Oh God, not another Wobbuffet discussion!

Why not just use a CB Scyther and U-turn to Dugtrio. that does a good amount of damage, traps Wobbafett who kills with CBand Eq.
 
Why not just use a CB Scyther and U-turn to Dugtrio. that does a good amount of damage, traps Wobbafett who kills with CBand Eq.

You can't switch to Scyther since you're trapped, and I highly doubt that the Wobbuffet user is careless enough to switch it into Scyther anyway.
 
Only had one or two battles against wobbuffet and it didn't do much in those battles. But I have seen the infamous wobb encore -> sub/spore/belly drum smeargle -> lucario. Very deadly and I haven't figured out a way to counter this set up unless I pack two phazers.
 
Only had one or two battles against wobbuffet and it didn't do much in those battles. But I have seen the infamous wobb encore -> sub/spore/belly drum smeargle -> lucario. Very deadly and I haven't figured out a way to counter this set up unless I pack two phazers.
A PHazer that can ResTalk effectively might work. I use Hariyama for such a purpose. Still, I can see how that'd be a problem...
 
Just use a fast Encorer of your own such as Jumpluff or Infernape and use the combination Protect/Encore. Protect when you're up against Smeargle (only use if you don't have something asleep already), Encore the move it uses, then it can't Baton Pass.

That or just use Breloom w/Mach Punch.
 
Only had one or two battles against wobbuffet and it didn't do much in those battles. But I have seen the infamous wobb encore -> sub/spore/belly drum smeargle -> lucario. Very deadly and I haven't figured out a way to counter this set up unless I pack two phazers.

Me too.Wobby was the lead.Losed 2 matchs.I tried to pwn with Bastiodon(Block/curse/substitute/Iron Head)but i forgot Wobby was faster...Encored my Block until i died from Struggle...yeah,dumb like that:toast:
Yes,Wobby is a problem.But i think this way:more poke,more fun,more new pokes to counter.Even f i lose the match because of Wobby,i think it's cool to have him allowed in OU.
So,Wobby for OU,that's my opinion.
 
Just use a fast Encorer of your own such as Jumpluff or Infernape and use the combination Protect/Encore. Protect when you're up against Smeargle (only use if you don't have something asleep already), Encore the move it uses, then it can't Baton Pass.

That or just use Breloom w/Mach Punch.

Too freaking specific, what kind of good players ever use a damn Breloom with Mach Punch, it has better things to do. Same goes for Jumpluff and Infernape.
 
Too freaking specific, what kind of good players ever use a damn Breloom with Mach Punch, it has better things to do. Same goes for Jumpluff and Infernape.

Umm a whole lot of people use Breloom with Mach Punch, especially if it's part of its Swords Dancing set, or even the Starter set. Plus, Encore's not even that bad on Infernape or Jumpluff. People could also just put it on Togekiss too. The guy wanted a solution and I gave him one, who if it's specific, there was no rule saying it wasn't allowed to be. If the combo's really that much of a problem (for me it's definitely not), then people will use Mach Punch Breloom or fast Encorers more. Seriously, c'mon, Infernape and Breloom are like two of the most used pokemon in the game, just use them if it gives you so much of a problem.

You can also just use a phazer like CardsOfTheHeart suggested, before the pass gets off, or even as the pass gets off. Just let something else absorb sleep beforehand.
 
Wobbuffet is stupid. One free turn of setup in OU is way overpowered, seriously...

SD Lucario is going to make even more people cry. Shoddy made another mistake like deoxys-e D:
 
Block + Yawn Snorlax gives one free turn of set-up, but guess how many people I've seen use that in any generation (other than me)?
 
I love the idea of giving Wobbuffet another chance, due to the huge change in the metagame, BUT, I think it's still broken. The choice items makes him harder to use, and you can't just switch to him at will. But, that shadow tag ability, encore opponent's move, then either get a free switch or counter/mirror coat the 2nd use of the move that is encored, and you instantly have a great advantage!
 
