Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Crimson Chris]

Man, imagine a timeline where they gave Hydro Steam a burn chance.

 

[kosecant]

Man, imagine a timeline where they gave Hydro Steam a burn chance.

Imagine if they gave steam eruption the same effect under sun

 

[viivian]

List of Checks/Counters to Walking Wake

With the introduction of Walking Wake and Iron Leaves, the meta has already started to adapt quite a lot--and mostly to the former.

Walking Wake is somewhat similar to Iron Bundle in function: same Sp. Atk., slower but still very fast, great offensive STABs to spam Water & Dragon moves, pretty respectable bulk for such an offensive threat, and also a niche in being a Water-type sun abuser. Under the sun, Walking Wake's STAB moves are 120 BP and 130 BP, respectively, and with its great special attack stat paired with a damage-boosting item and even a boost from Protosynthesis, it becomes a fantastic breaker.

Time will tell if it is broken or not, but for now, here are a bunch of defensive and offensive checks! Let me know your thoughts or if you have any other suggestions for me to add to the list. I will also link a PokePaste to some sets I came up with at the bottom of the post.

DEFENSIVE:

Counters
Water Absorb Clod with Tera Fairy will win the 1v1 against Walking Wake while providing great utility. I made a post about it just above this if you want to read more.
Slowking has the combination of Regenerator and Slack Off that makes it very hard to break, the only problem is it cannot do much back to Wake. Otherwise, it is a very solid pivot that should reliably counter Walking Wake.
Blissey is in the same situation as Slowking, but it provides different utility. Also, it can win the 1v1 against Walking Wake much more easily than Slowking.
Sp. Def. Toxapex serves a similar role to Slowking as a Regenerator pivot. It can also spread Toxic, posing a threat to Wake.

Checks
These Water-types are all decent checks with 2 being immune to Water moves, but a good prediction will cause trouble. Azumarill resists all 3 moves, but it has no reliable recovery; not to mention, sun-boosted Specs Hydro Steam 2HKOs normal Azu sets. Gastrodon is a worse Clod imo since it cannot tank as well on the special side and misses out on Toxic. Vaporeon cannot damage Wake and has to rely on Wish spam & stalling out Draco Meteors. They all are viable picks though, and they offer utility outside of the Wake matchup.
These Fairy-types are immune to Walking Wake's Draco Meteor and can pressure back with Fairy moves while possessing solid enough Sp. Def. to deal with a Water move as well as reliable recovery. Scream Tail outspeeds Wake, both Scream Tail and Sylveon can pass Wishes, both Sylveon and Florges can set up with Calm Mind, and Florges can take advantage of sun spam with the boost in healing from Synthesis.
These Steel-types resist Draco Meteor, have good enough bulk to potentially tank Water moves, tank a Flamethrower, and will be useful outside of Wake matchups. Gholdengo has Recover, and Kingambit can Sucker Punch to deal solid damage.
These Grass-types are quite specially bulky and can kind of check Wake. Both Wo-Chien and Toedscruel can Leech Seed, they both tank Flamethrower easily, and both provide Knock Off support. Toed can also Rapid Spin, set up Spikes, and Spore if need be. Yes, I'm a big Toed enthusiast.
On the off-chance that Wake lost its Choice Specs or is running another item, Cryogonal can actually beat Wake while not being deadweight on the team. Freeze-Dry just barely OHKOs offensive Wake with 8 EVs in Sp. Atk.; it provides Rapid Spin and Haze support; it has reliable recovery; it is a Ground immunity. Very niche but very cool.
Chansey is Blissey but worse. It serves as a check rather than a counter because hazard stacking and/or getting Eviolite Knock'd Off removes its ability to wall reliably. Still an option I guess, so I'll toss it in here.

OFFENSIVE:
Dragapult can use either Draco Meteor or Dragon Darts.
Roaring Moon can use Scale Shot, Outrage, or CB Dragon Claw. It will outspeed any Wake variant in the sun with the typical CB set.
Iron Valiant can use Moonblast or CB Spirit Break.
Walking Wake beats Walking Wake. Wonderful.
Dragonite can Tera Normal, tank a hit, Dragon Dance up, and outspeed. It can also just Extreme Speed to pick up the kill.
Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Garchomp can use Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Dragon Claw (Wake must be chipped).
Choice Scarf Hydreigon can use Draco Meteor.
Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Glimmora can use Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam (OHKOs Offensive Wake 37.5% of the time).
Maushold just outspeeds Wake, and it can either go for Population Bomb or use Tidy Up on the switch.

