Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[TheDuckChris]

Thought I'd repost some thoughts here from the SPL thread regarding Garganacl

It's strange to put this in as a talking point when the most noticeable aspect is how absent it's been. It's kind of crazy the dissonance between how broken people claim this mon to be vs how little it's being used. I don't think it's bad per se but there is something to be said about how building around a pokemon that needs to tera to avoid being Great Tusk weak doesn't really fit on a lot of team structures.
It only had 3 uses this week total, and it currently has a 34% win rate on the season, the 4th lowest of any pokemon with "OU" usage in tourney (about 35 mons total)

 

[Milo]

Even before Chien-Pao was banned, Garganacl was proving as an issue for teams, only really being checked by Gholdengo, Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Breloom, and Kingambit. Whilst this may sound like quite a good range of options to counter Garg, you,
A. Aren't running all of these pokemon on the same team most of the time
B. They all vary because of Tera.
C. Garganacl can literally shrug ALL OF THEM off

Checks... but not really

Gholdengo is one of the better options to deal with it because it can hit regular Garganacl with Make It Rain, and Shadow Ball against Tera Ghost Garg. On top of this, Dengo can run Covert Cloak with NP so it can just setup on Garg, even if its running Earthquake, take a hit and hit back with Make It Rain. Purifying Salt just shuts down Shadow Ball, but even more, tera water just shuts down Gholdengo.
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And then Garg just hits it back with Earthquake for a 2HKO. Even if it's Phys Def Garg, Make It Rain is a 3HKO because of the SpA drop and leftovers recovery.


Trick from Gholdengo can cripple Garganacl, but this is so easily played around, all Garg has to do is switch out, and now Gholdengo has no way of defeating it, and is susceptible to Salt Cure damage because it isn't running Covert Cloak. So the same points from above stand.



Specs Pult can 2HKO Phys Def Garg, but all it has to do is click Recover on the first Draco escape safely. So you can imagine how much easier SpD Garg gets off. Even if its Tera Ghost Garg, Shadow Ball is still a 4HKO so, Pult doesn't do that fantastic of a job.



Short and sweet, Moonblast is a 3HKO on SpD at +1, and Focus Blast is an OHKO at +1. This all varies, is Valiant carrying FBlast? Only if its Specs. Can Moonblast 2HKO Garg? Only if it gets to +2, by this time Salt Cure has hit Valiant and done 2 turns of damage, wearing it down. Mixed CC does very solid damage, but all it has to do is Tera and it beats it.



Tera Ghost wins



Kingambit actually has a decent matchup against Garganacl compared to the others. +2 Iron Head OHKOs Regular, +2 Kowtwo Kleave OHKOs Tera Ghost, and it 2HKOs Tera Water. However, Body Press stops Kingambit, and if it wants to Tera into Flying or Fire Salt Cure is doing some damage. But it is only doing 20-24%, meaning Kingambit does win regardless one-on-one.



One of the most reliable checks to Garg, providing heavy, immediate damage regardless of its Tera. Flower Trick hits base and water, Knock Off hits Ghost. Hard hitting, super-effective, STAB damage. But, frail. Prone to Body Press, prone to Salt Cure damage. And again, suffers the same issues of Garganacl just switching to a partner that checks Meowscarada like Corviknight, Amoonguss or Kingambit.



Curse Dondozo can setup against Base Garganacl and do some solid damage, but again, tera just shuts it down on top of Salt Cure.



Tera Grass, Giga Drain Volcarona can actually beat Garganacl, Salt Cure does do some damage over time, but Garganacl just switches out.

The main point is, nothing really can reliably do immediate, heavy damage to Garganacl, which means that it is easily preserved thanks to its partners. Ting-Lu is a fantastic partner since it can lay Spikes, and check Gholdengo and unboosted Kingambit. Cinderace lures in and uses U-turn on bulky Water-types such as Dondozo and Toxapex, giving Garganacl free entry to pressure them with Salt Cure. Gholdengo and Valiant can deal with Great Tusk and Meowscarada as well, Scarf, Tera Gholdengo can deal with it, and any Iron Valiant with Booster Energy takes out Mewoscarada, one of the actual threats to Garganacl.

