GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

I'm putting together a pdf with all routes for Pokemon Perfect Crystal and want to add certain spots where top tier pokemon can suitably gain their recommended EVs.

If any of you could give your opinion on this it would be appreciated. Recommended Pokemon for new players to choose will help them progress without having to backtrack or start over with new Pokemon as often.


Is it easy to read? Is there something you think could be added? I will add a legend and denote which routes are most suitable for EV training specific top tier Pokemon.

Legend is:
  • Surf
  • Old Rod
  • Good Rod
  • Super Rod
  • Headbutt
  • Exception - for special encounters or changes from original Crystal which will have a table explaining how.
  • % under the time of day means it is a land encounter
  • Green check means you have to hit a tree.
  • Green Check with a + will means that it is only a rare encounter when hitting a tree.
  • Small Green check with % means that you can find on land and in tree.
  • Blue Check means Surf or Fishing.


View attachment 432168
That's pretty impressive ngl, but unfortunately this thread pertains to base GSC only, not ROM hacks. I'm not sure if there's a different thread where it would be appropriate to post that, but you can certainly try looking or ask a moderator to make your own thread.
 
That's pretty impressive ngl, but unfortunately this thread pertains to base GSC only, not ROM hacks. I'm not sure if there's a different thread where it would be appropriate to post that, but you can certainly try looking or ask a moderator to make your own thread.
Base stats weren't changed in this romhack though gym leaders were changed a bit. That's something I can figure on my own since I won't be going too in depth. I will probably do the starters and several often used pokemon.
 
Here is an example of how I was going to make a description for each Pokemon. I'm going to add a table on the left and right side of the stage for user experiences throughout the game. What do you all think?

I will put the most mentioned moves on the left.

On the right will be the stats. A Dark blue star Next to the stat bar means it is in the top 25 for that particular stat. Light blue will be top 50. Purple will be Top 10. I may just do this for the top 50 ranked overall Pokemon. Any help from those who have tested particular Pokemon would be appreciated and I'll put your username on the description.



Pokemon-Perfect-Crystal-Descriptions.jpg
 
Here is an example of how I was going to make a description for each Pokemon. I'm going to add a table on the left and right side of the stage for user experiences throughout the game. What do you all think?

I will put the most mentioned moves on the left.

On the right will be the stats. A Dark blue star Next to the stat bar means it is in the top 25 for that particular stat. Light blue will be top 50. Purple will be Top 10. I may just do this for the top 50 ranked overall Pokemon. Any help from those who have tested particular Pokemon would be appreciated and I'll put your username on the description.



View attachment 432323
This thread is under my ownership and has its own way of dealing with mons. While appreciate the enthusiasm, I would like you to refrain.
 
This thread is under my ownership and has its own way of dealing with mons. While appreciate the enthusiasm, I would like you to refrain.
This isn't about that. There is no need to feel threatened over a public forum. Your way of dealing with mons is what I like. It is a free discussion that everyone is having. I am discussing with them and then using that free information in other things if they agree. I don't have to include yours if you don't want, though speaking to other people in here has nothing to do with you.
 
This isn't about that. There is no need to feel threatened over a public forum. Your way of dealing with mons is what I like. It is a free discussion that everyone is having. I am discussing with them and then using that free information in other things if they agree. I don't have to include yours if you don't want, though speaking to other people in here has nothing to do with you.
I think you misunderstand. This doesn’t belong in this thread. You can make a separate one if the mods allows so doing the way you wish to do it. But for here, that’s a lot of unnecessary work that doesn’t need to be done in this thread at all.
 
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I think you misunderstand. This doesn’t belong in this thread. You can make a separate one if the mods allows so doing the way you wish to do it. But for here, that’s a lot of unnecessary work that doesn’t need to be done in this thread at all.
I put what I put and I wasn't going to post more, though now that it is there, people can message me. There isn't a problem.
 
I put what I put and I wasn't going to post more, though now that it is there, people can message me. There isn't a problem.
Regardless or not, this is for GSC, not any rom hack that uses GSC as a base and shouldn’t have even been mentioned. Please keep any and all conversations relevant to the actual game we are tiering. I have no issue if you want to test a mon, but if you choose to do it here, you must abide by the guidelines and rules listed in the OP. As stated prior, if you want to do whatever you’ve talked about, inquire with a mod if the the thread doesn’t exist. (This is now officially off topic)

Either today or tomorrow, Cyndaquil will be placed in either C or B tier provided with my logs and in depth analysis of every vote that has been made to give a fair and accurate tiering for it.
 
Apologies for the double post. I decided to refrain from making any comments about tiering until I was done with my test.

And you should, though good thing you can find some for free...it's not as expensive as you try to make out.
The point being made here is that if you do it to Typh, you can do it to anyone. It's not efficient either as the casual person is just going to use ones that are found on the ground. 9,800 is a pretty big chunk of change honestly at any give point in the game. It's not recommended you do this at all either. It creates a grossly overpowered mon in the end. Besides, Zam gets by fine without that. Just use the freebies. Also GC TMs are very ill advised seeing as they are such a huge investment and you generally do not get them until Pryce if you play casually and do not spend your money willy nilly.

Moving onto the test that involves Cynda now.

Pidgey (17): Gust 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther. They don't threaten you. Amazing MU

Geodude (15): Rock Throw 2HKOs the cocoons and OHKOs Scyther. Amazing MU

Quilava (16): Ember is a OHKO on the cocoons and a 3HKO on Scyther. Amazing MU.