Defensive Checks to Walking Wake

https://pokepast.es/d55b1274ec070465

Offensive Checks to Walking Wake (not full sets)

https://pokepast.es/3cc5c70646855ea2

while i do agree with a lot of the pokemon you listed as checks, some of these aren't nearly as reliable as others. for instance, all of walking wake's defensive answers need tera to be effective at answering it, such as clodsire and gastrodon, and some aren't even consistently viable pokemon. wo-chien, for instance, is not very common in OU, and isn't very consistent outside of answering walking wake. and the other defensive answers listed are easily blown past by specs sets under sun, even blissey. i also think kingambit is more of an offensive answer with sucker punch FWIW

some of the offensive checks you brought up aren't very good and sometimes are solely dependent on what item/EV spread each pokemon is running. if wake runs a spread that gives it a speed boost then glimmora and maushold are both completely unreliable as checks (and maushold is, like wo-chien, already very uncommon in OU to begin with). this is all, of course, remedied if they burn tera, which isn't always a consistent or viable option since it's very likely you're going to want to use tera on another pokemon, not always on these ones. garchomp, hydreigon and dragonite require setup or tera to answer wake offensively, and dragonite in particular requires a dragon move like dragon claw or outrage to actually kill walking wake, both of which are uncommon on its setup sets anyhow. this unfortunately means it can't run other options like fire punch or ice spinner if it wants to beat wake. these three are all decent answers with the right tera prediction but it's definitely quite volatile

aside from that, i agree with the offensive answers you listed, it's just glimmora and maushold that seem out of place. in terms of defensive, i don't believe walking wake actually has any, especially not under sun/rain. the closest answer it has would be clodsire and even that can be overwhelmed if it doesn't tera. it's overall pretty crazy against defensive teams but mostly kept in line by offensive ones

 

[SpritePony]

List of Checks/Counters to Walking Wake

With the introduction of Walking Wake and Iron Leaves, the meta has already started to adapt quite a lot--and mostly to the former.

Walking Wake is somewhat similar to Iron Bundle in function: same Sp. Atk., slower but still very fast, great offensive STABs to spam Water & Dragon moves, pretty respectable bulk for such an offensive threat, and also a niche in being a Water-type sun abuser. Under the sun, Walking Wake's STAB moves are 120 BP and 130 BP, respectively, and with its great special attack stat paired with a damage-boosting item and even a boost from Protosynthesis, it becomes a fantastic breaker.

Time will tell if it is broken or not, but for now, here are a bunch of defensive and offensive checks! Let me know your thoughts or if you have any other suggestions for me to add to the list. I will also link a PokePaste to some sets I came up with at the bottom of the post.

DEFENSIVE:

Counters
Water Absorb Clod with Tera Fairy will win the 1v1 against Walking Wake while providing great utility. I made a post about it just above this if you want to read more.
Slowking has the combination of Regenerator and Slack Off that makes it very hard to break, the only problem is it cannot do much back to Wake. Otherwise, it is a very solid pivot that should reliably counter Walking Wake.
Blissey is in the same situation as Slowking, but it provides different utility. Also, it can win the 1v1 against Walking Wake much more easily than Slowking.
Sp. Def. Toxapex serves a similar role to Slowking as a Regenerator pivot. It can also spread Toxic, posing a threat to Wake.

Checks
These Water-types are all decent checks with 2 being immune to Water moves, but a good prediction will cause trouble. Azumarill resists all 3 moves, but it has no reliable recovery; not to mention, sun-boosted Specs Hydro Steam 2HKOs normal Azu sets. Gastrodon is a worse Clod imo since it cannot tank as well on the special side and misses out on Toxic. Vaporeon cannot damage Wake and has to rely on Wish spam & stalling out Draco Meteors. They all are viable picks though, and they offer utility outside of the Wake matchup.
These Fairy-types are immune to Walking Wake's Draco Meteor and can pressure back with Fairy moves while possessing solid enough Sp. Def. to deal with a Water move as well as reliable recovery. Scream Tail outspeeds Wake, both Scream Tail and Sylveon can pass Wishes, both Sylveon and Florges can set up with Calm Mind, and Florges can take advantage of sun spam with the boost in healing from Synthesis.
These Steel-types resist Draco Meteor, have good enough bulk to potentially tank Water moves, tank a Flamethrower, and will be useful outside of Wake matchups. Gholdengo has Recover, and Kingambit can Sucker Punch to deal solid damage.
These Grass-types are quite specially bulky and can kind of check Wake. Both Wo-Chien and Toedscruel can Leech Seed, they both tank Flamethrower easily, and both provide Knock Off support. Toed can also Rapid Spin, set up Spikes, and Spore if need be. Yes, I'm a big Toed enthusiast.
On the off-chance that Wake lost its Choice Specs or is running another item, Cryogonal can actually beat Wake while not being deadweight on the team. Freeze-Dry just barely OHKOs offensive Wake with 8 EVs in Sp. Atk.; it provides Rapid Spin and Haze support; it has reliable recovery; it is a Ground immunity. Very niche but very cool.
Chansey is Blissey but worse. It serves as a check rather than a counter because hazard stacking and/or getting Eviolite Knock'd Off removes its ability to wall reliably. Still an option I guess, so I'll toss it in here.

