 is enough for C-tier.

Doduo

This is good in D-tier and was by far my best mon for the E4. I caught a level 30 Dodrio and had no trouble getting to level 38 by defeating Route 27 and 26 trainers, with only Magneton being a problem. Dodrio was great for the fact it was pretty self-sufficient, only possibly requiring the Return TM for Muk/Crobat. Tri Attack, Fly and especially Drill Peck are the only moves it needed. Performant-wise, Dodrio was great, contributing to some degree in each battle. It defeated the whole rival team outside of Magneton and could take down 3/4 mons against Will and Koga. Bruno felt great and except for Crobat and Kadabra/Alakazam, it's hard to find a mon that can beat Machamp and 2 Hitmon. Karen was pretty good as it can defeat Houndoom, Vileplume and Gengar. While Lance wasn't impressive, taking down Gyarados + Charizard is something at least. While it can't be higher than D-tier due to coming late and requiring specific training, Dodrio was pretty good, being self-sufficient and having a solid performance. It should be enough to prevent it from going to the worst tier.

As for traded Dodrio vs wild one, it would seem logical that both end up in the same tier. While traded version comes earlier and has boosted experience, it's really time-consuming to raise a Dratini to level 30. You need to use the costly game corner one early on as training one from Dragon is worse than caughting directly a Dodrio. It also doesn't seem to perform well against Clair.


Next run is going to be : Tentacruel, Goldeen, Tangela and Late-Teddiursa. I Expect B-/C-tier on Tentacruel, D-tier on Goldeen, D-/E-tier on Tangela and C-tier on Gold Teddiursa.
 
Gonna drop my own viewpoint on Kadabra / Zam, though what Zebes said above kinda sums it up well. It's been a while since I've ran the game, but hey:

The Abra line is indeed head and shoulders above the rest of the game. Sure, Totodile is a great all-rounder and Magmar blasts out of the gates with good TMs, but those are the exception rather than the rule. When you dip into the lower tiers, Pokemon tend to have one and exactly one thing they are decent at in GSC thanks to utterly awful movepools / stats due to early installment weirdness (think how the Bellsprout line's calling card is a decent STAB Sludge Bomb) and even when they aren't, it's a good chance they get screwed over by rarity or Stone evos. Even "good" mons like Geodude falter as the game goes on, usually the decent mons will have a few gyms to their name and maybe something like Koga at best.

Let's look at a Pokemon with "good" stats in Steelix.

Screen Shot 2023-01-15 at 8.29.33 PM.png


See what I mean? A mon with workable stats on paper is in actuality heavily dependent on TMs like Iron Tail and Earthquake, not to mention a Metal Coat hunt.

The Abra line has almost none of this. Sure, Abra might be annoying to catch, but if that's such a problem just grab one from the Game Corner. Once you get one and TM on the elemental punches for chump change, you have basically amazing stats and amazing coverage, when most mons in GSC can only attest to one of those two qualities (off the top of my head, one that has both is Mareep, in addition to Gengar below).

There's also nothing else that can really elemental punch with the Abra line's Speed and power that is readily available beyond Gengar, and that requires using the underwhelming Gastly for like 20 levels and spamming Curse, which is enough to make Gengar A tier. Hypno gets the punches, but it's way slower and weaker. Some Normal types like Miltank get the punches, but it doesn't have the Special Attack to use them.

If Abra id the only S tier, then so be it. I also think Totodile is fairly overrated and right at home in A. I mean, yeah it can Ice Punch Lance, yeah it has early Surf, but I think people treat Totodile like it's Mudkip in Hoenn when it's really not. Totodile is pretty great until Morty, but then stops having particularly notable performances as it is either weak to a boss (Jasmine, though this is debatable because of Steelix. It all depends if you OHKO Magnemite or not). or something resists STAB (Bruno's Poliwrath, Pryce's Seel line) and it's definitely not overwhelming Clair. Elite Four is pretty meh too outside Lance because base 79 Special Attack really isn't something you can spam Surf and OHKO things with.
 
The dependence on EQ is a fair point, but why are we penalizing dependence on Iron Tail? That's like an irrelevant move for pretty much anyone else.

I also think the tiering is a little too stringent (and not to mention, inconsistent) at times. Abra does deserve to be S and is pretty much the best in the game, but I frequently wonder what the standard for S even is. What is an overwhelming majority? 70%? 90%? 99.9%? Totodile can O-2HKO pretty much everything with a pulse too, and the few things they cannot, they usually swept with Rage - Falkner and Bugsy for instance - or laugh at and tank like Pryce. The Rival's Bayleef in Azalea, Whitney, and Karen's Umbreon are the only opponents that aren't simply swept one way or another. Toto appears early too, and the only really ''costly'' TM they need is Dig for Jasmine and Morty. Should needing one TM, even a good one, even be penalized?

Also note that Totodile is there for gyms 1 and 2, where they do really well. Abra cannot be obtained until after that and also cannot contribute to the Azalea Rival battle, probably one of the harder fights in the game (Totodile does not do well, again, but can at least contribute and potentially win). Abra cannot even sweep Jasmine as a Kadabra (Steelix OHKOes with Iron Tail according to logs) and loses to Umbreon and Houndoom straight up.

I know comparing mons is frowned upon, but IMO, that ignores the fact we literally have tiering criteria and are, by definition, comparing Pokemon to each other by putting them in different tiers according to performance. Abra isn't perfect, and IMO, doesn't necessarily do that much better than Totodile.

S tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver versions. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon typically show up before the late-game and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.
Also, a typo there, Turdterra. It should be Pokémon Gold, Silver, and Crystal versions.
 
Last edited:
Many have already explained the mons in questions and I agree with most of them. Each Pokemon is tested on their own merits on what they can accomplish. The thing with S Tier is that the Abra line is being treated more of an "expectation" of what it means to be an S tier in this game. Kadabra and Alakazam just crack open a cold case of Elemental Punch and destroy the game. The only one who can kind of come close to this power is Gengar but the slog to get to Gengar is pretty bad even if he has more MU those MUs are actually pretty bad for it (and worth noting that you get Kadabra at Whitney while you still have Gastly at this point)

Overall, the Pokemon in question here, Totodile and Magmar are pretty high tier in the own respect but they can't accomplish that expectation that we have for S Tier. They can muscle their way through a large chunk but the end game pretty has them fall short to reaching that S Tier performance and the Abra line does fit the bill for S Tier to a T. Despite it having one MU where it legit cannot do much in which is Karen due to Houndoom and Umbreon, it nukes 3 other members and with Jasmine, it takes out 2 as Kadabra and sweeps as Zam.

Most of the tiering comes from a personal "feel" aspect while also attempting to stay close to the descriptions we have in the thread. There are some exceptions of course but most of the time these are heavily debated topics and a lot of pushback is generated, however each of these heavily debated topics have had numerous tests backing them and when push comes to shove, it is a majority vote that ultimately seals their fate even if I, myself, do not agree with the outcome of it.


As for this "Totodile needs Dig for Jasmine" it does not. Gatr with Mystic Water Surf OHKOs the Mites reliably. Even it one happens to live, your bulk allows you to take a TBolt and Jasmine first turns Sunny Day which she then turns Surf into a 3HKO. There is no need to TM Dig for her.

Overall, Abra is legitimately the best Pokemon in the game and nothing has once come close to our expectation of an S-Tier Mon in GSC

Edit: As of right now, a list has been generated on Pokemon that have been tested and I am going through them to place them all.

I will be closing all testing on February 28th, 2023 and closing the thread to have it get ready for its next steps. I will be making nother post on what Pokemon need to have tests in the next few days.
 
Last edited:
Honestly, I'd say that Abra does significantly better than Totodile. While it comes earlier, Bugsy battle depends on the unreliable Rage. From Whitney onward, Kadabra/Alakazam are truely better. Whitney depends on hitting every Fury Cutter, a problem the Abra doesn't have. Morty relies on bad AI and you need to get the range on Magnemite (a problem I had with Tentacruel on this run) against Jasmine. Feraligatr struggles to beat Chuck and can't hope to defeat Clair's Dragonair as easily as Kadabra/Alakazam.
Feraligatr is "only" great against the Elite 4 while the Abra line pretty much destroys it outside of Karen. Feraligatr can't hope to defeat Will/Koga/Bruno unlike the Abra line. Will in particular felt average, Feraligatr only 2HKOes with Ice Punch (when the Abra line OHKOes), meaning it won't defeat more than 2/3 mons usually. While Feraligatr can indeed defeat Houndoom against Karen, it will also struggle to get past Umbreon and Vileplume. Lance is also way worse because it can't OHKO Dragonite and this will result in either beating only a Dragonite or Charizard+Aero whereas the Abra defeats the three Dragonite+Gyarados+one of Zard/Aero easily.

Overall, I'd say that the difference between Totodile and Abra is that Totodile is the definition of consistency while the Abra line almost always wins. Totodile doesn't sweep every gym leader, only putting a strong performance whereas Kadabra/Alakazam wins in every battle outside of Karen (and Jasmine/Clair in the case of Kadabra, 2 battles where it still does a lot).

Anyway, I did the run. Not that I had to grind in the wild for Clair due to the leveling up group of Tentacruel and using Teddiursa/Tangela.

Chuck (30) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Tentacruel outspeeds both and easily takes hits. Solid win.

Jasmine (31) : Magnemite is a roll for the OHKO with MW Surf. Steelix is 2HKOed (3HKOed after Sunny Day) and Tentacruel can take several Iron Tail.

Pryce (31) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Seel, 3HKOes Dewgong while Piloswine is 2HKOed by Surf. Solid win.

Rival (33) : Outspeed and 2HKO Golbat with Surf. Then, Surf OHKOes Magnemite and 2HKOes Haunter and Sneasel. Meganium is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Unless confusion hits, Tentacruel should win here.

Clair (38) : NVI Blizzard OHKOes Dragonair, which are outsped. Kingdra is 4HKOed (3HKOed most of the time due to poison) while it 2HKOes with Hyper Beam. You need a bit of luck to not trigger Potion, hit through Smokescreen and that Kingdra uses Hyper Beam when the next Sludge Bomb will ko it. It's hard to outright win due to the hax involved but Tentacruel can 1v1 Kingdra about half of the time.

Rival (40) : Equip Bitter Berry for Golbat. Surf 2HKOes Sneasel, Haunter and Golbat. Sludge Bomb OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes Meganium (through Reflect). Tentacruel has no trouble defeating these 5. It's better to avoid Magneton as it's only 2HKOed by Surf and may paralyse.

Will (41) : Psychic from everything 2HKOes. NVI OHKOes both Xatu and is a range on Exeggutor. Jynx is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Due to Blizzard unaccuracy, it's hard to get more than 2 kos at most.

Koga (41) : MW Surf 2HKOes the bug. Muk is beatable but avoid it due to the hax involved as it's only 4HKOed ans Minimize is annoying. Crobat is only 3HKOed by Surf and 2HKOed Blizzard (which is impossible to hit through Double Team), has a Full Restore so avoid fighting it.

Bruno (41) : Set up 2 Barrier as Hitmontop goes for Dig. Then, use Sludge Bomb and Barrier on the dig turn. Top is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb (2HKOed if first turn poison) and Chan/Lee are 2HKOed. Onix is OHKOed by Surf. Machamp is 4HKOed (7HKOed considering Full Restore) but does nothing back with Rock Slide. I tried this a few times and outside of Chan paralysing or a crit, Tentacruel should win. Machamp generally needs 6/7 hits to win but can only attack 5 times, not to mention that it sometimes goes for Foresight and may miss.

Karen (41) : Surf 2HKOes Houndoom and Murkrow and Tentacruel can take 2 Crunch + Feint Attack. MW Surf OHKOes Gengar after Curse but then Tentacruel won't be able to defeat Houndoom due to Curse. It's also possible to 2HKO Vileplume with Blizzard and a PRZCureBerry but you need to hit and you're better off koing Murkrow and Houndoom.

Lance (41) : Outspeeds and OHKOes the lvl 47 Dragonite with NVI Blizzard. The lvl 50 Dragonite barely lives but doesn't do much back with Outrage (and might go for Safeguard). Charizard is outsped and 2HKOed by Surf and can't kill from there with Hyper Beam. Aerodactyl then come and kos with Wing Attack + Hyper Beam (even if Dragonite didn't attack). Pretty good as if Tentacruel hits it can beat the 3 Dragonite and Charizard (or Aerodactyl instead of Charizard if lvl 50 Dragonite didn't attack). NeverMeltIce is required to OHKO the lvl47 Dragonites.


Chuck (30) : Surf 2HKOes Primeape. Poliwrath is only 5HKOed and barring major luck with Flail, it can't be defeated.

Jasmine (31) : Magnemite isn't OHKOed by Surf so avoid them. Steelix is 2HKOed by Surf (3HKOed after Sunny Day) and can't do much back.

Pryce (31) : PB Horn Attack 2HKOes Seel and is a range for the 3HKO on Dewgong. Piloswine is 2HKOed by Surf. It mayy take some time as you need to get the range on Dewgong which uses Rest but Seaking is favoured to win.

Rival (33) : MW Surf 2HKOes Golbat most of the time but it's better to avoid it as it outspeeds. MW Surf OHKOes Magnemite, Haunter after Curse and it 2HKOes Sneasel so it should be able to beat these 3 mons.

Clair (38) : OHKO Dragonair with NVI Blizzard. It's not getting past Kingdra, which is way too bulky, even with Flail.

Rival (40) : 2HKOes Sneasel with Surf. Avoid Magneton as Surf only 2HKOes. Pink Bow Horn Attack OHKOes Kadabra. 2HKOes Golbat and Haunter with Surf. Alright as Seaking should defeat Sneasel, Kadabra, Golbat and Haunter.

