GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
so I did a run with Weedle / Yanma / Shuckle / Swinub. And yes, I do need therapy, thank you for asking

I will keep analyses short, since most of my nominations are gonna be fairly obvious

Weedle
Beedrill

Falkner(12): you need 10 Fury Attacks to KO Pidgeotto, which 3HKOes with Gust (albeit it's slower). You could spam Harden on Pidgey before that to make the sweep safer

Bugsy(17): PB Swift 4HKOes Scyther, which 5HKOes with Fury Cutter. Set up Harden on Metapod or Kakuna if paranoid

Silver(18): beats Zubat and Bayleef

Whitney(20): five Fury Cutters end the fight. However, Miltank is faster and will typically KO you with two Stomps if you took enough damage from Clefairy, unless you spammed up Harden like a madman

Morty(25): I'd be surprised if you can even get past Gastly

Chuck(30): PBarb Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath, which goes for Mind Reader and Hypnosis. Surf 3HKOes you

Jasmine: nope

Pryce(31): beats Seel and Dewgong

Silver(33): beats Sneasel and Meganium

Clair(38): PBarb SBomb 2HKOes Dragonair. You take out two at best

Silver(40): beats Sneasel, Kadabra, and Meganium

Will(42): OHKOes Jynx and Exeggutor and 3HKOes Slowbro with Twineedle. Slowbro 2HKOes with Psychic, but generally goes for Amnesia turn one. Beedrill outspeeds all of them

Koga(42): nope

Bruno(42): beats the Hitmons

Karen(42): beats Vileplume and Murkrow


I guess this could go in D-tier since it's not as useless as you may think. It's decent for Bugsy if you teach it Swift and somehowly wasn't useless at the E4, where it took out 3/5 of Will and Bruno's teams, while also contributing elsewhere with STAB Sludge Bomb. I don't think this is worth using, though, but it's certainly usable

Yanma
Yanma

Whitney(20): gets steamrolled by Miltank. Even Double Team is unlikely to save you

Morty: when all you learn is Normal-type moves...

Chuck(29): PB Headbutt 3HKOes Primeape and deals nothing to Poliwrath. Double Team strategies are neutered by Mind Reader

Jasmine: nope

Pryce(31): beats Seel. You need Double Team to sweep

Silver(33): beats Sneasel

Clair(38): beats one Dragonair

Silver(40): beats Sneasel, Haunter, Kadabra, and Meganium with Sharp Beak Wing Attack

Will(42): beats Exeggutor

Koga(42): beats Ariados and Venomoth

Bruno(42): beats the Hitmons

Karen(42): beats Vileplume and Murkrow


so this is very obviously an E-tier. Before the E4, it is rare for Yanma to take out more than one Pokemon because its only decent move until then is Headbutt. Also, it learns Wing Attack only in Crystal, so it's significantly worse in GS (since Wing Attack lets it get a few KOs at the League). Finally, this is either 1% encounter rate or requires swarms to make it common, both of which are just inefficient. I was aware this was gonna end in E-tier, I just wanted to see if I could make some use out of it for data purposes

Shuckle
Shuckle

Chuck(30): it is possible to muscle through Primeape with Hard Stone Rollout. Key word being possible

Jasmine: nope

Pryce(31): Hard Stone Rollout will OHKO everything only after hitting five times. You need luck to sweep. You can lock Piloswine into Mist to make set up safer

Silver(33): at best you can beat Sneasel and/or Golbat with lucky Rollouts

Clair(38): nope

Silver(40): read last Silver fight, but add Kadabra

Shuckle is useless for the entire E4, so not gonna bother writing those up


Another obvious E-tier, the reason I used it was because I wanted to see if I could make the best of it. The only way to make this usable to any degree is with Hard Stone Rollout, which, surprisingly, allows it to hold its ground (somewhat) on the field. Granted, this is most likely due to the traded experience (I used the gift one) and I had to heal it quite often, though this also shows just how easy route cleaning is and why I don't care too much about it. In terms of major fights, Shuckle obviously provides no consistent solutions and even matchups like Pryce are a gamble when it comes to reliable sweeps, so easy E-tier

Swinub
Piloswine

Silver(33): NMI Blizzard OHKOes Golbat and Haunter and 2HKOes Meganium, which will generally 1v1 you. Sneasel is 2HKOed by Return

Clair(38): NMI Blizzard OHKOes Dragonair. You can barely live at red by the time you KOed all of those, assuming you never miss Blizzard

Silver(40): EQ and NMI Blizzard OHKO everything

Will(42): NMI Blizzard OHKOes Xatu and Exeggutor, while EQ OHKOes Jynx. You are fairly slow here, so expect hax

Koga(42): NMI Blizzard OHKOes Crobat on rolls. EQ OHKOes Muk, 3HKOes Forry, and 2HKOes Ariados/Venomoth

Bruno(43): EQ OHKOes Hitmontop (through Dig) and Hitmonlee (which goes for Foresight) and 2HKOes Hitmonchan. Seems to OHKO Onix on rolls as well, though Blizzard will get the kill for sure

Karen(43): beats Murkrow, Vileplume, and Gengar. Houndoom is faster and OHKOes with Flamethrower

Lance(43): can beat two Dragonites if lucky


I decided to apply my typical therapy™ for Pokemon lacking any real good moves and caught it in a Friend Ball, giving it Return and Blizzard immediately. Swinub is... terrible until evolution. It has a hard time killing most things and, when it does, it has to be healed after fights. Furthermore, Slow growth rate was just bleh when you want to evolve it ASAP; I had to use tons of skipped trainers + out of the way trainers (like the Union Cave ones) just to get it to Piloswine before the tunnel rival fight. It is okay with EQ, but it also relies heavily on Blizzard hitting to kill certain things

E-tier seems the best tier for Swinub, given the enormous investment and the unreliability it comes with.

===

I will probably do another run before I stop, since I think I've run with virtually everything (other than stuff like Smeargle and Ditto which are unusable)
 
Finished run with Cyndaquil, Miltank, Poliwag (Poliwrath), and Seel.

Faulkner:
Poliwag (13): Water Gun 2HKOs Pidgey and roughly 3HKOs Pidgeotto. You outspeed both and should be just fine health wise, my 4HKO attempt ended close to red.
Quilava (14): Well worth the effort. You OHKO Pidgey and even just 2HKO Pidgeotto (!)

Bugsy:
Poliwag (19): Misses the 2HKO on the cocoons (I crit Kakuna but whatever) while 6HKOing Scyther with Water Gun. Surprisingly you outspeed Scyther so you can potentially stop Fury Cutter with Hypnosis.
Quilava (18): Ember OHKOS cocoons and barely 2HKOs Scyther, though it does minimal damage.

Silver 2:
Poliwag (19): 3HKOs Gastly and Zubat with Water Gun. Obvious no on Croconaw, though you can slowly chip it with Hypnosis and Doubleslap.
Quilava (19): 2HKOS Gastly and Zubat with Ember. Can Smokescreen Croconaw for team support.

Whitney:
Quilava (21): Charcoal. 3HKOs Clefairy with Ember. I wanna say Miltank is like a…5HKO and it outspeeds lol
Poliwag (21): Surprisingly faster than Miltank, Water Gun seems to be a 5HKO and you can Hypnosis and hope you get lucky. Stomp seems to be a rough 2HKO.

Morty:
Miltank (26): Pink Bow. Defense Curl and hope Gastly uses Spite. Rollout 1 should OHKO. Haunter comes out next, is outsped and OHKOed. Gengar comes out third and is outsped and OHKOED (!!!) Second Haunter comes out and dies.

If Gastly goes Curse as you Rollout turn 1 without Curl, you 2HKO it and take no Curse damage. The other three are still outsped and OHKOed. Actually amazing.

Quilava (26): Charcoal. Outsped and take Gastly to 1/3 HP where it faints itself with Curse. Haunter is 3HKOed by Ember and Curse + Night Shade beats you. Ember seems to 5HKO Gengar and Dream Eater 2HKOs you. The second Haunter is 3HKOed by Ember. Bleh.
Poliwrath (26): No item. Surf OHKOs Gastly and leaves Haunter in red. Gengar pretty consistently blocks Wrath though: Hypnosis into Dream Eater 2HKOS you and you never seem to wake up after the first Dream Eater. If it misses Hypnosis, you can Hypnosis back, and if it lands, likely 3HKO it before it wakes up. The second Haunter lived Surf in red.

Chuck:
Miltank (31): Pink Bow. I tried Defense Curl and Rollout out of curiosity: three uses outspeeds and kills Primeape (he’s only 2HKOing you with 2 Karate Chop crits, 4HKO otherwise) while the fourth Rollout takes Poliwrath to red (in two consecutive attempts he hit DynamicPunch on the first use…).

Anyway, doing it the normal way has Strength take Primeape to red as it Leers you. Strength barely misses the 2HKO on Poliwrath. Without debuffs, DynamicPunch from Poliwrath only 2HKOs Miltank. Mint Berry could be helpful, but even in the ABSOLUTE WORST case scenario (Primeape Karate Chop crit turn 1, Poliwrath hitting DynamicPunch turn 1 if the Ai goes for it into KO) you still kill his lead and dent Poliwrath. Good.


Quilava (31): Charcoal. Primeape is 3HKOed by Flame Wheel (you outspeed) but virtually any prior damage into Poliwrath’s Surf will kill Quilava (Strength is a 6HKO, lol).

Poliwrath (31): Pink Bow. Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Primeape. Sadly, Pink Bow Strength seems to barely miss the 3HKO on Poliwrath. Strangely I SWEAR Chuck’s Poliwrath used Mind Reader then promptly missed Hypnosis next turn? Dunno what happened there. Like with Morty, this matchup can be improved with Mint Berry: I can go back and get it if need be. Chuck’s Poliwrath seems like it’d be perfectly doable with one. In both my attempts he whiffed Hypnosis all the time and I got a crit when it mattered in the second attempt, so I doubt Chuck is threatening you.

Jasmine:
Miltank (31): PRZCureBerry. Fire Punch 2HKOs Magnemite to while Thunderbolt 3HKOs (it will generally Thunder Wave you first): you can likely take both Magnemite. Steelix I think can eat three Fire Punches and trigger a heal, so that’s unfavorable. Interestingly, Pink Bow Strength comes very close to 2HKOing Magnemite as well, barely missing it.
Quilava (31): Charcoal. OHKOs Magnemite and barely 2HKOs Steelix, whose Rock Throw shouldn’t 2HKO you. Easy sweep.
Poliwrath (31): . Thanks to the berry you set Rain Dance and OHKO everything. With Mystic Water Magnemite ends up in red.

Pryce:
Quilava (34): Charcoal. Strength 2HKOs Seel, thankfully. Flame Wheel sadly misses the 3HKO on Dewgong, who can be deceptively annoying thanks to the Icy Wind Speed drop with Headbutt’s flinch chance. If you heal at the wrong time, I hope you like a Rest loop! Yeah probably avoid Dewgong. Piloswine is taken to red by Flame Wheel and poses no threat.
Miltank (34): Pink Bow. PB Strength OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs the others. Exceptionally easy.
Poliwrath (35): Pink Bow. Submission outspeeds and OHKOs his entire team if you have it, though 80 accuracy is annoying. Strength fails to OHKO and 2HKO Seel and Dewgong respectively. I was shocked when Surf OHKOed Piloswine.