OFFENSIVE:
Dragapult can use either Draco Meteor or Dragon Darts.
Roaring Moon can use Scale Shot, Outrage, or CB Dragon Claw. It will outspeed any Wake variant in the sun with the typical CB set.
Iron Valiant can use Moonblast or CB Spirit Break.
Walking Wake beats Walking Wake. Wonderful.
Dragonite can Tera Normal, tank a hit, Dragon Dance up, and outspeed. It can also just Extreme Speed to pick up the kill.
Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Garchomp can use Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Dragon Claw (Wake must be chipped).
Choice Scarf Hydreigon can use Draco Meteor.
Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Glimmora can use Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam (OHKOs Offensive Wake 37.5% of the time).
Maushold just outspeeds Wake, and it can either go for Population Bomb or use Tidy Up on the switch.

Defensive Checks to Walking Wake

https://pokepast.es/d55b1274ec070465

Offensive Checks to Walking Wake (not full sets)

https://pokepast.es/3cc5c70646855ea2

Roaring Moon does not outrun Walking Wake in Sun with CB lmfao. Unless you're sacrificing your Attack for Speed Boost Proto, Moon only hits 370 on Max Speed Jolly, whereas Wake hits well over 500. DD, Scarf and nerfed CB does outrun it, though.

 

[carbonlifeform]

these scenarios don't always the translate the way you want it to in actual game Moyashi. azumarill is a fine answer. azumarill is used on mostly offensive archetypes, being a 1-time check is enough. if it's +SpA booster to kill your azumarill, it's most likely not doing the dash on your team to begin with when it's slower than your valiant even post-booster lol. and walking wake, even with +speed protosynthesis, can be out-maneuvered by many offensive archetypes. it's not some unbeatable threat that people are making it out to be: booster valiant, dragapult (6-0's like every sun lol), focus sash users, hydreigon, the aforementioned dragonite, booster iron moth, your own walking wake, roaring moon, quaquaval, baxcalibur, etc. yes i understand that some of these die to hydro steam and draco meteor respectively but it's locking into one or the other and offense can capitalize on this.

one can say a life orb set stops this from being counter-play but i've played many life orb walking wakes with offense and those residuals tend to stack very quickly. i actually find life orb to be a near unusable item in modern gens. health management is too valuable, even on HO nowadays. here's a replay (2k+) demonstrating this. i also have some other high ladder replays of Storm Zone naturally dealing with sun-walking wake with offense:

replay 1 - storm zone didn't go out of his way to check walking wake at all. dragonite, booster valiant, and kingambit are all good 'mons that deal with it. it's not like chien-pao where it has dual priority and 135 base speed to invalidate your entire offense team.

replay 2 - sun is a flawed archetype. dragonite just 6-0'd, nothing the opponent could do even with "broken walking wake."

replay 3 - walking wake doesn't even come out. this pokemon doesn't have as many entry points compared to something like garganacl which comes in net 50 times and spams broken salt cure like a pussy. speaking of garganacl, it 6-0s all suns. there's nothing they can do especially if it's tera-water.

sun is a very volatile archetype. that's my problem. it's S-rank caliber in sun, don't get it twisted, but when you have to use sun for this thing to be "broken" (and even then i don't think it is) then that in itself says a lot. without sun support it's an A, maybe A+ rank threat but walking wake for sure is not broken on weather-less teams. it needs sun for one to say it's broken and sun as an archetype loses hard to so many common threats (very fishy as we have seen in SPL). walking wake simply makes sun more consistent. i don't find that to be a bad thing.

even your own walking wake is amazing counter-play vs opposing sun teams. a lot of weather-less teams love to use the combo of walking wake and great tusk. if your opponent decides to go with the "i want a broken walking wake" approach it will apply both ways. bringing sun to big tour games was already a risk. now it's even more volatile due to the threat of playing what would've been a balanced version of walking wake otherwise.