Whilst Iron Defence, Body Press is mush less used now, Curse sets and Protect sets are the main two threatening sets of Garg. Curse now improves its matchup against Kingambit with an increased defence and increased Attack of Earthquake and Salt Cure.

People are talking about how broken Volcarona is at the moment, personally I don't see too much of an issue. Yes, its very good right now, but in all fairness it is one of the things that can beat Garganacl right now. If we risk taking Volcarona away, we only improve Garganacl in the long run. Shed Tail also isn't too much of an issue generally, there are a lot of things that can hit Orthworm enough to force it to eat its Sitrus Berry, allowing it only one use of Shed Tail.

So, where does that leave us?
That leaves us with Garganacl, a very good, defensive Pokemon with one of the best abilities and best moves in the game. With its limited counters, longevity with Recover and Curse, and good attacking moves like Earthquake, Salt Cure and Body Press, it is breaking the meta. Suspect should be the next thing on the plate!

 

[Empress Mobile]

I'm wondering what the general policy towards banning moves vs Pokemon will look like. I know banning moves has been historically rare but it looks like with more broken moves with limited distribution we are seeing more support for banning moves over Pokemon. The amount of derision for example that the Houndstone ban was met with (not a majority, but still a substantial amount) surprised me. It was akin to people saying Gorilla Tactics needed to be banned in Gen 7 in place of Darm-G. What I've seen here and there indicates to me that there really only needs to be 2 broken abusers (eg Houndstone and Basculegion when it is released) to consider banning the move over the Pokemon. I fully supported the BP ban which started with gen 7 and then retroactively fell like dominos in previous generations. But the bar for banning a move with that was so incredibly high. It would have taken ages and many individual Pokemon bans to balance BP in SM OU, if it was even possible at all. Now I've seen chatter about Last Respects and Shed Tail, with even some talk here and there about Revival Blessing. Is there any support for simplification of the tiering process and policy by simply banning the users of these moves when these moves have such limited distribution to begin with?

 

[SpritePony]

Even before Chien-Pao was banned, Garganacl was proving as an issue for teams, only really being checked by Gholdengo, Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Breloom, and Kingambit. Whilst this may sound like quite a good range of options to counter Garg, you,
A. Aren't running all of these pokemon on the same team most of the time
B. They all vary because of Tera.
C. Garganacl can literally shrug ALL OF THEM off

Checks... but not really

Gholdengo is one of the better options to deal with it because it can hit regular Garganacl with Make It Rain, and Shadow Ball against Tera Ghost Garg. On top of this, Dengo can run Covert Cloak with NP so it can just setup on Garg, even if its running Earthquake, take a hit and hit back with Make It Rain. Purifying Salt just shuts down Shadow Ball, but even more, tera water just shuts down Gholdengo.
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And then Garg just hits it back with Earthquake for a 2HKO. Even if it's Phys Def Garg, Make It Rain is a 3HKO because of the SpA drop and leftovers recovery.


Trick from Gholdengo can cripple Garganacl, but this is so easily played around, all Garg has to do is switch out, and now Gholdengo has no way of defeating it, and is susceptible to Salt Cure damage because it isn't running Covert Cloak. So the same points from above stand.



Specs Pult can 2HKO Phys Def Garg, but all it has to do is click Recover on the first Draco escape safely. So you can imagine how much easier SpD Garg gets off. Even if its Tera Ghost Garg, Shadow Ball is still a 4HKO so, Pult doesn't do that fantastic of a job.



Short and sweet, Moonblast is a 3HKO on SpD at +1, and Focus Blast is an OHKO at +1. This all varies, is Valiant carrying FBlast? Only if its Specs. Can Moonblast 2HKO Garg? Only if it gets to +2, by this time Salt Cure has hit Valiant and done 2 turns of damage, wearing it down. Mixed CC does very solid damage, but all it has to do is Tera and it beats it.