Rival (Azalea)

Pidgeotto (18): Gust 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat, 4HKOs Croc. Good MU

Quilava (16): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat. Hard L to Croc.

Geodude (16): Magnitude 5 and up OHKOs Gastly. Rock Throw OHKOs Zubat. Hard L to Croc.

Quilava (21): Tested both Rollout and Fury Cutter. Rollout is the vastly safer option as Rollout 3 takes out Clefairy having Miltank take a 4 and 5 for the W. Fury Cutter is more dependent on Clefairy not hitting you with a bunch of Doubleslaps. If you fall to about half HP (basically the upper range of Green bar), Rollout 2HKOs off Miltank. Neither test relied on the inefficient Smokescreen strat. Nor did it require outside Berry help.

Rollout swept twice, and Fury Cutter once in a total of 6 tests.

Geodude (21): DCurl + Rollout equals an incredibly easy win. Granted you have a chance to miss but Whitney does absolutely nothing to threaten you.

Pidgeotto (21): Return is a 2HKO on Clefairy and about a 6HKO on Miltank. Miltank 3HKOs with Rollout.

Miltank (19-21)): DCurl + Rollout sweep Morty. Mint Berry is a must to ensure you are not interrupted on Haunter 1. Gastly 1 is an OHKO, Haunter 1 is a 2HKO, and the rest are all OHKO. Amazing MU

Otto (22-(23)): No matter what you do, Otto fails here. Mint Berry and Beak were both tested. Without Beak, Otto fails to 2HKO Haunter 1 (It also fails to OHKO Gastly). Gengar is a 4HKO with Beak but you won't see this due to Curse damage.

Golem (25): DCurl + Rollout is the way to go. Due to Golem's low speed, you are kinda stuck between using PRZCure or Mint. Use Mint. You are already slow but Sleep is far worse in this scenario due to need to land Rollouts. Everything is an OHKO from this. Dig was tested but there was no sweep. You fall to Curse Damage on Haunter 2.

Quilava (22 - 23): Using Dig is your only method of dealing with Morty. Interesting thing happened when testing. Morty can counterplay your Dig strat by Mimicing it and shooting that strat in the foot as Haunter is slower than Lava here. It doesn't happen all the time as he did it in another test but didn't click Dig. You also cannot jebait the Mimic with Leer or anything as he will Curse instead. Lava takes out 2/4 in a MU that everyone says is favorable. It is not. Meh MU.

Otto (29): You could use Mint Berry but you need Beak to sweep here if that is your goal. Beak makes Gust a 2HKO on Ape who tends to Leer more than anything. Wrath is a 3HKO range (4HKO) with Gust so it's better to do 2 Gusts and a Return (you outspeed everyone too). Honestly speaking, Otto's last good MU.

Miltank (24): Pretty much loses here but you do have a chance to sweep if Wrath misses DPunch but any Mind Reader will end this. Return with Pink Bow is a 2HKO on Ape and a 4HKO on Wrath. This is Friend Ball Miltank too so bear that in mind, meaning PB Strength will do far less in terms of damage and effectively make this MU non winnable potentially. PB Strength still 2HKOs Ape but it looks like a range. Wrath is still a 4HKO but the damage is far less of course.

Golem (26): You take out Ape with a 2HKO Dig, Wrath clicks Surf and you just gargle on the saltwater derived from your tears as you watch your sentient rock sink.

Lava (27): You don't even get through Primeape.....B tier amiright?

Lava (31) w/Charcoal: Flame Wheel OHKOs both Mags and 2HKOs Steelix. It is important to note that Flame Wheel is 100% required to pull this off as Ember will leave the Mags alive for them to kill you.

Golem (26): Dig OHKOs the Mags, but you do nothing to Steelix who OHKOs with Iron Tail.

Otto (29): Leedle. Mud-Slap is a 2HKO on Mags who just OHKOs with TBolt. It's more than 10HKO on Steelix

Miltank (25): Effectively does nothing here as well. Mud Slap hits less than Otto's and Surf deals the exact same damage.


Quilava (34) w/ Charcoal: Return is a 2HKO on Seel and a 4HKO on Dewgong. Flame Wheel is a 4HKO on Swine due to Hyper Potion. Legit does not threaten you.

Golem (30) w/Pink Bow: Fails to Sweep as it is walled by Pilo due to Icy Wind speed drop. You are able to take 1 Blizzard however Rollout 3 is not enough to take it out. DCurl + Rollout also doesn't work because Seel hits you with an Icy Wind and an Aurora Beam which makes Blizzard one shot you instead. Bad MU.

Miltank (28): w/Pink Bow: Finally redeeming itself. Return is an OHKO on Seel, a 2HKO on Dewgong, and a 2HKO on Piloswine. They do nothing to threaten you either.

Otto (29): Tested with PB and SB. Both are a loss to Dewgong. You 2HKO Seel and 3HKO Dewgong (Return). Fly is a 2HKO on Seel and about a 5HKO on Dewgong. Never saw Pilo but I assume about the same ranges.

Otto (32): Golbat is a 3HKO with Return with no PB (2HKO with) and a 2HKO on Magnemite with Mud Slap, Fly is a 2HKO on Haunter, Return is a 2HKO on Sneasel. You cannot kill Gatr in time. Basically Otto does not sweep as Golbat walls you with Confuse Ray (which btw, Pink Bow boosts confusion damage by 20%). Pack a PRZCureBerry for Mags as it like to Twave.