now you might be saying what about more defensive archetypes? do we have to use slowking and water absorb clodsire on every team now? i mean these are not bad 'mons at all. and no, you don't. even something like fairy garganacl + toxapex can suffice.

also i don't get why you're so harsh on hippowdon and tyranitar. they are not that bad and if you refuse to consider them in the team-building process then idk what to say. i play with fat balance myself and i am very open to this metagame adapting and the shift walking wake has caused. hippowdon and tyranitar are not even close to as bad as something like tauros lol

hippowdon can use stealth rock, phase with whirlwind which annoys offense like crazy (especially shed tail scrubs), and sand is amazing for residuals, breaking sashes, multiscale etc. hippowdon can even pp stall a lot of garganacl's salt cures which is critical in longer games
tyranitar is also a fine 'mon. outside of setting up rocks and sand, it can also pressure great tusk on the switch with ice beam and spread paralysis. the typing is also decent since it can check non-band dragapult, certain volcarona sets, skeledirge, and iron moth.

once again i'd like to clarify that sun is terrible when you load into either of these pokemon. when shit like roaring moon, walking wake, and slither wing are not getting the protosynthesis boost + are getting chipped by sand, they are much more manageable for teammates to deal with and stuff like brute bonnet becomes utter garbage without sun support.

here are some high ladder replays of me adapting to the metagame and using some of the new shit i talked about:

replay 1 - hippowdon as a 'mon is perfectly fine. sand chip is annoying. this was vs a non-sun walking wake team but it's not like my team was garbage when i loaded into a standard baxc balance. the combination of sand, tera-fairy gholdengo, and toxapex not only deals with sun-walking wake builds but it was also very good in this game too

replay 2 - if you are going to tell me this pokemon is broken outside of sun, you're lying to yourself. garganacl is 10x more egregious than this thing will ever be. my team is not ratchet in any way. it's well-constructed and i'd be usin' this build even if walking wake were to be banned.

replay 3 - water absorb clodsire was a great set even before walking wake was released. walking wake can't do shit to water absorb clodsire and has to bank on burning flamethrowers or crit'ing a draco meteor (null if you tera-fairy, which isn't mandatory btw you can run stuff like tera-fairy garg, iron valiant, and hatterene in my case!). this replay really demonstrates how volatile sun as an archetype is. sun gets pressured really badly by the omnipresent dragapult and standard 52% usage great tusk

i personally have had much more trouble dealing with stuff like tera-kingambit, garganacl, and cb baxcalibur with balance than walking wake. walking wake doesn't cause you to go to extremes to beat it unlike chien-pao (which as i said there were a lot of good players who thought that was fine too). this has been the most fresh this metagame has been in a fat minute. i fuck w/ it
View attachment 495726

Haven't played at all since Wake dropped, so not disagreeing with you, but I do want to point out some flaws in your logic around the replays you offered:

The first one is the most egregious. Your opponent is 1829 ELO (which obviously isn't bad!), but you call out your own 2k+ ELO as though that makes the replay more credible from the perspective of the Wake user. You also ignore the fact that your own Wake abuses Sun to KO half of the opposing team. Obviously, this is one of the problems with Sun in SV: Protosynthesis `mons are everywhere even without Sun, and by running the archetype, you risk making your opponent's team stronger without them needing to invest in it, but that's almost a point against Wake: even if you're not running Sun, you can stack it on your team to vastly improve that MU with virtually no cost.

Also, you're running some seriously anti-meta tech with Sash H-Zoroark and multiple eject buttons. Clearly, they worked as intended, but you can't sit here and seriously claim that Eject Button Tusk and Gholdengo should be standard sets, and that type of stuff makes it easy to cherry pick results where it paid off. I've had some brutal wins running manual e-terrain. That doesn't mean the archetype is good.

The other replays are mostly outmatched 1700's players (like me!) still learning how to use Wake (including at least one just blindly using a sample team). Like, the last replay you shared had somebody burn Tera on turn 2 and lock into Hydro Steam when Clodsire was right there on the opposing team. Obviously, we need more time playing with and against this thing.

Seriously, appreciate your thoughts. Glad to see folks not just succumbing to panic, and I think you raise some good points. With the existing power creep, it sure seems like Walking Wake is going to be pushed to run either (1) A Choice Item in Weather, making it fishy and easy-ish to disrupt through protect scouting and good team structures (2) Booster Energy, leaving it prone to revenging or otherwise getting forced out and losing its boost or (3) LO, which, as you say is hella risky in our hazards environment. I think we've all got Chi-Yu flashbacks, but the thing that (maybe) keeps Walking Wake comparatively in check is that its 130 BP nuke doesn't *also* get the weather boost (and has more abundant immunities, which are obviously a completely different animal than resists, which can be brute-forced through). Let's just be honest about the information we can glean from replays less than 24 hours in.