Wobbuffet appears that the only thing it has going for it is Encore. If we banned Encore on it, it'd be much more balanced. It'd be like Dugtrio with a different pay-off (that traps anything)
 
Wobbuffet appears that the only thing it has going for it is Encore. If we banned Encore on it, it'd be much more balanced. It'd be like Dugtrio with a different pay-off (that traps anything)

There were people getting upset over splitting hairs when non-Soul Dew Lati@s was proposed to be unbanned. W/o Encore, would Wobby be used at all? Guessing games with MC/Counter would be nice and all but everything that can setup on it will do so w/o a second thought.
 
Dragontamer, seriously, calm down. There was a lot of discussion on the matter on the server, and my post described the results of me testing it. We would have done another tournament had the last one not had such horrible attendance and been written off by everyone who didn't want Deoxys-e in standard anyway. This was really the only way anything was ever going to get done in reversing the very questionable ban on Wobbuffet.

I am glad to hear that at least you did personal testing to make up your opinion on the subject, and that there was at least a discussion elsewhere on the subject.

Nonetheless, I hold my position. While it is good to hear someone did testing to form an opinion on this, a single person conducting battles by himself does not constitute a test. Ultimately, the ladder should never be a realm for testing unless it is a test in its final phase (like Deoxys-Speed).

Does Wobbuffet deserve to be tested? I don't know and I don't really care at this point. My concern is again: the ladder has been turned into a testing grounds for potential Ubers and is thus no longer suitable for a serious competition. This is a blatant disregard to the community. Is there even an official position on Deoxys-S yet? Or is the ladder officially conducting a test on two potential Uber pokemon at the same time? And if so, the metagame shift for Deoxys-S has not settled down yet. It is still too early to start a test like this while the metagame is still volatile. This is not the time to be impatient.

I understand where you're coming from AA. I personally believe that Double Team should not be banned (start another topic about it or PM me, I'm not going to discuss Double Team here). However, I would never request that the clause be removed straight up from the ladder without a test phase from some other area. And as much as I believe everyone else is wrong for keeping evasion clause on... the ladder is not the appropriate place to test for that.
 
I still do not understand why people want to unban DT. Have actually had douchebags do it to you? DTing all the way up to 6 with ninjask and Umbreon while Taunting your so call counters to DT and get away with it by passing to a Salamence/Marowak/Whatever? And seeing people using DT in another match? As far as I see, DT was unchanged into D/P.

but I do agree with Dragoncharmer for one thing, the ladder became a testing ground for ubers, not serious competition.

The uber list is good as it is anyways, until people decided to think: May be we should test this uber and see if it's OU, lol. What's next? Ho-oh?
 
Wobbuffet appears that the only thing it has going for it is Encore. If we banned Encore on it, it'd be much more balanced. It'd be like Dugtrio with a different pay-off (that traps anything)

So you want to specifically ban encore only on Wob? So basically he becomes about 70% more useless? Yeah, why the fuck even bother bringing him to OU if you're going to make him practically useless.

And good god, if we start messing around with DT... thats the day I quit Pokemon. I get so pissed with the random bull shit this game does, DT takes that to a whole new level. I've come within inches of snapping my DS into pieces during the Battle Tower.

And from my experience:
Wobbufett makes stupid bad teams possible of 6-0ing people. I would know, I've been doing it constantly. I've had to explain to like 7 people today that Wobbufett is being tested and is no longer banned. I've also had the same number of people quit mid game with comments such as :"Fuck you and your fucking uber!".

Yeah, everyone seems to love Wobby.
 
And good god, if we start messing around with DT... thats the day I quit Pokemon. I get so pissed with the random bull shit this game does, DT takes that to a whole new level. I've come within inches of snapping my DS into pieces during the Battle Tower.

Which is why, aside from this topic, I've learned not to mention the subject. Please stop bringing it up, it was not my intention to start a debate on this.