Rival Tunnel:
Miltank (35): PRZCureBerry. Return 2HKOs Golbat and Magnemite though Confusion can be annoying. You kill Haunter in two Rollouts thanks to Curse (no Curl), Rollout outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel, and Rollout 4 knocks Feraligtr to red. You can miss the 5th Rollout and take Curse damage just fine, because Feraligtr has lol Water Gun for offense. Mildly annoying.
Poliwrath (36): Mystic Water. Rain Dance Surf hopefully OHKOs Golbat (range) and Magnemite and Haunter (seem to be reliable) while Golbat’s Wing Attack does 1/4. Gatr comes in as the rain stops. Submission and two uses of Return kills it (it survived three Returns once). Sneasel is 2HKOed by Return or OHKOed by Submission. Fairly easy.
Typhlosion (36): Magnet. Based on one test, you need Magnet to secure the Thunderpunch OHKO on Golbat. Feraligtr seems to be easily 2HKOed though (it does like…1/4 HP with Water Gun). Haunter, Sneasel, and Magnemite are OHKOed by Fire Punch (Haunter seems to be a range though).
Dewgong (37): NeverMeltIce. You outspeed and OHKO Golbat with Ice Beam, thankfully. Magnemite is actually OHKOed by Surf. Haunter dies to Ice Beam. Sneasel outspeeds but does nothing and is 2HKOed by Surf. Feraligtr you outspeed and 4HKO with Ice Beam but that’s no problem because it only does like…13 of your roughly 120 HP with Bite, which you can easily tank. You should end a little above half HP.

Clair:
Miltank (38): PRZCureBerry. If you don’t use PRZCureBerry, you’re beating two Dragonair with average luck as you 2HKO them with Return. 3 Rollouts without Defense Curl kills the first Dragonair, and the other two Dragonair are OHKOed, so you only need the first Dragonair to attack with Surf once to not be screwed over by paralysis. Kingdra comes out and I’m at 113/137 HP. Return does 1/3 as it uses Smokescreen, I miss as Surf seems to do 1/3, but I’m killed by Surf next turn. One on one against Kingdra with Pink Bow, you each 3HKO each other with Return and Surf respectively, Hyper Potions can be a pain. Just take the three Dragonair.
Poliwrath (38): PRZCureBerry. Ice Punch 2HKOs all three Dragonair, somehow I dodged Thunder Wave twice in a row. Return 4HKOs Kingdra, you should be able to for sure take it one on one. In the second attempt I accidentally replaced Return and got paralyzed by the third Dragonair, but still somehow soled Kingdra with I think 5 Ice Punches (!) You should for sure take down three Dragonair.
Typhlosion (38): Charcoal / Pink Bow. Both Fire Punch (though I burned) and Pink Bow Strength seem to 3HKO the first Dragonair, then Kingdra comes out and you die.
Dewgong (38): NeverMeltIce. Outspeeds and OHKOs all three Dragonair with Ice Beam. Ice Beam seems to do 1/3 to Kingdra, but I think I KOed it in two hits with either high rolls or a crit: regardless, Smokescreen and Hyper Potions make this annoying, however, Hyper Beam does barely less than half your HP, so as long as she doesn’t roll a crit you should be good. Sometimes two uses of Ice Beam prompts it to heal, sometimes not.

Rival Victory Road:
Miltank (41): Pink Bow. Defense Curl, then Rollout to 2HKO Sneasel. Rollout 3 OHKOs Golbat. Rollout 4 OHKOs Magneton (!!) and Rollout 5 takes care of Haunter. Return OHKOs Kadabra and actually 2HKOs Feraligatr (!!!).
Poliwrath (41): Mystic Water. Rain-boosted Surf OHKOs Sneasel but leaves Golbat alive to likely confuse you. Return OHKOs Kadabra. Sadly, the rain stops as Magneton comes in, but it is OHKOed by Submission. Hilariously, Surf without rain still OHKOs Haunter. Two uses of Submission + Return 3HKOs Gatr, I finished at roughly half HP. Tested once.
Typhlosion (41): Charcoal. Fire Punch OHKOs Sneasel, ThunderPunch 2HKOs Gatr and Golbat, Fire Punch OHKOs Haunter and Strength comes close to OHKOing Kababra. Fire Punch OHKOs Magneton. Pretty easy.
Dewgong (40): PRZCureBerry. Sneasel and Magneton get 2HKOed by Surf while Haunter gets OHKOed by Ice Beam. Magneton’s Thunder Wave is absolutely obnoxious as it leaves you open to Curse from Haunter if you lack a berry. Haunter seems to be OHKOed by NeverMeltIce Ice Beam if you forego the Berry, though Kadabra lived IIRC. Any attack - Headbutt or STABs - 2HKOs Kadabra as it Future Sights you. Crits from Feraligtr’s Slash are a 3HKO, making using Rest risky if you want to. Ice Beam 5HKOs Gatr and OHKOs Golbat. Decent.

Will:
Miltank (42): Pink Bow. Defense Curl, then Rollout to 2HKO Xatu (Psychic 3HKOs, you outspeed). Rollout 3 OHKOs Jynx and 4 OHKOs Eggs while 5 OHKOs Slowbro (!!). Return 2HKOs the second Xatu (Psychic 3HKOs). Confusion hax is going to be obnoxious though. Return seems to 2HKO everything but Eggs and Slowbro (especially thanks to Leech Seed from the former), but you also outspeed and OHKO Jynx. Decent.
Poliwrath (42): NeverMeltIce. NMI Ice Punch 2HKOs Xatu and Submission seems to OHKO Jynx (you seem to outspeed both) but Psychic 2HKOs you back and Confuse Ray is a pain. Eggs is going to finish you off NO MATTER WHAT - it lives a crit Ice Punch in red and destroys you. Poor, but a little better than you’d expect.
Typhlosion (42): Charcoal. You outspeed Xatu as Psychic is a 3HKO, sadly you leave it in red with ThunderPunch. Based on a small test with Charcoal, you need Magnet’s boost to 2HKO Slowbro with ThunderPunch after it uses Amnesia turn 1. The second Xatu confuses you after you smack it to Max Potion range with ThunderPunch (thankfully I snapped out). Jynx and Eggs seem to live Fire Punch, likely thanks to me not having Charcoal here. Gosh this is weird.

I did surprisingly get really lucky with ThunderPunch paralysis in my attempts. Sweeping is pretty shaky, which surprised me based on how initial attempts went until I tried moving on after I was done with my tests. Lots of ranges, lots of status.

Dewgong (42): NeverMeltIce. Psychic from most things seems to 3HKO you. Both Xatu outspeed but you OHKO them with Ice Beam (watch out for Confuse Ray). Eggs is outsped and OHKOed by Ice Beam. Don’t bother with Jynx, it just puts you to sleep. Either way, 3/5 with reasonable luck is pretty decent.

Koga:
Miltank (42): Pink Bow. Defense Curl and Rollout 2HKOs Ariados, but you have to hit Rollout as it potentially uses Double Team twice, which is shaky. Rollout 3 OHKOs Venomoth, but the Ai is actually smart enough to use Forretress’s Protect to block Rollout, upon which I switched out. If Muk uses Acid Armor turn 1, you should still 3HKO it with Return (Sludge Bomb does nothing). Crobat is likely best left to something else - it outspeeds and can use Double Team and you have to get pretty good damage rolls to 2HKO it, which doesn’t bode well with evasion. Ariados and Venomoth are 2HKOed by Return as well.

Poliwrath (42): Mystic Water. Poliwrath's rain and Mystic Water-boosted Surf can't OHKO Ariados, which is unfortunate, but it still isn’t doing much to you. Venomoth is 2HKOed but Psychic / Toxic both suck. The rain stops as Crobat comes out. You and Crobat 3HKO each other with Wing Attack and Surf respectively (Wing Attack comes close to a 2HKO too). You can set rain on Forretress, but you still leave it in red with Surf. Hopefully you’ll get in two uses of rain-boosted Surf on Muk so another non-rainy Surf can finish it off. Average.

Typhlosion (42): Charcoal. Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Ariados and Forretress while barely 3HKOing Muk, but Toxic can be annoying with Crobat’s Double Team and Koga Full Restoring Crobat at half HP after ThunderPunch (???). Venomoth is OHKOed. Pretty good, nothing is reliable for Koga anyway.

Dewgong (42): NeverMeltIce. Ice Beam 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth while Surf sadly 3HKOs Forretress. Muk is a solid no, being 4HKOed by Ice Beam. Crobat is consistently left in red by Ice Beam. Mediocre.

Bruno:
Miltank (42): Pink Bow. You can Defense Curl to max, then heal up with Milk Drink or a potion (Hitmontop does absolutely nothing). Return 2HKOs Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, and Hitmonchan, outspeeding all three and occasionally OHKOing Lee. You do a third to Machamp and then likely get sliced in half with a Cross Chop crit, which is just as well as you weren’t killing Onix anyway. Interestingly, Miltank can actually LIVE Machamp’s Cross Chop from full in red if it does NOT crit.

Alternatively, you can Return as Top uses Dig, then Defense Curl to +1 as it comes up. You should have enough HP to get through all three Hitmons reliably unless they crit. Good.
Poliwrath (42): Mystic Water. Use Surf on Hitmontop for 1/3 its HP as it uses Dig, THEN use Rain Dance to hopefully 2HKO it on the third turn with Surf (it’s a range). Rain-boosted Surf 2HKOs Hitmonchan and does slightly over half to Lee before rain stops: another Surf sadly leaves it alive outside Rain. Rain-boosted Surf then a regular Surf seems to beat Chan though. You’re probably not beating Machamp - rain-boosted Surf barely takes it to half and a Cross Chop crit just nukes you. Onix is easily outsped and OHKOed by regular Surf.

Typhlosion (43): Charcoal. Much to my displeasure, Hitmontop is likely to live two Fire Punches as it 4HKOs with Dig, taking you to half HP by the time it dies. Onix then comes out and finishes you off (lol). You seem to BARELY 2HKO Hitmonchan with Fire Punch as it does nothing. Don’t bother with Machamp - it easily 2HKOs with Rock Slide while being 3HKOed by Fire Punch. Hitmonlee and Onix are BARELY 2HKOed by Fire Punch. Okay, but I hesitate to call it outright good because it seems A LOT of his Pokemon are borderline ranges.

Dewgong (42): NeverMeltIce. LOL, no. Hitmontop is 3HKOed by Ice Beam and HJK from Lee nukes you. I GUESS you can OHKO Onix if that’s something you’re into.

Karen:

Miltank (43): Pink Bow. If you have it, Body Slam can be a helpful tool for Umbreon, cleanly 3HKOing and potentially paralyzing it, though I didn’t. Vileplume is easily 2HKOed by Return. It sadly takes 3 uses of Rollout (no Curl) + Curse to kill Gengar, but Murkrow and Houndoom I believe are outsped and OHKOed after assuming you hit. Watch out for Gengar’s Destiny Bond though, as it is faster. Good.