A couple other tangents:

i just don't see why iron leaves in particular is the bane of gallade's existence when some pokemon already in the game give gallade much more competition, to say nothing of the two sharpness wallbreakers in kleavor and hisuian samurott arriving soon via HOME that could give gallade some actual competition

NGL, I've got that user blocked, but I'm assuming the logic is that Gallade gets "STAB" Leaf Blade via Sharpness?

Roaring Moon does not outrun Walking Wake in Sun with CB lmfao. Unless you're sacrificing your Attack for Speed Boost Proto, Moon only hits 370 on Max Speed Jolly, whereas Wake hits well over 500. DD, Scarf and nerfed CB does outrun it, though.

*Especially* on Band sets, running 220 Atk to get the speed boost isn't much of a sacrifice.

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

Block Garganacl could serve as a way to deal with choiced Wake.


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Salt Cure
- Recover
- Protect
- Block

Tera Water lets it comfortably take Hydro Steam and Flamethrower regardless of the weather but leaves it vulnerable to Draco Meteor so Fairy is also a good option.

This should be about what Hydro Steam does, but I could be wrong so please someone double check me:

Tera Water Calcs

Sun
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Suicune Hydro "Steam" vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl in Sun: 143-168 (35.3 - 41.5%) -- 82.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Suicune Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl in Sun: 108-127 (26.7 - 31.4%) -- 23.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Suicune Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 312-367 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
---
Rain
252 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl in Rain: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tera Fairy Calcs

Sun
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Suicune Hydro "Steam" vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl in Sun: 286-337 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Suicune Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl in Sun: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
---
Rain
252 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl in Rain: 303-357 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[SpritePony]

Haven't played at all since Wake dropped, so not disagreeing with you, but I do want to point out some flaws in your logic around the replays you offered:

The first one is the most egregious. Your opponent is 1829 ELO (which obviously isn't bad!), but you call out your own 2k+ ELO as though that makes the replay more credible from the perspective of the Wake user. You also ignore the fact that your own Wake abuses Sun to KO half of the opposing team. Obviously, this is one of the problems with Sun in SV: Protosynthesis `mons are everywhere even without Sun, and by running the archetype, you risk making your opponent's team stronger without them needing to invest in it, but that's almost a point against Wake: even if you're not running Sun, you can stack it on your team to vastly improve that MU with virtually no cost.

Also, you're running some seriously anti-meta tech with Sash H-Zoroark and multiple eject buttons. Clearly, they worked as intended, but you can't sit here and seriously claim that Eject Button Tusk and Gholdengo should be standard sets, and that type of stuff makes it easy to cherry pick results where it paid off. I've had some brutal wins running manual e-terrain. That doesn't mean the archetype is good.

The other replays are mostly outmatched 1700's players (like me!) still learning how to use Wake (including at least one just blindly using a sample team). Like, the last replay you shared had somebody burn Tera on turn 2 and lock into Hydro Steam when Clodsire was right there on the opposing team. Obviously, we need more time playing with and against this thing.

Seriously, appreciate your thoughts. Glad to see folks not just succumbing to panic, and I think you raise some good points. With the existing power creep, it sure seems like Walking Wake is going to be pushed to run either (1) A Choice Item in Weather, making it fishy and easy-ish to disrupt through protect scouting and good team structures (2) Booster Energy, leaving it prone to revenging or otherwise getting forced out and losing its boost or (3) LO, which, as you say is hella risky in our hazards environment. I think we've all got Chi-Yu flashbacks, but the thing that (maybe) keeps Walking Wake comparatively in check is that its 130 BP nuke doesn't *also* get the weather boost (and has more abundant immunities, which are obviously a completely different animal than resists, which can be brute-forced through). Let's just be honest about the information we can glean from replays less than 24 hours in.

A couple other tangents:


NGL, I've got that user blocked, but I'm assuming the logic is that Gallade gets "STAB" Leaf Blade via Sharpness?


*Especially* on Band sets, running 220 Atk to get the speed boost isn't much of a sacrifice.

I have literally never had a Roaring Moon -- that wasn't Scarf or DD -- outrun my Walking Wake in the Sun. They've always been standard Max Atk Band with Proto Atk. Then they just sort of drop to Draco.