Will (40) : NVI Blizzard only 2HKOes Xatu (which outspeed) and Exeggutor. Psychic from Xatu 3HKOes and the rest will 2HKO. Seaking won't get more than 1 ko (one Xatu or Exeggutor).

Koga (40) : Set up Rain on Ariados, then 2HKO it and Venomoth. Rain will fade when Forretress will come and it's better to avoid it as it's only 3HKOed by Surf and may use Explosion.

Bruno (40) : Use Surf on Hitmontop as it goes for Dig. Set up Rain Dance while underground. Then attack, it will be in yellow bar and use Dig again. From there, the next hit will ko it. Then, Seaking does half to Hitmonchan with Surf and is able to take 2 Thunder Punch+ 2 Dig. Use Flail and it will ko Chan. Later on, you can outspeed and OHKO Onix.

Karen (41) : Only beats Murkrow 1v1, 2HKOing with Surf while only getting 3HKOed by Feint Attack. Houndoom 2HKOes with Crunch and is only 2HKOed by Surf. Gengar is 2HKOed by Surf after Curse and will use Destiny Bond and thus can't be defeated. You can also try PRZCureBerry and 2HKO Vileplume with Blizzard but it's risky.

Lance (41) : Can 1v1 Charizard and Aerodactyl, 2HKOing with Surf, while taking Wing Attack + Hyper Beam. It's also possible to 2HKO the Blizzard Dragonite (equip PRZCureBerry). Lvl 50 Dragonite 2HKOes with Outrage but it's possible to defeat it if it uses another move.


Rival (33) : Avoid Magnemite as even though it can beat it 1v1, 4HKOing with Giga Drain, it will be weakened too much to defeat Meganium. Meganium is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb (it will likely take more turns due to Reflect). Tangela can then defeat Sneasel, 3HKOing with Mega Drain, while restoring its HP.

Clair (38) : Sludge Bomb 4HKOes Dragonair, which 3HKOes back with Dragon Breath. You need to get lucky with Sleep Powder to defeat a single Dragonair.... Kingdra is way too bulky, has Smokescreen and 3HKOes with Dragon Breath.

Rival (40) : 2HKOes Sneasel with Mega Drain. Meganium is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Tangela can't even defeat Sneasel+Kadabra+Meganium as Future Sight does a lot of damages to the point Meganium will ko.

Will (40) : Mega Drain 3HKOes Slowbro. It will go for Amnesia and Curse but 4 hits will be enough to take it down while Tangela can take a Psychic. Tangela will defeat it. Tangela also outspeeds and 3HKOes Exeggutor with Sludge Bomb while getting 2HKOed by Psychic. It's possible to win against it thanks to poor AI (Will somehow likes to spam Leech Seed) but it's by no mean reliable.

Koga (40) : lol no.

Bruno (40) : Can muscle through Hitmontop, 5HKOing with Mega Drain. Can then heal with Mega Drain on Onix. Hitmonlee likes to Swagger, Tangela will then 2HKO with Sludge Bomb (3HKO otherwise). It can even take one self-hit with Swagger and 2 High Jump Kick and barely defeat Hitmonlee.

Karen (40) : Vileplume 4HKOes with Petal Dance, will paralyse and outstall Sludge Bomb PPs with Moonlightas it only gets 5HKOed. Can't defeat the rest. Murkrow is only 4HKOed and 3HKOes with Feint Attack.

Lance (40) : Mega Drain 6HKOes Gyarados, which can get beaten with Sleep Powder (Surf in Rain only 3HKOes so it's totally feasible). Won't do much else.


Rival (33) : Return OHKOes Golbat and Sneasel while Meganium is 2HKOed. Fire Punch OHKOes Magnemite. Haunter is OHKOed by Feint Attack. Ursaring can easily takes hit so barring self-hitting with confusion, it should win here. Even then, you can always switch out on Magnemite, who isn't hard to take down.

Clair (38) : Outspeed and OHKO Dragonair with PB Return. 2HKOes Kingdra while Surf only 3HKOes. Impressive win.

Rival (40) : OHKOes Sneasel, Golbat and Kadabra and 2HKOes Meganium. Earthquake OHKOes Magneton and Haunter. Just equip a PRZCureBerry (for Thunder Wave on Magneton) and Ursaring should sweep the team, even assuming a confusion self-hit.

Will (40) : Equip Bitter Berry Return OHKOes Xatus, Jynx and 2HKOes Exeggutor and Slowbro (even if it uses Curse). Psychic 3HKOes so assuming Xatu #1 goes for Confuse Ray, it's possible to defeat it as well as Jynx, Slowbro (which tends to go for Curse) and Xatu #2. Even if Xatu #1 goes for Psychic, it still results in 2/3 kos (Xatu #1 + another mon and possibly Slowbro if you're not in Psychic range when facing it) which is fine.

Koga (41) : PB Return OHKOes Ariados/Venomoth. Fire Punch OHKOes Foretress. Muk is 2HKOed by Return. Use Fire Punch+Return to not trigger Hyper Potion against Crobat. Barring getting really unlucky against Crobat and Supersonic and Supersonic from Venomoth, Ursaring should win.

Bruno (42) : 2HKO Hitmontop with Return + Earthquake. You can then OHKO Lee and Chan as you take Double Kick + Mach Punch. Machamp is outsped and 2HKOed but Cross Chop OHKOes. Pretty good as it beats the 3 hitmon.

Karen (42) : Return (doesn't require Pink Bow) 2HKOes Umbreon. Earthquake OHKOes Gengar and Houndoom. Return OHKOes Ursaring should beat these 3 as it easily takes a Flamethrower. If Umbreon didn't go for Feint Attack and you manage to hit, Ursaring can take a Flamethower + Feint Attack, meaning it can also defeat Murkrow and Vileplume (which goes for Stun Spore) with a PRZCureBerry. Really impressive as Ursaring takes the 2 main mons and Gengar at worst when Murkrow and Vileplume are free most of the time and can achieve a sweep.

Lance (42) : Return 2HKOes everything but Aerodactyl. Ursaring can defeat Gyarados + a level 47 Dragonite, taking Hyper Beam from both. Alternatively, it can 1v1 each mon outside of Aerodactyl, including even lvl 50 Dragonite.



Tentacool

This is C-tier. Tentacruel was pretty good throughout the game outside of maybe Koga. it was solid for the last 4 gyms and had an alright E4 performance, sweeping Bruno most notably and faring really well against Lance if it hits Blizzard. Main reasons I want to say C-tier as opposed to B-tier are the slow growth rate, inconsistency at some point and reliance on Blizzard. Tentacruel already comes after the 4th gym and is going to take away a lot of experience from the team due to the slow growth rate. Inconsistency mostly stems from the fact it can't for sure OHKO Magnemite from Jasmine, not having a guaranteed win against Clair's Kingdra and its reliance on Blizzard. Blizzard is expensive in this game and Tentacruel will absolutely need to hit it as a miss is pretty dangerous for it. This is especially a problem when you need to hit multiple times Blizzard in a single match. Tentacruel needs to hit three times against Clair and Lance and twice against Will. Furthermore, the Blizzard TM seems mandatory as Tentacruel feels way worse without it, not being able to defeat Dragonairs and Dragonites (and Xatus from Will) makes Tentacruel way worse, especially when it can sometimes beat Kingdra and Charizard. So yeah C-tier, Tentacruel was pretty fun to use but it requires lots of investment (in term of experience and requiring the Blizzard TM) for a good performance with a bit of inconstency (against Jasmine and Clair/Lance due to Blizzard's unaccuracy).

Seaking

Seaking is an easy D-tier. It was rather bad and outside of sometimes Pryce, it didn't have a true win. Still, it contributed to some degrees, defeating Steelix from Jasmine and Clair's Dragonair assuming it has Blizzard. The E4 wasn't particularly good but at least Seaking could get at least a ko in each battle, which is always cool. All in all, Seaking isn't good but between good accessibility, solid performances against Jasmine and Pryce and ability to get at least a ko in each battle, it's enough to prevent it from going to E-tier.

Tangela

This thing was awful and really deserves to be E-tier. Tangela comes underleveled after defeating 7 gym leaders and is terrible to train. Most of the Pokemon you want to grind on in radio tower are poison-types, which Tangela can't defeat. To make things worse, Tangela barely did anything signifiant. The only thing I can recall was being able to defeat Meganium+Sneasel from Rival, Slowbro from Will, Hitmontop/Lee against Bruno and Gyarados from Lance and that's it. Don't think this will get contested, it's a Pokemon that comes underleved, is hard to level up and has an all across terrible performance.

Teddiursa (Gold)

This, on the other hand was great and deserves C-tier. Unlike Tangela, training Teddiursa and then Ursaring was fairly easy. Caught with a Friend Ball, STAB Return actually hits hard and it's not hard to get to level 33 for the rival fight. Ursaring had the same great performance as early Teddiursa really. It managed to sweep both Rival fight and Clair. The E4 was great honestly, Will was alright and Koga is nearly all the time a sweep. Bruno was pretty impressive for a Normal-type as Ursaring can defeat the 3 hitmon and do half to Machamp (and even win if it misses Cross Chop). Karen was really impressive and Ursaring has good odds to defeat her and in the worst case, will take down Umbreon, Gengar and Houndoom. Lance wasn't good but at least Ursaring could beat everything but Aerodactyl 1v1. Honestly, sweeping Clair is an impressive feature and the fact that Ursaring does also really well against the Elite 4 (possibly sweeping Karen is unheard of) and can 1v1 against Lance makes me feel it belongs in C-tier.

As for Crystal Teddiursa, I really think A-tier would be perfect for it. You not only have the strong late-game performance but also a win against gyms 5/6/7 and Falkner. Additionnally, Teddiursa has a good Morty fight and an alright Bugsy/Whitney. I'd say it's about as good as Gengar, defeating 5/8 gyms and having a strong E4.


Next run is going to be Yanma/Golem/Shuckle/Natu. I have no doubts Yanma, Shuckle and Natu will end E-tier but still want to test everything outside of Ditto, Smeargle and Unown and see the (few) differences between Graveler and Golem.
 
Honestly, I'd say that Abra does significantly better than Totodile. While it comes earlier, Bugsy battle depends on the unreliable Rage. From Whitney onward, Kadabra/Alakazam are truely better. Whitney depends on hitting every Fury Cutter, a problem the Abra doesn't have. Morty relies on bad AI and you need to get the range on Magnemite (a problem I had with Tentacruel on this run) against Jasmine. Feraligatr struggles to beat Chuck and can't hope to defeat Clair's Dragonair as easily as Kadabra/Alakazam.
Feraligatr is "only" great against the Elite 4 while the Abra line pretty much destroys it outside of Karen. Feraligatr can't hope to defeat Will/Koga/Bruno unlike the Abra line. Will in particular felt average, Feraligatr only 2HKOes with Ice Punch (when the Abra line OHKOes), meaning it won't defeat more than 2/3 mons usually. While Feraligatr can indeed defeat Houndoom against Karen, it will also struggle to get past Umbreon and Vileplume. Lance is also way worse because it can't OHKO Dragonite and this will result in either beating only a Dragonite or Charizard+Aero whereas the Abra defeats the three Dragonite+Gyarados+one of Zard/Aero easily.

Overall, I'd say that the difference between Totodile and Abra is that Totodile is the definition of consistency while the Abra line almost always wins. Totodile doesn't sweep every gym leader, only putting a strong performance whereas Kadabra/Alakazam wins in every battle outside of Karen (and Jasmine/Clair in the case of Kadabra, 2 battles where it still does a lot).

Anyway, I did the run. Not that I had to grind in the wild for Clair due to the leveling up group of Tentacruel and using Teddiursa/Tangela.

Chuck (30) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Tentacruel outspeeds both and easily takes hits. Solid win.

Jasmine (31) : Magnemite is a roll for the OHKO with MW Surf. Steelix is 2HKOed (3HKOed after Sunny Day) and Tentacruel can take several Iron Tail.

Pryce (31) : Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Seel, 3HKOes Dewgong while Piloswine is 2HKOed by Surf. Solid win.

Rival (33) : Outspeed and 2HKO Golbat with Surf. Then, Surf OHKOes Magnemite and 2HKOes Haunter and Sneasel. Meganium is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Unless confusion hits, Tentacruel should win here.

Clair (38) : NVI Blizzard OHKOes Dragonair, which are outsped. Kingdra is 4HKOed (3HKOed most of the time due to poison) while it 2HKOes with Hyper Beam. You need a bit of luck to not trigger Potion, hit through Smokescreen and that Kingdra uses Hyper Beam when the next Sludge Bomb will ko it. It's hard to outright win due to the hax involved but Tentacruel can 1v1 Kingdra about half of the time.

Rival (40) : Equip Bitter Berry for Golbat. Surf 2HKOes Sneasel, Haunter and Golbat. Sludge Bomb OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes Meganium (through Reflect). Tentacruel has no trouble defeating these 5. It's better to avoid Magneton as it's only 2HKOed by Surf and may paralyse.

Will (41) : Psychic from everything 2HKOes. NVI OHKOes both Xatu and is a range on Exeggutor. Jynx is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Due to Blizzard unaccuracy, it's hard to get more than 2 kos at most.

Koga (41) : MW Surf 2HKOes the bug. Muk is beatable but avoid it due to the hax involved as it's only 4HKOed ans Minimize is annoying. Crobat is only 3HKOed by Surf and 2HKOed Blizzard (which is impossible to hit through Double Team), has a Full Restore so avoid fighting it.

Bruno (41) : Set up 2 Barrier as Hitmontop goes for Dig. Then, use Sludge Bomb and Barrier on the dig turn. Top is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb (2HKOed if first turn poison) and Chan/Lee are 2HKOed. Onix is OHKOed by Surf. Machamp is 4HKOed (7HKOed considering Full Restore) but does nothing back with Rock Slide. I tried this a few times and outside of Chan paralysing or a crit, Tentacruel should win. Machamp generally needs 6/7 hits to win but can only attack 5 times, not to mention that it sometimes goes for Foresight and may miss.

