Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Moyashi]

honestly, i don't know why we're even still having this discussion; shed tail's been a problem since day 1.

Only Cyclizar's shed tail was ever a problem on day one, and frankly beyond. Orthworm is far more flawed and balanced as a user of the move and if your team is losing to X mon behind orthworm shed tail, chances are your team lost to it anyways.

orth drops to untiered without shed tail, it's an unmon without it. it's a sign of brokenness on shed tail's part that both of the mons that get it are straight garbage outside of it but are serious problems with it.

We'll just ignore that Cyclizar has a premium of utility and without the move, would find use in UU or RU as it has plenty going for it beyond shed tail, so calling it a garbage mon without shed tail is just wrong. Same for Orthworm, which saw usage without the move sometimes in UU when it was there and it was good. Don't go making claims that simply aren't true.

hell, people could tell it would be a problem since the first trailer we saw it in. what is this move still doing here?

No one could tell anything about its potential impact. It was all pure theory morning. It depended wholely on the mons that had it. And yes, a regenerator fast mon abused it too well. Orthworm does not. And so the move remains because it isn't broken. One abuser was.

 

[DiscoDucky]

orth drops to untiered without shed tail, it's an unmon without it. it's a sign of brokenness on shed tail's part that both of the mons that get it are straight garbage outside of it but are serious problems with it. honestly, i don't know why we're even still having this discussion; shed tail's been a problem since day 1. hell, people could tell it would be a problem since the first trailer we saw it in. what is this move still doing here?

This argument is flawed. You can't say "x move/ability is broken because Orthworm is viable in OU because of it". That's literally the whole point of Pokemon: certain characteristics of each Pokémon dictate their strength relative to other Pokemon. It has the same contrived flavor of "without Drizzle, Pelipper is an un-mon. Therefore, Drizzle is broken". Brokenness and unhealthiness are determined by the amount of healthy counterplay in the metagame.

Baton Pass was unhealthy in most forms because passing boosts allowed for certain Pokémon to completely circumvent their checks & counters through no merit of its own. Swagger + Thunder Wave was broken because you could have your way past counters. Naganadel was broken because NP, typing, and speed tier allow it to dumpster 90%+ of the OU metagame.

What makes Shed Tail different from just a DryPass (Sub, then Baton Pass) is the 50% health drop. This means that most users only have one shot to pass a Sub. Cyclizar overcame yhat cost by having Regenerator. Orthworm not only doesn't have that, but it's also awful to use by itself. With its slow speed, you would either:

1) play very precisely to make sure you set up a scenario where you can ShedPass without taking too much damage
2) run it with Grimm Screens (which is mostly the reason why it's in B-)

Refer to my previous post about why I think Screens + Orth is overrated (TLDR huge opportunity cost of sacrificing an extra breaker/sweeper for Orthworm). Shed Tail isn't as warping as it seems, and Orth only fits in very specific team compositions where the downsides of Orth are mitigated. Even then, there's enough counterplay that can invalidate an Orth from ShedPassing.

EDIT: As an addendum to the Cyclizar vs. Orthworm point, I think Shed Tail's functionality is different between the two. The purpose of Cyclizar's substitute was to get threatening sweepers in safely without taking any damage whatsoever and not to have them sit behind a Sub and stat boost. This action was possible because of Cyclizar's high speed and Regenerator. Orthworm rarely gets those opportunities, and its Sub is not nearly big enough (base 70 HP a.k.a. 86 HP Substitute) to stop neutral and even some NVE moves from breaking it against the frailer recipient.

 

[awyp]

Tiering Survey Results came out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9521379

Some quick numbers:

Nacl -
Qualified: 3.29/5
General: 3.43/5

Volc -
Qualified: 2.97/5
General: 2.44/5

Shed Tail -
Qualified: 3.10/5
General: 3.03/5
_________

Nacl got very similar numbers since the last survey (dropped about .15 - .2), but I think the numbers are indicative enough where it deserves some sort of action (IMO preferably a suspect test)

Volcs results is very interesting I think the general public voting around a 2.4 is pretty low but as I stated in my previous post I think Nacl is a little more concerning than Volc in the current landscape.