Tera Ghost wins



Kingambit actually has a decent matchup against Garganacl compared to the others. +2 Iron Head OHKOs Regular, +2 Kowtwo Kleave OHKOs Tera Ghost, and it 2HKOs Tera Water. However, Body Press stops Kingambit, and if it wants to Tera into Flying or Fire Salt Cure is doing some damage. But it is only doing 20-24%, meaning Kingambit does win regardless one-on-one.



One of the most reliable checks to Garg, providing heavy, immediate damage regardless of its Tera. Flower Trick hits base and water, Knock Off hits Ghost. Hard hitting, super-effective, STAB damage. But, frail. Prone to Body Press, prone to Salt Cure damage. And again, suffers the same issues of Garganacl just switching to a partner that checks Meowscarada like Corviknight, Amoonguss or Kingambit.



Curse Dondozo can setup against Base Garganacl and do some solid damage, but again, tera just shuts it down on top of Salt Cure.



Tera Grass, Giga Drain Volcarona can actually beat Garganacl, Salt Cure does do some damage over time, but Garganacl just switches out.

The main point is, nothing really can reliably do immediate, heavy damage to Garganacl, which means that it is easily preserved thanks to its partners. Ting-Lu is a fantastic partner since it can lay Spikes, and check Gholdengo and unboosted Kingambit. Cinderace lures in and uses U-turn on bulky Water-types such as Dondozo and Toxapex, giving Garganacl free entry to pressure them with Salt Cure. Gholdengo and Valiant can deal with Great Tusk and Meowscarada as well, Scarf, Tera Gholdengo can deal with it, and any Iron Valiant with Booster Energy takes out Mewoscarada, one of the actual threats to Garganacl.

Whilst Iron Defence, Body Press is mush less used now, Curse sets and Protect sets are the main two threatening sets of Garg. Curse now improves its matchup against Kingambit with an increased defence and increased Attack of Earthquake and Salt Cure.

People are talking about how broken Volcarona is at the moment, personally I don't see too much of an issue. Yes, its very good right now, but in all fairness it is one of the things that can beat Garganacl right now. If we risk taking Volcarona away, we only improve Garganacl in the long run. Shed Tail also isn't too much of an issue generally, there are a lot of things that can hit Orthworm enough to force it to eat its Sitrus Berry, allowing it only one use of Shed Tail.

So, where does that leave us?
That leaves us with Garganacl, a very good, defensive Pokemon with one of the best abilities and best moves in the game. With its limited counters, longevity with Recover and Curse, and good attacking moves like Earthquake, Salt Cure and Body Press, it is breaking the meta. Suspect should be the next thing on the plate!

Gastrodon and Sub Skeledirge are both good options to check Garg, speaking from experience. Salt Cure is a weak af move, and Gastro shrugs it off through Covert Cloak, and Sub on anything with decent bulk completely blanks Salt Cure's effect.

 

[Milo]

Gastrodon and Sub Skeledirge are both good options to check Garg, speaking from experience. Salt Cure is a weak af move, and Gastro shrugs it off through Covert Cloak, and Sub on anything with decent bulk completely blanks Salt Cure's effect.

Gastro, isn't great. That's about it.

And yes, Salt Cure doesn't break through Sub on Dirge, but Dirge can't do much back and Earthquake certainly does break through. Eventually, it can force it to Slack Off and then it switches to a Check like Pult, Kingambit, Great Tusk... you name it

 

[SpritePony]

Gastro, isn't great. That's about it.

And yes, Salt Cure doesn't break through Sub on Dirge, but Dirge can't do much back and Earthquake certainly does break through. Eventually, it can force it to Slack Off and then it switches to a Check like Pult, Kingambit, Great Tusk... you name it

I disagree that Gastro isn't great. It's criminally underrated right now. I use it in so many teams because it allows me to check a lot of Pokemon between it's decent natural bulk, defensive typing, Storm Drain, and Covert Cloak.
In the case of Dirge, just click Tera vs it. Unless the opponent has Iron Head Dnite or Volcarona, Teraing on Dirge is never a bad idea. Then EQ can never break your Sub without Attack investment.