Too much testing is going on for me to seriously recommend DT, even if I do wish for it to be unbanned. Deoxys-S test, thats fine, its good to rattle things up once in a while and there was a real test done before the ladder was affected. But doing Wobbuffet so soon and without a test? Things need to settle, real data needs to be collected. Again, AA, if you really did test it personally, thats a good initiative, but a real test would be needed before hundreds of players are forced to live with this decision.
 
Really though, if it's not done on the ladder, then there's not going to be good enough results about the testing.

I wasn't in the DX-S tourney, but it seemed like a nightmare for the people hosting it, seriously. I heard that there were people not getting their matches done and that it took a god-awful long time to complete. I'm surprised it didn't just die in the middle of it. You can't seriously expect these people to do another tourney for another uber to test it after that, can you? It really didn't seem like the DX-S tourney solved anything at all, because there was like 13 people who posted in the discussion topic, and very few of them actually faced DX-S enough.

A tournament has serious flaws, seriously. I have a feeling that DX-S was put on the ladder for testing and not unbanned right away, not because it seemed like the "next phase", but because the tournament didn't test a damn thing, and was therefore inconclusive.

Why waste time having a tournament that isn't going to help anything except the killing of time, when you can just take the pokemon in question straight to the place where it will see the most competitive use? This way, it won't take 2 months or so to do, like a tourney, but a maximum of a month, just to get some raw data.

Dragontamer, c'mon, for someone who used to be #1 on the ladder, you're certainly not taking this test very well. If you want Wobbuffet to stay uber, then just go and beat everyone with it if it's so good. If you're just implying that Wobbuffet itself makes the game a joke, well then, that's too bad.

What're you going to say about the ladder if it turns out that Wobbuffet is permanently allowed in the end, and no more ubers are being tested in the ladder? Will you still be calling it a testing ground for ubers, or just a joke, or something else to that effect? Be honest, I'm curious.

Clear, Ho-oh probably is next...Just not for testing on the ladder, since Colin said that Wobbuffet is going to be the last uber tested on the ladder.
 
Really though, if it's not done on the ladder, then there's not going to be good enough results about the testing.

I wasn't in the DX-S tourney, but it seemed like a nightmare for the people hosting it, seriously. I heard that there were people not getting their matches done and that it took a god-awful long time to complete. I'm surprised it didn't just die in the middle of it. You can't seriously expect these people to do another tourney for another uber to test it after that, can you? It really didn't seem like the DX-S tourney solved anything at all, because there was like 13 people who posted in the discussion topic, and very few of them actually faced DX-S enough.

A tournament has serious flaws, seriously. I have a feeling that DX-S was put on the ladder for testing and not unbanned right away, not because it seemed like the "next phase", but because the tournament didn't test a damn thing, and was therefore inconclusive.

Why waste time having a tournament that isn't going to help anything except the killing of time, when you can just take the pokemon in question straight to the place where it will see the most competitive use? This way, it won't take 2 months or so to do, like a tourney, but a maximum of a month, just to get some raw data.
Then they should set up another server and test there. As a matter of principle, this test does not belong on the main ladder.

EDIT: In hindsight, I have no right to call out how Colin should run his server. Nonetheless, I feel the above would have been a much smarter course of action.

Dragontamer, c'mon, for someone who used to be #1 on the ladder, you're certainly not taking this test very well. If you want Wobbuffet to stay uber, then just go and beat everyone with it if it's so good. If you're just implying that Wobbuffet itself makes the game a joke, well then, that's too bad.
While I feel Wobbuffet is still uber, that is another subject which will admittedly be solved by this test phase. The primary reason why I'm pissed however is how (and more specifically, where) this test is being conducted more than Wobbuffet itself.

Remember, I play for fun. I'm competitive alright, but my primary purpose here on playing Pokemon is fun. I do not wish to participate in a Wobbuffet "test". At the end of the day, Pokemon is just a Video Game for me. I feel it is a very fun and very rich video game to play, and I thank Colin and Shoddybattle for enabling me to quickly find challenges against people at a similar level as me... but I have no interest in participating in a metagame test at this time.