Poliwrath (42): Mystic Water. Submission cleanly 2HKOs Umbreon. Vileplume only seems to want to attack after paralyzing you with Stun Spore first: it 2HKOs with Petal Dance (rain-boosted Surf is a 4HKO if curious). Rain-boosted Surf seems to 2HKO Gengar but setting rain and killing it is obnoxious because Lick is extremely likely to paralyze you at least once. You can set rain on Murkrow (it has no Flying moves) and OHKO both it and Houndoom, so that’s nice.

Typhlosion (43): Charcoal. 3HKOing Umbreon with Fire Punch seems shaky, so probably leave it to something else. Fire Punch sadly leaves Vileplume in red, but Curse + Fire Punch beats Gengar. Murkrow is actually outsped and OHKOed by Thunderpunch. Houndoom is 3HKOed by Strength, but Curse damage + Crunch (seems to be a 3HKO) will likely catch up to you first, though you outspeed at least.

Dewgong (43): NeverMeltIce. Misses the 3HKO on Umbreon with Ice Beam and even fails to OHKO Vileplume (lol). Gengar is 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Murkrow is OHKOed by Ice Beam while Houndoom and you seem to 2HKO each other: it is faster.

Lance:
Typhlosion (43): Magnet. Outspeed and hopefully OHKO Gyarados (it’s a range) with ThunderPunch, Aerodactyl outspeeds and 2HKOs you with Rock Slide before you can 2HKO with ThunderPunch. You do outspeed and barely 2HKO Charizard with ThunderPunch (Hyper Beam is a 3HKO). Decent, but never touching the Dragonite.
Miltank (43): Pink Bow. Defense Curl as Gyarados uses Rain Dance: rain-boosted Surf 3HKOs you as you outspeed and 2HKO with Rollout. Outspeed and OHKO both Level 47 Dragonite with Rollout 3 and 4 respectively. Aerodactyl 4 does Hyper Beam for absolutely NOTHING putting you in yellow as you OHKO it with Rollout 5. Rollout 1 knocks Charizard to red: it will likely finish you off with Flamethrower, but if it doesn’t, Rollout 2 kills it and Rollout 3 outspeeds and OHKOs the level 50 Dragonite. Superb.
Poliwrath (43): NeverMeltIce. Aerodactyl does 1/3 with Wing Attack as rain-boosted Surf (thanks to Gyarados) OHKOs it. Ice Punch and Thunder from Dragonite 2HKOs each other (you are faster). Ice Punch 2HKOs the other. lev
Dewgong (43): NeverMeltIce. Ice Beam OHKOs all three Dragonite, but Thunder will hurt as Gyarados likely set up rain. Don’t bother with Aerodactyl - it lives Ice Beam in red and easily 2HKOs with Rock Slide. Judging by a random Hyper Beam, I’d wager most of those 2HKO you. Not worth training up for Lance because you’re slower.
Cyndaquil was...honestly, pretty bad. I wish I was kidding but it's just not good for like, 70% of the game. It all goes downhill FAST after you beat Bugsy, Quilava has absolutely no power even with Charcoal because it only rarely hits weaknesses. From Whitney to Typhlosion (read: after seven badges), outside of Jasmine Quilava is consistently below average, only taking the small fry Gym Leaders have aside from Pryce's Piloswine who is GSC Pryce and not killing you like ever, and it's not like beating Jasmine is something worth jumping for joy over.

Typhlosion FINALLY gets the power with Fire Punch and ThunderPunch endgame, KOing a decent amount of stuff but by then the game's basically over and the Elite Four really aren't as pivotal as the early Gyms. It honestly has shades of C-tier (Quilava couldn't even 2HKO Chuck's Primeape with Flame Wheel!) and being a Fire type just isn't very good in Johto. GS Magmar superannuates it in every single regard due to not needing to wait until level 36 before it becomes usable.

You could easily make a strong argument Cyndaquil being a C-tier, and while I'm not completely sold on that (it DOES pick up at the endgame) calling it a roughly consistent B tier Pokemon is really stretching it with how long you have to wait for it to be good.

Miltank was solid with Rollout and Return. Easiest B tier of my life. I could almost see A if it wasn't a 5% counter that's mildly annoying to catch and was earlier, and Rollout had more consistent accuracy. It almost never felt deadweight.

Seel is D. It's Seel, exactly as mediocre as you'd expect coming after Pryce. Only real benefit is helping with Clair's Dragonair (Lance's Dragonite outspeed you). Any other Water type is better.

Poliwrath is...man, I don't know. For most of the earlygame, Poliwag amounts to little more than a fast Hypnosis user (it actually outsped Miltank) because it is pretty weak offensively. Midgame it gets a lot better with Surf and being fully evolved, but its offenses are never really as good as you want them to be without rain. You can apparently do great for Morty with Mint Berry (I say "apparently" because I forgot Mint Berry until it was too late, but you do pretty well there outside Gengar from my experience).

Poliwrath does great for Jasmine, Pryce, and Clair though which is nice, but the League outside Karen really isn't anything to get excited over and roughly equates to average. I think it's a borderline B / C in that it has an earlygame slump, an okay midgame, and a heavily meh endgame combined with minor things like the Water Stone backtrack and some 4MSS (it wants Ice Punch, Surf, Return, Submission, Hypnosis, and Rain Dance). I wouldn't mind seeing more opinions on it.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
did a run with Ledyba / Tauros / Gligar / Ponyta (apparently, I had never used Tauros, though I kind of knew what tier it would be in my books).

Tauros was used with Friend Ball, aka after Morty

Ledyba
Ledian

Falkner(14): cannot beat Pidgeotto

Bugsy(18): PB Swift deals way too little damage, Fury Cutter will finish you before you can KO Scyther, unless you get lucky with Supersonic

Silver(18): can muscle through Bayleef

Whitney(25): two Rollouts are enough to KO Ledian. You 4HKO with Ice Punch. You need Supersonic to win

Morty(26): Dig OHKOes Gastly and 2HKOes Haunter. Avoid Gengar

Chuck(30): beats Primeape. Thunder Punch is a 4HKO on Poliwrath and Surf seems like a 3-4HKO. Hypnosis will ruin your day, though

Jasmine(30): Dig fails to OHKO Magnemite... yeah

Pryce(31): beats Seel

Silver(33): Ice Punch 2HKOes Golbat and 3HKOes Meganium. Dig OHKOes Magnemite

Clair(38): NMI Ice Punch 2HKOes Dragonair. However, since you get paralyzed, you are taking out two at best

Silver(40): Dig 2HKOes Magneton and Haunter. NMI Ice Punch 2HKOes Golbat and 3HKOes Meganium. Headbutt 2HKOes Kadabra

Will(42): NMI Ice Punch 2HKOes Xatu and Exeggutor, if you get lucky, you may beat al of them in one go


Yeah, I am gonna say E-tier is correct for Ledyba. Ledyba is bad for the first three Gyms, only providing some assistance against Morty with Dig. Then it goes on to suck again, typically 2HKOing some of the frailer threats with super effective Ice Punch, but never having any meaningful impact in fights. Yeah, Fast growth rate is nice, but I am not sure if it's worth it given Ledyba's... lack of usefulness. Keep this in E-tier

Tauros
Tauros

Chuck(30): PB Return OHKOes Primeape and 2HKOes Poliwrath. If Wrath goes for Mind Reader, you've won easily

Jasmine(30): nope

Pryce(31): PB Return spam wins

Silver(33): PB Return OHKOes Sneasel and 2HKOes Meganium and Golbat

Clair(38): PB Return OHKOes Dragonair and 2HKOes Kingdra, which is slower and 2HKOes with Surf (watch out for Smokescreen, though). I am worried about the OHKOs being rolls because my level 37 Tauros failed to OHKO an Ace Trainer's Dragoniar, but nevertheless, amazing

Silver(40): PB Return 2HKOes Golbat and Meganium and OHKOes Sneasel and Kadabra. EQ OHKOes Magneton and Haunter

Will(42): PB Return OHKOes Jynx and 2HKOes the rest (bar maybe Slowbro, which I didn't face due to Reflect). Xatu #1 is a roll for OHKO. Psychic will typically 3HKO you

Koga(43): PB Return 2HKOes Crobat and OHKOes Ariados and Venomoth, outspeeding all. EQ 2HKOes Muk. Forry can also be muscled through, but it will wear you down, so not recommended

Bruno(43): PB Return OHKOes Hitmonlee and 2HKOes the other Hitmons (Hitmontop dies to EQ while Digging). Onix is 2HKOed by EQ. Machamp is 2HKOed by Return, but kills you with Cross Chop

Karen(43/44): 2HKOes Umbreon with PB Return. EQ OHKOes Gengar and 2HKOes Houndoom (which is slower and 2HKOes). PB Return OHKOes Murkrow. Switch out against Vileplume due to Sand-attack from Umbreon

Lance(44): beats Gyara and Zard


this is an easy B-tier, much like Miltank (and maybe Girafarig). Catch it with a Friend Ball and watch everything that is not a Ghost-type or Steel-type die to Pink Bow Return. Tauros, notably, can OHKO Clair's Dragonairs and 2HKO Karen's Umbreon, while also being a very good Pokemon for the Elite Four as a whole. Its biggest problems are the low join level, rarity, Slow growth rate, and the difficulty of catching it in a Friend Ball, which puts it in a solid B-tier.

Gligar
Gligar

Silver(33): beats Meganium, Golbat, and Sneasel

Clair(38): beats one Dragonair

Silver(40): beats Sneasel, Golbat, Kadabra, and Meganium

Will(42): beats Xatu #1 and Exeggutor (with Sludge Bomb)

Koga(42): beats Ariados and Venomoth

Bruno(42): beats Hitmontop and Hitmonlee with little difficulty. Machamp can be 1v1ed with healing (or with Swagger boosts)


yeah, easy E-tier. I had no doubts it's gonna be there, but felt like providing some data for it. Even with Friend Ball Return, Gligar simply doesn't do anything outstanding; it KOes some of the weaker members per each team and that's about it. It doesn't learn STAB moves at all (not even STAB moves), so it cannot hit as hard it wishes to.

Ponyta
Rapidash

Silver(38): Fire Blast OHKOes Magneton, Sneasel, and 2HKOes Meganium. Also 2HKOes Haunter and Golbat. Kadabra is OHKOed by Return

Will(42): Charcoal Fire Blast in sun OHKOes Xatu and Exeggutor. Outside of sun, you also OHKO Jynx

Koga(42): beats the bugs

Bruno(42): meh matchup, you KO Hitmontop, then Onix kills you. And you are generally limited to 1v1ing things

Karen(42): beats Murkrow, Vileplume, and Gengar


So this thing comes even later than the Box Legendaries, which should hopefully be enough to justify why I am going with E-tier. In addition, this thing has to be brought up to appropriate levels with what little is left of the games (I managed to bring it to level 38 by the time I reached Silver, because Ponyta couldn't 1v1 some opponents). Then its E4 performance is... not too bad, but it requires Fire Blast to do anything, which is prone to missing and also warrants Ethers if you want Rapidash to do anything against more than one E4 member. Honestly, you might as well just use Entei, which at least already comes at level 40 and can stomp the last trainers before the Victory Road, if you want that.