Shed Tail is averaging pretty much a 3/5, which is fair I think that number increases when HOME gets released.

 

[Return to Zero]

Tiering Survey Results came out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9521379

Some quick numbers:

Nacl -
Qualified: 3.29/5
General: 3.43/5

Volc -
Qualified: 2.97/5
General: 2.44/5

Shed Tail -
Qualified: 3.10/5
General: 3.03/5
_________

Nacl got very similar numbers since the last survey (dropped about .15 - .2), but I think the numbers are indicative enough where it deserves some sort of action (IMO preferably a suspect test)

Volcs results is very interesting I think the general public voting around a 2.4 is pretty low but as I stated in my previous post I think Nacl is a little more concerning than Volc in the current landscape.

Shed Tail is averaging pretty much a 3/5, which is fair I think that number increases when HOME gets released.

Looks like in general top players and the general crowd are of the same mind, albeit not entirely for Volc. This all about lines up with how I feel too, honestly. I'm surprised Garg had a higher level of recommended action than Shed Tail though.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Tiering Survey Results came out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9521379

Some quick numbers:

Nacl -
Qualified: 3.29/5
General: 3.43/5

Volc -
Qualified: 2.97/5
General: 2.44/5

Shed Tail -
Qualified: 3.10/5
General: 3.03/5
_________

Nacl got very similar numbers since the last survey (dropped about .15 - .2), but I think the numbers are indicative enough where it deserves some sort of action (IMO preferably a suspect test)

Volcs results is very interesting I think the general public voting around a 2.4 is pretty low but as I stated in my previous post I think Nacl is a little more concerning than Volc in the current landscape.

Shed Tail is averaging pretty much a 3/5, which is fair I think that number increases when HOME gets released.

I expected higher numbers across the board but surprisingly everything seems even.

That being said the number of voters saying they enjoy the meta could tie into the low balling voters who don't feel anything is necessary or simply 'wouldn't mind' action. Both qualified and general are very close together in enjoying the game as is.

Garganacl

Majority of the votes being a 4, not too surprising as it does stand out as the king right now. Being a tank (hard to kill) with a good offensive status (offensively strong), and tera to flip its matchup on what it can tank definitely feels like its a jack of all trades. If that wasn't evident enough, the fact covert cloak is a meta trend and not just in the 'shed shell ferrothorn for magnezone' type way but as a general requirement to try and beat it reveals how warping it can be on the meta and a salt-less meta would be completely different. A suspect to see if its different for better or for worse is inevitable.

Volcarona

Shows the least incentive to do tiering action. Majority of the votes picked 3 and below, with 2 being the highest number (30%). I ain't too surprised because volc does have problems that teams have to build around to make it work. Its far from an everymon and the matchup fishing isn't something new to the game. Sending it to ubers implies it enabled something really dumb in OU or was incredibly overwhelming to deal with, and it hasn't reached that point yet at all and the later maybe happens if shed tail stays + garg goes otherwise it's very managable. Volc is far from meta warping and even the slight set adjustments to counter volc aren't nearly as main stream as covert cloak or sometimes even necessary, a volc-less meta would basically look the exact same as a volc meta... just without volc and maybe copium venomoth users.

Shed tail

This I'm kinda surprised by... the votes are pretty even across the board. Its clearly controversial and would need a suspect test to come to any conclusion. Many seem on the fence about it but that's understand because game mechanics are harder to grasp. Either the mechanic is enabling a broken playstyle and turning pokemon stronger, or the pokemon that are already really strong are inflating how good a playstyle or mechanic is. Given that the move can bring up a pokemon like orthworm to OU after the removal of cyclizard, it clearly has enough power to enable some strategies to be worth losing that teamslot. If pokemon were powerful enough to inflate shed tail, I believe they'd be strong regardless and need looked at, but shed tail is enabling some otherwise shit mons to work (orthworm) in the tier and making screens HO more viable than ever before. I'm leaning on testing shed tail with our current sweepers to see how that affects them, and if they're still broken even without access to shed tail then we can see the herd needs thinned regardless and keep it.