Karen (41) : Surf 2HKOes Houndoom and Murkrow and Tentacruel can take 2 Crunch + Feint Attack. MW Surf OHKOes Gengar after Curse but then Tentacruel won't be able to defeat Houndoom due to Curse. It's also possible to 2HKO Vileplume with Blizzard and a PRZCureBerry but you need to hit and you're better off koing Murkrow and Houndoom.

Lance (41) : Outspeeds and OHKOes the lvl 47 Dragonite with NVI Blizzard. The lvl 50 Dragonite barely lives but doesn't do much back with Outrage (and might go for Safeguard). Charizard is outsped and 2HKOed by Surf and can't kill from there with Hyper Beam. Aerodactyl then come and kos with Wing Attack + Hyper Beam (even if Dragonite didn't attack). Pretty good as if Tentacruel hits it can beat the 3 Dragonite and Charizard (or Aerodactyl instead of Charizard if lvl 50 Dragonite didn't attack). NeverMeltIce is required to OHKO the lvl47 Dragonites.


Chuck (30) : Surf 2HKOes Primeape. Poliwrath is only 5HKOed and barring major luck with Flail, it can't be defeated.

Jasmine (31) : Magnemite isn't OHKOed by Surf so avoid them. Steelix is 2HKOed by Surf (3HKOed after Sunny Day) and can't do much back.

Pryce (31) : PB Horn Attack 2HKOes Seel and is a range for the 3HKO on Dewgong. Piloswine is 2HKOed by Surf. It mayy take some time as you need to get the range on Dewgong which uses Rest but Seaking is favoured to win.

Rival (33) : MW Surf 2HKOes Golbat most of the time but it's better to avoid it as it outspeeds. MW Surf OHKOes Magnemite, Haunter after Curse and it 2HKOes Sneasel so it should be able to beat these 3 mons.

Clair (38) : OHKO Dragonair with NVI Blizzard. It's not getting past Kingdra, which is way too bulky, even with Flail.

Rival (40) : 2HKOes Sneasel with Surf. Avoid Magneton as Surf only 2HKOes. Pink Bow Horn Attack OHKOes Kadabra. 2HKOes Golbat and Haunter with Surf. Alright as Seaking should defeat Sneasel, Kadabra, Golbat and Haunter.

Will (40) : NVI Blizzard only 2HKOes Xatu (which outspeed) and Exeggutor. Psychic from Xatu 3HKOes and the rest will 2HKO. Seaking won't get more than 1 ko (one Xatu or Exeggutor).

Koga (40) : Set up Rain on Ariados, then 2HKO it and Venomoth. Rain will fade when Forretress will come and it's better to avoid it as it's only 3HKOed by Surf and may use Explosion.

Bruno (40) : Use Surf on Hitmontop as it goes for Dig. Set up Rain Dance while underground. Then attack, it will be in yellow bar and use Dig again. From there, the next hit will ko it. Then, Seaking does half to Hitmonchan with Surf and is able to take 2 Thunder Punch+ 2 Dig. Use Flail and it will ko Chan. Later on, you can outspeed and OHKO Onix.

Karen (41) : Only beats Murkrow 1v1, 2HKOing with Surf while only getting 3HKOed by Feint Attack. Houndoom 2HKOes with Crunch and is only 2HKOed by Surf. Gengar is 2HKOed by Surf after Curse and will use Destiny Bond and thus can't be defeated. You can also try PRZCureBerry and 2HKO Vileplume with Blizzard but it's risky.

Lance (41) : Can 1v1 Charizard and Aerodactyl, 2HKOing with Surf, while taking Wing Attack + Hyper Beam. It's also possible to 2HKO the Blizzard Dragonite (equip PRZCureBerry). Lvl 50 Dragonite 2HKOes with Outrage but it's possible to defeat it if it uses another move.


Rival (33) : Avoid Magnemite as even though it can beat it 1v1, 4HKOing with Giga Drain, it will be weakened too much to defeat Meganium. Meganium is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb (it will likely take more turns due to Reflect). Tangela can then defeat Sneasel, 3HKOing with Mega Drain, while restoring its HP.

Clair (38) : Sludge Bomb 4HKOes Dragonair, which 3HKOes back with Dragon Breath. You need to get lucky with Sleep Powder to defeat a single Dragonair.... Kingdra is way too bulky, has Smokescreen and 3HKOes with Dragon Breath.

Rival (40) : 2HKOes Sneasel with Mega Drain. Meganium is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Tangela can't even defeat Sneasel+Kadabra+Meganium as Future Sight does a lot of damages to the point Meganium will ko.

Will (40) : Mega Drain 3HKOes Slowbro. It will go for Amnesia and Curse but 4 hits will be enough to take it down while Tangela can take a Psychic. Tangela will defeat it. Tangela also outspeeds and 3HKOes Exeggutor with Sludge Bomb while getting 2HKOed by Psychic. It's possible to win against it thanks to poor AI (Will somehow likes to spam Leech Seed) but it's by no mean reliable.

Koga (40) : lol no.

Bruno (40) : Can muscle through Hitmontop, 5HKOing with Mega Drain. Can then heal with Mega Drain on Onix. Hitmonlee likes to Swagger, Tangela will then 2HKO with Sludge Bomb (3HKO otherwise). It can even take one self-hit with Swagger and 2 High Jump Kick and barely defeat Hitmonlee.

Karen (40) : Vileplume 4HKOes with Petal Dance, will paralyse and outstall Sludge Bomb PPs with Moonlightas it only gets 5HKOed. Can't defeat the rest. Murkrow is only 4HKOed and 3HKOes with Feint Attack.

Lance (40) : Mega Drain 6HKOes Gyarados, which can get beaten with Sleep Powder (Surf in Rain only 3HKOes so it's totally feasible). Won't do much else.


Rival (33) : Return OHKOes Golbat and Sneasel while Meganium is 2HKOed. Fire Punch OHKOes Magnemite. Haunter is OHKOed by Feint Attack. Ursaring can easily takes hit so barring self-hitting with confusion, it should win here. Even then, you can always switch out on Magnemite, who isn't hard to take down.

Clair (38) : Outspeed and OHKO Dragonair with PB Return. 2HKOes Kingdra while Surf only 3HKOes. Impressive win.

Rival (40) : OHKOes Sneasel, Golbat and Kadabra and 2HKOes Meganium. Earthquake OHKOes Magneton and Haunter. Just equip a PRZCureBerry (for Thunder Wave on Magneton) and Ursaring should sweep the team, even assuming a confusion self-hit.

Will (40) : Equip Bitter Berry Return OHKOes Xatus, Jynx and 2HKOes Exeggutor and Slowbro (even if it uses Curse). Psychic 3HKOes so assuming Xatu #1 goes for Confuse Ray, it's possible to defeat it as well as Jynx, Slowbro (which tends to go for Curse) and Xatu #2. Even if Xatu #1 goes for Psychic, it still results in 2/3 kos (Xatu #1 + another mon and possibly Slowbro if you're not in Psychic range when facing it) which is fine.

Koga (41) : PB Return OHKOes Ariados/Venomoth. Fire Punch OHKOes Foretress. Muk is 2HKOed by Return. Use Fire Punch+Return to not trigger Hyper Potion against Crobat. Barring getting really unlucky against Crobat and Supersonic and Supersonic from Venomoth, Ursaring should win.

Bruno (42) : 2HKO Hitmontop with Return + Earthquake. You can then OHKO Lee and Chan as you take Double Kick + Mach Punch. Machamp is outsped and 2HKOed but Cross Chop OHKOes. Pretty good as it beats the 3 hitmon.

Karen (42) : Return (doesn't require Pink Bow) 2HKOes Umbreon. Earthquake OHKOes Gengar and Houndoom. Return OHKOes Ursaring should beat these 3 as it easily takes a Flamethrower. If Umbreon didn't go for Feint Attack and you manage to hit, Ursaring can take a Flamethower + Feint Attack, meaning it can also defeat Murkrow and Vileplume (which goes for Stun Spore) with a PRZCureBerry. Really impressive as Ursaring takes the 2 main mons and Gengar at worst when Murkrow and Vileplume are free most of the time and can achieve a sweep.

Lance (42) : Return 2HKOes everything but Aerodactyl. Ursaring can defeat Gyarados + a level 47 Dragonite, taking Hyper Beam from both. Alternatively, it can 1v1 each mon outside of Aerodactyl, including even lvl 50 Dragonite.



Tentacool

This is C-tier. Tentacruel was pretty good throughout the game outside of maybe Koga. it was solid for the last 4 gyms and had an alright E4 performance, sweeping Bruno most notably and faring really well against Lance if it hits Blizzard. Main reasons I want to say C-tier as opposed to B-tier are the slow growth rate, inconsistency at some point and reliance on Blizzard. Tentacruel already comes after the 4th gym and is going to take away a lot of experience from the team due to the slow growth rate. Inconsistency mostly stems from the fact it can't for sure OHKO Magnemite from Jasmine, not having a guaranteed win against Clair's Kingdra and its reliance on Blizzard. Blizzard is expensive in this game and Tentacruel will absolutely need to hit it as a miss is pretty dangerous for it. This is especially a problem when you need to hit multiple times Blizzard in a single match. Tentacruel needs to hit three times against Clair and Lance and twice against Will. Furthermore, the Blizzard TM seems mandatory as Tentacruel feels way worse without it, not being able to defeat Dragonairs and Dragonites (and Xatus from Will) makes Tentacruel way worse, especially when it can sometimes beat Kingdra and Charizard. So yeah C-tier, Tentacruel was pretty fun to use but it requires lots of investment (in term of experience and requiring the Blizzard TM) for a good performance with a bit of inconstency (against Jasmine and Clair/Lance due to Blizzard's unaccuracy).

Seaking

Seaking is an easy D-tier. It was rather bad and outside of sometimes Pryce, it didn't have a true win. Still, it contributed to some degrees, defeating Steelix from Jasmine and Clair's Dragonair assuming it has Blizzard. The E4 wasn't particularly good but at least Seaking could get at least a ko in each battle, which is always cool. All in all, Seaking isn't good but between good accessibility, solid performances against Jasmine and Pryce and ability to get at least a ko in each battle, it's enough to prevent it from going to E-tier.

Tangela

This thing was awful and really deserves to be E-tier. Tangela comes underleveled after defeating 7 gym leaders and is terrible to train. Most of the Pokemon you want to grind on in radio tower are poison-types, which Tangela can't defeat. To make things worse, Tangela barely did anything signifiant. The only thing I can recall was being able to defeat Meganium+Sneasel from Rival, Slowbro from Will, Hitmontop/Lee against Bruno and Gyarados from Lance and that's it. Don't think this will get contested, it's a Pokemon that comes underleved, is hard to level up and has an all across terrible performance.

Teddiursa (Gold)

This, on the other hand was great and deserves C-tier. Unlike Tangela, training Teddiursa and then Ursaring was fairly easy. Caught with a Friend Ball, STAB Return actually hits hard and it's not hard to get to level 33 for the rival fight. Ursaring had the same great performance as early Teddiursa really. It managed to sweep both Rival fight and Clair. The E4 was great honestly, Will was alright and Koga is nearly all the time a sweep. Bruno was pretty impressive for a Normal-type as Ursaring can defeat the 3 hitmon and do half to Machamp (and even win if it misses Cross Chop). Karen was really impressive and Ursaring has good odds to defeat her and in the worst case, will take down Umbreon, Gengar and Houndoom. Lance wasn't good but at least Ursaring could beat everything but Aerodactyl 1v1. Honestly, sweeping Clair is an impressive feature and the fact that Ursaring does also really well against the Elite 4 (possibly sweeping Karen is unheard of) and can 1v1 against Lance makes me feel it belongs in C-tier.

As for Crystal Teddiursa, I really think A-tier would be perfect for it. You not only have the strong late-game performance but also a win against gyms 5/6/7 and Falkner. Additionnally, Teddiursa has a good Morty fight and an alright Bugsy/Whitney. I'd say it's about as good as Gengar, defeating 5/8 gyms and having a strong E4.


Next run is going to be Yanma/Golem/Shuckle/Natu. I have no doubts Yanma, Shuckle and Natu will end E-tier but still want to test everything outside of Ditto, Smeargle and Unown and see the (few) differences between Graveler and Golem.
Couldn't have worded it better myself tbh on Abra vs. Toto there. Interesting to note that Cruel is a roll on MW Surf for Mites while Gatr kills them who has 1 point lower in SpA. Might be Stat XP or DVs at work there tbh though.
 
The dependence on EQ is a fair point, but why are we penalizing dependence on Iron Tail? That's like an irrelevant move for pretty much anyone else.

I also think the tiering is a little too stringent (and not to mention, inconsistent) at times. Abra does deserve to be S and is pretty much the best in the game, but I frequently wonder what the standard for S even is. What is an overwhelming majority? 70%? 90%? 99.9%? Totodile can O-2HKO pretty much everything with a pulse too, and the few things they cannot, they usually swept with Rage - Falkner and Bugsy for instance - or laugh at and tank like Pryce. The Rival's Bayleef in Azalea, Whitney, and Karen's Umbreon are the only opponents that aren't simply swept one way or another. Toto appears early too, and the only really ''costly'' TM they need is Dig for Jasmine and Morty. Should needing one TM, even a good one, even be penalized?

Also note that Totodile is there for gyms 1 and 2, where they do really well. Abra cannot be obtained until after that and also cannot contribute to the Azalea Rival battle, probably one of the harder fights in the game (Totodile does not do well, again, but can at least contribute and potentially win). Abra cannot even sweep Jasmine as a Kadabra (Steelix OHKOes with Iron Tail according to logs) and loses to Umbreon and Houndoom straight up.