 

[Milo]

I disagree that Gastro isn't great. It's criminally underrated right now. I use it in so many teams because it allows me to check a lot of Pokemon between it's decent natural bulk, defensive typing, Storm Drain, and Covert Cloak.
In the case of Dirge, just click Tera vs it. Unless the opponent has Iron Head Dnite or Volcarona, Teraing on Dirge is never a bad idea. Then EQ can never break your Sub without Attack investment.

The point is, you're not gonna run Sub Dirge on every team, and you may not be able to Tera on Garg because you've had to for something else. And Tera Dirge just loses against Garg, Valiant and Offensive Great Tusk

 

[SpritePony]

The point is, you're not gonna run Sub Dirge on every team, and you may not be able to Tera on Garg because you've had to for something else. And Tera Dirge just loses against Garg, Valiant and Offensive Great Tusk

Joke's on you, I actually do run Sub Dirge on damn near every team just to check/counter DD Dragonite, QD Volc, etc., etc.
I don't know what Tera you're playing lmfao. Tera Fairy Dirge beats Garg, checks Valiant fairly well, and Tusk scares it out.

 

[Alternator]

Gastro, isn't great. That's about it.

And yes, Salt Cure doesn't break through Sub on Dirge, but Dirge can't do much back and Earthquake certainly does break through. Eventually, it can force it to Slack Off and then it switches to a Check like Pult, Kingambit, Great Tusk... you name it

Dirge starts setting up with Torch Song, which is doing something back.

Also, Garg is hardly the first mon to lack blanket checks. Scouting a set is not some lost art.

 

[awyp]

Yeah, Nacl can't do shit to Sub Dirge that decides to tera, absolutely nothing, you just have to get a clean switchin in so you don't get salt cured so that's the only thing you have going with you since no one is running Cloak Dirge. (Outside of Sub Dirge, Cloak, and Trick) Curse Nacl specifically is a huge problem that needs to at least be suspect tested IMO.

Good point though smacking in amazing counters like Sub Dirge is a little bit to restrictive when it comes to team building.

*cough cough* Tauros Paldea for Pao *cough cough* (PLEASE TELL ME THE LAST TIME ANYONE SAW TAUROS PALDEA SINCE THE BAN)

 

[SpritePony]

Yeah, Nacl can't do shit to Sub Dirge that decides to tera, absolutely nothing, you just have to get a clean switchin in so you don't get salt cured so that's the only thing you have going with you since no one is running Cloak Dirge. (Outside of Sub Dirge, Cloak, and Trick) Curse Nacl specifically is a huge problem that needs to at least be suspect tested IMO.

Good point though smacking in amazing counters like Sub Dirge is a little bit to restrictive when it comes to team building.

*cough cough* Tauros Paldea for Pao *cough cough* (PLEASE TELL ME THE LAST TIME ANYONE SAW TAUROS PALDEA SINCE THE BAN)

I fought a Fire Tauros last night. Was a Scarf set, and was fun to play around with my random ass, terrible Shed Tail team lmao.

Also a lot of the time I have my Dirge in, my opponent goes full monke mode and brings Garg in, or I can VoltTurn/Bait a Recover/Curse/Iron Defense and I get Dirge in for free. It's so satisfying just clicking Tera > Sub > Sit on their face with Torch Song + Earth Power.

Sub 3 Attacks Dirge is one hell of a drug. I love it so much.

 

[fly casanova]

Sub 3 Attacks Dirge is one hell of a drug. I love it so much.

do you find yourself wishing you had slack off? one of the best parts of sub dirge is 1v1ing something, then after your sub breaks, switching out until you have a safe opportunity to heal back up and do it again. adding EP or tera blast is appealing, but since torch song snowballs so well, the coverage doesn’t seem as valuable as recovery. thoughts?

 

[carbonlifeform]

On the topic of Garg: Tera Blast instead of EQ as a changeup on Curse sets is legit. It makes Garg a more MU-specific `mon and less of a general wall, but it also helps it fill those niches more aggressively. Tera Fire still dunks on Garg along with blanking Amoonguss, Breloom, Corv, and most Volc sets. Fairy gains even more utility against Fighting types and Dragons, Grass invalidates all non-Birb rain mons on its own. And then you've still got Salt Cure + Recover to do Garg things if you don't need your specific tech.