Definitely worth a suspect, but garg seems to be on everyone's minds more.

 

[Soiramio3000]

I wanna ask how you guys feel that Kingambit´s place in the metagame is gonna change with HOME, do you guys think that he is gonna become more tera dependent or +2 sucker punch is still gonna be nuts

well let's start by seing which pokemon from home will be able to give it any kind of trouble.
those pokemon are:

• volcanion
• the ursifu bros
• typhlosion (hisui)
• spectrier
• sneasler
• molters
• landorus and landorus therian
• heatran
• maybe enamorus and enamorus therian?
• dugtrio alola
• decidue hisui
• arcanine-hisui
• magearna

the pokemon that I mentioned can only threat it theoretically but some of them probably will not:

• the ursifu bros are probably going to go straight to ubers because swords dance and terablast will be too much for the metagame.
• spectrier was banned in gen 8 and now it is even stronger than it was back then, this thing isn't going to ubers, this thing is going to anything goes.
• magearna got banned in gen 8 and there is a good chance she will get banned again.
• moltres isn't that good, it may see a little usage in OU but it is not going to become a staple.
• typhlosion and typhlosion hisui aren't that good either.
• dugtrio alola isn't good
• there is also a chance ursaluna will get banned but it is not sure.
• enamours has some good coverage to hit it super effectively but I am not sure if she will be a real counter, her typying may give her trouble.
• the regular landorous may get banned again
• hisuian decidui's stats don't seem that good. it is slow and not that bulky. it may manage to perform okay in OU it may fail become a staple.

the pokemon that are left are:

• volcanion
• heatran
• arcanine hisui
• sneasler
• landorus therian

I believe that kingambit will remain as an OU staple, I don't think that it will be become thaat much more depended on terastilization.
kingambit is often used as a late game cleaner meaning that it is possible that his teamates will have taken care of its counters by the time he comes out.

 

[Crowlignt]

Tiering Survey Results came out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9521379

Some quick numbers:

Nacl -
Qualified: 3.29/5
General: 3.43/5

Volc -
Qualified: 2.97/5
General: 2.44/5

Shed Tail -
Qualified: 3.10/5
General: 3.03/5
_________

Nacl got very similar numbers since the last survey (dropped about .15 - .2), but I think the numbers are indicative enough where it deserves some sort of action (IMO preferably a suspect test)

Volcs results is very interesting I think the general public voting around a 2.4 is pretty low but as I stated in my previous post I think Nacl is a little more concerning than Volc in the current landscape.

Shed Tail is averaging pretty much a 3/5, which is fair I think that number increases when HOME gets released.

Garganacl should definitely be suspect tested considering the survey votes. If we compare the graph of votes for Garganacl and the graph of votes for Chien Pao in the survey before he was suspect tested, we can clearly see the similarity between the general opinion of the players regarding Chien Pao and Garganacl.

The only difference being that the "qualified" players (of which I am one considering the criteria of the survey) are less favorable to a ban of Garganacl (their average being 3,29 which remains considerable). I averaged all the votes concerning Garganacl and Chien Pao without distinction "qualified/non-qualified" and these results are obtained:

3.40
3,46

(extracts from the last survey concerning Garganacl)
"but this support still trails well behind suspects and bans from prior points this generation"
Not particularly.
"It is also worth noting that the qualified support of Garganacl declined for the first time"
People have simply adapted but do we want a metagame where not playing the covert cloak or other sets like substitute Skeledirge in a team is very difficult if not impossible?
"but for now we will continue to monitor the situation and work to find the optimal timeline for the metagame"
The optimal time to suspect Garganacl was weeks ago when he started playing Curse+EQ or Block based sets but hey...