===
I don't have any plans on doing runs for this list anymore, because I have more-or-less exhausted the entire dex. There are a bunch of things that I never tested due to the fact that they are either some "variations" of what I've used or are obviously terrible and should never be used. In particular, the ones I know I haven't tested are:
  • Pichu - an Odd Egg Pokemon that evolves via happiness.
  • Cleffa - read the above
  • Unown - unless you want to know how it performs with full-power HP Psychic, I don't think anyone will find anything interesting about it
  • Slowking - this is similar to Slowbro, from what I see, unless people want me to test that as well
  • Venonat (GS) - I have used Venomoth (C), which I believe I nominated to D-tier. The question here is do we penalize Venonat not being useful enough until Venomoth (because Moth can at least contribute greatly to Morty)
  • Tyrogue (GS) and Hitmontop/Hitmonchan (C) - former comes too late to be useful, latter is an Odd Egg Pokemon and Lee, which is the best of all Hitmons, is an E-tier to me
  • Magby (C) - Odd Egg Pokemon, not useful until it evolves into Magmar, at which point it performs similarly to the GS one. E-tier sounds fine by me
  • Elekid (C) - Roldski makes good arguments for E-tier
  • Smoochum (C) - Odd Egg Pokemon, not sure if this is worth making a separate ranking for, since you are better off going for the late Jynx
  • Smeargle - theoritically, you can make a Smeargle with Spore, Lock-On, and Guillotine by level 31 to sweep, but you will need to maintain high levels (Smeargle is in the Fast growth rate) for this to do anything in the later fights. E-tier
  • Remoraid - someone else had used it and nominated it to E-tier, which I agree with. A swarm Pokemon that barely does anything and comes late is an obvious E-tier.
  • Umbreon - never used it here, but I know it will suck due to happiness evolution and it doing nothing to most major fights beyond Will
  • Delibird - unless you want to see if NMI Blizzard OHKOes Dragonair, I don't think this one has to be tested
  • Phanpy (S) - it comes later than the Crystal one, but this could maybe be D-tier given the later matchups with EQ, though E-tier works too
  • Rhyhorn - comes at the Victory Road and I have used the Crystal Rhydon. It is level 35 with 5% encounter rate and no trainers to grind it on, unless you skipped some. Perhaps E-tier?
  • Dratini (C) - I have used the GS one and it's an E-tier.

e: I have not used Oddish (Gloom) or Bellsprout (C) but they do not seem different enough from the variants I have used
e2: apparently, the happiness is 120, not 20, whoops.
 
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atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
I think Ledian is at its best as a supporter rather than as an all-out attacker despite its surprisingly wide attacking move pool. Ledian's attacking stats are poor but it has good Speed and learns all of Safeguard, Reflect and Light Screen in the mid-20s, and Safeguard in particular is actually pretty cool in certain match-ups. Notably, Safeguard Ledian can act as a respectable answer to Poliwrath - Safeguard blocks its sleep and confusion, and on top of that Ledian 4x resists DynamicPunch and can soak Surfs somewhat well with its high SpD while it swats at Poliwrath with ThunderPunch (and you can throw Light Screen into the mix to further augment its bulk). I think its best final set would incorporate elemental punches and its protective screens, since it can use the punches on routes (note: these do more than Butterfree's Confusion on neutral targets) and then assist its team mates with Safeguard and the like in important match-ups.

But I also think Ledian is still E/bottom tier even with this niche, because it just takes too much time and effort to get it going, for a reward that is mediocre (the Poliwrath match-up isn't even a guaranteed win). Ledyba is simply awful prior to evolving and getting punch access (even with its ok performance in Sprout Tower), so committing to using it in this way is just going to result in a huge time/effort penalty that will never be recovered by whatever Ledian manages to do mid-/late-game.

(Crystal adds both Ledyba and Ledian as an encounter on Route 37 which would skip the early-game suck phase but burden the player with a level grind, probably not worth much in terms of tiering but might be a better alternative).

Also I think that Swinub is actually worse than Delibird for in-game in some respects - Delibird has more Speed and SpA than even Piloswine while also having access to its second STAB right away, and the bird doesn't even have to evolve to get that advantage. Piloswine's extra Attack really doesn't matter that much until Earthquake arrives (it doesn't learn Dig in this gen and it needs happiness investment before Return starts hitting neutrals harder than Fly) and that happens just before an Elite 4 that is somewhat hostile to Ground coverage.
 
My wait is over to post this Cyndaquil log.
=Falkner=
Cyndaquil L11 @ Berry
Tackle has a roll to 3HKO Pidgey and it is close to 5HKOing Pidgeotto (Cyndaquil's Tackle has 50-60% accuracy after beating Pidgey). Pidgey deals 5/32 hp back while Pidgeotto deals 8/32 hp back.

Pretty Bad. It can 1v1 Pidgeotto with a Berry, but a single Tackle miss would result to a loss

At Level 12
Ember 2HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto deals 6/34 hp back. Barring a small miss, its a sweep even without a Berry.
=Bugsy=
Quilava L15-16
Ember 3HKOs Scyther and 1HKOs the rest. A clean sweep
=Rival 2=
Quilava L16 @ Pink Bow
Ember 2HKOs Gastly and is close to 2HKOing Zubat
Pink Bow Swift 5HKOs Croconaw. Croconaw 3HKOs back

Beats 2 at best
=Whitney=
Quilava L20 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Ember 3HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank. Miltank outspeeds and 3HKOs back
Headbutt is close to 2HKOing Clefairy.
Dig 7HKOs Miltank. Miltank almost 3HKOs back. Bad
Rollout 3HKOs Clefairy and the 4th hit 2HKOs Miltank. Could only sweep if Clefairy doesn't chip you in range of a 2HKO from Miltank
=Rival 3=
Quilava L21-22 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Ember 3HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after a Curse), is close to 2HKOing Zubat and is super close to 1HKOing Magnemite
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and is close to 4HKOing Croconaw. Croconaw 3HKOs back
Beats 3 at best
=Morty=
Quilava L23 @ Mint Berry
Ember 2HKOs Gastly, 3HKOs Haunters and 6HKOs Gengar. Not good

Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs L23 Haunter and is close to 1HKOing L21 Haunter and 2HKOing Gengar. At level 25, Dig reliably 2HKOs Gengar and 1HKOs the rest, Gengar still outspeeds.

Rollout 2HKOs Gastly after a Curse, the 3rd hit puts L21 Haunter in red, the 5th hit 1HKOs Gengar. Gastly's Curse + Haunter's Night Shade puts Quilava in range of a Shadow Ball KO from Gengar, who outspeeds it. At level 25, Rollout is close to 1HKOing Gastly after a Curse, the 3rd hit 1HKOs Haunter, the 4th hit 1HKOs Gengar. Needs Luck

Needs Dig TM and at level 25 to reliably sweep
=Chuck=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel is super close to 2HKOing Primeape
Headbutt 5HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs back.

Only beats Primeape
=Jasmine=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Steelix and 1HKOs the rest. Clean Sweep
=Pryce=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Strength has a roll to 2HKO Seel
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Piloswine.
Dewgong is 4HKOed by 3 Strength/Charcoal Flame Wheel followed by Quick Attack. Dewgong outspeeds after an Icy Wind. With 1 Leer, Strength is a roll to 2HKO on Dewgong
Can sweep but, it would need Quick Attack to prevent Dewgong from getting another Rest after it wokes up, and it requires Quilava to be at -1 Speed(which is likely due to Seel's Icy Wind) to beat Dewgong. Leer can work too.
=Rival 4=
Quilava L33-34 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Haunter and Sneasel, 3HKOs Golbat, and 1HKOs Magnemite
Strength 5HKOs Feraligatr. Feraligatr 3HKOs back
Beats 4 at best
Charcoal Fire Blast 4HKOs Feraligatr and puts Golbat in red
=Clair=
Typhlosion L38 @ Pink Bow / Charcoal
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs the Dragonairs
Charcoal Fire Blast 2HKOs the Dragonairs
Thunderpunch 4HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra almost 1HKOs back
Needs Pink Bow or Charcoal to get 2HKOs on Dragonair. Beats 1 or 2 Dragonairs at best
=Rival 5=
Typhlosion L39-40
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Feraligatr and Golbat
Fire Punch 1HKOs Sneasel, Magneton and Haunter and is close to 1HKOing Kadabra
Can sweep barring hax
=Will=
Typhlosion L40 @ Charcoal
Thunderpunch 2HKOs both Xatus and Slowbro(3HKOs after an Amnesia)
Charcoal Fire Punch 1HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor
Beats 4 at best barring hax, you need 1 heal to beat the last one
Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs L40 Xatu and is close to 1HKOing L42 Xatu
=Koga=
Typhlosion L40 @ Charcoal
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Crobat
Charcoal Fire Punch 3HKOs Muk and 1HKOs the rest. Muk 3HKOs back
Sunny Day Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Muk. Set-up Sunny Day against Forretress
Could possibly sweep barring hax. Sunny Day would increase the chance to sweep

Sunny Day Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs Crobat and puts Muk in red.
=Bruno=
Typhlosion L41 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 3HKOs Machamp and is close to 2HKOing the rest. Machamp 2HKOs back
Top is 2HKOed by Fire Punch into Sunny Day Fire Punch
Onix is 2HKOed by Sunny Day Fire Punch into a normal Fire Punch. Onix likely goes for Sandstorm
With Sunny Day, it beats 3(Top, Chan and Onix) at best

Suuny Day Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs all bar Machamp, who was put in red.
=Karen=
Typhlosion L41 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 4HKOs Umbreon, puts Vileplume in red, and is close to KOing Gengar after a Curse.
Thunderpunch is close to 1HKOing Murkrow
Strength 3HKOs Houndoom. Houndoom can 2HKO back
Beats 2 or 3 at best
=Lance=
Typhlosion L42
Magnet Thunderpunch 2HKOs Charizard and is super close to 1HKOing Gyarados

Beats 2 at best
I'm going for B Tier for this one but i might change my mind, i can't see this being in the same tier as Chikorita, who is currently in C Tier, but i had to test that mon first. Cyndaquil's matchup against Falkner varies if reaches Level 12 or not at that point because I had a lot of instances where I failed reaching Level 12 in time from my multiple playthroughs without wild grinding, so its either a sweep or become pretty bad. I can't deny it had some apparent issue, with the primary one being its Quilava-phase; While it does have a good performance against Jasmine and Pryce, i still felt pretty meh overall, especially around Whitney-Morty section. Ember is just weak post-Bugsy that i remember Headbutt was dealing nearly the same damage as Ember on routes. That Headbutt is coming off from its 64 Attack stat, which is comparable to that of Headbutts coming from Jolteon, Umbreon, GS Yanma (65 Atk) and even Bayleef (62 Atk). It needs Dig TM to have a better, consistent performance against Morty, and its a waste because Quilava doesn't need Dig elsewhere, and relying on Rollout cheese against few bosses is... not something i'm fond of. As Typhlosion, its good after it gained Fire Punch and Thunderpunch. Fire Blast is too expensive to the point i won't go for A Tier on this one (idc if it can sweep with SunnyBlast or whatever, that investment alone is more than enough to kick it out from there) and I honestly don't see a big difference between it and Fire Punch aside from a better Bruno matchup and maybe... Karen? Fire Blast against Clair is pretty bad because, yes, you 2HKO the Dragonairs with it, but why would I spend a 110,000 Gold to do it when a lot of Normal-Types and Water-Types (with Icy Wind/Ice Punch/Aurora Beam) can also easily achieved a 2HKO? Even some mons like Beedrill can 2HKO them without paying that kind of money.
 