 

[1LDK]

Okay so here is the plan, on Sunday we quickban Walking Wake and quickban Garganacl and now everyone is either happy or unhappy, but since is now "everybody" then it's all okay

 

[Eeveeto]

Okay so here is the plan, on Sunday we quickban Walking Wake and quickban Garganacl and now everyone is either happy or unhappy, but since is now "everybody" then it's all okay

Let's just Ban every single legendary Mon. Everyone will be unhappy except me, but I am the one that matters

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I have literally never had a Roaring Moon -- that wasn't Scarf or DD -- outrun my Walking Wake in the Sun. They've always been standard Max Atk Band with Proto Atk. Then they just sort of drop to Draco.

Your experience is more of an anecdote though. The question is whether Moon with 220 EV in Attack viable over Max Attack to check Wake offensively. If it is, Then it should be seriously considered as Moon can easily outspeed and OHKO Wake, whereas Wake can't beat Moon without using Draco

 

[Stellar Flares]

Honestly, I think y'all are overlooking Walking Wakes by only considering the obvious Special Sets.

...Introducing.. :

Walking Wake @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Waterfall
- Outrage

Thanks to its 112 EVs Speed, Walking Wakes outspeed Dragapult after one Dragon Dance (+1).

This set can abuse of both Toxapex and Clodsire, as well as Slowking :

It prevents him from being poisoned by Toxic using Substitute, set a Free Dragon Dance, and threaten them by using Outrage.

I didn't really think about the best Tera to use neither best moves / Item to use yet, but this has unexplored potential so far.

 

[viivian]

NGL, I've got that user blocked, but I'm assuming the logic is that Gallade gets "STAB" Leaf Blade via Sharpness?

pretty much their exact argument, as far as i can tell. i don't know if they responded yet since i blocked them after responding upon realizing they were likely trolling, but that was what they last said to me

 

[SpritePony]

Honestly, I think y'all are overlooking Walking Wakes by only considering the obvious Special Sets.

...Introducing.. :

View attachment 495750
Walking Wake @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Waterfall
- Outrage

Thanks to its 112 EVs Speed, Walking Wakes outspeed Dragapult after one Dragon Dance (+1).

This set can abuse of both Toxapex and Clodsire, as well as Slowking :

It prevents him from being poisoned by Toxic using Substitute, set a Free Dragon Dance, and threaten them by using Outrage.

I didn't really think about the best Tera to use neither best moves / Item to use yet, but this has unexplored potential so far.

The only problem with this set is that Tera Fairy Dirge sits on you all day. Donbozo also sits on you pretty damn hard.

 

[MrE]

Honestly, I think y'all are overlooking Walking Wakes by only considering the obvious Special Sets.

...Introducing.. :

View attachment 495750
Walking Wake @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Waterfall
- Outrage

Thanks to its 112 EVs Speed, Walking Wakes outspeed Dragapult after one Dragon Dance (+1).

This set can abuse of both Toxapex and Clodsire, as well as Slowking :

It prevents him from being poisoned by Toxic using Substitute, set a Free Dragon Dance, and threaten them by using Outrage.

I didn't really think about the best Tera to use neither best moves / Item to use yet, but this has unexplored potential so far.

People are running scarf meow and pult which both wreck this set.

 

[Lectrys]

Walking Wake looks threatening as hell and I look forward to seeing the carnage it can and will wreak, but let's take a closer look at Iron Leaves!


The first things you notice about Iron Leaves's stat spread are its nice 130 base Attack, its chunky special bulk, and its actually solid base 104 Speed. In fact, that special bulk starts to remind me of Hoopa-U: it's actually enough to tank a powerful super-effective special attack once! This is good because it shares that biting 4x weakness to U-turn and lower physical bulk with Hoopa-U. If you're using Iron Leaves instead of Meowscarada, it's because of that bulk (along with easier access to Swords Dance).

Iron Leaves @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Night Slash
- Psyblade

Scarf Iron Leaves outspeeds Scarf Garchomp and can leverage its bulk to revenge things despite its nasty weakness profile:


Vs. Scarf Gholdengo
252 Atk Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 160-190 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 252-296 (78.2 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Vs. Great Tusk
252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 234-276 (63 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 238-280 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Vs. Iron Treads
252 Atk Iron Leaves Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 226-266 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 127-150 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 262-310 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 318-376 (98.7 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO


Vs. Specs Greninja
252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 408-482 (143.1 - 169.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Iron Leaves Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 362-428 (127 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Vs. Booster Energy Iron Valiant
252 Atk Iron Leaves Psyblade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 288-338 (99.6 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 156-184 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 138-163 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO


Vs. Rotom-W
252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Wash: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk burned Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Vs. Specs Dragapult
(OK, this one's not so good)
252 Atk Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 194-230 (61.1 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Dark Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 290-344 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 306-362 (95 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 236-280 (73.2 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 249-294 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This leaves Swords Dance, Taunt, Substitute, and friends for wallbreaker sets.