Miltank (30 - 31): Pack PRZCure for the TWave. Return 2HKOs Golbat. Fire Punch 2HKOs Mags. You need to start Rollout on Haunter as it will Curse to kill itself while you are on Rollout 2. Rollout 3 OHKOs Sneasel and the remaining beat Gatr. Good MU.

Golem (33): Stopped by Gatr. DCurl + Rollout OHKOs Golbat, Haunter, Sneasel, and a Dig beats Mags (you can use Magnitude as well).

Lava (35): Charcoal Flame Wheel 3HKOs Golbat, OHKOs Mags and Sneasel and Dig 2HKOs Haunter (Flame Wheel is a 2HKO as well but you take some damage if you opt this way while you simply take a Curse on the way back up)

Typh (36): TPunch 2HKOs Golbat and Gatr (ranges around 3HKO surprisingly). Flame Wheel OHKOs everything barring Haunter who is left with a smidge of HP.

Miltank (35): Sweeps albeit shaky. Use PRZCureBerry for the TWave on Nair 1. You want her to open with Surf as that limits her TWaves. Curlout take 3 Rollouts to take out Nair 1, 4 and 5 OHKO the other Nairs (You outspeed all of them) and Kingdra is a slugfest with Return/Strength. Smokescreen is annoying but out of 6 tests I got 3 sweeps so 50/50 on a sweep. Pretty darn good.

Golem (35): Surf OHKOs you. Don't even try.

Typh (37): Surf 3HKOs you and you don't even threaten a Nair remotely.

Pidgeot (36): You take out 2 Nairs due to Twave limiting you. PRZCure is used early one on Nair 1. Return is a 2HKO on all Nairs. Kingdra is about a 4HKO. Does better than Typh

Miltank (38): Sweeps with Curlout. By the time you finish off Curlout, 4 of his members are down. Sneasel is a 2HKO, Golbat, Magneton, and Haunter are all OHKOs. Return is an OHKO on Kadabra and a 3HKO on Gatr. Takes out 6/6 mons.

Golem (37): You 2HKO Sneasel with Curlout before losing to Gatr and a Water move. Curlout 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs everything esle after. Takes out 5/6 Mons

Pidgeot (37-38): Return with PB ranges on an OHKO to 2HKO on Sneasel. Mud-Slap is a 3HKO on Magneton (You lose this fight as well). Fly is an "OHKO" on Haunter (It offs itself with Curse). Return is a 3HKO on Gatr, OHKO on Kadabra, and a 2HKO on Golbat. Takes out 5/6 Mons.

Typhlosion (39-41 (Ends at level 41)): Charcoal Fire Punch is an OHKO on Haunter, Magneton, and Sneasel, 2HKO on Kadabra. Thunder Punch is a 2HKO on Gatr and Golbat. Takes out 6/6 mons

Did a little VR Grind here to get everyone at the bare minimum of 40.

Miltank (40-41): Return sweeps Will but you might want to put on a Bitter Berry for Confuse Ray. Return is a 2HKO on all Xatu, an OHKO on Jynx, 2HKO on Eggexutor, and a 3HKO on Slowbro. None of them really threaten you as you outspeed but Confuse Ray can cause an L. 6/6 are taken out.

Pidgeot (40-41): Bitter Berry is a must. Return is a 2HKO on all Xatu and an OHKO on Jynx. 3-4HKO on Slowbro (all it does is use Amnesia) and Fly is a 2HKO on Eggs. 6/6 taken out.

Golem (40-41): Just don't bother with this. You can take out Slowbro barely and that is about it. Eggs walls you if you aren't using Curlout and everything outspeeds you. Horrendous MU.

Typhlosion (41-42): You cannot sweep. I tested 4 times. Tpunch is a 2HKO on Xatus and a 3HKO on Slowbro. You take too much damage from Xatu 1 and Slowbro. Fire Punch boosted with Charcoal OHKOs Jynx (It is a range without) and OHKOs Eggs. Magnet Tpunch does not matter here as the HKOs are the same without it.

Miltank (40-41): PB Return 2HKOs everything barring Forretress which is instead 2HKO'd by Fire Punch.

Golem (41-42): EQ is a 2HKO on Ariados, an OHKO on Muk, a 3HKO on Forretress. Rollout is a 3HKO on Crobat and an OHKO on Venomoth due to it being Rollout 4. Not a good MU due to Double Team but no mon can easily sweep Koga anyways due to hax.

Pidgeot (40-41): Fly is an OHKO on Ariados. PB Return is a 2HKO on Muk, Crobat, and Venomoth (Fly is a 1-2HKO). You do nothing to Forretress due to it using Protect on your Fly.

Typholosion (42-43): Does not sweep due to Muk. Fire Punch is an OHKO on Ariados, Forretress, and Venomoth with no Charcoal. Crobat is a 2HKO with Magnet Thunder Punch.

Miltank (41): PB Return 2HKOs Top (You should prob DCurl on Top's Dig Turn), OHKOs Lee and 2HKOs Chan. 3-4HKOs Champ but one Cross Chop OHKOs you. You do nothing to Onix unless you invested EQ into Miltank.