My wait is over to post this Cyndaquil log.
=Falkner=
Cyndaquil L11 @ Berry
Tackle has a roll to 3HKO Pidgey and it is close to 5HKOing Pidgeotto (Cyndaquil's Tackle has 50-60% accuracy after beating Pidgey). Pidgey deals 5/32 hp back while Pidgeotto deals 8/32 hp back.

Pretty Bad. It can 1v1 Pidgeotto with a Berry, but a single Tackle miss would result to a loss

At Level 12
Ember 2HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto deals 6/34 hp back. Barring a small miss, its a sweep even without a Berry.
=Bugsy=
Quilava L15-16
Ember 3HKOs Scyther and 1HKOs the rest. A clean sweep
=Rival 2=
Quilava L16 @ Pink Bow
Ember 2HKOs Gastly and is close to 2HKOing Zubat
Pink Bow Swift 5HKOs Croconaw. Croconaw 3HKOs back

Beats 2 at best
=Whitney=
Quilava L20 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Ember 3HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank. Miltank outspeeds and 3HKOs back
Headbutt is close to 2HKOing Clefairy.
Dig 7HKOs Miltank. Miltank almost 3HKOs back. Bad
Rollout 3HKOs Clefairy and the 4th hit 2HKOs Miltank. Could only sweep if Clefairy doesn't chip you in range of a 2HKO from Miltank
=Rival 3=
Quilava L21-22 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Ember 3HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after a Curse), is close to 2HKOing Zubat and is super close to 1HKOing Magnemite
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and is close to 4HKOing Croconaw. Croconaw 3HKOs back
Beats 3 at best
=Morty=
Quilava L23 @ Mint Berry
Ember 2HKOs Gastly, 3HKOs Haunters and 6HKOs Gengar. Not good

Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs L23 Haunter and is close to 1HKOing L21 Haunter and 2HKOing Gengar. At level 25, Dig reliably 2HKOs Gengar and 1HKOs the rest, Gengar still outspeeds.

Rollout 2HKOs Gastly after a Curse, the 3rd hit puts L21 Haunter in red, the 5th hit 1HKOs Gengar. Gastly's Curse + Haunter's Night Shade puts Quilava in range of a Shadow Ball KO from Gengar, who outspeeds it. At level 25, Rollout is close to 1HKOing Gastly after a Curse, the 3rd hit 1HKOs Haunter, the 4th hit 1HKOs Gengar. Needs Luck

Needs Dig TM and at level 25 to reliably sweep
=Chuck=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel is super close to 2HKOing Primeape
Headbutt 5HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs back.

Only beats Primeape
=Jasmine=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Steelix and 1HKOs the rest. Clean Sweep
=Pryce=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Strength has a roll to 2HKO Seel
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Piloswine.
Dewgong is 4HKOed by 3 Strength/Charcoal Flame Wheel followed by Quick Attack. Dewgong outspeeds after an Icy Wind. With 1 Leer, Strength is a roll to 2HKO on Dewgong
Can sweep but, it would need Quick Attack to prevent Dewgong from getting another Rest after it wokes up, and it requires Quilava to be at -1 Speed(which is likely due to Seel's Icy Wind) to beat Dewgong. Leer can work too.
=Rival 4=
Quilava L33-34 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Haunter and Sneasel, 3HKOs Golbat, and 1HKOs Magnemite
Strength 5HKOs Feraligatr. Feraligatr 3HKOs back
Beats 4 at best
Charcoal Fire Blast 4HKOs Feraligatr and puts Golbat in red
=Clair=
Typhlosion L38 @ Pink Bow / Charcoal
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs the Dragonairs
Charcoal Fire Blast 2HKOs the Dragonairs
Thunderpunch 4HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra almost 1HKOs back
Needs Pink Bow or Charcoal to get 2HKOs on Dragonair. Beats 1 or 2 Dragonairs at best
=Rival 5=
Typhlosion L39-40
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Feraligatr and Golbat
Fire Punch 1HKOs Sneasel, Magneton and Haunter and is close to 1HKOing Kadabra
Can sweep barring hax
=Will=
Typhlosion L40 @ Charcoal
Thunderpunch 2HKOs both Xatus and Slowbro(3HKOs after an Amnesia)
Charcoal Fire Punch 1HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor
Beats 4 at best barring hax, you need 1 heal to beat the last one
Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs L40 Xatu and is close to 1HKOing L42 Xatu
=Koga=
Typhlosion L40 @ Charcoal
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Crobat
Charcoal Fire Punch 3HKOs Muk and 1HKOs the rest. Muk 3HKOs back
Sunny Day Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Muk. Set-up Sunny Day against Forretress
Could possibly sweep barring hax. Sunny Day would increase the chance to sweep

Sunny Day Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs Crobat and puts Muk in red.
=Bruno=
Typhlosion L41 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 3HKOs Machamp and is close to 2HKOing the rest. Machamp 2HKOs back
Top is 2HKOed by Fire Punch into Sunny Day Fire Punch
Onix is 2HKOed by Sunny Day Fire Punch into a normal Fire Punch. Onix likely goes for Sandstorm
With Sunny Day, it beats 3(Top, Chan and Onix) at best

Suuny Day Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs all bar Machamp, who was put in red.
=Karen=
Typhlosion L41 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 4HKOs Umbreon, puts Vileplume in red, and is close to KOing Gengar after a Curse.
Thunderpunch is close to 1HKOing Murkrow
Strength 3HKOs Houndoom. Houndoom can 2HKO back
Beats 2 or 3 at best
=Lance=
Typhlosion L42
Magnet Thunderpunch 2HKOs Charizard and is super close to 1HKOing Gyarados

Beats 2 at best
I'm going for B Tier for this one but i might change my mind, i can't see this being in the same tier as Chikorita, who is currently in C Tier, but i had to test that mon first. Cyndaquil's matchup against Falkner varies if reaches Level 12 or not at that point because I had a lot of instances where I failed reaching Level 12 in time from my multiple playthroughs without wild grinding, so its either a sweep or become pretty bad. I can't deny it had some apparent issue, with the primary one being its Quilava-phase; While it does have a good performance against Jasmine and Pryce, i still felt pretty meh overall, especially around Whitney-Morty section. Ember is just weak post-Bugsy that i remember Headbutt was dealing nearly the same damage as Ember on routes. That Headbutt is coming off from its 64 Attack stat, which is comparable to that of Headbutts coming from Jolteon, Umbreon, GS Yanma (65 Atk) and even Bayleef (62 Atk). It needs Dig TM to have a better, consistent performance against Morty, and its a waste because Quilava doesn't need Dig elsewhere, and relying on Rollout cheese against few bosses is... not something i'm fond of. As Typhlosion, its good after it gained Fire Punch and Thunderpunch. Fire Blast is too expensive to the point i won't go for A Tier on this one (idc if it can sweep with SunnyBlast or whatever, that investment alone is more than enough to kick it out from there) and I honestly don't see a big difference between it and Fire Punch aside from a better Bruno matchup and maybe... Karen? Fire Blast against Clair is pretty bad because, yes, you 2HKO the Dragonairs with it, but why would I spend a 110,000 Gold to do it when a lot of Normal-Types and Water-Types (with Icy Wind/Ice Punch/Aurora Beam) can also easily achieved a 2HKO? Even some mons like Beedrill can 2HKO them without paying that kind of money.
Unfortunately, I cannot see B here at all. Falkner requires luck due to Mud Slap still, Whitney just cleans your clock if you don't get the needed Rollouts, as you said Morty is luck based and Dig is better used on a Pokemon who could actually use it. Barring the obvious MUs, Cynda just doesn't stand out as a B tier to me at all. There is simply way too much for it to stand in that tier with others who don't have such a hard time.

I also have grievances with Chiko in C and honestly think it should be put in D. The only reason it isn't lower is because it's a starter which is no excuse. So I believe a vote is in order for Chiko to move to D Tier. Naturally, give your reasons as to why it should or should not move.
 
Unfortunately, I cannot see B here at all. Falkner requires luck due to Mud Slap still, Whitney just cleans your clock if you don't get the needed Rollouts, as you said Morty is luck based and Dig is better used on a Pokemon who could actually use it. Barring the obvious MUs, Cynda just doesn't stand out as a B tier to me at all. There is simply way too much for it to stand in that tier with others who don't have such a hard time.

I also have grievances with Chiko in C and honestly think it should be put in D. The only reason it isn't lower is because it's a starter which is no excuse. So I believe a vote is in order for Chiko to move to D Tier. Naturally, give your reasons as to why it should or should not move.
If we are actually taking seriously Falkner through Whitney, Abra by default cannot be any higher than B either, given it is literally not obtainable/useable whatsoever in any of those fights. According to the stated rules previously. By the strongest form of default, anything not available before what is technically 5 major fights is a gigantic demerit. Likewise Magmar and Spearow (well technically speaking spearow can almost do okay on Whitney, but that is itself relying on incredible rollout counterluck). [Which again, I think this mainly exposes bad criterion for ranking.]

Also being a pedantic pain here... but there is not a single pokemon that doesn't require luck on Falkner given that nothing outspeeds and one shots Pidgeotto (and the flying types available lose outright). I definitely agree that Cynaquil is more annoying than say geodude or totodile, but that doesn't mean the situation is foolproof.
 
If we are actually taking seriously Falkner through Whitney, Abra by default cannot be any higher than B either, given it is literally not obtainable/useable whatsoever in any of those fights. According to the stated rules previously. By the strongest form of default, anything not available before what is technically 5 major fights is a gigantic demerit. Likewise Magmar and Spearow (well technically speaking spearow can almost do okay on Whitney, but that is itself relying on incredible rollout counterluck). [Which again, I think this mainly exposes bad criterion for ranking.]

Also being a pedantic pain here... but there is not a single pokemon that doesn't require luck on Falkner given that nothing outspeeds and one shots Pidgeotto. I definitely agree that Cynaquil is more annoying than say geodude or totodile, but that doesn't mean the situation is foolproof.
A Pidgey beats Falkner better than Cyndaquil without any healing as well if you wanna make comparisons. Besides, we rate and tier Pokemon when we get them. Abra is in time for Whitney too. It's called the Game Corner and is the recommended way to use it. (It doesn't even take that long to level if you preserve the trainers either. Naturally it's best to use it in GS as Crystal has it at Level 5). As Kadabra and the Elemental Punches, you quite literally crap on everything so saying B on Kadabra is a gross underestmation of its power.

Falkner is easy beyond belief compared to HGSS. The only import he bears is that he is a MU for early game mons. That's it. His weight compared to others is negligible but he still counts as either a pro or con via total MUs W/L Ratio.

Whitney is one of the more important MUs but as I had stated prior, even if you manage to sweep her or whatnot, if you begin to fail all over the place, that W means little in the end.
 