What're you going to say about the ladder if it turns out that Wobbuffet is permanently allowed in the end, and no more ubers are being tested in the ladder? Will you still be calling it a testing ground for ubers, or just a joke, or something else to that effect? Be honest, I'm curious.
I'd say by then it is too late. The fact of the matter is, a potential Uber is on the Shoddy ladder right now with little to no preliminary tests done on it. I don't need to look into the potential future to see whats wrong with the present.

Mind you, I'm fine with Ubers who were tested before to get on the Ladder (ex: Deoxys-Speed). I simply do not believe the ladder should be an initial point of testing. I'm slightly feeling better now that AA has told me that at least he tested it himself to come up with his own opinion on the subject, but again, one person's test and a few discussions are not enough for a major decision like this.

Clear, Ho-oh probably is next...Just not for testing on the ladder, since Colin said that Wobbuffet is going to be the last uber tested on the ladder.
I'd assume Lati@s actually, considering some of Jumpman's recent posts.
 
And good god, if we start messing around with DT... thats the day I quit Pokemon. I get so pissed with the random bull shit this game does, DT takes that to a whole new level. I've come within inches of snapping my DS into pieces during the Battle Tower.

Ya I've had situations like that too where I've gotten upset about the Battle Tower people using OHKO moves and abusing DT like no tommorow, but overall these rules we set for OUR METAGAME are not present within the actual game itself and thus you and me will continue to suffer.

Plus all the computers within the battle tower want to do is win *no matter what*, even by cheap shots *by my terms* like using DT and a OHKO move one all of there pokes. <- That's a key lesson in gaming. Even a cheap winner is still a WINNER because the purpose of playing a game is to win overall *the pokemon computer seems to get that idea quite well*.

~ Why am I bringing my own random subject to this to begin with? because I can and I will

I found this article one day and I personally thing it's a revelation to me understanding of being a video gamer and not being so whiney about things.
*I included what the person had said before providing the link SO DON'T THINK IT WAS ME WHO WROTE THAT SENTENCE!!... don't want more haters then the amount I already have*

If you think Hax items are cheap read this. http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
 
The Battle Tower is meant to be disadvantaged towards the player because a decent human player will always beat the AI in a neutral situation. Until they make a better AI, that's just the way it's going to be.

Dragontamer said:
I'd assume Lati@s actually, considering some of Jumpman's recent posts.

Does Colin take Smogon's requests/considerations when it comes to this testing stuff? Or were you just referring to Competitor?
 
If you think Hax items are cheap read this. http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

Hax items are not cheap, because over time they fail. Same thing with hax based strategies. Over time, you lose more then you win. It can come in handy once in a while, like I'm sure if you ran Quick Claw + Sheer Cold it would work once and be damn hilarious, but most of the time you're missing.

A very obvious example of this is an actual League that I participate in. We earn points based on the number of Pokemon remaining per match, out of 4 matches. I faced a team that basically was built around Paralysis, Confusion, and Flinch. So much so that the guy would risk Swaggering various Choice Banded pokemon or Swords Dance Pokemon.

Did this work? Yeah, TWICE. Those two rounds sucked balls for me because I basically had no input. Even if I picked the best possible option, I'd just end up KOing myself. But I swept the crap out of the guy in the last two matches and won. Hax items are not cheap, because generally they don't work. I do hate introducing luck into anything that is meant to be competitive though, I think it puts the better players at a natural disadvantage simply because there are situations out of the players control, which is a natural advantage for the guy who doesn't have a clue to begin with.

It really doesn't have much to do with playing to win either, because they're not normally the most effective option. I've read that article numerous times, and forwarded it to plenty of Smash "casual elitists" (idiots that think the only way to play is 4 player FFA with items) and general fighting game scrubs that bitch about lows and throws.