Pidgeot (40-41): Return (Non PB) is a 2HKO on Top. It will Protect on Fly turns. Fly with Sharp Beak is an OHKO on Lee and Chan. 2HKO on Champ. Be wary of Rock Slide, seems to be a range. You do nothing to Onix.

Golem (40-41): EQ is an OHKO on Top due to Dig doubling EQ's Power. EQ is a 2HKO on Lee and Chan. 3HKO on Champ. 2HKO on Onix. You don't get past Lee often which is his second mon.

Typh (43-44): You cannot Sweep at all. Charcoal Fire Punch is a 2HKO on Top, Chan, and Lee while a 3-6KO on Machamp (Due to Potion but I never saw it as I can't break past Champ before it kills me). Champ 2HKOs you with Cross Chop. Onix is not threatened by you at all.

Typhlosion (44): You 4HKO Umbreon with Charcoal Fire Punch. You take Sand Attacks. You whiff moves. Gengar is a 2HKO with Dig but it is advised you do Fire Punch as it will be KO's from using Curse as well. (If you Dig, she does not use Curse right away). FIre Punch OHKOs Vileplume and Thunder Punch OHKOs Murkrow. Dig is a 3HKO on Doom, but if you invest EQ it is a 2HKO. Regardless, you do not sweep due to Curse Damage, Sand Attacks, and Doom chucking HP.

Miltank (42): PRZCureberry is used due to Plume. Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon (PB does NOT decrease this range), a 2HKO on Doom, Plume, and Murkrow. Gengar is OHKO's by EQ, though you do not outspeed Gengar so the sweep is very unlikely due to Curse.

Pidgept (42): PB Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon. 2HKO on Doom and Murkrow. Fly is a OHKO on Gengar due to Curse and a 2HKO on Plume. You don't sweep but take out 4/5 mons before Doom kills you.

Golem: (42): EQ is a 3HKO on Umbreon. You do nothing to Vileplume as it OHKOs you. Murkrow is a 2HKO on Rollout but Doom kills you due to damage. Gengar is OHKO'd by EQ.

Typh: (44): TPunch with Magnet is a range on Gyarados but most often not it is an OHKO. Zard is a 2HKO as is Aero but Aero 2HKOs with Rock Slide and you don't outspeed. You do very little to the Nites.

Miltank (43): Sweeps Lance albeit not a guarantee. Curlout 2HKOs Gyarados while Rollout 3,4,5 take out Nite 1, 2, and Aero respectively. Aero does outspeed causing the sweep to fail but if it misses, you win. Zard is 2HKO'd while Nite 3 is OHKOed. While not a clear sweep, the potential goes far. Even if you don't sweep, you take out 4 of his 6 mons.

Golem (42): Takes out Aero and Zard with Rollout and that is it. Nite (Blizzard) OHKOs you.

Pidgeot (42): PB Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Zard. You lose to Nite (Thunder) and Nite (Blizzard). You do nothing to Nites and Aero.

So, let's get the big one out of the way here. Cyndaquil. I counted all noms that had logs. If they did not have a log, they were not accounted for. Due to Cynda being one of the most controversial Pokemon, I had to take into account logs only. Any logs that had any suspect claims were also discounted (there were none. This was the in depth analysis) As a result, talllies were made and it is at a Tie. 2 As, 4 Bs. and 4 Cs. Cynda is moving to C Tier. As for the reasonings, those have been plenty explained enough as is. TM Hog, underwhelming performances (Even the MUs people said were good were in fact, not.), and just an abysmal time just waiting for it to do little.

While yes, the performance shown in the League resembles a B Tier, I am not testing an individual part of the mon but the entirety of its life. Unfortunately, as it has been shown as many others, the midgame is atrocious and that weighs fairly heavy enough for it to carry over. Even as you get it by Clair, she craps on it, leaving the League to really dictate where it will go. If Typh maybe at least swept on League Member, I would not mind it being in B, but that didn't happen after many tests.

Fire Blast was not used due to cost and its unreliability. The end game throws way too much Hax at you to be unreliable. Sunny Day was not used either simply because you can get Paralyzed/Confused or just never hit (Koga/Karen). EQ was not used as it would replace Dig which was shown to not really improve much anyways (Houndoom on Karen would still kill you as it outspeeds and Curse would finish you off.) It was better off to be given to Golem anyways since it would have relied on Magnitude.

Smokscreen and Berries for Whitney are not required, that's just extra effort to make a bad mon look good. Yes, it can sweep. Doesn't mean the mon is good after that as I showed (having to wait 2 major MUs outweighs Whitney)

Cyndaquil is now blacklisted from discussion and will remain in C Tier. Any further talks on Quil will be ignored by me. I'm over this thing derailing threads and causing them to close.

Pidgey will be put in C Tier.

Miltank was tested 2 ways. Friend Ball and Non. The preferred way it Non. You lose Morty if you do FB which is not advised as that is a VERY good MU for Miltank to have under it's belt. PB Strength was just good enough to get by in most scenarios anyway. But later on, PB Return just picks up kills like crazy. Miltank is heading A/B Tier with a lean on A.

Golem is a huge letdown and will reside in C Tier. It effectively does very little post Whitney and is just killed by almost everything.
 
Apologies for the double post. I decided to refrain from making any comments about tiering until I was done with my test.