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Might as well post this here

I don't think it really matters that Chikorita is a starter. It gives Chikorita benefits (a level lead, perfect availability for a chance to contribute), but it has to take advantage of them. If you got Ditto as a starter, would that be an automatic C Tier by default? I don't think so.

With that said, I don't agree with Chikorita to D, I don't remember it being that difficult to reach level benchmarks and it has, according to the tests I shared on this forum, enough positive matches, particularly with the Synthesis set (which I think hasn't been tested by anyone else). Without consideration of Synthesis, however, I would definitely agree, as it doesn't have a chance against the endgame bosses without it, or even a few of the mid-game battles, which limits the mon more. However, C is fine, at least according to my experience

The summary of the results was:

Needs no rare TM to win: Chuck, Pryce, Will, Bruno

Needs one rare TM to win: Whitney (Fury Cutter TM), Jasmine (Mud-Slap TM), Silver (Goldenrod, Mud-Slap TM), Silver (Victory Road, Earthquake TM)

Couldn't win: Falkner, Bugsy, Silver (Azalea), Silver (Burned Tower), Morty, Clair, Koga, Karen, Lance


(rare TMs defined as in, stuff you only get once or is super expensive like the Game Corner TMs)

and Will in particular required Meganium to heal, Bruno as well if I remember correctly

If we are actually taking seriously Falkner through Whitney, Abra by default cannot be any higher than B either, given it is literally not obtainable/useable whatsoever in any of those fights. According to the stated rules previously. By the strongest form of default, anything not available before what is technically 5 major fights is a gigantic demerit. Likewise Magmar and Spearow (well technically speaking spearow can almost do okay on Whitney, but that is itself relying on incredible rollout counterluck). [Which again, I think this mainly exposes bad criterion for ranking.]

Also being a pedantic pain here... but there is not a single pokemon that doesn't require luck on Falkner given that nothing outspeeds and one shots Pidgeotto (and the flying types available lose outright). I definitely agree that Cynaquil is more annoying than say geodude or totodile, but that doesn't mean the situation is foolproof.
which five major fights? as far as I know, abra only misses on falkner, rival (azalea) and bugsy

maybe the original post should clarify exactly which battles are considered, but it is implicitly assumed that the first rival fight doesn't count, and I don't know where you got the other one (Abra can battle Whitney). I think an argument could be made about Abra on A based on missing out on those match-ups, but B is a stretch - it would have to perform badly on a bunch of battles as well, something that I don't think is proved outside of maybe Karen

My wait is over to post this Cyndaquil log.
=Falkner=
Cyndaquil L11 @ Berry
Tackle has a roll to 3HKO Pidgey and it is close to 5HKOing Pidgeotto (Cyndaquil's Tackle has 50-60% accuracy after beating Pidgey). Pidgey deals 5/32 hp back while Pidgeotto deals 8/32 hp back.

Pretty Bad. It can 1v1 Pidgeotto with a Berry, but a single Tackle miss would result to a loss

At Level 12
Ember 2HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto deals 6/34 hp back. Barring a small miss, its a sweep even without a Berry.
=Bugsy=
Quilava L15-16
Ember 3HKOs Scyther and 1HKOs the rest. A clean sweep
=Rival 2=
Quilava L16 @ Pink Bow
Ember 2HKOs Gastly and is close to 2HKOing Zubat
Pink Bow Swift 5HKOs Croconaw. Croconaw 3HKOs back

Beats 2 at best
=Whitney=
Quilava L20 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Ember 3HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank. Miltank outspeeds and 3HKOs back
Headbutt is close to 2HKOing Clefairy.
Dig 7HKOs Miltank. Miltank almost 3HKOs back. Bad
Rollout 3HKOs Clefairy and the 4th hit 2HKOs Miltank. Could only sweep if Clefairy doesn't chip you in range of a 2HKO from Miltank
=Rival 3=
Quilava L21-22 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Ember 3HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after a Curse), is close to 2HKOing Zubat and is super close to 1HKOing Magnemite
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and is close to 4HKOing Croconaw. Croconaw 3HKOs back
Beats 3 at best
=Morty=
Quilava L23 @ Mint Berry
Ember 2HKOs Gastly, 3HKOs Haunters and 6HKOs Gengar. Not good

Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs L23 Haunter and is close to 1HKOing L21 Haunter and 2HKOing Gengar. At level 25, Dig reliably 2HKOs Gengar and 1HKOs the rest, Gengar still outspeeds.

Rollout 2HKOs Gastly after a Curse, the 3rd hit puts L21 Haunter in red, the 5th hit 1HKOs Gengar. Gastly's Curse + Haunter's Night Shade puts Quilava in range of a Shadow Ball KO from Gengar, who outspeeds it. At level 25, Rollout is close to 1HKOing Gastly after a Curse, the 3rd hit 1HKOs Haunter, the 4th hit 1HKOs Gengar. Needs Luck

Needs Dig TM and at level 25 to reliably sweep
=Chuck=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel is super close to 2HKOing Primeape
Headbutt 5HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs back.

Only beats Primeape
=Jasmine=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Steelix and 1HKOs the rest. Clean Sweep
=Pryce=
Quilava L31 @ Charcoal
Strength has a roll to 2HKO Seel
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Piloswine.
Dewgong is 4HKOed by 3 Strength/Charcoal Flame Wheel followed by Quick Attack. Dewgong outspeeds after an Icy Wind. With 1 Leer, Strength is a roll to 2HKO on Dewgong
Can sweep but, it would need Quick Attack to prevent Dewgong from getting another Rest after it wokes up, and it requires Quilava to be at -1 Speed(which is likely due to Seel's Icy Wind) to beat Dewgong. Leer can work too.
=Rival 4=
Quilava L33-34 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Flame Wheel 2HKOs Haunter and Sneasel, 3HKOs Golbat, and 1HKOs Magnemite
Strength 5HKOs Feraligatr. Feraligatr 3HKOs back
Beats 4 at best
Charcoal Fire Blast 4HKOs Feraligatr and puts Golbat in red
=Clair=
Typhlosion L38 @ Pink Bow / Charcoal
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs the Dragonairs
Charcoal Fire Blast 2HKOs the Dragonairs
Thunderpunch 4HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra almost 1HKOs back
Needs Pink Bow or Charcoal to get 2HKOs on Dragonair. Beats 1 or 2 Dragonairs at best
=Rival 5=
Typhlosion L39-40
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Feraligatr and Golbat
Fire Punch 1HKOs Sneasel, Magneton and Haunter and is close to 1HKOing Kadabra
Can sweep barring hax
=Will=
Typhlosion L40 @ Charcoal
Thunderpunch 2HKOs both Xatus and Slowbro(3HKOs after an Amnesia)
Charcoal Fire Punch 1HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor
Beats 4 at best barring hax, you need 1 heal to beat the last one
Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs L40 Xatu and is close to 1HKOing L42 Xatu
=Koga=
Typhlosion L40 @ Charcoal
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Crobat
Charcoal Fire Punch 3HKOs Muk and 1HKOs the rest. Muk 3HKOs back
Sunny Day Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Muk. Set-up Sunny Day against Forretress
Could possibly sweep barring hax. Sunny Day would increase the chance to sweep

Sunny Day Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs Crobat and puts Muk in red.
=Bruno=
Typhlosion L41 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 3HKOs Machamp and is close to 2HKOing the rest. Machamp 2HKOs back
Top is 2HKOed by Fire Punch into Sunny Day Fire Punch
Onix is 2HKOed by Sunny Day Fire Punch into a normal Fire Punch. Onix likely goes for Sandstorm
With Sunny Day, it beats 3(Top, Chan and Onix) at best

Suuny Day Charcoal Fire Blast 1HKOs all bar Machamp, who was put in red.
=Karen=
Typhlosion L41 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 4HKOs Umbreon, puts Vileplume in red, and is close to KOing Gengar after a Curse.
Thunderpunch is close to 1HKOing Murkrow
Strength 3HKOs Houndoom. Houndoom can 2HKO back
Beats 2 or 3 at best
=Lance=
Typhlosion L42
Magnet Thunderpunch 2HKOs Charizard and is super close to 1HKOing Gyarados

Beats 2 at best
I'm going for B Tier for this one but i might change my mind, i can't see this being in the same tier as Chikorita, who is currently in C Tier, but i had to test that mon first. Cyndaquil's matchup against Falkner varies if reaches Level 12 or not at that point because I had a lot of instances where I failed reaching Level 12 in time from my multiple playthroughs without wild grinding, so its either a sweep or become pretty bad. I can't deny it had some apparent issue, with the primary one being its Quilava-phase; While it does have a good performance against Jasmine and Pryce, i still felt pretty meh overall, especially around Whitney-Morty section. Ember is just weak post-Bugsy that i remember Headbutt was dealing nearly the same damage as Ember on routes. That Headbutt is coming off from its 64 Attack stat, which is comparable to that of Headbutts coming from Jolteon, Umbreon, GS Yanma (65 Atk) and even Bayleef (62 Atk). It needs Dig TM to have a better, consistent performance against Morty, and its a waste because Quilava doesn't need Dig elsewhere, and relying on Rollout cheese against few bosses is... not something i'm fond of. As Typhlosion, its good after it gained Fire Punch and Thunderpunch. Fire Blast is too expensive to the point i won't go for A Tier on this one (idc if it can sweep with SunnyBlast or whatever, that investment alone is more than enough to kick it out from there) and I honestly don't see a big difference between it and Fire Punch aside from a better Bruno matchup and maybe... Karen? Fire Blast against Clair is pretty bad because, yes, you 2HKO the Dragonairs with it, but why would I spend a 110,000 Gold to do it when a lot of Normal-Types and Water-Types (with Icy Wind/Ice Punch/Aurora Beam) can also easily achieved a 2HKO? Even some mons like Beedrill can 2HKO them without paying that kind of money.
question on rival 3 and 4

I notice Rollout wasn't tried for them, do you think it would have helped Quilava?
I don't remember the match-up anymore, but after having looked at the old logs I made on Cyndaquil on the previous thread, and while I don't remember in that much detail, I'm also starting to believe Cyndaquil C
If Rollout allows those victories then I would say B, but otherwise C
 
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If we are actually taking seriously Falkner through Whitney, Abra by default cannot be any higher than B either, given it is literally not obtainable/useable whatsoever in any of those fights. According to the stated rules previously. By the strongest form of default, anything not available before what is technically 5 major fights is a gigantic demerit. Likewise Magmar and Spearow (well technically speaking spearow can almost do okay on Whitney, but that is itself relying on incredible rollout counterluck). [Which again, I think this mainly exposes bad criterion for ranking.]

Also being a pedantic pain here... but there is not a single pokemon that doesn't require luck on Falkner given that nothing outspeeds and one shots Pidgeotto (and the flying types available lose outright). I definitely agree that Cynaquil is more annoying than say geodude or totodile, but that doesn't mean the situation is foolproof.
A) Availability isn't the be all end all. A high ranking is generally based on return on minimal investment. Cyndaquil, while it is a freebie, offers no consistent return on investment for pretty much the entire midgame and even some other parts of the adventure. It's like saying Ledyba is good because it comes early, no, it's still Ledyba with generally awful stats. Great availability cannot save poor major battle performance.