I know comparing mons is frowned upon, but IMO, that ignores the fact we literally have tiering criteria and are, by definition, comparing Pokemon to each other by putting them in different tiers according to performance. Abra isn't perfect, and IMO, doesn't necessarily do that much better than Totodile.



Also, a typo there, Turdterra. It should be Pokémon Gold, Silver, and Crystal versions.
Totodile needs Blizzard if it wants to have a shot against the Dragons or reach crucial KOs against Xatu or 2HKO against Vileplume, something that, as far as I'm concerned, Alakazam does not need (not that it can learn it anyways). This is a -massive- investment, especially since Blizzard is not a very good move due to poor accuracy
 
I'm curious if beating Pryce first might help Tentacruel and other Waters who are close to 1HKOing (or only had rolls) Jasmine's Magnemite a little, since Pryce's badge gives you Special Attack boost.

Regarding Totodile, i really appreciated that it can function as a reliable semi-HM Slave while being good for a lot of major fights, Really, i literally taught this mon Cut, and its stuck having that move until the Move deleter in Blackthorn, but it never shown any semblance of movepool syndrome whatsoever, In fact, Surf and Strength are all what it needs for the entirety of mid-game, and it still have a spare moveslot to fit Ice Punch. But aside from that, its somewhat okay-ish Elite 4 performance alone was what made me felt it failed to reach S Tier for me, and this is where 79 SpA feels like it wasn't good enough, and even prior to Elite 4, i couldn't easily 1HKO much stuff with Feraligatr against boss fights compared to Abra, even with Rain Dance sometimes, and as Croconaw, while STAB Surf is nice, remember that this thing only has 59 SpA until Level 30, which is around Gyarados level of Special Attack stat, and this can be noticeable against Morty.

My log on Totodile in case you're curious
=Falkner=
Totodile L7-8 @ Berry
Rage 4HKOs Pidgey and 2HKOs Pidgeotto. Both outspeeds and deal 5 and 8 respectively. Totodile barely survives with 1 or 2 HP left, but a Rage sweep is possible even at only Level 7 (and you get a full level-up after beating Pidgey), albeit it needs a Berry

Incredible MU considering its underleveled.
=Bugsy=
Totodile L16-17
Spam Rage to the win. Clean Sweep
=Rival 2=
Totodile L17
Water Gun is close to 2HKOing Gastly and 3HKOing Zubat. Gastly outspeeds

beats 2 at best barring hax
=Whitney=
Croconaw L20 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Rage(with 4 boost) 3HKOs Miltank. Miltank outspeeds and will 3HKO you at best
Pink Bow Rage(6th boost + 7th boost) has a roll to 2HKO Miltank

Very luck reliant to sweep

Fury Cutter 4HKOs Clefairy and the 5th hit is close to 1HKOing Miltank
=Rival 3=
Croconaw L22
Surf KOs Haunter after a Curse, 2HKOs Magnemite. Haunter outspeeds
Ice Punch 2HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Bayleef

Beats 2 or 3 at best.
=Morty=
Croconaw L23-24 @ Mint Berry
Surf 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs both Haunters and 3HKOs Gengar. Gengar and both Haunter outspeeds

Needs luck to sweep
=Chuck=
Feraligatr L30 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs back after a Leer

May need luck to sweep. Needs Pink Bow to reach a 3HKO on Poliwrath.
=Jasmine=
Feraligatr L30 @ MysticWater
MysticWater Surf has a very high roll to 1HKO the Magnemites and is close to 1HKOing Steelix

Needs MysticWater to sweep
=Pryce=
Feraligatr L30 @ MysticWater
Strength 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong. Dewgong outspeeds after an Icy Wind drop
MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Piloswine

Clean sweep
=Rival 4=
Feraligatr L33-34 @ Nevermeltice
Surf 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, 1HKOs Magnemite and is close to 1HKOing Haunter. Sneasel outspeeds
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 2HKOs Meganium

Can sweep barring hax. Needs Nevermeltice to reliably 2HKO Meganium, otherwise its a roll without it, might need luck around Meganium going for Reflect or PoisonPowder turn 1.
=Clair=
Feraligatr L38
Pink Bow Strength is super close to 3HKOing Kingdra. Kingdra 3HKOs back with Hyper Beam, almost 3HKOs back with 2 Dragonbreath into Hyper Beam
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Dragonairs

Beats the Dragonairs at best
=Rival 5=
Feraligatr L38-39 @ PRZCureBerry
Strength 1HKOs Kadabra
Surf 2HKOs Sneasel and Magneton puts Haunter in red. Sneasel outspeeds
With Rain Dance, Surf 1HKOs both Sneasel and Magneton
Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and is close to 2HKOing Meganium (even with Nevermeltice)

Can possibly sweep barring hax. Needs luck around Meganium not going for Razor Leaf turn 1. Needs PRZCureBerry/Rain Dance to beat Magneton

=Will=
Feraligatr L40 @ Bitter Berry
Ice Punch 2HKOs Exeggutor and both Xatus. L42 Xatu speedties
Surf 3HKOs Jynx
Strength 2HKOs Jynx (3HKOs if Exeggutor went for Reflect)

Beats 3 or 4 at best barring hax. Might only beat 2 if both L40 Xatu and Exeggutor went for Psychic turn 1
=Koga=
Feraligatr L40 @ MysticWater
MW Surf 2HKOs the bugs and 3HKOs Muk
With Rain Dance, MW Surf 2HKOs Muk, 1HKOs Ariados and is close to 1HKOing Venomoth and Forretress
Ice Punch is close to 2HKOing Crobat

Beats 3 or 4 at best barring hax
=Bruno=
Feraligatr L41 @ MysticWater
MW Surf 3HKOs Machamp, 1HKOs Onix and is close to 2HKOing the hitmons. Machamp 2HKOs back
With Rain Dance, it reliably 2HKOs the hitmons (they're still 2HKOed by Rain Surf into normal Surf)
Needs Rain Dance to reliably beat 4.
=Karen=
Feraligatr L41 @ MysticWater
With Rain Dance, Surf KOs Gengar after a Curse, and 1HKOs Murkrow and Houndoom. Feraligatr lives a Crunch after a Curse

Needs to set-up Rain Dance on Gengar to beat 3 (Gengar, Murkrow, Houndoom), and luck around Gengar actually going for Curse
=Lance=
Feraligatr L42 @ PRZCureBerry
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Dragonites. L50 Dragonite 2HKOs back, Thunder Dnite loves using Twave turn 1.
Surf puts Aero and Zard in red. Both outspeeds

You can only beat 2 at best (Thunder Dnite + either one of Blizzard Dnite, Aero, or Zard). You need to heal to possibly beat 3 or 4
 
I'm curious if beating Pryce first might help Tentacruel and other Waters who are close to 1HKOing (or only had rolls) Jasmine's Magnemite a little, since Pryce's badge gives you Special Attack boost.

Regarding Totodile, i really appreciated that it can function as a reliable semi-HM Slave while being good for a lot of major fights, Really, i literally taught this mon Cut, and its stuck having that move until the Move deleter in Blackthorn, but it never shown any semblance of movepool syndrome whatsoever, In fact, Surf and Strength are all what it needs for the entirety of mid-game, and it still have a spare moveslot to fit Ice Punch. But aside from that, its somewhat okay-ish Elite 4 performance alone was what made me felt it failed to reach S Tier for me, and this is where 79 SpA feels like it wasn't good enough, and even prior to Elite 4, i couldn't easily 1HKO much stuff with Feraligatr against boss fights compared to Abra, even with Rain Dance sometimes, and as Croconaw, while STAB Surf is nice, remember that this thing only has 59 SpA until Level 30, which is around Gyarados level of Special Attack stat, and this can be noticeable against Morty.

My log on Totodile in case you're curious
=Falkner=
Totodile L7-8 @ Berry
Rage 4HKOs Pidgey and 2HKOs Pidgeotto. Both outspeeds and deal 5 and 8 respectively. Totodile barely survives with 1 or 2 HP left, but a Rage sweep is possible even at only Level 7 (and you get a full level-up after beating Pidgey), albeit it needs a Berry

Incredible MU considering its underleveled.
=Bugsy=
Totodile L16-17
Spam Rage to the win. Clean Sweep
=Rival 2=
Totodile L17
Water Gun is close to 2HKOing Gastly and 3HKOing Zubat. Gastly outspeeds

beats 2 at best barring hax
=Whitney=
Croconaw L20 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Rage(with 4 boost) 3HKOs Miltank. Miltank outspeeds and will 3HKO you at best
Pink Bow Rage(6th boost + 7th boost) has a roll to 2HKO Miltank

Very luck reliant to sweep

Fury Cutter 4HKOs Clefairy and the 5th hit is close to 1HKOing Miltank
=Rival 3=
Croconaw L22
Surf KOs Haunter after a Curse, 2HKOs Magnemite. Haunter outspeeds
Ice Punch 2HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Bayleef

Beats 2 or 3 at best.
=Morty=
Croconaw L23-24 @ Mint Berry
Surf 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs both Haunters and 3HKOs Gengar. Gengar and both Haunter outspeeds

Needs luck to sweep
=Chuck=
Feraligatr L30 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs back after a Leer

May need luck to sweep. Needs Pink Bow to reach a 3HKO on Poliwrath.
=Jasmine=
Feraligatr L30 @ MysticWater
MysticWater Surf has a very high roll to 1HKO the Magnemites and is close to 1HKOing Steelix

Needs MysticWater to sweep
=Pryce=
Feraligatr L30 @ MysticWater
Strength 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong. Dewgong outspeeds after an Icy Wind drop
MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Piloswine

Clean sweep
=Rival 4=
Feraligatr L33-34 @ Nevermeltice
Surf 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, 1HKOs Magnemite and is close to 1HKOing Haunter. Sneasel outspeeds
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 2HKOs Meganium

Can sweep barring hax. Needs Nevermeltice to reliably 2HKO Meganium, otherwise its a roll without it, might need luck around Meganium going for Reflect or PoisonPowder turn 1.
=Clair=
Feraligatr L38
Pink Bow Strength is super close to 3HKOing Kingdra. Kingdra 3HKOs back with Hyper Beam, almost 3HKOs back with 2 Dragonbreath into Hyper Beam
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Dragonairs

Beats the Dragonairs at best
=Rival 5=
Feraligatr L38-39 @ PRZCureBerry
Strength 1HKOs Kadabra
Surf 2HKOs Sneasel and Magneton puts Haunter in red. Sneasel outspeeds
With Rain Dance, Surf 1HKOs both Sneasel and Magneton
Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and is close to 2HKOing Meganium (even with Nevermeltice)

Can possibly sweep barring hax. Needs luck around Meganium not going for Razor Leaf turn 1. Needs PRZCureBerry/Rain Dance to beat Magneton

=Will=
Feraligatr L40 @ Bitter Berry
Ice Punch 2HKOs Exeggutor and both Xatus. L42 Xatu speedties
Surf 3HKOs Jynx
Strength 2HKOs Jynx (3HKOs if Exeggutor went for Reflect)

Beats 3 or 4 at best barring hax. Might only beat 2 if both L40 Xatu and Exeggutor went for Psychic turn 1
=Koga=
Feraligatr L40 @ MysticWater
MW Surf 2HKOs the bugs and 3HKOs Muk
With Rain Dance, MW Surf 2HKOs Muk, 1HKOs Ariados and is close to 1HKOing Venomoth and Forretress
Ice Punch is close to 2HKOing Crobat

Beats 3 or 4 at best barring hax
=Bruno=
Feraligatr L41 @ MysticWater
MW Surf 3HKOs Machamp, 1HKOs Onix and is close to 2HKOing the hitmons. Machamp 2HKOs back
With Rain Dance, it reliably 2HKOs the hitmons (they're still 2HKOed by Rain Surf into normal Surf)
Needs Rain Dance to reliably beat 4.
=Karen=
Feraligatr L41 @ MysticWater
With Rain Dance, Surf KOs Gengar after a Curse, and 1HKOs Murkrow and Houndoom. Feraligatr lives a Crunch after a Curse

Needs to set-up Rain Dance on Gengar to beat 3 (Gengar, Murkrow, Houndoom), and luck around Gengar actually going for Curse
=Lance=
Feraligatr L42 @ PRZCureBerry
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Dragonites. L50 Dragonite 2HKOs back, Thunder Dnite loves using Twave turn 1.
Surf puts Aero and Zard in red. Both outspeeds

You can only beat 2 at best (Thunder Dnite + either one of Blizzard Dnite, Aero, or Zard). You need to heal to possibly beat 3 or 4
Just wanted to point out one thing here. If you opt to do the Rage Strat with Croc, you need Clefairy to use Doubleslap at least up to 3-5 times. 5 is obviously the best one you would want. Any less and you just...don't have the HP to deal with Tank. It's a very inconsistent strat and you are better suited to using Fury Cutter for it which others would prefer for STAB such as Pinsir, Scyther, and Heracross as...well...they don't get Bug Stab main game or at all and it can get them some good MUs. Scyther has to wait til level 30 to get Wing Attack which is horrendous.
 
this isn't hugely impactful (and it may be applicable only to the virtual console version) but I've noticed in crystal that so long as you only have one non-mandatory phone number in your register and the time frame is correct to receive gifts it's very easy to obtain evolutionary stones without DST manipulation or RNG abuse, because every phone call check the game performs will only have one option to draw from and you're bound to hit gift at least once after a few received calls. by starting a new game on specific days it's quite feasible to set up a pokemon like arcanine with practically no sacrifice in time so long as you don't mind doing the early game in one stretch. I've done this with two different trainers in two different playthroughs and very easily obtained early fire stones and leaf stones respectively. this is most notable for allowing pre-whitney arcanine with very little backtracking, but also impacts viability of things like victreebel. I don't anticipate this information radically altering the tiering placement of anything but if people can replicate this and find it beneficial then it might help for some of the stone-restricted mons (with the biggest benefits being fire stone and leaf stone evos since they're the earliest ones you can take advantage of)

also another helpful feature of the vc version is that if you leave your ds closed for an extended period of time you'll often automatically receive a phone call the next time you reopen it and exit sleep mode

edit: just opened my ds to find a call from alan giving me a fire stone lol
 
Last edited:
this isn't hugely impactful (and it may be applicable only to the virtual console version) but I've noticed in crystal that so long as you only have one non-mandatory phone number in your register and the time frame is correct to receive gifts it's very easy to obtain evolutionary stones without DST manipulation or RNG abuse, because every phone call check the game performs will only have one option to draw from and you're bound to hit gift at least once after a few received calls. by starting a new game on specific days it's quite feasible to set up a pokemon like arcanine with practically no sacrifice in time so long as you don't mind doing the early game in one stretch. I've done this with two different trainers in two different playthroughs and very easily obtained early fire stones and leaf stones respectively. this is most notable for allowing pre-whitney arcanine with very little backtracking, but also impacts viability of things like victreebel. I don't anticipate this information radically altering the tiering placement of anything but if people can replicate this and find it beneficial then it might help for some of the stone-restricted mons (with the biggest benefits being fire stone and leaf stone evos since they're the earliest ones you can take advantage of)

also another helpful feature of the vc version is that if you leave your ds closed for an extended period of time you'll often automatically receive a phone call the next time you reopen it and exit sleep mode

edit: just opened my ds to find a call from alan giving me a fire stone lol
The DST Trick kinda trumps waiting tbh since the calls happen at random. I've not heard anything about forcing a call outside the DST Trick which is the most well known method. The issues I see here are "What is the timeframe, what day do I need to be on" etc. If that information can be expanded upon to give us a better or more clear way to use the Evo Stones, I am all for it.
 