The point being made here is that if you do it to Typh, you can do it to anyone. It's not efficient either as the casual person is just going to use ones that are found on the ground. 9,800 is a pretty big chunk of change honestly at any give point in the game. It's not recommended you do this at all either. It creates a grossly overpowered mon in the end. Besides, Zam gets by fine without that. Just use the freebies. Also GC TMs are very ill advised seeing as they are such a huge investment and you generally do not get them until Pryce if you play casually and do not spend your money willy nilly.

Moving onto the test that involves Cynda now.

Pidgey (17): Gust 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther. They don't threaten you. Amazing MU

Geodude (15): Rock Throw 2HKOs the cocoons and OHKOs Scyther. Amazing MU

Quilava (16): Ember is a OHKO on the cocoons and a 3HKO on Scyther. Amazing MU.

Rival (Azalea)

Pidgeotto (18): Gust 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat, 4HKOs Croc. Good MU

Quilava (16): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat. Hard L to Croc.

Geodude (16): Magnitude 5 and up OHKOs Gastly. Rock Throw OHKOs Zubat. Hard L to Croc.

Quilava (21): Tested both Rollout and Fury Cutter. Rollout is the vastly safer option as Rollout 3 takes out Clefairy having Miltank take a 4 and 5 for the W. Fury Cutter is more dependent on Clefairy not hitting you with a bunch of Doubleslaps. If you fall to about half HP (basically the upper range of Green bar), Rollout 2HKOs off Miltank. Neither test relied on the inefficient Smokescreen strat. Nor did it require outside Berry help.

Rollout swept twice, and Fury Cutter once in a total of 6 tests.

Geodude (21): DCurl + Rollout equals an incredibly easy win. Granted you have a chance to miss but Whitney does absolutely nothing to threaten you.

Pidgeotto (21): Return is a 2HKO on Clefairy and about a 6HKO on Miltank. Miltank 3HKOs with Rollout.

Miltank (19-21)): DCurl + Rollout sweep Morty. Mint Berry is a must to ensure you are not interrupted on Haunter 1. Gastly 1 is an OHKO, Haunter 1 is a 2HKO, and the rest are all OHKO. Amazing MU

Otto (22-(23)): No matter what you do, Otto fails here. Mint Berry and Beak were both tested. Without Beak, Otto fails to 2HKO Haunter 1 (It also fails to OHKO Gastly). Gengar is a 4HKO with Beak but you won't see this due to Curse damage.

Golem (25): DCurl + Rollout is the way to go. Due to Golem's low speed, you are kinda stuck between using PRZCure or Mint. Use Mint. You are already slow but Sleep is far worse in this scenario due to need to land Rollouts. Everything is an OHKO from this. Dig was tested but there was no sweep. You fall to Curse Damage on Haunter 2.

Quilava (22 - 23): Using Dig is your only method of dealing with Morty. Interesting thing happened when testing. Morty can counterplay your Dig strat by Mimicing it and shooting that strat in the foot as Haunter is slower than Lava here. It doesn't happen all the time as he did it in another test but didn't click Dig. You also cannot jebait the Mimic with Leer or anything as he will Curse instead. Lava takes out 2/4 in a MU that everyone says is favorable. It is not. Meh MU.

Otto (29): You could use Mint Berry but you need Beak to sweep here if that is your goal. Beak makes Gust a 2HKO on Ape who tends to Leer more than anything. Wrath is a 3HKO range (4HKO) with Gust so it's better to do 2 Gusts and a Return (you outspeed everyone too). Honestly speaking, Otto's last good MU.

Miltank (24): Pretty much loses here but you do have a chance to sweep if Wrath misses DPunch but any Mind Reader will end this. Return with Pink Bow is a 2HKO on Ape and a 4HKO on Wrath. This is Friend Ball Miltank too so bear that in mind, meaning PB Strength will do far less in terms of damage and effectively make this MU non winnable potentially. PB Strength still 2HKOs Ape but it looks like a range. Wrath is still a 4HKO but the damage is far less of course.

Golem (26): You take out Ape with a 2HKO Dig, Wrath clicks Surf and you just gargle on the saltwater derived from your tears as you watch your sentient rock sink.

Lava (27): You don't even get through Primeape.....B tier amiright?

Lava (31) w/Charcoal: Flame Wheel OHKOs both Mags and 2HKOs Steelix. It is important to note that Flame Wheel is 100% required to pull this off as Ember will leave the Mags alive for them to kill you.

Golem (26): Dig OHKOs the Mags, but you do nothing to Steelix who OHKOs with Iron Tail.

Otto (29): Leedle. Mud-Slap is a 2HKO on Mags who just OHKOs with TBolt. It's more than 10HKO on Steelix

Miltank (25): Effectively does nothing here as well. Mud Slap hits less than Otto's and Surf deals the exact same damage.


Quilava (34) w/ Charcoal: Return is a 2HKO on Seel and a 4HKO on Dewgong. Flame Wheel is a 4HKO on Swine due to Hyper Potion. Legit does not threaten you.

Golem (30) w/Pink Bow: Fails to Sweep as it is walled by Pilo due to Icy Wind speed drop. You are able to take 1 Blizzard however Rollout 3 is not enough to take it out. DCurl + Rollout also doesn't work because Seel hits you with an Icy Wind and an Aurora Beam which makes Blizzard one shot you instead. Bad MU.

Miltank (28): w/Pink Bow: Finally redeeming itself. Return is an OHKO on Seel, a 2HKO on Dewgong, and a 2HKO on Piloswine. They do nothing to threaten you either.