B) Unless you are talking Odd Egg in Crystal Magmar literally cannot be available before Whitney in Gold and Silver, never mind the fact Magby needs to be level 30 to evolve which isn't until Gyms 5-7, and is thus unrealistic to have based on a rough 2 level discrepancy in the rules.

C) What exactly is this "bad criterion for ranking" anyway? Can you elaborate on this some more? What would be ideal criteria?

D) Rival 1 is irrelevant, and beating Faulkner and Bugsy really aren't anything special for the average team unless you are fielding disadvantages. The only early boss I'd call slightly hard aside from Whitney is Silver 2, and mostly because the second stage starter wins the numbers / stats game against most stuff which is unevolved, compounded with few options for counters - he's the "early bird boss" in that Silver only has the advantage due to your relative lack of options, which is notably mitigated right after at Goldenrod City when the Dex starts opening up more.

E) Just because literally nothing one shots Pidgeotto, that doesn't mean it's hard. Not much can OHKO Jasmine's Steelix, yet it is still one of the easiest Gym ace Pokemon. Pidgeotto is only level 9. It might take a few rounds to faint but I'd be genuinely shocked if someone was total party killed by it barring ridiculously bad evasion luck - it's not killing you fast in general unless you bring something weak to Gust.

F) So many bosses in this game aren't "foolproof," not just Faulkner. Miltank has Attract (compounded by most starters being male). Morty and Chuck have Hypnosis. Jasmine and Clair and Lance have Thunder Wave hax. Will has Confuse Ray and Lovely Kiss. Umbreon has Sand-Attack. Koga has literal dice rolls as practically his entire shtick. This game was mostly designed to be annoying almost every other boss fight, almost none of them are "foolproof" in the slightest as most are hard to OHKO due to level disadvantages, and thus, they will get their hax off.
 
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I was asked to share this list on the thread, since gsc has a lot of hax

list of hax

Falkner: Mud-Slap
Bugsy: String Shot, Poison Sting
Rival: Curse, Lick, Hypnosis, Supersonic, Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave
Whitney: Attract, Metronome (can do anything)
Morty: Hypnosis, Curse
Chuck: Leer, Hypnosis, Dynamic Punch
Jasmine: Thunder Wave
Pryce: Icy Wind, Aurora Beam
Clair: Thunder Wave, Dragon Breath, Smokescreen
Will: Confuse Ray, Lovely Kiss, Leech Seed
Koga: Double Team, Supersonic, Toxic, Explosion, Minimize, even more Double Team, even more Toxic
Bruno: critical hit Cross Chop, Swagger
Karen: Confuse Ray, Sand Attack, Stun Spore, Lick, Curse, Destiny Bond...
Lance: Thunder Wave
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
regarding Cyndaquil with C vs B, I'd personally leave it in B-tier, as opposed to dropping it to C-tier, though I can see why some people want it in C-tier.

From personal experience, I have found Quilava to make more impact than most things in C-tier. While its post-Bugsy matchups aren't the best, I'd argue Quilava isn't a deadweight against those; Curlout can *potentially* (albeit unreliably) let it sweep Whitney, Dig lets it harass Morty, and it should sweep Pryce with no issues. Of course, Quilava isn't the best user of those (especially Dig, which you aren't using outside Morty), but they should still count for something, I guess? The E4 matchups are perhaps what I think differentiate the line from other C-tiers (that I can think of), as Typhlosion's only outright bad matchup is Bruno (which apparently can be improved with Fire Blast and Sunny Day, but I have not used those iirc) and it's fairly useful against the rest (it beats Lance's Gyarados and Zard if you ask for those). .The only thing in C-tier that comes close to this usefulness at the E4 that is not a Legendary Pokemon is Scyther and it's C-tier mostly because of availability issues and being consistently meh until Swords Dance (though it does nuke Chuck, but that's a different topic), which Cyndaquil doesn't suffer from that much (perfect availability and it's more usable than Scyther in this period). And Med Slow growth rate has to count for something, imo.

I don't think this has a case for A-tier at all, as it still has numerous issues, such as the speed at which it achieves victories in some matchups, but I think most of us agree that it is not A-tier, so I won't elaborate here

what I take issue with is the idea of Abra being anything lower than S. Kadabra by itself is significantly better than anything you can obtain and, by extension, is the best Pokemon (bar Zam, which is better than it, obviously) for most casuals. Join level of 5 isn't even a huge issue, just teach it Ice Punch and beat the Bulbasaur Picnicker (Hoppip cannot even attack you) and you will be at level 10 after this. Kadabra has no truly bad matchups at all and this has been documented with logs:

Kadabra

Whitney(21): Psybeam 2HKOs Clefairy and 3HKOs Miltank. Mltank goes for Rollout, which also 3HKOs, but you are faster. Great matchup

Silver(22): smashes everything with appropriate elemental punch and Psybeam

Morty(25): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Psybeam. Gengar has a chance of living it, but it seems to be small, not to mention that a level above can probably secure the KO, if you are desperate enough. Great matchup regardless

Chuck(30): Psybeam OHKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath. Avoid a Dynamic Punch and you have a flawless sweep.

Jasmine(30): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Steelix OHKOs with Iron Tail if it hits.

Pryce(30): Magnet Thunder Punch OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong. Fire Punch 2HKOs Piloswine. Great matchup

Silver(33): smashes everything with appropriate elemental punch and Psybeam

Clair(38): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with NMI Ice Punch. Kingdra OHKOs with Hyper Beam while being 3HKOed by Psychic, unfortunately. Great matchup, nevertheless

Silver(40): same as always, hit with strongest move and watch everything die

Will(41): NMI Ice Punch OHKOs Xatu and puts Exeggutor in red. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Slowbro and Fire Punch 2HKOs Jynx. You can take out three of his Pokemon for sure, the rest depends a bit on rolls / AI behavior / etc.

Koga(41): Fire Punch OHKOs Forry and Psychic OHKOs the rest but Muk, which is 2HKOed. Avoid Muk and you beat 4/5 of his team with little hassle.

Bruno(41): outspeeds everything and OHKOes all but Machamp with Psychic. Machamp lives one and OHKOes with Rock Slide after Kadabra has taken a Mach Punch from Hitmonchan.

Karen(42): beats Murkrow, Gengar, and Vileplume


I cannot find my Lance logs locally (and am too lazy to search the thread), but the matchup there is that if you are level 43, you can OHKO the Dragonites and Gyarados (maybe even defeat Charizard? Idr exactly, doubt it'd matter), though there might be rolls somewhere (level 44 should fix this, though). Worth mentioning that Alakazam itself also beats Jasmine's Steelix and Clair's Kingdra.

But yeah, I am not sure why this is even suggested for something lower than S-tier, this thing has no inherent flaws beyond the few Pokemon it cannot KO.
 
regarding Cyndaquil with C vs B, I'd personally leave it in B-tier, as opposed to dropping it to C-tier, though I can see why some people want it in C-tier.

From personal experience, I have found Quilava to make more impact than most things in C-tier. While its post-Bugsy matchups aren't the best, I'd argue Quilava isn't a deadweight against those; Curlout can *potentially* (albeit unreliably) let it sweep Whitney, Dig lets it harass Morty, and it should sweep Pryce with no issues. Of course, Quilava isn't the best user of those (especially Dig, which you aren't using outside Morty), but they should still count for something, I guess? The E4 matchups are perhaps what I think differentiate the line from other C-tiers (that I can think of), as Typhlosion's only outright bad matchup is Bruno (which apparently can be improved with Fire Blast and Sunny Day, but I have not used those iirc) and it's fairly useful against the rest (it beats Lance's Gyarados and Zard if you ask for those). .The only thing in C-tier that comes close to this usefulness at the E4 that is not a Legendary Pokemon is Scyther and it's C-tier mostly because of availability issues and being consistently meh until Swords Dance (though it does nuke Chuck, but that's a different topic), which Cyndaquil doesn't suffer from that much (perfect availability and it's more usable than Scyther in this period). And Med Slow growth rate has to count for something, imo.

I don't think this has a case for A-tier at all, as it still has numerous issues, such as the speed at which it achieves victories in some matchups, but I think most of us agree that it is not A-tier, so I won't elaborate here

what I take issue with is the idea of Abra being anything lower than S. Kadabra by itself is significantly better than anything you can obtain and, by extension, is the best Pokemon (bar Zam, which is better than it, obviously) for most casuals. Join level of 5 isn't even a huge issue, just teach it Ice Punch and beat the Bulbasaur Picnicker (Hoppip cannot even attack you) and you will be at level 10 after this. Kadabra has no truly bad matchups at all and this has been documented with logs:

Kadabra

Whitney(21): Psybeam 2HKOs Clefairy and 3HKOs Miltank. Mltank goes for Rollout, which also 3HKOs, but you are faster. Great matchup

Silver(22): smashes everything with appropriate elemental punch and Psybeam

Morty(25): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Psybeam. Gengar has a chance of living it, but it seems to be small, not to mention that a level above can probably secure the KO, if you are desperate enough. Great matchup regardless

Chuck(30): Psybeam OHKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath. Avoid a Dynamic Punch and you have a flawless sweep.

Jasmine(30): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Steelix OHKOs with Iron Tail if it hits.

Pryce(30): Magnet Thunder Punch OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong. Fire Punch 2HKOs Piloswine. Great matchup

Silver(33): smashes everything with appropriate elemental punch and Psybeam

Clair(38): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with NMI Ice Punch. Kingdra OHKOs with Hyper Beam while being 3HKOed by Psychic, unfortunately. Great matchup, nevertheless

Silver(40): same as always, hit with strongest move and watch everything die

Will(41): NMI Ice Punch OHKOs Xatu and puts Exeggutor in red. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Slowbro and Fire Punch 2HKOs Jynx. You can take out three of his Pokemon for sure, the rest depends a bit on rolls / AI behavior / etc.

Koga(41): Fire Punch OHKOs Forry and Psychic OHKOs the rest but Muk, which is 2HKOed. Avoid Muk and you beat 4/5 of his team with little hassle.

Bruno(41): outspeeds everything and OHKOes all but Machamp with Psychic. Machamp lives one and OHKOes with Rock Slide after Kadabra has taken a Mach Punch from Hitmonchan.

Karen(42): beats Murkrow, Gengar, and Vileplume


I cannot find my Lance logs locally (and am too lazy to search the thread), but the matchup there is that if you are level 43, you can OHKO the Dragonites and Gyarados (maybe even defeat Charizard? Idr exactly, doubt it'd matter), though there might be rolls somewhere (level 44 should fix this, though). Worth mentioning that Alakazam itself also beats Jasmine's Steelix and Clair's Kingdra.

But yeah, I am not sure why this is even suggested for something lower than S-tier, this thing has no inherent flaws beyond the few Pokemon it cannot KO.
While Dig does allow Lava to beat Morty, the usefulness of it is gone from thereon. There is only 1 Dig in the entire game thus it requires you to build your team in a way that only 1 mon gets it period (while yes you can clone the TM, the list is under the assumption you are not using the Cloning Trick.) As a result of using such a valuable TM to maybe get s good MU and removing a valuable move from a team member potentially, I cannot say that this is really a positive for Lava. It's more of a positive/negative in the end. It gets a W, albeit shaky. However, it uses a valuable TM and then never once uses it again.