I'm still not sure if Garg is ban-worthy. Salt Cure and Purifying Salt are just such distinct tools that it doesn't have ready analogues in terms of how to check it, which can make it feel more overwhelming than maybe it actually is? It is one of those rare defensive `mons that can turn a small opening into a gaping hole if things go its way, and Tera can help nudge the odds in its favor.

But, honestly, I think that the prevalence of hazards are what push it over the edge. Salt cure + hazard chip (especially TSpikes) can make it too hard for a check/counter to establish position. So while Garg currently feels more overwhelming than Gholdengo to lots of folks, and while Gholdengo is one of the best checks available to many Garg sets, I almost think that Gholdengo is the thing enabling Garg?

As for what I've been using to keep Garg in check, I've recently fallen hard for .

I'll let this post from Srn in the Viability Rankings explain more, but Arboliva has been super reliable as the meta has turned more Balance-oriented. It's a great sub user with Grassy Terrain + Lefties + Giga Drain recovery letting it stay healthy. It can run Tera Blast without it being wasted space. It's got surprising bulk, too. Luring in a Washtom after clicking Tera Fire just to eat a Hydro Pump and comfortably heal back nearly all of the damage while KOing it is just beautiful.

My favorite thing about Arboliva, though, is that it's what's gotten me back to the ~1700 range with Iron Hands, which has been harder and harder to justify as Great Tusk's usage keeps rising. I cannot overstate how much Iron Hands loves Grassy Terrain support. Weakening EQ and augmenting its passive healing both help the big galoot out immensely. I've been running Tera Steel AV, and the pairing gives most defensive cores nightmares. They do still need some help keeping Tusk under control, depending on the set, but Wisp support goes a long way and is easy to fit.

Other sets I've been enjoying:
Scarf Garchomp can clean up matches, especially with Tera Ground. The fact that it can run Adamant and still creep +1 Great Tusk/Bax/Gholdengo is a godsend. Also, I haven't tried running Talonflame since early December, and I think it's gotten better. It hates having to choose between U-Turn and Wisp (or Defog), but even with its reliance on Boots, its ability to soft-check Tusk and Gholdengo has only gotten more important (and more reliable) following bans. I may be back to preferring it to Corv, at least for as long as I'm committed to my boy .

A few replays:
AV lets Hands keep the pressure up against Rain. Arboliva's Tera Blast brings pain against Kilowattrel even without Tera-ing:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1807875333

Tera Fire Arb abuses Sun more than the sun team it's up against:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1807880216

Iron Hands steals a kill against Valiant, then an overly aggressive play (and bad roll) against Iron Moth almost costs me the match. Sac-ing Arboliva to get Grassy Terrain up buys Dragapult Time to pull off the win against DD Dragonite:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1807843909-wxdsc3err99w2foad21wptcwn1wo0nwpw

Arboliva and Iron Hands take turns making Hydreigon sad, Scarf Chomp likely saves my bacon against Quaquaval:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1807300772

Iron Hands claims another Valiant, then manages to prevent a Dragonite sweep thanks to Grassy Terrain support. Arboliva makes life miserable for Amoongus even without Tera-ing. Talon Flame manages to whittle its way through the final four `mons to secure the win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1807200096

 

[Magcargo]

Yeah, Nacl can't do shit to Sub Dirge that decides to tera, absolutely nothing, you just have to get a clean switchin in so you don't get salt cured so that's the only thing you have going with you since no one is running Cloak Dirge. (Outside of Sub Dirge, Cloak, and Trick) Curse Nacl specifically is a huge problem that needs to at least be suspect tested IMO.

Good point though smacking in amazing counters like Sub Dirge is a little bit to restrictive when it comes to team building.

*cough cough* Tauros Paldea for Pao *cough cough* (PLEASE TELL ME THE LAST TIME ANYONE SAW TAUROS PALDEA SINCE THE BAN)

Nah, I've seen Cloak Dirge + some other interesting tech like Tera Grass Throat Spray Flame Charge Dirge on webs and random Earth Power Dirge here and there. It has a lot of creative ways of luring Garganacl, which I seem to fall for every time.