Oh yeah, and Wobbufett is a big fat jerk. I can't count the number of times I've BellyZarded people today because of him. Fo Reals.
 
I know I'm not a highly-recognized Pokemon expert or anything, but I've been using Wobbuffet over the past couple of days and I've seen no indication that it isn't uber.

I slapped together a team (it literally took me five minutes), the core of which is Wobb-Smeargle-Lucario. All I have to do is play conservatively with my three other Pokemon until my opponent reveals their weak link. Usually its something like Forretress, Swampert or Hippowdon. I switch in Wobb the turn they inevitably throw up Stealth Rock/Spikes. I encore that. Switch in Smeargle and Sub on their switch. Since all phazing moves go last (except Yawn, I don't think that goes last does it?), if they bring in their phazer at this point Smeargle Spores it. If they don't bring in a phazer, Smeargle Belly Drums and gets a Salac Boost to boot. If they don't already have a phazer in by the time I get to the Baton Pass turn, there is absolutely nothing they can do to prevent my Lucario sweep. Priority attacks don't work; Lucario is at +1 speed and has Extremespeed, so unless you're putting weak priority moves on your Choice Scarfer, you still go last and you still die. Deoxys-E is the only one with a faster ES and it hits Luke for NVE. You can't bring out your phazer at any point while Smeargle is out, because you'll get slept, and you can't bring it in once Lucario is out because you get swept before you can move.

I mentioned set-up Pokemon like Forry before as easy Pokes to come in and set up on, but I've done it against the likes of Gardevoir and Gengar as well. Yeah, that Shadow Ball really hurt Wobbuffet; Too bad you're stuck using it and it has no effect on Smeargle.

The only way I can really see to getting around this combination is to have a RestTalking phazer. But that means your moveset is Rest/Sleep Talk/Whirlwind or Roar or Yawn, which leaves you with one attacking move, making that Pokemon a dead weight against any team not packing the Wobb-Smeargle combo. Or you could just use Sleep Talk/Whirlwind, but then you've got 3 moves Sleep Talk can pick, only one of which will have the desired effect. And without Rest, you don't know how long sleep will last, potentially wasting awake turns using Sleep Talk. Also, would Encore enforce the use of Sleep Talk, or the move Sleep Talk picked? If it forces continuous Sleep Talks, then your counter to BD Smeargle is actually screwed by Wobbuffet. Which puts you back at square one.

A poor player's main aim with wobbuffet will be to kill things with Encore and Mirror Coat/Counter. A better player however, who realizes that Wobb's talent is ensuring two free turns, will consider Counter/Mirror Coat as only secondary options; Getting off a single Encore (and thus only needing Wobb once, getting rid of the complaint you need a whole team to support him) and setting up an easy sweep. And frankly, there's not much anyone can do.
 
I can't count the number of times I've BellyZarded people today because of him. Fo Reals. [Emphasis mine.]

It turns out that on February 2nd (the only day you played with Wobbuffet), you were the only person who used a team consisting of Charizard, Umbreon, Crobat, Gyarados, Electivire, and Wobbuffet, so I was able to figure out your user name and count the number of times you won with this team. It turns out that out of 38 matches, you won 24, or 63% of your matches. I suppose this is fairly impressive but there are many people who win more matches using different teams.

Given your statements I was expecting at least 90% win rate or something, but I would question if even that would prove much. There are probably people who do have a daily 90% win rate on the ladder and have on their team, say, Garchomp. That does not necessarily mean Garchomp is broken. However, if one of the only ways to win is with Wobbuffet (we could call this centralisation) that would be more suggestive of him being broken. 90% might might suggested this was the case, but certainly not 63%. Hopefully we will be able to see if this is the case in a couple of weeks or whenever we do an analysis of the testing period's battles. We will also definitively see if the number of viable pokemon has contracted, or if the number of viable moves has (it's been possible to do a move analysis for a while, but I never got around to it).
 
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