Another issue I have is the sheer wait time for Typh to actually pull its weight. Prior to the League, Lava has 3 clear wins with no added strings attached, these being Bugsy, Jasmine, and Pryce. All other MUs it has requires either a valuable TM, obscene strats, or just sheer luck in general. These other MUs aren't even a guarantee and literally one wrong thing happens and Lava just dies. Then when you finally get the League, it doesn't even really clean sweep much. Will, Bruno, and Karen stop it (granted we aren't testing it for A potential cause it is by far not A Tier. But I would think if you were B tier, you'd be able to clean sweep more than 1 member and even then that member can stall you out, all other MUs it either takes out half or lower. My mentality is "I waited for this? What a letdown.")
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
While Dig does allow Lava to beat Morty, the usefulness of it is gone from thereon. There is only 1 Dig in the entire game thus it requires you to build your team in a way that only 1 mon gets it period (while yes you can clone the TM, the list is under the assumption you are not using the Cloning Trick.) As a result of using such a valuable TM to maybe get s good MU and removing a valuable move from a team member potentially, I cannot say that this is really a positive for Lava. It's more of a positive/negative in the end. It gets a W, albeit shaky. However, it uses a valuable TM and then never once uses it again.
this is fair and I did mention that Quilava isn't the best user for Dig, though I felt pointing it out (in case we want to assume that Cynda is being used in the most optimal way that is reasonable)

Then when you finally get the League, it doesn't even really clean sweep much. Will, Bruno, and Karen stop it
I don't think it's fair to hold a lack of Will/Karen sweep against anything, including Cyndaquil. Those fights are more-or-less impossible to sweep; Will's Xatu always cause confusion issues for anything that cannot OHKO them (which is a majority of the Pokemon), Karen's Umbreon is more-or-less unkillable (with the exception of few select Pokemon) due to bulk + Sand-attack, and Houndoom generally threatens most things that do not have a type advantage against it.

Most of the criticism towards Cyndaquil is fair, though I still believe it has more usefulness than anything you could shove into C-tier, so I'd rather go with B-tier, though I understand the arguments for C-tier
 
While Dig does allow Lava to beat Morty, the usefulness of it is gone from thereon. There is only 1 Dig in the entire game thus it requires you to build your team in a way that only 1 mon gets it period (while yes you can clone the TM, the list is under the assumption you are not using the Cloning Trick.) As a result of using such a valuable TM to maybe get s good MU and removing a valuable move from a team member potentially, I cannot say that this is really a positive for Lava. It's more of a positive/negative in the end. It gets a W, albeit shaky. However, it uses a valuable TM and then never once uses it again.

Another issue I have is the sheer wait time for Typh to actually pull its weight. Prior to the League, Lava has 3 clear wins with no added strings attached, these being Bugsy, Jasmine, and Pryce. All other MUs it has requires either a valuable TM, obscene strats, or just sheer luck in general. These other MUs aren't even a guarantee and literally one wrong thing happens and Lava just dies. Then when you finally get the League, it doesn't even really clean sweep much. Will, Bruno, and Karen stop it (granted we aren't testing it for A potential cause it is by far not A Tier. But I would think if you were B tier, you'd be able to clean sweep more than 1 member and even then that member can stall you out, all other MUs it either takes out half or lower. My mentality is "I waited for this? What a letdown.")
I don’t think Quilava sweeps Pryce actually. Off the top of my head, Flame Wheel doesn’t 3HKO Dewgong and Icy Wind can make it Rest before you kill it. Then again I didn’t use Return there.

Will Typhlosion did sweep a couple times but I did later find out that was due to ranges. Ty is good for Koga but sweeping there is just hard in general, not a Ty thing. It was decent for the other two.
 
I don’t think Quilava sweeps Pryce actually. Off the top of my head, Flame Wheel doesn’t 3HKO Dewgong and Icy Wind can make it Rest before it kills you. Then again I didn’t use Return there.

Will Typhlosion did sweep a couple times but I did later find out that was due to ranges. Ty is good for Koga but sweeping there is just hard in general, not a Ty thing. It was decent for the other two.
My point still stands though. If I have a mon who has a terrible early and mid game and this is its turnout with the last remaining fights, I struggle to see B tier. And the fact it can't be Pryce now? That just hurts it even more imo.
 
Rollout might be good here to get past the Dewgong issue, also gives Quilava an excuse to use Rollout for something other than to cheese Whitney
This is true but I’d also like to give Rollout to something with an actual Attack stat that can use it.

Golem and Miltank, despite learning Rollout naturally at 34 for both, would for sure take advantage of the Rollout TM better for the midgame gyms than base 64 Attack Quilava.

it’s the same with Dig, it’s better utilized by other mons, and is a crutch for Quilava versus Morty. It does little than put a Band-Aid on Quilava’s base issues.

yeah Cyndaquil is hard to judge but it’s hard to not lean C when it sucks resources away from the team a lot and is just an active hinderance until the Pokémon League.
 
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I don't want to repeat arguments but I think both starters should stay in B and C.

For Cyndaquil I feel people are really overvaluing the Dig TM. It's a 2 turn 60 bp move so it's not something you're excited about using outside of major battles. Dig is good for STAB, Whitney, Morty and Magnemites. Cyndaquil will beat every Magnemite without Dig and there aren't any pokemon after Morty who want Dig. For Whitney you're better off using Rollout or Fury Cutter as Dig is too weak. This means the only reason Cyndaquil needs Dig is for Morty, where you 2HKO Gengar and 1HKO the others at 25. The only pokemon who would want Dig for STAB are Sandshrew and Wooper and if you're using them they can beat Morty and Cyndaquil doesn't need Dig.

For Chikorita it has a strong matchup against Whitney with Sweet Scent and Fury Cutter. It also helps a lot of pokemon beat Lances Dragonites with Light Screen. A lot of Water types can't beat all 3 because they are slower and get chipped down. You can even Sweet Scent before Light Screening to make aure the first Blizzard hits. Meganium is also bulky enough to live Houndoom's Flamethrower and Light Screen.
 
I don't want to repeat arguments but I think both starters should stay in B and C.

For Cyndaquil I feel people are really overvaluing the Dig TM. It's a 2 turn 60 bp move so it's not something you're excited about using outside of major battles. Dig is good for STAB, Whitney, Morty and Magnemites. Cyndaquil will beat every Magnemite without Dig and there aren't any pokemon after Morty who want Dig. For Whitney you're better off using Rollout or Fury Cutter as Dig is too weak. This means the only reason Cyndaquil needs Dig is for Morty, where you 2HKO Gengar and 1HKO the others at 25. The only pokemon who would want Dig for STAB are Sandshrew and Wooper and if you're using them they can beat Morty and Cyndaquil doesn't need Dig.

For Chikorita it has a strong matchup against Whitney with Sweet Scent and Fury Cutter. It also helps a lot of pokemon beat Lances Dragonites with Light Screen. A lot of Water types can't beat all 3 because they are slower and get chipped down. You can even Sweet Scent before Light Screening to make aure the first Blizzard hits. Meganium is also bulky enough to live Houndoom's Flamethrower and Light Screen.
Unfortunately, it's just more than Dig, it also wants Rollout which some Pokemon would prefer to have over it. Those Pokemon can still function but they would love to have Rollout. Fury Cutter is also something Pinsir desperately wants as it enables it to sweep Whitney, Chuck, Pryce, and Clair (Clair is incredibly shaky). Granted this is one out of many Pokemon but its the same case as Dig and Rollout, there are better Pokemon for it meaning you would need to plan your team in advance. It's also the most TM dependent Pokemon in order to stay relevant.

As a result, I have to look at Quil outside of its MUs now. How is it affecting my overall team potential, what TMs does it need, etc. Sadly the more I dip into this, the more I see negatives of the mon.
 
I think Quilava is the definition of "just because you can give it X, Y, and Z TMs" doesn't mean you should. All of the marginally useful TMs are better used by other mons who get actual STAB off them.

Pokemon who like Dig: Sandshrew and Quagsire and Onix / Steelix (aside from Quagsire's level 35 EQ, all three Pokemon literally get no STAB attacks via level-up), Geodude line (better than unreliable Magnitude). That's four things off the top of my head who want it. It's for sure a contested TM. Why does a Fire type like Quilava need it more? For one battle? That's just making it even more clear that you're overcompensating for its flaws at that point.

Pokemon who like Rollout: Miltank and Golem (both get it at 34, but both kinda wouldn't mind it earlier, both hit harder than Cyndaquil). Never mind the fact Rollout really isn't that reliable for any Pokemon.

Pokemon who like Fury Cutter: Pinsir, Scyther.

So there is definitely some competition for literally all three of those TMs. Seems like a big deal to me, and only further emphasizes how Quilava chugs TMs like steroids in a desperate attempt to remain relevant. What if a player used none of these one-time TMs? How would Quilava fare then?
 
So me having been gone awhile seems to have made me lose a few brain cells and forget that in Cystal, Lugia is post elite 4 and as such pointless to be testing. Guess I am grabbing Suicune to serve a similar point of a very high level but late legend and if the wait was worth it. Certainly will help with the other 3 because slow level up is really painful when you restrict yourself on grinding.
 
The thing is you only need to beat a trainer once. It doesn't matter that both Cyndaquil and Pinsir want Fury Cutter for Whitney. You'll teach it to Pinsir who might use it in a minor matchup and get an extra moveslot on Cyndaquil. Competition only matters if multiple Pokemon would want the same TM for different battles.
 
The thing is you only need to beat a trainer once. It doesn't matter that both Cyndaquil and Pinsir want Fury Cutter for Whitney. You'll teach it to Pinsir who might use it in a minor matchup and get an extra moveslot on Cyndaquil. Competition only matters if multiple Pokemon would want the same TM for different battles.
Cyndaquil doesn't even need extra moveslots so this is kind of moot.

It literally just uses Ember / Flame Wheel / Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, and then maybe Strength / Return.

I tend to view Pokemon on their own merits, yes. But I also have a tolerance threshold. If one Pokemon is desperately underperforming unless I shove multiple one-time TMs into its gaping maw, it's clear there's a fundamental problem there.

Even in BW1's tier list, where competition was severely downplayed due to reusable TMs, you'll notice all three S tiers have vastly self-sufficient movepools. Darumaka gets Fire Punch, Hammer Arm, Flare Blitz, and a bunch of other great stuff via level up. Scraggy gets Faint Attack, Brick Break, and Payback by level. Drilbur gets freaking Earthquake at level 33 if you keep it unevolved two levels, not to mention natural Rock Slide at level 29 without a TM. All of them, with the possible exception of Drilbur needing a little babying to get to Dig at 19, are self-sufficient.

Cynaquil isn't even remotely self-sufficient until Typhlosion, even by the standards of bad Gen 2 movepools. Cyndaquil's main Fire STAB isn't very useful, and it hogs TMs of other types in an attempt to try to gain a remote semblance of relevancy. I was honestly wishing it was an Electric type more in the final battles half the time.
 
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