Iron Leaves @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt / Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat / Wild Charge / Psyblade
- Night Slash


If you can actually catch Skeledirge trying to Will-O-Wisp Iron Leaves, a Taunt set can break through Skeledirge, its mightiest Unaware wall and normally one of its best checks:

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 200-237 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 176-210 (54.6 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Gholdengo is immune to Taunt, forcing Iron Leaves to use Swords Dance instead to try to break it. Unfortunately, Iron Leaves has trouble cracking fully defensive Gholdengo without Terastallizing. Meta shifts may make Gholdengo not want to go full Bold max. Defense, though:

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gholdengo: 190-224 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 148-177 (39.1 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gholdengo: 374-442 (98.9 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 296-351 (78.3 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gholdengo Hex (130 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 336-396 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Gholdengo Hex (130 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tera Dark Iron Leaves: 84-99 (26 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 154-183 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain over 2 turns vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 257-306 (79.8 - 95%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dark Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 221-265 (58.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dark Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 445-525 (117.7 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dark Iron Leaves Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 222-263 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


So the Taunt set cracks Dondozo easily.

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 252-299 (50 - 59.3%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Dondozo Wave Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 72-85 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 16.8% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 192-228 (59.6 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Clodsire is easily broken period:

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 286-337 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Clodsire Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 152-180 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO


Unfortunately, Iron Leaves needs Wild Charge to even try to get past Corviknight without Terastallizing:

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 118-140 (29.5 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 237-279 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 179-213 (44.8 - 53.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 356-421 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 254-302 (78.8 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 204-240 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Toxapex is easier to crack with Taunt than Swords Dance thanks to the threat of Haze. Iron Leaves might need both Taunt and Swords Dance or to use Psyblade to crack Chilling Water Toxapex, though:

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 107-126 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- 70.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 143-169 (47 - 55.5%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (11.1 - 13.1% recoil damage)
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Psyblade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 190-226 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Toxapex Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 110-132 (34.1 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Chilling Water vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Leaves: 15-18 (4.6 - 5.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever


Garganacl is also easier to crack with Taunt than Swords Dance:

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Garganacl: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Tera Fairy Garganacl: 117-138 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Leaves Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Tera Flying Garganacl: 156-185 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Leaves: 49-58 (15.2 - 18%) -- 97.4% chance to 4HKO after Salt Cure

 

[Stellar Flares]

The only problem with this set is that Tera Fairy Dirge sits on you all day. Donbozo also sits on you pretty damn hard.

I will reply to you by saying forcing the opponent to Terastallize just to deal with this set is completely fine with me, I'd even I'd be really happy as I'd just need to build around the Tera Fairy counter in the team to then apply pressure.

Also, Dondozo won't really be a counterpick to Walking Wakes because of the Special Sets being more frequent ; That being said, the usage of Walking Wakes shouldn't result in a rise of Dondozo usage, and therefore this set should be ok with Dondozo only being a Bad but uncommon Matchup

People are running scarf meow and pult which both wreck this set.

Agree on this, I definitely don't know what's the best Tera to Use on this Walking Wakes set ; but some Tera Fairy variants regarding Dragapult could be interesting (Scarf Pult sounds hilarious and a big downgrade to its Specs Variant power to me though)



Or even Tera Fire, who knows.



Edit : I assume you can also just live one hit from Meowscarada and KO it back if its Scarfed.

 

[SpritePony]

I will reply to you by saying forcing the opponent to Terastallize just to deal with this set is completely fine with me, I'd even I'd be really happy as I'd just need to build around the Tera Fairy counter in the team to then apply pressure.

Also, Dondozo won't really be a counterpick to Walking Wakes because of the Special Sets being more frequent ; That being said, the usage of Walking Wakes shouldn't result in a rise of Dondozo usage, and therefore this set should be ok with Dondozo only being a Bad but uncommon Matchup

1. Dirge Teraing depends upon the team. If they don't have anything that demands the need to remain Fire/Ghost, using your Tera on Dirge to no longer be weak to Rocks and other Dirges is more than worth it to check/counter your Wake set.
2. These Calcs would like a word with you:
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 89-105 (17.6 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo in Rain: 183-216 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo in Sun: 132-156 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 9.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 193-228 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Suicune Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 47-56 (9.3 - 11.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Suicune Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Rain: 71-84 (14 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Suicune Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 94-111 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Suicune Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 122-144 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Donbozo sits on you. SpDef Curse Bozo checks Wake, and the same set hard counters Sub DD.