 

[Moyashi]

Thought I'd repost some thoughts here from the SPL thread regarding Garganacl

It's strange to put this in as a talking point when the most noticeable aspect is how absent it's been. It's kind of crazy the dissonance between how broken people claim this mon to be vs how little it's being used. I don't think it's bad per se but there is something to be said about how building around a pokemon that needs to tera to avoid being Great Tusk weak doesn't really fit on a lot of team structures.
It only had 3 uses this week total, and it currently has a 34% win rate on the season, the 4th lowest of any pokemon with "OU" usage in tourney (about 35 mons total)

People have gone out of their way to OVER PREPARE for Garganacl due to how much it can control and take over a game. This doesn't detract from its impact, let alone its overall brokenness.

I disagree that Gastro isn't great. It's criminally underrated right now. I use it in so many teams because it allows me to check a lot of Pokemon between it's decent natural bulk, defensive typing, Storm Drain, and Covert Cloak.

Respectfully, it's really not good. Outside checking Greninja (who it fails to check if it runs Grass Knot) and RotomW, it doesn't really check anything well. A lack of toxic makes it very passive while it itself invites in so many threatening pokemon for free (cough Hatterene, Meowscarada, Breloom). You can use it if it works for you, cool, but there's a reason it isn't used generally. And furthermore, cloak Gastro is really bad. It's extremely hazard weak and often forced to recover when switching into any decently strong attack with a spike up, making it super exploitable.

Sub Skele is a not awful adaptation that functions without giving up TOO much, but it still isn't something people are going to run all the time more should they be forced to because there are other moves it could run to deal with other threats.

Nah, I've seen Cloak Dirge + some other interesting tech like Tera Grass Throat Spray Flame Charge Dirge on webs and random Earth Power Dirge here and there. It has a lot of creative ways of luring Garganacl, which I seem to fall for every time.

I can't see the practicality of cloak dirge at all with it gaining a rocks and spikes vulnerability, not to mention doing nothing outside Garg match up. I also really dislike Earth Power Skele as outside beating Iron Moth quickly, it doesn't really do much to justify the slot. Maybe if Heatran was here but it isn't right now.

In general I find it weird that some people insist on defending Covert Cloak as reasonable developing counterplay, as if the item wouldn't just drop off a cliff if Garg was banned. It's not something that's practical game to game without Garganacl around.

 

[Eeveeto]

People have gone out of their way to OVER PREPARE for Garganacl due to how much it can control and take over a game. This doesn't detract from its impact, let alone its overall brokenness.



Respectfully, it's really not good. Outside checking Greninja (who it fails to check if it runs Grass Knot) and RotomW, it doesn't really check anything well.

It counters one big threat that has almost no checks if well played: Floatzel. And I am actually very serious, this is important. If that thing is well played, it almost has no checks outside of defensive Tera. Outside of Mons immune to Water and defensive Tera, this is the list of Mons I found that can take 2 Band Tera Water Wave Crashes in Rain:
1. Dragonite.
2. Gyarados.
3. Dondozo.
4. Water Tauros.
5. Appletun.
6. Abomasnow.
7. Wo Chien.

Thats it, 7 Mons, some of them not very good in OU. Even Alomomola, Slowbro and Pex have some % (100% in the case of Pex) to get the 2HKO. Between Band Floatzel and Specs Greninja, Water immunity is really important in this Meta, checking Rotom-W is another bonus. Of course, Clodsire has it too among with Hazards, but Clodsire has 3 other weaknesses and is usually better of at running Unaware. So, I wouldn,t call Gastrodon bad at all, even when Clodsire tends to be the better Mon, shutting down most Rains is a big niche for this specific Meta.

 

[SpritePony]

do you find yourself wishing you had slack off? one of the best parts of sub dirge is 1v1ing something, then after your sub breaks, switching out until you have a safe opportunity to heal back up and do it again. adding EP or tera blast is appealing, but since torch song snowballs so well, the coverage doesn’t seem as valuable as recovery. thoughts?