Otto (29): Tested with PB and SB. Both are a loss to Dewgong. You 2HKO Seel and 3HKO Dewgong (Return). Fly is a 2HKO on Seel and about a 5HKO on Dewgong. Never saw Pilo but I assume about the same ranges.

Otto (32): Golbat is a 3HKO with Return with no PB (2HKO with) and a 2HKO on Magnemite with Mud Slap, Fly is a 2HKO on Haunter, Return is a 2HKO on Sneasel. You cannot kill Gatr in time. Basically Otto does not sweep as Golbat walls you with Confuse Ray (which btw, Pink Bow boosts confusion damage by 20%). Pack a PRZCureBerry for Mags as it like to Twave.

Miltank (30 - 31): Pack PRZCure for the TWave. Return 2HKOs Golbat. Fire Punch 2HKOs Mags. You need to start Rollout on Haunter as it will Curse to kill itself while you are on Rollout 2. Rollout 3 OHKOs Sneasel and the remaining beat Gatr. Good MU.

Golem (33): Stopped by Gatr. DCurl + Rollout OHKOs Golbat, Haunter, Sneasel, and a Dig beats Mags (you can use Magnitude as well).

Lava (35): Charcoal Flame Wheel 3HKOs Golbat, OHKOs Mags and Sneasel and Dig 2HKOs Haunter (Flame Wheel is a 2HKO as well but you take some damage if you opt this way while you simply take a Curse on the way back up)

Typh (36): TPunch 2HKOs Golbat and Gatr (ranges around 3HKO surprisingly). Flame Wheel OHKOs everything barring Haunter who is left with a smidge of HP.

Miltank (35): Sweeps albeit shaky. Use PRZCureBerry for the TWave on Nair 1. You want her to open with Surf as that limits her TWaves. Curlout take 3 Rollouts to take out Nair 1, 4 and 5 OHKO the other Nairs (You outspeed all of them) and Kingdra is a slugfest with Return/Strength. Smokescreen is annoying but out of 6 tests I got 3 sweeps so 50/50 on a sweep. Pretty darn good.

Golem (35): Surf OHKOs you. Don't even try.

Typh (37): Surf 3HKOs you and you don't even threaten a Nair remotely.

Pidgeot (36): You take out 2 Nairs due to Twave limiting you. PRZCure is used early one on Nair 1. Return is a 2HKO on all Nairs. Kingdra is about a 4HKO. Does better than Typh

Miltank (38): Sweeps with Curlout. By the time you finish off Curlout, 4 of his members are down. Sneasel is a 2HKO, Golbat, Magneton, and Haunter are all OHKOs. Return is an OHKO on Kadabra and a 3HKO on Gatr. Takes out 6/6 mons.

Golem (37): You 2HKO Sneasel with Curlout before losing to Gatr and a Water move. Curlout 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs everything esle after. Takes out 5/6 Mons

Pidgeot (37-38): Return with PB ranges on an OHKO to 2HKO on Sneasel. Mud-Slap is a 3HKO on Magneton (You lose this fight as well). Fly is an "OHKO" on Haunter (It offs itself with Curse). Return is a 3HKO on Gatr, OHKO on Kadabra, and a 2HKO on Golbat. Takes out 5/6 Mons.

Typhlosion (39-41 (Ends at level 41)): Charcoal Fire Punch is an OHKO on Haunter, Magneton, and Sneasel, 2HKO on Kadabra. Thunder Punch is a 2HKO on Gatr and Golbat. Takes out 6/6 mons

Did a little VR Grind here to get everyone at the bare minimum of 40.

Miltank (40-41): Return sweeps Will but you might want to put on a Bitter Berry for Confuse Ray. Return is a 2HKO on all Xatu, an OHKO on Jynx, 2HKO on Eggexutor, and a 3HKO on Slowbro. None of them really threaten you as you outspeed but Confuse Ray can cause an L. 6/6 are taken out.

Pidgeot (40-41): Bitter Berry is a must. Return is a 2HKO on all Xatu and an OHKO on Jynx. 3-4HKO on Slowbro (all it does is use Amnesia) and Fly is a 2HKO on Eggs. 6/6 taken out.

Golem (40-41): Just don't bother with this. You can take out Slowbro barely and that is about it. Eggs walls you if you aren't using Curlout and everything outspeeds you. Horrendous MU.

Typhlosion (41-42): You cannot sweep. I tested 4 times. Tpunch is a 2HKO on Xatus and a 3HKO on Slowbro. You take too much damage from Xatu 1 and Slowbro. Fire Punch boosted with Charcoal OHKOs Jynx (It is a range without) and OHKOs Eggs. Magnet Tpunch does not matter here as the HKOs are the same without it.

Miltank (40-41): PB Return 2HKOs everything barring Forretress which is instead 2HKO'd by Fire Punch.

Golem (41-42): EQ is a 2HKO on Ariados, an OHKO on Muk, a 3HKO on Forretress. Rollout is a 3HKO on Crobat and an OHKO on Venomoth due to it being Rollout 4. Not a good MU due to Double Team but no mon can easily sweep Koga anyways due to hax.

Pidgeot (40-41): Fly is an OHKO on Ariados. PB Return is a 2HKO on Muk, Crobat, and Venomoth (Fly is a 1-2HKO). You do nothing to Forretress due to it using Protect on your Fly.

