Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Kabilapok]

ah, thanks for letting me know. do you have any other item suggestions?

I could see boots being decent since you're likely pivoting in and out a lot to get off Future Sights.

Iron Valiant @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Future Sight
- Moonblast
- Close Combat
- Thunderbolt / Psyshock

The exact set I was thinking about when I saw it this morning. It would act as a Boots support and force things out, while also being brought in with teammates U-turns. Last move can be whatever but I see Psyshock being more useful.

That said, I've never tested non-STAB Future Sight so I don't know how well it works in practice and if the damage is high enough. Cool idea though.

Non-STAB Future Sight is just a way of making progress; chip damage and pressure are what makes it good by just using the SpA stat of the mon on the field (still with 120bp).
Also, it's used on Slowbro/Slowking in gen8 and it was very prominent back then(to the point it was deemed to be banned! Good times).

 

[Lycanko_]

yup

 

[Rootb]

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Tera Blast
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

This Kingambit set has been putting in great work for me. The threat of Sucker Punch forces a switch, then Kingambit can set up on & beat its most common checks.

• Tera Type Grass works about as well as flying defensively, and it can still set up on common Pokemon with this tera type (i.e. Great Tusk). It has the bonus of being immune to Spore/Leech Seed, though Substitute makes that fairly irrelevant. Defensively it's a little worse than Flying, but it's cooler (and also helps with Garganacl, which I'll touch on soon).
• Tera Blast is really great with the Grass Tera. I will post some calcs below, but this coverage allows it to beat Pokemon that would otherwise handily deal with Kingambit (most notably Great Tusk, Dondozo, and Garganacl). If you look at the Pokemon in OU, after a Swords Dance and a couple fainted allies, not many Pokemon can deal with the Sucker Punch/Tera Blast Grass combo.
• Substitute synergizes really well with this set. It can sub up on Garg so it doesn't take Salt Cure damage, sub on status moves (e.g. Skeledirge Will-O-Wisp), Great Tusk's Earthquake/Headlong Rush, etc., and Kingambit can get a free Swords Dance. It eases up predictions with Sucker Punch, and it has the opportunity to sub many times due to Leftovers. Overall, Substitute is unexpected but really beneficial.

I'll share a couple of replays with this set sweeping teams. I highly recommend it, and it has been putting in really great work for me.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1800603962
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1801098453-d7qu66n0sjlhevw3yl7p0zegsgizkg3pw

Calcs

For a lot of these calcs, I'm going with a +2 Kingambit with 2 fainted allies since Swords Dance is really easy to get off with a sub and I usually bring King in during the middle/end of the game (at least 1 fainted ally usually).

252 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Kingambit: 70-83 (18.9 - 22.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO on Substitute
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 560-660 (150.9 - 177.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 422-498 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Def Garganacl Body Press vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Kingambit: 82-97 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 37.5% chance to break a Substitute
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 422-500 (104.4 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Kingambit: 75-89 (20.3 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO on Substitute
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I really like this. Grass is a great type right now, and using Tera Blast to give Kingambit access to it is such a smart meta call.

Never thought i'd see the day where Grass was so actively desirable.

 

[awyp]

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

 

[1LDK]

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

A, specs 4 attacks is nuts, especially under rain, scarf, hazards, physical, all not as powerful but still dangerous, its insanely frail, it dies to literally anything, but man if it is not gonna go down in a high note

use grass knot
:gun:

 

[Athyestic]

I just want to note that Future Sight is not boosted by items such as Choice Specs unless you're currently on the field. You're not just gonna sit there clicking Future Sight for 3 turns straight, so the only realistic scenario where the Specs boost applies is if you immediately switch out and switch back in, in which case you're not taking advantage of the "opponent has to tank 2 moves in one turn" aspect of Future Sight which is literally its entire point. For this reason, specs is generally a very bad item for a Future Sight user.

Oh shoot, I didn’t actually know that. Going energy seems redundant, so maybe Expert Belt?