The only times I really do is in the Dirge mirror, or if I REALLY need it after cleaning up a Volc/Dnite. Otherwise, Lefties gets the job done most times. My set is Sub, Torch, SBall, EP. EP is the major reason why you can sit on Gargs so well. You bluff them by clicking Torch until you get to a point where you feel confident with your stat ups and then go for the throat. I'm also Max SpAtk so that catches various people off guard.

People have gone out of their way to OVER PREPARE for Garganacl due to how much it can control and take over a game. This doesn't detract from its impact, let alone its overall brokenness.



Respectfully, it's really not good. Outside checking Greninja (who it fails to check if it runs Grass Knot) and RotomW, it doesn't really check anything well. A lack of toxic makes it very passive while it itself invites in so many threatening pokemon for free (cough Hatterene, Meowscarada, Breloom). You can use it if it works for you, cool, but there's a reason it isn't used generally. And furthermore, cloak Gastro is really bad. It's extremely hazard weak and often forced to recover when switching into any decently strong attack with a spike up, making it super exploitable.

Sub Skele is a not awful adaptation that functions without giving up TOO much, but it still isn't something people are going to run all the time more should they be forced to because there are other moves it could run to deal with other threats.



I can't see the practicality of cloak dirge at all with it gaining a rocks and spikes vulnerability, not to mention doing nothing outside Garg match up. I also really dislike Earth Power Skele as outside beating Iron Moth quickly, it doesn't really do much to justify the slot. Maybe if Heatran was here but it isn't right now.

In general I find it weird that some people insist on defending Covert Cloak as reasonable developing counterplay, as if the item wouldn't just drop off a cliff if Garg was banned. It's not something that's practical game to game without Garganacl around.

Cloak Gastro checks a lot more than that, actually. Checks/counters Garganacl, checks Gholdengo, checks other Gastro, checks Greninja, soft checks SpAtk Dragapult, HARD counters Washtom and Heatom, soft checks Kilowattrel, checks Magnezone, soft checks Noivern, soft checks SpAtk Mence...

As for my Sub Dirge, that was a set I made on my own to just go against the grain. I enjoy using silly, creative sets. (I did something similar to this in BDSP using Sub 3 Attacks Lanturn. Was a lot of fun.)

 

[Moyashi]

Cloak Gastro checks a lot more than that, actually. Checks/counters Garganacl, checks Gholdengo, checks other Gastro, checks Greninja, soft checks SpAtk Dragapult, HARD counters Washtom and Heatom, soft checks Kilowattrel, checks Magnezone, soft checks Noivern, soft checks SpAtk Mence...

You are a shaky check to Ghold given trick, and hazard pressure can force Gastro to recover instantly against shadow ball (especially specs). Checking other Gastro is pretty not relevant given Gastro itself isn't relevant. You only check non Grass Knot Greninja, you fail to reliably check Dragapult if hazards are up, Heattom is not at all relevant, Kilo is rain exclusive and very much rare, Magnezone is hardly relevant, Noivern isn't relevant and Salamanca is barely relevant either. So most of what you listed, barring the ghosts and Greninja who beats you with Grass Knot, is either super niche, or not relevant at all.

It counters one big threat that has almost no checks if well played: Floatzel. And I am actually very serious, this is important. If that thing is well played, it almost has no checks outside of defensive Tera. Outside of Mons immune to Water and defensive Tera, this is the list of Mons I found that can take 2 Band Tera Water Wave Crashes in Rain:
1. Dragonite.
2. Gyarados.
3. Dondozo.
4. Water Tauros.
5. Appletun.
6. Abomasnow.
7. Wo Chien.

Thats it, 7 Mons, some of them not very good in OU. Even Alomomola, Slowbro and Pex have some % (100% in the case of Pex) to get the 2HKO. Between Band Floatzel and Specs Greninja, Water immunity is really important in this Meta, checking Rotom-W is another bonus. Of course, Clodsire has it too among with Hazards, but Clodsire has 3 other weaknesses and is usually better of at running Unaware. So, I wouldn,t call Gastrodon bad at all, even when Clodsire tends to be the better Mon, shutting down most Rains is a big niche for this specific Meta.