Edit: Thought I'd throw my two cents in here. I've been playing around with Expert Belt Wake to bluff Choice, but with a twist; Dragon Tail.
The idea is that the opponent will want to switch into one of your small number of checks/counters, expecting any of your three primary attacks (Steam/Draco/Thrower). With Dragon Tail, unless they are a Fairy, they're forced out and are most likely taking even more hazard chip while you remain mostly unthreatened. Expert Belt trades immediate power for flexibility and really messes with the opponent's head.

 

[Stellar Flares]

1. Dirge Teraing depends upon the team. If they don't have anything that demands the need to remain Fire/Ghost, using your Tera on Dirge to no longer be weak to Rocks and other Dirges is more than worth it to check/counter your Wake set.
2. These Calcs would like a word with you:
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 89-105 (17.6 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo in Rain: 183-216 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo in Sun: 132-156 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 9.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 193-228 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Suicune Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 47-56 (9.3 - 11.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Suicune Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Rain: 71-84 (14 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Suicune Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 94-111 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Suicune Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 122-144 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Donbozo sits on you. SpDef Curse Bozo checks Wake, and the same set hard counters Sub DD.

Then you're playing Spe Def Dondozo, at this rate we're soon opening a whole new circus.

 

[SpritePony]

Then you're playing Spe Def Dondozo, at this rate we're soon opening a whole new circus.

No, we're not lmfao. OU Curse with SpDef is a COMMON set. It's even in there on Damage Calc set selection.

 

[Stellar Flares]

No, we're not lmfao. OU Curse with SpDef is a COMMON set. It's even in there on Damage Calc set selection.

Oops Indeed
I reckon I didn't know about it, then if it's the main way ppl are playing Dondozo I assume you're right

Sorry for my speech haha.

Then I wonder if Dondozo rly manages it well vs repeated Draco Meteors forcing it to Rest ?

Because of Unaware it doesn't take the Spa drop in count.

Also Idk about your calcs under Sun, Guess it's not that relevant neither from me ?

 

[SpritePony]

Oops Indeed
I reckon I didn't know about it, then if it's the main way ppl are playing Dondozo I assume you're right

Sorry for my speech haha.

Live and learn, my good player. Live and learn.

Edit: running a continued response from your edit.

Calcs under Sun are assuming Proto: Speed, or for Hydro Steam. Proto: Attack boosted Waterfall and Outrage are both there, and still don't do much to dent it. If it was Proto: Special Attack (which is weird AF), then maybe it could be a slower breaker.

 

[viivian]

No, we're not lmfao. OU Curse with SpDef is a COMMON set. It's even in there on Damage Calc set selection.

dondozo's most used sets run a physically defensive EV spread, not a specially defensive one. it's not unheard of to run special defense investment on dozo but it's just not as commonly used anymore now that chi-yu is no longer here. so not only is it not as common to see, but also it's really not that hard for walking wake to get past. if you swap out substitute for draco meteor and slap on a life orb then it's no longer a reliable answer.

• 4 SpA Life Orb Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 208-246 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

if stealth rocks are up then dozo either has to terastallize into a fairy or steel type or it likely dies the next turn. and this is assuming it's the rarer specially defensive variant and not the more common physically defensive variant, which of course gets destroyed. so if dondozo is a big concern for you when it comes to running DD wake then just run mixed investment with draco meteor since there's minimal opportunity cost and it does a fantastic job at breaking past common physical walls

 

[1LDK]

Has somebody gotten lucky with rain + Walking Wake? What are common partners if so

 

[viivian]

probably just the same old rain abusers. floatzel in particular seems to have great synergy with it on rain but amoonguss is a solid defensive backbone wake can fall back on whenever it's threatened out by a faster revenge killer.

 

[Vengeance417]

Been enjoying @ as a ploy to being choiced:

Walking Wake @ Expert Belt
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 SpA / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Steam
- Flamethrower
- Tera Blast

Either EV spread is fine, I just think the Speed-boosting Proto-boost set is the more optimal one with New Toy Syndrome still in effect. You still have deceptively-strong power when hitting Super Effectively, but can flip the script at any time when you play like you're Choice-locked.

Not a high-ladder player or anything, nor was this a good game (my opponent DD'd with Dragonite after I tricked it a Scarf lol), but here's an example replay just to get an idea of how it operates: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1810460534-pcr6w66zeu4wnqxcy1ahl43ct9a7z72pw