Typholosion (42-43): Does not sweep due to Muk. Fire Punch is an OHKO on Ariados, Forretress, and Venomoth with no Charcoal. Crobat is a 2HKO with Magnet Thunder Punch.

Miltank (41): PB Return 2HKOs Top (You should prob DCurl on Top's Dig Turn), OHKOs Lee and 2HKOs Chan. 3-4HKOs Champ but one Cross Chop OHKOs you. You do nothing to Onix unless you invested EQ into Miltank.

Pidgeot (40-41): Return (Non PB) is a 2HKO on Top. It will Protect on Fly turns. Fly with Sharp Beak is an OHKO on Lee and Chan. 2HKO on Champ. Be wary of Rock Slide, seems to be a range. You do nothing to Onix.

Golem (40-41): EQ is an OHKO on Top due to Dig doubling EQ's Power. EQ is a 2HKO on Lee and Chan. 3HKO on Champ. 2HKO on Onix. You don't get past Lee often which is his second mon.

Typh (43-44): You cannot Sweep at all. Charcoal Fire Punch is a 2HKO on Top, Chan, and Lee while a 3-6KO on Machamp (Due to Potion but I never saw it as I can't break past Champ before it kills me). Champ 2HKOs you with Cross Chop. Onix is not threatened by you at all.

Typhlosion (44): You 4HKO Umbreon with Charcoal Fire Punch. You take Sand Attacks. You whiff moves. Gengar is a 2HKO with Dig but it is advised you do Fire Punch as it will be KO's from using Curse as well. (If you Dig, she does not use Curse right away). FIre Punch OHKOs Vileplume and Thunder Punch OHKOs Murkrow. Dig is a 3HKO on Doom, but if you invest EQ it is a 2HKO. Regardless, you do not sweep due to Curse Damage, Sand Attacks, and Doom chucking HP.

Miltank (42): PRZCureberry is used due to Plume. Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon (PB does NOT decrease this range), a 2HKO on Doom, Plume, and Murkrow. Gengar is OHKO's by EQ, though you do not outspeed Gengar so the sweep is very unlikely due to Curse.

Pidgept (42): PB Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon. 2HKO on Doom and Murkrow. Fly is a OHKO on Gengar due to Curse and a 2HKO on Plume. You don't sweep but take out 4/5 mons before Doom kills you.

Golem: (42): EQ is a 3HKO on Umbreon. You do nothing to Vileplume as it OHKOs you. Murkrow is a 2HKO on Rollout but Doom kills you due to damage. Gengar is OHKO'd by EQ.

Typh: (44): TPunch with Magnet is a range on Gyarados but most often not it is an OHKO. Zard is a 2HKO as is Aero but Aero 2HKOs with Rock Slide and you don't outspeed. You do very little to the Nites.

Miltank (43): Sweeps Lance albeit not a guarantee. Curlout 2HKOs Gyarados while Rollout 3,4,5 take out Nite 1, 2, and Aero respectively. Aero does outspeed causing the sweep to fail but if it misses, you win. Zard is 2HKO'd while Nite 3 is OHKOed. While not a clear sweep, the potential goes far. Even if you don't sweep, you take out 4 of his 6 mons.

Golem (42): Takes out Aero and Zard with Rollout and that is it. Nite (Blizzard) OHKOs you.

Pidgeot (42): PB Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Zard. You lose to Nite (Thunder) and Nite (Blizzard). You do nothing to Nites and Aero.

So, let's get the big one out of the way here. Cyndaquil. I counted all noms that had logs. If they did not have a log, they were not accounted for. Due to Cynda being one of the most controversial Pokemon, I had to take into account logs only. Any logs that had any suspect claims were also discounted (there were none. This was the in depth analysis) As a result, talllies were made and it is at a Tie. 2 As, 4 Bs. and 4 Cs. Cynda is moving to C Tier. As for the reasonings, those have been plenty explained enough as is. TM Hog, underwhelming performances (Even the MUs people said were good were in fact, not.), and just an abysmal time just waiting for it to do little.

While yes, the performance shown in the League resembles a B Tier, I am not testing an individual part of the mon but the entirety of its life. Unfortunately, as it has been shown as many others, the midgame is atrocious and that weighs fairly heavy enough for it to carry over. Even as you get it by Clair, she craps on it, leaving the League to really dictate where it will go. If Typh maybe at least swept on League Member, I would not mind it being in B, but that didn't happen after many tests.

Fire Blast was not used due to cost and its unreliability. The end game throws way too much Hax at you to be unreliable. Sunny Day was not used either simply because you can get Paralyzed/Confused or just never hit (Koga/Karen). EQ was not used as it would replace Dig which was shown to not really improve much anyways (Houndoom on Karen would still kill you as it outspeeds and Curse would finish you off.) It was better off to be given to Golem anyways since it would have relied on Magnitude.

Smokscreen and Berries for Whitney are not required, that's just extra effort to make a bad mon look good. Yes, it can sweep. Doesn't mean the mon is good after that as I showed (having to wait 2 major MUs outweighs Whitney)

Cyndaquil is now blacklisted from discussion and will remain in C Tier. Any further talks on Quil will be ignored by me. I'm over this thing derailing threads and causing them to close.

Pidgey will be put in C Tier.

Miltank was tested 2 ways. Friend Ball and Non. The preferred way it Non. You lose Morty if you do FB which is not advised as that is a VERY good MU for Miltank to have under it's belt. PB Strength was just good enough to get by in most scenarios anyway. But later on, PB Return just picks up kills like crazy. Miltank is heading A/B Tier with a lean on A.