I agree personally that Floatzel under rain is pretty bullshit and is mostly under used for how dumb it is, but I also attribute that to tera and the rarity of rain makes me feel that justifying Gastro for that really hard. Handling RotomW is great, though I feel you'd get more out of something like Baxcalibur which turns RotomW into offense.

 

[awyp]

Waiting for that elusive survey results, what does the public think?

Is Nacl broken or not?

Is Volc broken or not?

IS SHED TAIL BROKEN OR NOT? (prob not)

find out in the next episode of dragon ball z

 

[DiscoDucky]

Waiting for that elusive survey results, what does the public think?

Is Nacl broken or not?

Is Volc broken or not?

IS SHED TAIL BROKEN OR NOT? (prob not)

find out in the next episode of dragon ball z

Shed Tail definitely doesn't feel broken IMO. It's been restated to death here, but Cyclizar made Shed Tail unbearable due to Regenerator. A lot of discussion on banning Shed Tail is on the philosophical side (e.g. what Smogon defines as broken, uncompetitive, unhealthy, etc.). While it's nice to think about, there are more pressing threats that have a clear threat on metagame stability. Furthermore, using Smogon's philosophy, a move/ability is ban-worthy when all users are broken when using it. As far as I'm aware of, there are significant enough drawbacks inherent to Orthworm that reduces the reliability of it pulling off a successful Shed Tail.

With that said, it's hard to say if we see some dumb Shed Shell Orthworm cheese that becomes really broken three months from now. At the moment, there's already a bunch of dumb interactions happening pre-Home (including a renewed interest in Tera action), so it's best to fix those before even touching Shed Tail.

 

[SpritePony]

Waiting for that elusive survey results, what does the public think?

Is Nacl broken or not?

Is Volc broken or not?

IS SHED TAIL BROKEN OR NOT? (prob not)

find out in the next episode of dragon ball z

Nacl not broken. Annoying, but not broken.
Volc is a little too strong, I feel. There's not much that can properly check it, given the variety of sets it carries.
Shed Tail isn't inherently broken, but it's wholly unhealthy. If I can get simple wins with a garbage team because of Shed Tail plays, then it's probably better off gone.

And by garbage team, I mean this: https://pokepast.es/024078096c3577df

 

[Magcargo]

I can't see the practicality of cloak dirge at all with it gaining a rocks and spikes vulnerability, not to mention doing nothing outside Garg match up. I also really dislike Earth Power Skele as outside beating Iron Moth quickly, it doesn't really do much to justify the slot. Maybe if Heatran was here but it isn't right now.

I wasn't commenting on whether those sets are good or not. All I know is that I've faced them and they've smoked me 100% of the time lol

 

[Return to Zero]

I can't see the practicality of cloak dirge at all with it gaining a rocks and spikes vulnerability, not to mention doing nothing outside Garg match up. I also really dislike Earth Power Skele as outside beating Iron Moth quickly, it doesn't really do much to justify the slot. Maybe if Heatran was here but it isn't right now.

I seriously cannot wait for Heatran's return. This meta sorely needs it. Never thought I'd see a day where I really wanted Heatran around and liked the idea of it so much, but hey.

 

[Eeveeto]

Nacl not broken. Annoying, but not broken.
Volc is a little too strong, I feel. There's not much that can properly check it, given the variety of sets it carries.
Shed Tail isn't inherently broken, but it's wholly unhealthy. If I can get simple wins with a garbage team because of Shed Tail plays, then it's probably better off gone.

And by garbage team, I mean this: https://pokepast.es/024078096c3577df

Honestly, I don't see anything bad in Frosmoth getting some wins because of Shed Tail. That's not a good argument at all to ban something (especially since in OST I swept with Frosmoth a game without Shed Tail, so it's actually an usable Mon).

 

[Soiramio3000]

what are your thoughts on regidrago? do you think that it will become ban-worthy due to terastylization?
(regieleki is definitely getting banned if it gets ice tera blast).