 

[Return to Zero]

Honestly, I think the Covert Cloak thing is kinda overblown. Come the Home update when Volcanion is waving around Scald 2: Return of Jafar, Heatran brings Magma Storm, Sneasler brings Dire Claw, that sort of thing, Covert Cloak is going to have a lot more use cases. The only thing is that right now Salt Cure is the only move strong enough to justify use that item for. All the SV metagames right now are on a shrinking time limit that's getting further down by the day, so maybe for that particular concern we can wait a bit before deciding that having to run Covert Cloak is a sign something's too strong?

Not that I don't think Garg is crazy strong. I did give it a three on the survey. This just isn't an issue I have with it.

 

[Moyashi]

Honestly, I think the Covert Cloak thing is kinda overblown. Come the Home update when Volcanion is waving around Scald 2: Return of Jafar, Heatran brings Magma Storm, Sneasler brings Dire Claw, that sort of thing, Covert Cloak is going to have a lot more use cases.

You'd be better off running typical Heatran could counterplay, the same you'd run last gen or gens prior. You didn't need cloak then and don't need it now. Similarly, with Volcanion being the only scald abuser now, you'd sooner find a dedicated check to absorb its hits rather than run a specific item like cloak.

All the SV metagames right now are on a shrinking time limit that's getting further down by the day, so maybe for that particular concern we can wait a bit before deciding that having to run Covert Cloak is a sign something's too strong?

Can we stop saying this? We shouldn't wait to act if something is potentially problematic just because there MIGHT be home to shake up the game and change things. We should judge things as they are in the now.

 

[Return to Zero]

Can we stop saying this? We shouldn't wait to act if something is potentially problematic just because there MIGHT be home to shake up the game and change things. We should judge things as they are in the now.

I only mean to say that "things as they are now" isn't going to last long. That big Pokemon Channel announcement is coming in just 40 hours and all, and that'll likely have news on when the Home update is. There's a not-insignificant chance that if Garg is suspected literally right now and gets banned after two weeks and a vote, that post-Garg-pre-Home meta lasts all of a couple weeks and it just comes right back. So, the point being, let's see what's on the horizon before setting the precedent now that Covert Cloak is a response to intrinsically broken stuff.

 

[Crowlignt]

Honestly, I think the Covert Cloak thing is kinda overblown. Come the Home update when Volcanion is waving around Scald 2: Return of Jafar, Heatran brings Magma Storm, Sneasler brings Dire Claw, that sort of thing, Covert Cloak is going to have a lot more use cases. The only thing is that right now Salt Cure is the only move strong enough to justify use that item for. All the SV metagames right now are on a shrinking time limit that's getting further down by the day, so maybe for that particular concern we can wait a bit before deciding that having to run Covert Cloak is a sign something's too strong?

Not that I don't think Garg is crazy strong. I did give it a three on the survey. This just isn't an issue I have with it.

I think any pokemon would prefer to have another item than the covert cloak, for example Gholdengo would rather have the leftovers or the balloon than the covert cloak. The only other notable interest Ghold has in holding this item, aside from Salt Cure, is to prevent Sp.Atk from dropping when hit by Hatterene's Mystical Fire and I don't think that's a good enough reason. So in the current metagame there is no justification for using the covert cloak outside of Salt Cure.
In a post-home metagame I don't think it will change much either, Heatran's Magma Storm is unaffected by covert cloak (like all trapping moves), Volcanion is currently in NatDex RU and I don't don't think it will be OU and it certainly won't be ubiquitous enough to justify the use of the covert cloak, Sneasler's Dire Claw is the only reason that could justify the use of the covert cloak outside of Salt Cure but Sneasler really looks like a huge threat and it wouldn't surprise me if he got banned.
And the fact that the current metagame is doomed to die soon is no reason to do nothing about problematic pokemon. What needs to be done now needs to be done now, even though it should have been done a long time ago... Better late than never.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Outside of Great Tusk how do you deal with Kingambit?