 

[YNM]

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

Even with the Nerf I still think that Gren is the best Protean mon right now, thanks to its amazing coverage and movepool. Specs 4 attacks hits incredibly hard and it's able to threaten pretty much everything that's slower than it. Even Water Absorb Clodsire takes a good amount of damage from Grass Knot, and Dondozo gets obliterated by it. Add to all of this the possibility to run a mixed set with support moves such as Spikes and T-Spikes and you get a very consistent mon that fits easily in most teams, either as a lead with Spikes + Taunt or as a fast offensive threat. Basically Gren keeps doing Gren stuff and it's incredibly good at it. I'd say it sits around A- or A, considering that it still suffers from having a garbage bulk that makes it die to pretty much everything.

Oh, and the Battle Bond set is trash, Protean is 100 times better everytime, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

 

[AM]

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

A+ in rain, A in general.

 

[UnusualBoy]

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

He's still quite good, sure the nerf hit it hard but its specs set is still amazing, has an insane movepool and you know it won't go down because taking something down with him or at least very least leaving it pretty damaged so I'd say it's A or A+.

It's kind of funny because many people said he was going to be bad, that he'd drop to UU or even lower when in fact, I think he's the best protean user or at least tied with the ugly cat.

 

[Mega Breloom]

It's kind of funny because many people said he was going to be bad, that he'd drop to UU or even lower when in fact, I think he's the best protean user or at least tied with the ugly cat

Nobody respects special water attackers anymore, seeing all those teams without a proper water resist pre tera in the ladder makes me miss Keldeo.

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

Very good, specs/LO has a good wall breaking potential while scarf is a great sweeper on rain, just don't use scarf outside rain it is bad.

 

[Return to Zero]

Greninja's great. Grass Knot stuffs Garg and it has the distinction among the Protean trio of being the only one who can run a mixed attacking set.

Also, it enables my favorite thing to do, which is using Spikes to switch to Ground type in front of a Rotom who wants to Volt Switch out.

 

[Return to Zero]

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Grass

Also, huge thanks for this. I tend to have trouble building teams that don't fold to Great Tusk and now my boy Ieyasu flips that entire matchup on its head. I use Iron Head instead of Substitute so I have at least one no-commitment attack though, since Sucker Punch is conditional and Tera Blast can't be used before the big reveal.

 

[SpritePony]

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

Honestly, I'd say it's just as viable as weed cat, if not more so. Gren is quite a big threat that can be difficult to handle, depending upon the team. I've been running one in a dedicated team that I've hardly deviated from, and even some goofy off-brand teams, and it just puts in work.

 

[awyp]

So Greninja has been out for the last 3 weeks, what's everyone's opinion on where it sits in the meta and viability overall in OU?

So my quick opinion is I've been using it a handful of times, I really mess with just the Specs set thus far because 377 speed (Timid nature is pretty solid), allows it to outspeed a majority of the meta that's not Meow and Dragapult (That's it, aside from Booster Energy Iron Valiant). Choice Specs has a valid amount of punch, under rain it becomes crazy strong (Hydro Pump) with the ability to Tera Water. I really like it and I think it's considered a B + / A - type of mon specifically for it's speed tier and that it's a soft check for Gholdengo (which is always sitting 1st or 2nd in terms of usage).

I think the Choice Scarf set is too weak, and I mess with Expert Belt (Mix) / Heavy Duty Boots (Spikes), even Life Orb (Mix) isn't bad.

 

[MrE]

Even with the Nerf I still think that Gren is the best Protean mon right now, thanks to its amazing coverage and movepool. Specs 4 attacks hits incredibly hard and it's able to threaten pretty much everything that's slower than it. Even Water Absorb Clodsire takes a good amount of damage from Grass Knot, and Dondozo gets obliterated by it. Add to all of this the possibility to run a mixed set with support moves such as Spikes and T-Spikes and you get a very consistent mon that fits easily in most teams, either as a lead with Spikes + Taunt or as a fast offensive threat. Basically Gren keeps doing Gren stuff and it's incredibly good at it. I'd say it sits around A- or A, considering that it still suffers from having a garbage bulk that makes it die to pretty much everything.

Oh, and the Battle Bond set is trash, Protean is 100 times better everytime, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

Why would you ever grass knot clodsire?