Double Posting but I am placing things and getting this list done. Has been more of a headache as of late and just wish to have it done at this point.

First up: Placement movements

Chikorita is being moved from C -> D
Snubbull B -> C

Placements:

Geodude (Both) is B Tier
Gyarados is B Tier
Lapras is B Tier
Mankey is C Tier
Staryu (C) is B Tier
Nidoran (F) is C Tier
Pineco is D Tier
Yanma is E Tier
Wooper is C Tier
Eevee (Vaporeon) is B Tier
Jynx is in B Tier
Espeon is D Tier
Mareep is A Tier
Sudowoodo is D Tier
Chinchou is C Tier
Koffing is D Tier
Heracross is D Tier
Krabby is D Tier
Psyduck is B Tier
Sunkern is D Tier
Smeargle is E Tier
Aipom is C Tier
Sentret is B Tier
Girafarig is B Tier
Teddiursa (C) is A Tier
Magnemite is C Tier
Weedle is D Tier
Scyther (No Trade) is C Tier
All Baby Pokemon are E Tier
Ekans is D Tier

Mons that can be test to be placed:

Gastly (Trade)
Shellder (C)
Zubat
Seel
Venomoth (C)
Bellsprout (C or GS, does not matter)
Poliwrath
Rattata


I will make another post in the next few days to place the remaining clear ones and then begin testing the ones that need at least 1 more test to be placed.
 
Last edited:
Another thing that popped into my head in regard to the "only one S tier" thing is that in the Heartgold / SoulSilver in-game tier list, we similarly only had two Pokemon in S, those being Abra (Trade) and the Red Gyarados (Kadabra was in B). While HGSS as a remake does have gameplay changes like the physical / special split and better movepools, this indirectly suggests that the Pokemon available in Johto are weaksauce, a theory I subscribe to in both games for the most part.
 
Another thing that popped into my head in regard to the "only one S tier" thing is that in the Heartgold / SoulSilver in-game tier list, we similarly only had two Pokemon in S, those being Abra (Trade) and the Red Gyarados (Kadabra was in B). While HGSS as a remake does have gameplay changes like the physical / special split and better movepools, this indirectly suggests that the Pokemon available in Johto are weaksauce, a theory I subscribe to in both games for the most part.
It's not that the Pokemon are weak. It's that the game has some pretty bad issues in regards to level scaling with Gyms to Trainers. If the Trainers were around same level as the next Gym or close to, our levels would be able to help out a LOT more, but we end up underleveled at the endgame from about 3 to 10 levels starting at Will and ending at Lance. It just cascades into a level climb that only the best Pokemon like Zam or any B tier have hopes of clearing the game with relative ease and in a efficient timeframe.
 
Last edited:
Another thing that popped into my head in regard to the "only one S tier" thing is that in the Heartgold / SoulSilver in-game tier list, we similarly only had two Pokemon in S, those being Abra (Trade) and the Red Gyarados (Kadabra was in B). While HGSS as a remake does have gameplay changes like the physical / special split and better movepools, this indirectly suggests that the Pokemon available in Johto are weaksauce, a theory I subscribe to in both games for the most part.
FWIW regardless of game, I don't think there even should be many S tier placements in an in-game tier list in the first place. It literally falls outside the normal A-F hierarchy and should only be allotted to mons with literally exceptional performance. If I think of most Gens 1 - 5 games there tend to be only one to two S tiers (i.e. RSE Mudkip, Abra; DPPt Chimchar (if that)). Only in Gen 5 can I think of a game that warrants more than two S tier placements, and that speaks more to the exceptional broken-ess of certain mons in those games rather than a general rule across games.

So in the case of GSC, Abra being the only S tier doesn't seem like a huge stretch regardless of it being a Johto game. I for one think there's a substantial difference between it and Totodile's performance in this game. I mean there's an over 40 point gap in their base Special Attack alone even when just compared to Kadabra, with that stat being arguably the primary indicator of their performance in this game.
 
Double Posting but I am placing things and getting this list done. Has been more of a headache as of late and just wish to have it done at this point.

First up: Placement movements

Chikorita is being moved from C -> D
Snubbull B -> C

Placements:

Geodude (Both) is B Tier
Gyarados is B Tier
Lapras is B Tier
Mankey is C Tier
Staryu (C) is B Tier
Nidoran (F) is C Tier
Pineco is D Tier
Yanma is E Tier
Wooper is C Tier
Eevee (Vaporeon) is B Tier
Jynx is in B Tier
Espeon is D Tier
Mareep is A Tier
Sudowoodo is D Tier
Chinchou is C Tier
Koffing is D Tier
Heracross is D Tier
Krabby is D Tier
Psyduck is B Tier
Sunkern is D Tier
Smeargle is E Tier
Aipom is C Tier
Sentret is B Tier
Girafarig is B Tier
Teddiursa (C) is A Tier
Magnemite is C Tier
Weedle is D Tier
Scyther (No Trade) is C Tier
All Baby Pokemon are E Tier
Ekans is D Tier

Mons that can be test to be placed:

Gastly (Trade)
Shellder (C)
Zubat
Seel
Venomoth (C)
Bellsprout (C or GS, does not matter)
Poliwrath
Rattata


I will make another post in the next few days to place the remaining clear ones and then begin testing the ones that need at least 1 more test to be placed.
Agree with every placement with the exception of Girafarig, which I can get and won't contest. I'm especially happy to see Crystal Teddiursa in A-tier.

As for mons that can be test to be places, I'll link Shellder, Venomoth*, Bellsprout** and Poliwrath and will explain why I feel Gengar should be A-tier and why Zubat should be C-tier. The hyperlinked mon (except for Poliwrath) shouldn't be contested I think.

* I have logs here for the rival and Morty fight in Crystal version. Honestly, GS and Crystal version could get merged honestly. While the Crystal version is better because you can directly get a Venomoth, which is easier to train and has a strong performance, Venomoth is alright from Chuck onward. It wins against Chuck, beats the Seel line against Pryce, may 1V1 Kingdra or beat 2 Dragonair and does well against Koga and Bruno. This should be enough for D-tier tbh. Crystal version is for sure D-tier as you get these things along with a possible win against Morty.

** Just used Weepingbell recently so didn't link it but it doesn't differ too much from Victreebel. Anyway, it has a few good matchup including a Chuck win, good Pryce and Bruno performance and that should be enough for D-tier really. By the way, the Oddish line (with the exception of Bellossom, which is awful) should be in the same tier. They mostly do the same thing and Gloom/Vileplume are just as similar as Weepingbell and Victreebel. As for Bellossom, it doesn't have STAB poison nor the fight resistance, which is pretty much the only thing the Oddish and Bellsprout line have. In addition, you also need to find a Sun Stone, which takes a bit of time.


Gengar should 100% be A-tier. While the Gastly phase is annoying, it can at least win against Bugsy and provide support with Curse and Hypnosis on Whitney's Miltank. Most things at this point use normal-type or resisted moves so they can't really threaten Gastly. Med slow growth rate also means it levels up pretty quickly and you can get a Gengar by Morty. While the Morty fight isn't perfect, Gengar has realistic chance to beat Gastly + both Haunter or Gastly + Gengar. After that fight, Gengar is essentially a slightly worse Kadabra. It easily wins against gyms 5/6/7. While it can't defeat Clair by itself, it still beats the 3 Dragonair in 3 turns and force Kingdra to heal. Will is a great fight, where Gengar should defeat everything but Exeggutor, which is a roll. Koga can result in a sweep if you're willing to take time to defeat Muk (Gengar will beat the rest). Bruno is mostly average but at least Gengar kos 3 mons (Lee, Chan and Onix). Karen is rather bad but at least Gengar wins against VIleplume, Gengar and Murkrow. Lance was truely amazing and Gengar could take down in one hit Gyarados and the three Dragonite. Then, it can choose to defeat either Aerodactyl or Charizard while doing a half to the other.

Honestly, having a performance nearly on par with Kadabra (trading the ability to beat Jasmine's Steelix and Aero/Zard from Lance for a better Bruno, faster Koga and somewhat better Will) after Morty is enough for A-tier. Much like the Abra line, Gengar just needs the cheap elementary punch TMs as well as the unconsted Shadow Ball TM to suceed. It's truely great in every fight, with the possible exceptions of Bruno and Karen and is extremly easy to train, mostly thanks to the med slow growth rate. Clair and especially Lance felt really great and doing well against the former while nearly winning against the latter was incredible.


As for Zubat, it's honestly better in practise than on paper. It fares well against Bugsy thanks to its double-resistance to Fury Cutter. Morty is pretty good as Golbat outspeeds everything and has Bite. Chuck results in a win and Golbat can beat the Seel line against Pryce. Crobat is also able to 1v1 Clair's Kingdra and has a mostly decent E4. While Will is bad, Crobat can beat Xatu + Jynx, can defeat everything but Forretress against Koga, all but Onix against Bruno and VIleplume+Murkrow+Gengar against Karren. Bruno is especially good because outside of Kadabra/Alakazam, Pidgeot and Dodrio, it's hard to find that beats all the fighters and Onix is easy to defeat anyway. All in all, I'd say that early and easy access, being fairly easy to train with Swift, consistent perfomance with the exception of Whitney, Jasmine and Lance, outright winning against Chuck and faring extremly well against Bruno is enough for C-tier as opposed to D-tier.

I'm fairly uncertain about Poliwrath between B- and C-tier and having read the thread, it was the same for Ryota and DrumstickGaming.

Now, onto the run, just finished it and each mon were about as good as expected.

Whitney (20) : Headbutt 3HKOes Clefairy. Miltank takes nothing and 2HKOes with Rollout.

Rival (23) : Foresight+Headbutt 3HKOes Haunter (2HKOes after Curse). Flee Magnemite. PB Headbutt 4HKOes Bayleef. Yanma should beat these 3.

Morty (25) : Foresight Haunter #1 and OHKO with Headbutt after it uses Curse. Flee Gengar. Use Foresight + 2 PB Headbutt to deal with Haunter #2.

Chuck (30) : Headbutt 3HKOes Primeape and 5HKOes Poliwrath. Beating Primeape isn't a problem but it's a much harder task for Poliwrath. Surf 2HKOes Yanma and Leer + Fury Attack into Surf koes. Thus, Yanma needs like 3 turns without getting hit by Poliwrath (be it by Hypnosis miss or flinch). Usually, Yanma should take down Primeape and do around half to Poliwrath.

Jasmine (30) : lol no, Headbutt only 6HKOes Magnemite.

Pryce (30) : Headbutt 3HKOes Seel, which should get defeated. It's a range to 4HKO Dewgong with PB Headbutt but it 2HKOes with Aurora Beam, meaning you need to flinch twice to defeat it. Piloswine requires like 10 Headbutt to ko and OHKOes with Blizzard. Realistically, Yanma can only beat Seel, as even with 2 flinches against Dewgong, Seel will put it to Aurora Beam range.

Rival (33) : Meganium 3HKOes with Body Slam and takes nothing from Hedbutt. Golbat is 4HKOed by Headbutt and 2HKOes with Wing Attack and will need 2 flinches. Magnemite is a no. Sneasel is 3HKOed by Headbutt. Haunter is 2HKOed by Headbutt after Foresight. Thing is after 3 hits from Sneasel and a Shadow Ball from Haunter (or Curse), Yanma will be koed so it can only defeat one of them.

Clair (38) : You need Pink Bow as otherwise you miss the 3HKO on Dragonair. Even then, only the Surf-Dragonair is beatable. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam 2HKOes. Even Surf from the first Dragonair 3HKOes so you can't afford one turn of paralysis to defeat it. Kingdra 2HKOes with Surf and needs like 10 Headbutt.