Dondozo
Low Kick Kingambit
Quaquaval
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua

 

[`ShadowTwo]

Pareil, je ne comprends pas comment on ne peut pas faire un test suspect sur un Pokémon clairement centralisateur qui restreint le Team building en nous obligeant à jouer un objet qu'on n'aurait jamais essayé sans Garg, ou Sub sets sur Skeledirge. Même si cela devient gérable dans ces cas là, c'est clairement malsain pour le metagame.
Interdire ce Pokémon nous permettra d'utiliser autre chose que Covert Cloak sur Gholdengo, et de ne pas avoir à mettre Sub sur Skeledirge

 

[1LDK]

Honestly, I can wait 1 more day for HOME announcement and then start suspecting Garganacl right after

Like I said before, Garganacl is a defensive mon that has no business being a wallbreaker, a stall breaker, a momentum killer and a wall at the same time, at least toxapex is finally passive this gen. It forces awkward passive-aggressive interactions for the player that is trying to beat Garganacl, where unless you have covert cloak, or you're a grass/ground/fighting type, then you have to lose all of your momentum and risk a lot just to try and take it down, while Garg can just spam salt cure + recover forever brainlessly and get more done and faster

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Pareil, je ne comprends pas comment on ne peut pas faire un test suspect sur un Pokémon clairement centralisateur qui restreint le Team building en nous obligeant à jouer un objet qu'on n'aurait jamais essayé sans Garg, ou Sub sets sur Skeledirge. Même si cela devient gérable dans ces cas là, c'est clairement malsain pour le metagame.
Interdire ce Pokémon nous permettra d'utiliser autre chose que Covert Cloak sur Gholdengo, et de ne pas avoir à mettre Sub sur Skeledirge

Translation:
Same, I don't understand how we can't do a suspicious test on a clearly centralizing Pokémon that restricts Team building by forcing us to play an object that we would never have tried without Garg, or Sub sets on Skeledirge. Even if it becomes manageable in these cases, it is clearly unhealthy for the metagame.
Banning this Pokémon will allow us to use something other than Covert Cloak on Gholdengo, and not have to put Sub on Skeledirge

 

[`ShadowTwo]

Uh wait, why is my message in French? I had put it in English before posting it.

EDIT : Oh I see, I originally posted my message in English, then I wanted to correct a mistake in my message, and this idiot Google Trad auto-translated it while I was writing, without my asking...

 

[Talpr0ne]

Honestly, I think the Covert Cloak thing is kinda overblown. Come the Home update when Volcanion is waving around Scald 2: Return of Jafar, Heatran brings Magma Storm, Sneasler brings Dire Claw, that sort of thing, Covert Cloak is going to have a lot more use cases. The only thing is that right now Salt Cure is the only move strong enough to justify use that item for. All the SV metagames right now are on a shrinking time limit that's getting further down by the day, so maybe for that particular concern we can wait a bit before deciding that having to run Covert Cloak is a sign something's too strong?

Not that I don't think Garg is crazy strong. I did give it a three on the survey. This just isn't an issue I have with it.

If what I'm reading on Bulbapedia is correct then trapping from Magma Storm (and similar moves such as Whirlpool and Infestation) isn't considered as a secondary effect and as such isn't negated by Covert Cloak.
If Cloak really was a anti-Heatran and anti-Garganacl item at once then it would be a great item to use but that does not seem to be the case unfortunately.

 

[SciWiz373]

(Hi, first time poster, long time lurker (since like early gen6). I have no idea if this is a viable lure, but I thought this was treading the line of "Theorymoning" enough to post)

 

[SpritePony]

View attachment 495014

View attachment 495015
(Hi, first time poster, long time lurker (since like early gen6). I have no idea if this is a viable lure, but I thought this was treading the line of "Theorymoning" enough to post)

This makes me happy. As someone who runs Max SpAtk Dirge with Earth Power, Heatran will absolutely get dookied on. If it's Air Balloon, we have a Shadow Ball for that. Tran and Dirge check one another.