Golem is a huge letdown and will reside in C Tier. It effectively does very little post Whitney and is just killed by almost everything.
Have you already tried spearow as a replacement for pidgey? For me Fearow was better in the late game compared to Pidgeot.
 
Have you already tried spearow as a replacement for pidgey? For me Fearow was better in the late game compared to Pidgeot.
I didn't test Fearow. When you test, you don't replace a mon for a better option. You test the mon until the end of the test. Only in extreme circumstances may a Mon be dropped but not replaced. Besides, Spearow is objectively better than Pidgey. It's not even a competition between the two.
 
I didn't test Fearow. When you test, you don't replace a mon for a better option. You test the mon until the end of the test. Only in extreme circumstances may a Mon be dropped but not replaced. Besides, Spearow is objectively better than Pidgey. It's not even a competition between the two.
You mean when you test that's not how you do it. That's not exactly how I do it either. I don't know what you mean about contest. I never said anything about that. There are many ways to test. I level every possible pokemon that can be caught in the early stages and test them with save states or if possible redoing every gym leader if they have re-challenge enabled.
 
You mean when you test that's not how you do it. That's not exactly how I do it either. I don't know what you mean about contest. I never said anything about that. There are many ways to test. I level every possible pokemon that can be caught in the early stages and test them with save states or if possible redoing every gym leader if they have re-challenge enabled.
I have no idea what you are trying to argue then. In Game Tier List threads work in a way your testing is not feasible. The OP has a number of mons allowed for testing that is optimal and efficient and has guidelines on who is tested.

I’m pretty sure I said what I meant. We don’t replace a mon because a superior option exists. We test the Mon we picked to completion, from when we get it to the very end of the test.

When you use the word “compared” it becomes a type of contest of sorts. Pidgeot is very much inferior to Fearow in every sense.
 
I have no idea what you are trying to argue then. In Game Tier List threads work in a way your testing is not feasible. The OP has a number of mons allowed for testing that is optimal and efficient and has guidelines on who is tested.

I’m pretty sure I said what I meant. We don’t replace a mon because a superior option exists. We test the Mon we picked to completion, from when we get it to the very end of the test.

When you use the word “compared” it becomes a type of contest of sorts. Pidgeot is very much inferior to Fearow in every sense.
I wasn't trying to argue. I think you are taking offense to my comments when there wasn't any offense meant to be made. I shared an observation and I expected a response that wasn't at all like what you gave.

I thought either "yes I experienced the same or no I had a different experience." In that case I would have wanted to know what moveset and conditions you chose that made Pidgeot Superior. Tier lists are made to place which mons are better than others. The only way to do that with any certainty is to try many different configurations which involves changing mons around, correct?

The way I test still does each mon to completion, however the way they perform at different stages of the game are important to the overall performance rating IMO.

For instance a Mon could perform exceptionally to the completion of the game, yet be inferior overall once they reach level 80 or above which is post game.

Another is that they perform mediocre until very late game and post end game. That still deserves consideration for overall tier. If it is an in game tier list then post game strength values a bit less than the strength during the bulk of the game.

Mons are placed based on their ability in all situations and configurations overall in its ability to complete the game. If you don't try them all then how can anybody be sure?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
I wasn't trying to argue. I think you are taking offense to my comments when there wasn't any offense meant to be made. I shared an observation and I expected a response that wasn't at all like what you gave.
I think that might be because it's not exactly clear what point you are trying to make. If you support or do not support Pidgey to C, it might be better to explain clearly why you agree/do not agree with the decision

I thought either "yes I experienced the same or no I had a different experience." In that case I would have wanted to know what moveset and conditions you chose that made Pidgeot Superior
I am not sure if this is a mistake or something, but I am fairly sure he says Pidgeot is inferior to Fearow, not the opposite.

The way I test still does each mon to completion, however the way they perform at different stages of the game are important to the overall performance rating IMO.
Yes, this is how stuff is generally tiered. If a Pokemon is good only in specific parts of the game, it obviously will drop slightly in ranking, though this depends on circumstances as well (for example, Gastly (Gengar) is a bit of a pain to use early on, but its overwhelmingly good performance after evolving into Gengar offsets this, for most parts; obviously, it still counts against it, just not that much due to the results you get later on)

For instance a Mon could perform exceptionally to the completion of the game, yet be inferior overall once they reach level 80 or above which is post game.
I hope I am misunderstanding, but how it performs in the post-game (or how good it is at level 80, which idk what that would mean anyways) is of no relevance for the purposes of this list; the goal of the list is to say how good a particular Pokemon for completing the main game--that is, the moment you get your starter up until you defeat Lance for the first time. Whether it's good at level 80 (which is entirely unrealistic for the purposes of an efficient run) or no does not influence its ranking and neither does its performance in the post-game (or, in this scenario, Kanto).

Mons are placed based on their ability in all situations and configurations overall in its ability to complete the game. If you don't try them all then how can anybody be sure?
If you think Pidgey (or any particular Pokemon) wasn't used "correctly", you might wanna be specific as to how it'd have been better used. It is important to keep in mind that some "configurations" are just outright inefficient and therefore probably wouldn't be considered (e.g. RNGing a perfect IVs Pokemon and overleveling it by 20 levels)
 

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