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 270-320 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 180-213 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[ZannaBianca]

I think scarf is good for FS shenanigans, get in, get one, goodbye, booster energy is a bad item for the one time boost and the rest does not affect, maybe expert belt if your feeling gangster, but I don't know.

Could also go full Scarf Lele and run Modest, which would actually boost the damage

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Lele

uhh

Also, is anyone running dragon Nacl? Is it good?

 

[Athyestic]

uhh

Also, is anyone running dragon Nacl? Is it good?

You never really think of it as a defensive type but its not too bad I guess, though being weak to Dragon really sucks

 

[Eeveeto]

Ghost Garg is probably the best one, at least when it runs Rocks. It has enough bulk to spinblock most Tusk variants and still checks Pult decently.
Dragon I guess could be viable for sets without Rocks. You now totally counter Rotom-W (outside of Trick and the weird NP + Tera Blast Ice I saw once on ladder) and force Greninja to predict and use Ice Beam (if he does, you still get screwed though). You also should be able to check Iron Moth and most Volcaronas, who dont run Bug Buzz often now that Pex forces it to use Psychic. On the other hand, you now don't check Pult at all, same for Garchomp (who already was a threat with other Teras), Roaring Moon (ghost also loses to this) and Baxcalibur (without Tera Fairy you never really checked that). Good thing is Chien Pao has been banned and Dragonite doesn't run Dragon moves often (though he does run Ice Spinner and Ghost is still better vs Extreme Speed).

 

[Rootb]

Why would you ever grass knot clodsire?

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 270-320 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 180-213 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If it winds up being your defensive Tera, Protean Grass Knot is going to outdamage basically anything else you have access to.

 

[Magcargo]

Gholdengo feels like its getting better with every ban. Some could say that it doesn't like Espathra leaving since it had a better MU against it than most other Pokemon, but honestly, that MU was such a coinflip that it probably still benefits from it leaving. At least Greninja is a solid new check against it. Still, I could see it ending up on the radar pretty soon.

I've been having quite a bit of fun w/ Meowscarada since the bans. Normally, I ran CB sets on it since HDB sets felt a bit too weak, but I've been having quite a bit of fun w/ an Overgrow Black Glasses set that another user mentioned. It maintains the flexibility that HDB sets had while not being quite as weak, which is quite nice since its moves have great utility in general and you don't need to risk 50 / 50s when going for moves like Sucker or Spikes like with the Band set. I think what I like about it most is that its a Spiker that can also Knock Off the opponent's Heavy Duty Boots, which makes its Spikes that much more potent. I like pairing it with Garg since Garg really benefits from Spikes + Knock Off support, making the switches it forces with Salt Cure that much more potent.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I plan on posting a Tera type index update soon. There’s one in the initial Tera suspect thread, but I’m updating it later

As an addendum to this, is there a plan to write a simple guide/rationale on picking Tera-types for Pokémon. While I have some high-level understanding of Tera-type choices, Pokémon with a long list of viable Tera-types confuse me as to which case can be used. A guide-like write-up from more experienced players would be really helpful

 

[awyp]

uhh

Also, is anyone running dragon Nacl? Is it good?

I don't think it would be bad because Amoonguss constantly switches into it, and so it could be a good type to have to at least give it a problem that's not Water / Fairy.

 

[Alternator]

As an addendum to this, is there a plan to write a simple guide/rationale on picking Tera-types for Pokémon. While I have some high-level understanding of Tera-type choices, Pokémon with a long list of viable Tera-types confuse me as to which case can be used. A guide-like write-up from more experienced players would be really helpful

Pokemon with a long list of tera-types are, almost (entirely?) without exception, a few dominant types plus a bunch of very niche picks to beat a specific counter.

 

[Finchinator]

As an addendum to this, is there a plan to write a simple guide/rationale on picking Tera-types for Pokémon. While I have some high-level understanding of Tera-type choices, Pokémon with a long list of viable Tera-types confuse me as to which case can be used. A guide-like write-up from more experienced players would be really helpful

I really don’t have the time or resources to do this myself, but if someone wants to, they can be my guest.