 

[DiscoDucky]

View attachment 495014

View attachment 495015
(Hi, first time poster, long time lurker (since like early gen6). I have no idea if this is a viable lure, but I thought this was treading the line of "Theorymoning" enough to post)

I don't know how the metagame will evolve post-Home, but there feels like a likelihood that Dirge could just run its Bulky Attacker set with Shadow Ball + Earth Power over WoW + Hex. So, not so much lure as it is probably boiler-plate for Dirges moving forward.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Can someone exactly explain to me how Salt Cure is considered broken but Leech Seed which we have for 25 years to deal with was never considered overpowered?

 

[1LDK]

Leech seed is a fixed % that affects all but grass, is not an attacking move, and it can be bounced and removed with rapid spin
Salt Cure is an attacking move, discriminates between 2 of the best types in the game in water and steel, also hitting flying, fire and ice for SE damage, you cannot bounce it back, and cannot be removed with rapid spin

 

[Rootb]

Can someone exactly explain to me how Salt Cure is considered broken but Leech Seed which we have for 25 years to deal with was never considered overpowered?

A big part of it is that Salt Cure actually functions as a counter to the sort of mons that should, in theory, be good against a fairly passive Rock type that's heavily priced into Rock + Ground coverage. From Gamefreak's perspective, Salt Cure's bonus damage is just a fun little bonus, but as it turns out?

25% a turn is a lot more than 12.5%. Especially against steel types, where one of the other close comparisons to switching into Salt Cure (Toxic Spikes) already has no effect! If Garg didn't specifically counter some of its stronger counters, people would grumble, but ultimately? It'd just be Infestation with more BP instead of a trapping effect.

I personally don't think Garg is too powerful for OU, but it's increasingly hard to ignore that it is incredibly frustrating to play against. And when you're strong, that matters almost as much as raw power.

 

[SciWiz373]

Can someone exactly explain to me how Salt Cure is considered broken but Leech Seed which we have for 25 years to deal with was never considered overpowered?

From my understanding the dislike for Salt Cure is more because it's on Garganacl rather than what the move does, since Garganacl is greater than the sum of it's parts. If Salt Cure was on say, Golem, it wouldn't be as good as it is on Garganacl. Or say that Garganacl didn't get it's ability of Purifying Salt. The combination of Garganacl's stats, ability, and Salt Cure is what makes it (and to an extent Salt Cure) an issue in the eyes of some. Since you can't out-stall it via Toxic, due to it being immune to Status Conditions.

However I do want to say that I think the comparison between Salt Lure and Leech Seed is a little, je ne sais qoi. The fact that Salt Cure does damage when clicking it (and Rock is a good offensive type) and also does increased damage against Waters and Steels (two great defensive types) and has nothing immune to it, it's just, better in many regards (though not all).

Though FWIW I might be wildly incorrect, and if I am I will delete this post.

 

[kosecant]

From my understanding the dislike for Salt Cure is more because it's on Garganacl rather than what the move does, since Garganacl is greater than the sum of it's parts. If Salt Cure was on say, Golem, it wouldn't be as good as it is on Garganacl. Or say that Garganacl didn't get it's ability of Purifying Salt. The combination of Garganacl's stats, ability, and Salt Cure is what makes it (and to an extent Salt Cure) an issue in the eyes of some. Since you can't out-stall it via Toxic, due to it being immune to Status Conditions.

However I do want to say that I think the comparison between Salt Lure and Leech Seed is a little, je ne sais qoi. The fact that Salt Cure does damage when clicking it (and Rock is a good offensive type) and also does increased damage against Waters and Steels (two great defensive types) and has nothing immune to it, it's just, better in many regards (though not all).

Though FWIW I might be wildly incorrect, and if I am I will delete this post.

From my perspective the thing that makes this move so crazy is the combination of its effect and its perfect accuracy. Salt cure is conceptually similar to magma storm, but in practice it’s a much more threatening move because it always hits.