Rival (40) : Outspeed and 2HKO Sneasel with Wing Attack. Avoid Golbat as it's only 3HKOed and it 2HKOes with Wing Attack. Meganium and Haunter are 2HKOed by Wing Attack while Kadabra is OHKOed. Avoid Magneton. Alright as Yanma beats Sneasel+Meganium+Kadabra+Haunter.

Will (40) : Psychic from everything 2HKOes and Ice Punch from Jynx OHKOes. You can try to defeat a Xatu with a Bitter Berry IF it goes for Confuse Ray, outspeeding and 3HKOing with Wing Attack while taking a Psychic. The most reliable thing is to 2HKO Exeggutor with Wing Attack while barely living a Psychic. Also, you can try SunnyBeam and 2HKO Slowbro with it. You rely on Slowbro using Curse tho (it does like 3/4 of the time).

Koga (40) : 2HKOes Ariados and Venomoth with Wing Attack and that's it... Forretress is 6HKOed by Wing Attack and 4HKOes with Swift, not to mention it can use Explosion. Crobat 2HKOes with Wing Attack. Muk 2HKOes with Sludge Bomb and may use Minimize and Acid Armor.

Bruno (40) : Outspeed and 2HKO the hitmon with Wing Attack while living 2 Quick Attack + Fire Punch + Double Kick / High Jump Kick. Use Bitter Berry against Swagger and you get 3 kos. Wing Attack 3HKOes Machamp (takes 5 hits with Full Restore) and it OHKOes with Rock Slide.

Karen (40) : It 2HKOes Vileplume with SB Wing Attack. It also outspeeds and 2HKOes Murkrow with SB Wing Attack which only 2HKOes with Feint Attack. It can't take down both tho as Vileplume will paralyse and Sharp Beak is needed for the 2HKO on each mon. Gengar will use Destiny Bond as it outspeeds and is only 2HKOed after Curse.

Lance (40) : lol no.


Morty (25) : Speed tie Gastly #1 and OHKO it and both Haunter with Magnitude. Gengar needs Magnitude 7 to be OHKOed.

Chuck (30) : 2HKOes Primeape usually. Poliwrath outspeeds and OHKOes with Surf.

Jasmine (31) : Magnitude OHKOes Magnemite. Steelix only 2HKOes with Iron Tail but you need specific Magnitude number to win against it (Magnitude 7 + Magnitude 9/10 or Magnitude 6 + Magnitude 10). Golem should beat the Magnemite and force Steelix to heal.

Pryce (31) : 2HKOes Seel with Magnitude. Actually lives 2 Aurora Beam from Dewgong and 2HKOes with Rock Throw. Golem can then outspeed and use Self-Destruct on Piloswine. It can't defeat the whole team tho as Seel using Icy Wind means Piloswine will outspeed but it"s still pretty good.

Rival (33) : 2HKOes Golbat with Rock Throw (be wary of confusion and flinch tho). OHKO Sneasel with Rock Throw and Haunter/Magnemite with Magnitude. Golem should beat these 4.

Clair (38) : Surf OHKOes on roll. Ice Beam. Dragon Breath only 5HKOes so Golem should have no problem to win against the Thunderbolt Dragonair. Ice Beam only 3HKOes so Golem can defeat it if it gets at least Magnitude 7 + Magnitude 6. Kingdra is a no.

Rival (40) : Rollout 2HKOes Sneasel and Golbat (which may prove to be annoying with Confuse Ray and Bite) even if it's disrupted. Magnitude OHKOes Kadabra, Haunter and Magneton. Golem should have no trouble beating these 5 mons.

Will (41) : Psychic from Xatu 3HKOes. You can try to 2HKO it with Rollout/Rock Throw. Jynx 2HKOes with Ice Punch and is OHKOed by Earthquake but isn't an easy target due to Lovely Kiss. Slowbro is 2HKOed by Soft Sand Earthquake (3HKOes if it Curses) while it only 3HKOes with Psychic. Golem should claim a kill but it requires insane luck to defeat 2 mons.

Koga (41) : Rock Throw 2HKOes Ariados and Venomoth. You can Curlout on Forretress as it doesn't threaten. It takes 3 Curlout to beat it, the 4th hit kills Muk. 5th hit should ko Crobat. Golem outspeeds and OHKOes Muk with Earthquake. It's not hard to take down the bugs and Muk but Crobat may prove to be an issue due to Double Team. Still, that's a pretty good matchup and OHKOing Muk feels great.

Bruno (42) : Earthquake OHKOes Hitmontop underground. Then, Golem can OHKO Hitmonlee with Earthquake. Afterwards, it lives 2 Mach Punch from Hitmonchan and 2HKOes it with Earthquake. Machamp outspeeds and nearly OHKOes with Crosschop. You can defeat the Onix instead of Lee but beating the 3 Hitmon is more valuable. Pretty good as Golem beats the hitmon despite the type disadvantage.

Karen (42) : Avoid Umbreon as it outspeeds and while EQ may 2HKO it's going to hax. Golem takes Crunch + Feint Attack and can defeat Houndoom + Murkrow with Earthquake and Hard Stone Rock Throw respectively and it can also take down Gengar, OHKOing with Earthquake.

Lance (43) : Curlout takes 3 turns (1 Defense Curl and 2 Rollout) to ko Thunder Dragonite while it only 4HKOes with Twister (flinching can make things harder tho). Otherwise, Golem defeats Aerodactyl +Charizard, 2HKOing both with Rollout while living 2 hits from Aero and 2 Flamethrower.


Chuck (30) : Peck 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Surf from Poliwrath 3HKOes. Xatu is favored but you need to get bad AI as Fury Swipes (with at least 3 hits) and 2 Surf will kill. Hypnosis can also be an issue.

Jasmine (30) : lol no. Night Shade 2HKOes Magnemite but it OHKOes with Thunderbolt. Steelix is only 4HKOed, can heal and 2HKOes with Iron Tail.

Pryce (30) : Fly 2HKOes Seel and 3HKOes Dewgong. Dewgong 2HKOes with Aurora Beam so Xatu won't beat it. Piloswine OHKOes with Blizzard and needs 5 Fly to be koed considering the Hyper Potion. Xatu will only defeat Seel

Rival (33) : Outspeed and Fly 2HKOes Golbat (good luck hitting through confusion tho). Fly 2HKOes Meganium (through Reflect) and Sneasel. Haunter is OHKOed on roll. The problem is that Bite from Golbat and 2 Feint Attack koes Xatu so it shouldn't beat more than 3 mons IF lucky.

Clair (38) : Fly 2HKOes on rolls, SB guarantees the 2HKO but it means you can't use PRZCureBerry. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt 2HKOes. Xatu should beat the Surf-Dragonair at full health if it gets the roll and then barring major luck will fall to the second Dragonair. It's going to paralyse and then attack and you need to hit Fly while being paralysed to defeat it. Kingdra requires 5 Fly and 2HKOes with Surf, not to mention that Smokescreen is way too annoying.

Rival (40) : Outspeed and 2HKO Sneasel with Fly. 2HKO Meganium with Fly. You can theorically defeat Golbat, 2HKOing with Fly but it's a range without Sharp Beak and Confuse Ray is annoying. OHKOes Kadabra and Haunter with SB Fly. Pretty good as without Confuse Ray unluck, Xatu can beat all but Magneton.

Will (40) : Fly is a roll to 2HKO Xatu #1 with a Bitter Berry and 3HKOes Xatu #2. It also 2HKOes Exeggutor. It's better to defeat Exeggutor and it's the only reliable ko. Jynx OHKOes with Ice Punch and Slowbro is too bulky.

Koga (40) : SB Fly is a roll on Ariados and OHKOes Venomoth. Muk and Crobat are unbeatable when using a 2-turn attack. Forretress will explode as you use Night Shade.

Bruno (40) : Peck 3HKOes Top. SB Fly is a roll on Chan and OHKOes Lee. Xatu easily defeats the 3 Hitmon. Onix uses Sandstorm so you can't use SunnyBeam. Machamp is 2HKOed by Fly and 2HKOes with Rock Slide but it has a Full Restore and you rely on the AI not using it to beat it.

Karen (40) : Equip PRZCureBerry. Outspeed and 2HKO Vileplume and Murkrow while living Petal Dance + Feint Attack. Fly doesn't OHKO Gengar after Curse so there is not point trying to defeat it.

Lance (40) : Can beat Gyarados if the AI is bad. Use Night Shade while Gyarados sets up Rain and from there, Fly 3HKOes. If Gyarados uses Flail, then you can use Fly twice and defeat it as even Hyper Beam won't ko after Flail. It's by no mean reliable tho and Rain Surf will 2HKO Xatu. Xatu can't do anything against the rest. LVL 47 Dragonite are like 5HKOed by Fly and Thunder/Blizzard OHKOes while lvl 50 2HKOes with Outrage. Charizard is outsped and 3HKOed but it 2HKOes with Flamethrower.

Chuck (30) : If rollout hits 5 times, Primeape can be defeated, it won't be easy tho. Poliwrath nearly 2HKOes with Surf and every move it has is going to be annoying.

Jasmine (30) : It's impossible to hit Rollout considering Magnemite spams Thunder Wave and Supersonic, not to mention resisting to Rollout. Steelix takes nothing and 2HKOes with Iron Tail. At best, Shuckle will weaken a Magnemite and that's about it.

Pryce (30) : 4 Rollout kills Seel, 3 Rollout is enough and it requires 5 hits to beat Piloswine. The problem is that you need to hit. Usually, Shuckle should be able to get past Seel, sometimes Piloswine (that is sent afterwards) and won't manage to beat Dewgong. Still alright, as Shuckle can claim 2 kos.

Rival (33) : Rollout 3HKOes Golbat but it's impossible to hit considering Confuse Ray and Bite flinching. You can't defeat Meganium due to Poison Powder, Reflect and its bulk. Rollout should 3HKO Haunter and Sneasel, the only mons beatable here.

Clair (38) : If you get really lucky, you can defeat a non-Surf Dragonair with 4 Rollout. It's really hard to manage to use Rollout when Dragonair use Thunder Wave and even Dragon Breath may paralyse. Surf 2HKOes Shuckle and it does nothing to KIngdra.

Rival (40) : 3HKOes Sneasel with Rollout, then the 4th and 5th hit will be enough to take down Magneton. It's better to avoid Haunter due to Confuse Ray and Curse. Rollout 3HKOes Golbat but avoid it due to Confuse Ray. Rollout 3HKOes Kadabra. It takes 5 rollout to beat Meganium but it may use Reflect and has Poison Powder. If lucky, Shuckle can beat Sneasel, Magneton and Kadabra. It needs to hit tho.

Will (40) : Psychic from all except Exeggutor 4HKOes. Rollout 3HKOes Xatu, which is beatable with a Bitter Berry if you get lucky. Avoid Exeggutor as it 3HKOes and has Reflect and Leech Seed. Jynx is 3HKOed by Rollout and isn't hard to defeat due to bad AI (it somehow likes to use Doubleslap). Slowbro is surprisingly beatable with 7 rollout if you don't miss, which is feasible as it doesn't attack too often. Shuckle should just beat 1 mon at best here.

Koga (40) : Forretress is defeatable with repeated Rollout as it barely threatens. It seems to use Protect after the third hit. 5 Rollout with 3 hits each were enough to win against it. Ariados, Crobat and Muk are very hard to defeat due to outspeeding and evasion. Rollout theorically 3HKOes Venomoth but between Supersonic and Toxic, it's hard to defeat it.

Bruno (40) : Hitmonchan is 5HKOed by Rollout and only 8HKOes with Mach Punch, if you it you may win against it. Hitmontop has Dig, Machamp 2HKOes, Onix takes nothing and Hitmonlee 4HKOes and may use Swagger.

Karen (40) : If Vileplume insteadly goes for Petal Dance, you can 4HKO it with Rollout and then proceed to ko Gengar. You need to hit tho as otherwise Vileplume will likely take down Shuckle and Stun Spore ruins everything. 3 Rollout also kills Murkrow, which should be defeatable. Houndoom is 3HKOed but 3HKOes with Flamethrower. Overall, Shuckle just beats reliably Murkrow and sometimes Vileplume.

Lance (40) : Gyarados 2HKOes with Rain Dance Surf and it takes 4 Rollout to ko it. It's possible to defeat a lvl 47 Dragonite with a PRZCureBerry if you get lucky and manage to hit 4 Rollout. Dragonite 4HKOes with Thunder so if you manage to dodge a Thunder/Blizzard and don't get paralysed you can potentially win. Rollout 3HKOes Charizard but it 3HKOes. Lvl 50 Dragonite 3HKOes with Outrage. Aerodactyl 2HKOes with Rock Slide. With good luck, Shuckle can defeat a lvl 47 Dragonite but that's it.


Yanma

This is obviously an E-tier and one of the worst mons I've ever used. Finding a Yanma isn't an easy task as it's a 1% encounter and you may need swarm to find it. Yanma doesn't even have a STAB until Wing Attack at level 37. Training Yanma was actually alright when caught as Headbutt is pretty strong early on but by the mid to late game, Yanma struggles to even 2HKO foes. Performance-wise, Yanma was obviously bad, with its only accomplishment being taking down both Haunter against Morty thanks to Foresight, defeating Rival's Meganium in the last fight, Will's Exeggutor, the Hitmon against Bruno and Karen's Vileplume. All other kos Yanma get are from mons that are always free, like Pryce's Dewgong, Chuck's Primeape etc... It's even worse in GS where it doens't have Wing Attack and won't be able to achieve its few perks (defeating rival's Meganium and the 3 hitmon). So, yeah E-tier, it's hard to find and train and barely does anything relevant in battle.

Golem

I used it to see the differences between it and Graveler and they are mostly minors. I noted these things on Golem compared to Graveler :
- Golem can live an Iron Tail against Jasmine's Steelix, which doesn't mean much as it needs to get the perfect Magnitude number to defeat it.
- Golem can take 2 Aurora Beam from Pryce's Dewgong and can thus 2HKO it with Rock Throw and OHKO Piloswine with Self-Destruct. Graveler can only defeat Seel+Piloswine.
- Survive 2 Psychic from Xatu #2 from Will, 1 Ice Punch from Jynx (and you OHKO back with Earthquake) and 2 Psychic from Slowbro (while 2HKOing it with Soft Sand Earthquake)
- Survive High Jump Kick from Hitmonlee + 2 Mach Punch from Hitmonchan against Bruno
- Survive Feint Attack from Murkrow + Crunch from Houndoom against Karen
- Survive 2 Flamethrower from Aerodactyl + 2 hits from Aerodactyl, meaning it can take down both. Additionally, Golem may potential 1v1 the Thunder-Dragonite.

I'd say the main points from this list would be defeating Pryce's Dewgong, a mon against Will, Lee+Chan against Bruno, Murkrow+Houndoom vs Karen and Charizard+Aero against Lance. Still, it doesn't warrant a tier difference, defeating the 3 hitmon instead of 2 is cool and so is defeating the 3 Hitmon and Charizard but it's not game changing and honestly Karen's Murkrow is easy to beat most of the time.

As for tiering, just like Graveler, B-tier is fine for it. It's excellent for the first 4 gyms (and winning against Bugsy and especially Whitney is amazing) and has a few uses afterwards. It can take down a few mons, most notably Karen's Houndoom and is pretty good for Koga and Lance.

Natu

Again, this is an easy E-tier. Natu isn't funny to catch as it's available in a remote area. Training it was awful, it has no STAB until it learns Fly after Chuck. Even then, the move is fairly weak and doesn't even always OHKO Rival's Haunter in underground fight (which says a lot). I hardly remember Natu/Xatu being able to OHKO an opposite foe, resulting in many trips to the pokecenter. It also barely had any use in major fights really. It even struggles to defeat Meganium + Sneasel against Rival. Its only true great performance were possibly defeating Chuck if you don't get too unlucky, beating Meganium from Rival and the 3 Hitmon from Bruno.

Shuckle

An obvious E-tier as well. The only positive thing I can say about Shuckle is that it has boosted exp and that Rollout can be strong if it hits. Getting Shuckle to the right level isn't an easy task, everything outspeeds it to the point it can't be the first mon on your team as you won't be able to run away from wild mons. Rollout takes several turns to gain power and you Shuckle will be easily worn down. Performant-wise, except for defeating Primeape against Chuck, Sneasel/Haunter/Kadabra (which are always free anyway) and taking down 2 Pryce Pokemon, Shuckle barely did anything. Even then, Rollout has to hit and a single miss may ruin everything. In my logs, I mentionned specific conditions Shuckle needs to defeat just a single mon. It takes lots of time and even then, the unaccuracy is going to hurt and Shuckle is very prone to getting haxxed.


Next run is going to be Seel/Lickitung/trade Dodrio/VR Rhydon. I expect D-/C-tier for Seel (as it comes late but STAB Ice Beam is great), E-/D-tier for Lickitung, D-tier for Dodrio and E-/D-tier for Rhydon.
 
Agree with every placement with the exception of Girafarig, which I can get and won't contest. I'm especially happy to see Crystal Teddiursa in A-tier.

As for mons that can be test to be places, I'll link Shellder, Venomoth*, Bellsprout** and Poliwrath and will explain why I feel Gengar should be A-tier and why Zubat should be C-tier. The hyperlinked mon (except for Poliwrath) shouldn't be contested I think.

* I have logs here for the rival and Morty fight in Crystal version. Honestly, GS and Crystal version could get merged honestly. While the Crystal version is better because you can directly get a Venomoth, which is easier to train and has a strong performance, Venomoth is alright from Chuck onward. It wins against Chuck, beats the Seel line against Pryce, may 1V1 Kingdra or beat 2 Dragonair and does well against Koga and Bruno. This should be enough for D-tier tbh. Crystal version is for sure D-tier as you get these things along with a possible win against Morty.

** Just used Weepingbell recently so didn't link it but it doesn't differ too much from Victreebel. Anyway, it has a few good matchup including a Chuck win, good Pryce and Bruno performance and that should be enough for D-tier really. By the way, the Oddish line (with the exception of Bellossom, which is awful) should be in the same tier. They mostly do the same thing and Gloom/Vileplume are just as similar as Weepingbell and Victreebel. As for Bellossom, it doesn't have STAB poison nor the fight resistance, which is pretty much the only thing the Oddish and Bellsprout line have. In addition, you also need to find a Sun Stone, which takes a bit of time.


Gengar should 100% be A-tier. While the Gastly phase is annoying, it can at least win against Bugsy and provide support with Curse and Hypnosis on Whitney's Miltank. Most things at this point use normal-type or resisted moves so they can't really threaten Gastly. Med slow growth rate also means it levels up pretty quickly and you can get a Gengar by Morty. While the Morty fight isn't perfect, Gengar has realistic chance to beat Gastly + both Haunter or Gastly + Gengar. After that fight, Gengar is essentially a slightly worse Kadabra. It easily wins against gyms 5/6/7. While it can't defeat Clair by itself, it still beats the 3 Dragonair in 3 turns and force Kingdra to heal. Will is a great fight, where Gengar should defeat everything but Exeggutor, which is a roll. Koga can result in a sweep if you're willing to take time to defeat Muk (Gengar will beat the rest). Bruno is mostly average but at least Gengar kos 3 mons (Lee, Chan and Onix). Karen is rather bad but at least Gengar wins against VIleplume, Gengar and Murkrow. Lance was truely amazing and Gengar could take down in one hit Gyarados and the three Dragonite. Then, it can choose to defeat either Aerodactyl or Charizard while doing a half to the other.

Honestly, having a performance nearly on par with Kadabra (trading the ability to beat Jasmine's Steelix and Aero/Zard from Lance for a better Bruno, faster Koga and somewhat better Will) after Morty is enough for A-tier. Much like the Abra line, Gengar just needs the cheap elementary punch TMs as well as the unconsted Shadow Ball TM to suceed. It's truely great in every fight, with the possible exceptions of Bruno and Karen and is extremly easy to train, mostly thanks to the med slow growth rate. Clair and especially Lance felt really great and doing well against the former while nearly winning against the latter was incredible.


As for Zubat, it's honestly better in practise than on paper. It fares well against Bugsy thanks to its double-resistance to Fury Cutter. Morty is pretty good as Golbat outspeeds everything and has Bite. Chuck results in a win and Golbat can beat the Seel line against Pryce. Crobat is also able to 1v1 Clair's Kingdra and has a mostly decent E4. While Will is bad, Crobat can beat Xatu + Jynx, can defeat everything but Forretress against Koga, all but Onix against Bruno and VIleplume+Murkrow+Gengar against Karren. Bruno is especially good because outside of Kadabra/Alakazam, Pidgeot and Dodrio, it's hard to find that beats all the fighters and Onix is easy to defeat anyway. All in all, I'd say that early and easy access, being fairly easy to train with Swift, consistent perfomance with the exception of Whitney, Jasmine and Lance, outright winning against Chuck and faring extremly well against Bruno is enough for C-tier as opposed to D-tier.

I'm fairly uncertain about Poliwrath between B- and C-tier and having read the thread, it was the same for Ryota and DrumstickGaming.

Now, onto the run, just finished it and each mon were about as good as expected.

Whitney (20) : Headbutt 3HKOes Clefairy. Miltank takes nothing and 2HKOes with Rollout.

Rival (23) : Foresight+Headbutt 3HKOes Haunter (2HKOes after Curse). Flee Magnemite. PB Headbutt 4HKOes Bayleef. Yanma should beat these 3.

Morty (25) : Foresight Haunter #1 and OHKO with Headbutt after it uses Curse. Flee Gengar. Use Foresight + 2 PB Headbutt to deal with Haunter #2.

Chuck (30) : Headbutt 3HKOes Primeape and 5HKOes Poliwrath. Beating Primeape isn't a problem but it's a much harder task for Poliwrath. Surf 2HKOes Yanma and Leer + Fury Attack into Surf koes. Thus, Yanma needs like 3 turns without getting hit by Poliwrath (be it by Hypnosis miss or flinch). Usually, Yanma should take down Primeape and do around half to Poliwrath.

Jasmine (30) : lol no, Headbutt only 6HKOes Magnemite.

Pryce (30) : Headbutt 3HKOes Seel, which should get defeated. It's a range to 4HKO Dewgong with PB Headbutt but it 2HKOes with Aurora Beam, meaning you need to flinch twice to defeat it. Piloswine requires like 10 Headbutt to ko and OHKOes with Blizzard. Realistically, Yanma can only beat Seel, as even with 2 flinches against Dewgong, Seel will put it to Aurora Beam range.

Rival (33) : Meganium 3HKOes with Body Slam and takes nothing from Hedbutt. Golbat is 4HKOed by Headbutt and 2HKOes with Wing Attack and will need 2 flinches. Magnemite is a no. Sneasel is 3HKOed by Headbutt. Haunter is 2HKOed by Headbutt after Foresight. Thing is after 3 hits from Sneasel and a Shadow Ball from Haunter (or Curse), Yanma will be koed so it can only defeat one of them.

Clair (38) : You need Pink Bow as otherwise you miss the 3HKO on Dragonair. Even then, only the Surf-Dragonair is beatable. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam 2HKOes. Even Surf from the first Dragonair 3HKOes so you can't afford one turn of paralysis to defeat it. Kingdra 2HKOes with Surf and needs like 10 Headbutt.

Rival (40) : Outspeed and 2HKO Sneasel with Wing Attack. Avoid Golbat as it's only 3HKOed and it 2HKOes with Wing Attack. Meganium and Haunter are 2HKOed by Wing Attack while Kadabra is OHKOed. Avoid Magneton. Alright as Yanma beats Sneasel+Meganium+Kadabra+Haunter.

Will (40) : Psychic from everything 2HKOes and Ice Punch from Jynx OHKOes. You can try to defeat a Xatu with a Bitter Berry IF it goes for Confuse Ray, outspeeding and 3HKOing with Wing Attack while taking a Psychic. The most reliable thing is to 2HKO Exeggutor with Wing Attack while barely living a Psychic. Also, you can try SunnyBeam and 2HKO Slowbro with it. You rely on Slowbro using Curse tho (it does like 3/4 of the time).

Koga (40) : 2HKOes Ariados and Venomoth with Wing Attack and that's it... Forretress is 6HKOed by Wing Attack and 4HKOes with Swift, not to mention it can use Explosion. Crobat 2HKOes with Wing Attack. Muk 2HKOes with Sludge Bomb and may use Minimize and Acid Armor.

Bruno (40) : Outspeed and 2HKO the hitmon with Wing Attack while living 2 Quick Attack + Fire Punch + Double Kick / High Jump Kick. Use Bitter Berry against Swagger and you get 3 kos. Wing Attack 3HKOes Machamp (takes 5 hits with Full Restore) and it OHKOes with Rock Slide.

Karen (40) : It 2HKOes Vileplume with SB Wing Attack. It also outspeeds and 2HKOes Murkrow with SB Wing Attack which only 2HKOes with Feint Attack. It can't take down both tho as Vileplume will paralyse and Sharp Beak is needed for the 2HKO on each mon. Gengar will use Destiny Bond as it outspeeds and is only 2HKOed after Curse.

Lance (40) : lol no.


Morty (25) : Speed tie Gastly #1 and OHKO it and both Haunter with Magnitude. Gengar needs Magnitude 7 to be OHKOed.

Chuck (30) : 2HKOes Primeape usually. Poliwrath outspeeds and OHKOes with Surf.

Jasmine (31) : Magnitude OHKOes Magnemite. Steelix only 2HKOes with Iron Tail but you need specific Magnitude number to win against it (Magnitude 7 + Magnitude 9/10 or Magnitude 6 + Magnitude 10). Golem should beat the Magnemite and force Steelix to heal.

Pryce (31) : 2HKOes Seel with Magnitude. Actually lives 2 Aurora Beam from Dewgong and 2HKOes with Rock Throw. Golem can then outspeed and use Self-Destruct on Piloswine. It can't defeat the whole team tho as Seel using Icy Wind means Piloswine will outspeed but it"s still pretty good.

Rival (33) : 2HKOes Golbat with Rock Throw (be wary of confusion and flinch tho). OHKO Sneasel with Rock Throw and Haunter/Magnemite with Magnitude. Golem should beat these 4.

Clair (38) : Surf OHKOes on roll. Ice Beam. Dragon Breath only 5HKOes so Golem should have no problem to win against the Thunderbolt Dragonair. Ice Beam only 3HKOes so Golem can defeat it if it gets at least Magnitude 7 + Magnitude 6. Kingdra is a no.

Rival (40) : Rollout 2HKOes Sneasel and Golbat (which may prove to be annoying with Confuse Ray and Bite) even if it's disrupted. Magnitude OHKOes Kadabra, Haunter and Magneton. Golem should have no trouble beating these 5 mons.

Will (41) : Psychic from Xatu 3HKOes. You can try to 2HKO it with Rollout/Rock Throw. Jynx 2HKOes with Ice Punch and is OHKOed by Earthquake but isn't an easy target due to Lovely Kiss. Slowbro is 2HKOed by Soft Sand Earthquake (3HKOes if it Curses) while it only 3HKOes with Psychic. Golem should claim a kill but it requires insane luck to defeat 2 mons.

Koga (41) : Rock Throw 2HKOes Ariados and Venomoth. You can Curlout on Forretress as it doesn't threaten. It takes 3 Curlout to beat it, the 4th hit kills Muk. 5th hit should ko Crobat. Golem outspeeds and OHKOes Muk with Earthquake. It's not hard to take down the bugs and Muk but Crobat may prove to be an issue due to Double Team. Still, that's a pretty good matchup and OHKOing Muk feels great.

Bruno (42) : Earthquake OHKOes Hitmontop underground. Then, Golem can OHKO Hitmonlee with Earthquake. Afterwards, it lives 2 Mach Punch from Hitmonchan and 2HKOes it with Earthquake. Machamp outspeeds and nearly OHKOes with Crosschop. You can defeat the Onix instead of Lee but beating the 3 Hitmon is more valuable. Pretty good as Golem beats the hitmon despite the type disadvantage.

Karen (42) : Avoid Umbreon as it outspeeds and while EQ may 2HKO it's going to hax. Golem takes Crunch + Feint Attack and can defeat Houndoom + Murkrow with Earthquake and Hard Stone Rock Throw respectively and it can also take down Gengar, OHKOing with Earthquake.

Lance (43) : Curlout takes 3 turns (1 Defense Curl and 2 Rollout) to ko Thunder Dragonite while it only 4HKOes with Twister (flinching can make things harder tho). Otherwise, Golem defeats Aerodactyl +Charizard, 2HKOing both with Rollout while living 2 hits from Aero and 2 Flamethrower.


Chuck (30) : Peck 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Surf from Poliwrath 3HKOes. Xatu is favored but you need to get bad AI as Fury Swipes (with at least 3 hits) and 2 Surf will kill. Hypnosis can also be an issue.

Jasmine (30) : lol no. Night Shade 2HKOes Magnemite but it OHKOes with Thunderbolt. Steelix is only 4HKOed, can heal and 2HKOes with Iron Tail.

Pryce (30) : Fly 2HKOes Seel and 3HKOes Dewgong. Dewgong 2HKOes with Aurora Beam so Xatu won't beat it. Piloswine OHKOes with Blizzard and needs 5 Fly to be koed considering the Hyper Potion. Xatu will only defeat Seel

Rival (33) : Outspeed and Fly 2HKOes Golbat (good luck hitting through confusion tho). Fly 2HKOes Meganium (through Reflect) and Sneasel. Haunter is OHKOed on roll. The problem is that Bite from Golbat and 2 Feint Attack koes Xatu so it shouldn't beat more than 3 mons IF lucky.

Clair (38) : Fly 2HKOes on rolls, SB guarantees the 2HKO but it means you can't use PRZCureBerry. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt 2HKOes. Xatu should beat the Surf-Dragonair at full health if it gets the roll and then barring major luck will fall to the second Dragonair. It's going to paralyse and then attack and you need to hit Fly while being paralysed to defeat it. Kingdra requires 5 Fly and 2HKOes with Surf, not to mention that Smokescreen is way too annoying.

Rival (40) : Outspeed and 2HKO Sneasel with Fly. 2HKO Meganium with Fly. You can theorically defeat Golbat, 2HKOing with Fly but it's a range without Sharp Beak and Confuse Ray is annoying. OHKOes Kadabra and Haunter with SB Fly. Pretty good as without Confuse Ray unluck, Xatu can beat all but Magneton.

Will (40) : Fly is a roll to 2HKO Xatu #1 with a Bitter Berry and 3HKOes Xatu #2. It also 2HKOes Exeggutor. It's better to defeat Exeggutor and it's the only reliable ko. Jynx OHKOes with Ice Punch and Slowbro is too bulky.

Koga (40) : SB Fly is a roll on Ariados and OHKOes Venomoth. Muk and Crobat are unbeatable when using a 2-turn attack. Forretress will explode as you use Night Shade.

Bruno (40) : Peck 3HKOes Top. SB Fly is a roll on Chan and OHKOes Lee. Xatu easily defeats the 3 Hitmon. Onix uses Sandstorm so you can't use SunnyBeam. Machamp is 2HKOed by Fly and 2HKOes with Rock Slide but it has a Full Restore and you rely on the AI not using it to beat it.

Karen (40) : Equip PRZCureBerry. Outspeed and 2HKO Vileplume and Murkrow while living Petal Dance + Feint Attack. Fly doesn't OHKO Gengar after Curse so there is not point trying to defeat it.

Lance (40) : Can beat Gyarados if the AI is bad. Use Night Shade while Gyarados sets up Rain and from there, Fly 3HKOes. If Gyarados uses Flail, then you can use Fly twice and defeat it as even Hyper Beam won't ko after Flail. It's by no mean reliable tho and Rain Surf will 2HKO Xatu. Xatu can't do anything against the rest. LVL 47 Dragonite are like 5HKOed by Fly and Thunder/Blizzard OHKOes while lvl 50 2HKOes with Outrage. Charizard is outsped and 3HKOed but it 2HKOes with Flamethrower.

Chuck (30) : If rollout hits 5 times, Primeape can be defeated, it won't be easy tho. Poliwrath nearly 2HKOes with Surf and every move it has is going to be annoying.

Jasmine (30) : It's impossible to hit Rollout considering Magnemite spams Thunder Wave and Supersonic, not to mention resisting to Rollout. Steelix takes nothing and 2HKOes with Iron Tail. At best, Shuckle will weaken a Magnemite and that's about it.

Pryce (30) : 4 Rollout kills Seel, 3 Rollout is enough and it requires 5 hits to beat Piloswine. The problem is that you need to hit. Usually, Shuckle should be able to get past Seel, sometimes Piloswine (that is sent afterwards) and won't manage to beat Dewgong. Still alright, as Shuckle can claim 2 kos.

Rival (33) : Rollout 3HKOes Golbat but it's impossible to hit considering Confuse Ray and Bite flinching. You can't defeat Meganium due to Poison Powder, Reflect and its bulk. Rollout should 3HKO Haunter and Sneasel, the only mons beatable here.

Clair (38) : If you get really lucky, you can defeat a non-Surf Dragonair with 4 Rollout. It's really hard to manage to use Rollout when Dragonair use Thunder Wave and even Dragon Breath may paralyse. Surf 2HKOes Shuckle and it does nothing to KIngdra.

Rival (40) : 3HKOes Sneasel with Rollout, then the 4th and 5th hit will be enough to take down Magneton. It's better to avoid Haunter due to Confuse Ray and Curse. Rollout 3HKOes Golbat but avoid it due to Confuse Ray. Rollout 3HKOes Kadabra. It takes 5 rollout to beat Meganium but it may use Reflect and has Poison Powder. If lucky, Shuckle can beat Sneasel, Magneton and Kadabra. It needs to hit tho.

Will (40) : Psychic from all except Exeggutor 4HKOes. Rollout 3HKOes Xatu, which is beatable with a Bitter Berry if you get lucky. Avoid Exeggutor as it 3HKOes and has Reflect and Leech Seed. Jynx is 3HKOed by Rollout and isn't hard to defeat due to bad AI (it somehow likes to use Doubleslap). Slowbro is surprisingly beatable with 7 rollout if you don't miss, which is feasible as it doesn't attack too often. Shuckle should just beat 1 mon at best here.

Koga (40) : Forretress is defeatable with repeated Rollout as it barely threatens. It seems to use Protect after the third hit. 5 Rollout with 3 hits each were enough to win against it. Ariados, Crobat and Muk are very hard to defeat due to outspeeding and evasion. Rollout theorically 3HKOes Venomoth but between Supersonic and Toxic, it's hard to defeat it.

Bruno (40) : Hitmonchan is 5HKOed by Rollout and only 8HKOes with Mach Punch, if you it you may win against it. Hitmontop has Dig, Machamp 2HKOes, Onix takes nothing and Hitmonlee 4HKOes and may use Swagger.

Karen (40) : If Vileplume insteadly goes for Petal Dance, you can 4HKO it with Rollout and then proceed to ko Gengar. You need to hit tho as otherwise Vileplume will likely take down Shuckle and Stun Spore ruins everything. 3 Rollout also kills Murkrow, which should be defeatable. Houndoom is 3HKOed but 3HKOes with Flamethrower. Overall, Shuckle just beats reliably Murkrow and sometimes Vileplume.

Lance (40) : Gyarados 2HKOes with Rain Dance Surf and it takes 4 Rollout to ko it. It's possible to defeat a lvl 47 Dragonite with a PRZCureBerry if you get lucky and manage to hit 4 Rollout. Dragonite 4HKOes with Thunder so if you manage to dodge a Thunder/Blizzard and don't get paralysed you can potentially win. Rollout 3HKOes Charizard but it 3HKOes. Lvl 50 Dragonite 3HKOes with Outrage. Aerodactyl 2HKOes with Rock Slide. With good luck, Shuckle can defeat a lvl 47 Dragonite but that's it.


Yanma

This is obviously an E-tier and one of the worst mons I've ever used. Finding a Yanma isn't an easy task as it's a 1% encounter and you may need swarm to find it. Yanma doesn't even have a STAB until Wing Attack at level 37. Training Yanma was actually alright when caught as Headbutt is pretty strong early on but by the mid to late game, Yanma struggles to even 2HKO foes. Performance-wise, Yanma was obviously bad, with its only accomplishment being taking down both Haunter against Morty thanks to Foresight, defeating Rival's Meganium in the last fight, Will's Exeggutor, the Hitmon against Bruno and Karen's Vileplume. All other kos Yanma get are from mons that are always free, like Pryce's Dewgong, Chuck's Primeape etc... It's even worse in GS where it doens't have Wing Attack and won't be able to achieve its few perks (defeating rival's Meganium and the 3 hitmon). So, yeah E-tier, it's hard to find and train and barely does anything relevant in battle.

Golem

I used it to see the differences between it and Graveler and they are mostly minors. I noted these things on Golem compared to Graveler :
- Golem can live an Iron Tail against Jasmine's Steelix, which doesn't mean much as it needs to get the perfect Magnitude number to defeat it.
- Golem can take 2 Aurora Beam from Pryce's Dewgong and can thus 2HKO it with Rock Throw and OHKO Piloswine with Self-Destruct. Graveler can only defeat Seel+Piloswine.
- Survive 2 Psychic from Xatu #2 from Will, 1 Ice Punch from Jynx (and you OHKO back with Earthquake) and 2 Psychic from Slowbro (while 2HKOing it with Soft Sand Earthquake)
- Survive High Jump Kick from Hitmonlee + 2 Mach Punch from Hitmonchan against Bruno
- Survive Feint Attack from Murkrow + Crunch from Houndoom against Karen
- Survive 2 Flamethrower from Aerodactyl + 2 hits from Aerodactyl, meaning it can take down both. Additionally, Golem may potential 1v1 the Thunder-Dragonite.

I'd say the main points from this list would be defeating Pryce's Dewgong, a mon against Will, Lee+Chan against Bruno, Murkrow+Houndoom vs Karen and Charizard+Aero against Lance. Still, it doesn't warrant a tier difference, defeating the 3 hitmon instead of 2 is cool and so is defeating the 3 Hitmon and Charizard but it's not game changing and honestly Karen's Murkrow is easy to beat most of the time.

As for tiering, just like Graveler, B-tier is fine for it. It's excellent for the first 4 gyms (and winning against Bugsy and especially Whitney is amazing) and has a few uses afterwards. It can take down a few mons, most notably Karen's Houndoom and is pretty good for Koga and Lance.

Natu

Again, this is an easy E-tier. Natu isn't funny to catch as it's available in a remote area. Training it was awful, it has no STAB until it learns Fly after Chuck. Even then, the move is fairly weak and doesn't even always OHKO Rival's Haunter in underground fight (which says a lot). I hardly remember Natu/Xatu being able to OHKO an opposite foe, resulting in many trips to the pokecenter. It also barely had any use in major fights really. It even struggles to defeat Meganium + Sneasel against Rival. Its only true great performance were possibly defeating Chuck if you don't get too unlucky, beating Meganium from Rival and the 3 Hitmon from Bruno.

Shuckle

An obvious E-tier as well. The only positive thing I can say about Shuckle is that it has boosted exp and that Rollout can be strong if it hits. Getting Shuckle to the right level isn't an easy task, everything outspeeds it to the point it can't be the first mon on your team as you won't be able to run away from wild mons. Rollout takes several turns to gain power and you Shuckle will be easily worn down. Performant-wise, except for defeating Primeape against Chuck, Sneasel/Haunter/Kadabra (which are always free anyway) and taking down 2 Pryce Pokemon, Shuckle barely did anything. Even then, Rollout has to hit and a single miss may ruin everything. In my logs, I mentionned specific conditions Shuckle needs to defeat just a single mon. It takes lots of time and even then, the unaccuracy is going to hurt and Shuckle is very prone to getting haxxed.


Next run is going to be Seel/Lickitung/trade Dodrio/VR Rhydon. I expect D-/C-tier for Seel (as it comes late but STAB Ice Beam is great), E-/D-tier for Lickitung, D-tier for Dodrio and E-/D-tier for Rhydon.
Thank you for the in depth opinions and the links to your other tests. When I still had my run with Wrath, I considered B at the time. To see it bounce between B and C, I may have to give it another test. I know it does suffer a bit from 4MSS since it would like Ice Punch for the very few Dragons in the game but it can't fit everything sadly. You are bound to lose a move that would be good which can result in a particularly bad MU. You tend to want to keep Rain Dance + Surf for massive damage output, Submission for your fighting STAB which is very helpful on Karen's Umbreon which otherwise just walls you for a time, and either Return/Ice Punch but Return is oft better for Resistances if you encounter them.


Gastly (Trade) is most likely headed to A already. It was 2 noms for A and that's kinda it so it will prob make it's way in there as usually Gengar is always a tier lower than Zam or at least around the general area of Zam.

Edit: Girafarig may have another test done on it by me. I had a brainfart from the sheer amount of placements and derped seeing that it had 3 A/B noms. So I plan to do another test and use that as a tie breaker and see where it should go. So for now, Girafarig's placement is not final.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top