Metagame NP: Stage 1 - Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It Snow (Florges Ban Post #47)

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Our sincerest apologies for this thread going up a little late, but it's here! SV NU beta is here! Yes, it is before the end of the original alpha period, but that's because of a new policy implemented which can be found here. Regardless, as of the 23rd of February, we entered beta and some quickbans were issued, whose explanations can be found in this post made by Meri Berry. In short, the following were banned as of that day:

:sv/goodra: :sv/oricorio-pom-pom: :sv/venomoth:



With regards to where we are presently, March shifts happened yesterday and we did get some rather nice gifts from RU while losing nothing at the same time. We acquired the following from RU:

:sv/abomasnow: :sv/cetitan: :sv/dachsbun: AND :sv/bombirdier:

Bombirdier proves to have a few things it can do like setting rocks, having access to the now rare Knock Off, U-turn, and a 3rd STAB in Rock moves with its HA in Rocky Payload. Abomasnow + Cetitan is already a dangerous snow setting + abusing core while NU finally has a decent Fairy-type in Dachsbun. Where does this meta go from here? Let's hear it from all of you!​
 
The NU forecast currently is heavy snow with blizzards being spammed everywhere don't forget about the belly drumming cetitan though.
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Abomasnow sets snow and aurora veil for all of the ice types to abuse but I wanna talk about its merits as a Pokémon by itself. Stab combination of Blizzard and Giga drain is always great coverage and abomasnow even gets earthquake to hit steel types. The buff of snow giving abomasnow higher defense and snow not chipping like hail makes abomasnow more viable even after the abusers get banned.
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Me belly drum me sweep me get banned.
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Moth is already arguably broken without snow. Now it gets a defense buff and gets to sit behind aurora veil. You make think you have a counter but then it teras and your team is going to be 6-0ed. Going to be quick banned

Other Snow abusers I really like
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Crabominable is already quite good in the NU meta but having the Ice defense buff is really really nice. Assault vest sets also sit on blizzard/other common special attackers seen on snow team. A tank that takes hits and deals back huge damage its typing is actually somehow good in this meta.
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Glaceon has a base defense of 384 if it is under snow. It can also then sit behind aurora veil and become an even bulkier menace. +6 cetitan was doing about 35% to Glaceon behind aurora veil in the snow when I used it. It also has the Amazing ability Ice body which gives it healing while also being able to run boots. There are also sub ice body stall ideas in the snow as well. On top of this Glaceon has access to freeze dry which absolutely destroys vaporeon.
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Interesting potential when cetitan gets banned. It will be the only slush rush user which will make it a very strong option when cetitan is not in the way of its team slot

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First real fairy type in the tier with fire immunity wish and body press/play rough/roar gives it great utility. It also happens to be really good in the snow as well as it just sits in on fighting types trying to close combat the ice types like it is nothing. It will have potential in the tier and be really good not just in snow of course but on many bulkier/balance teams.

Finally Not snow related
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Even though it unfortunately does not have defog it still has more than enough utility to make up for it. Stealth rock/knock off/u turn combination is extremely nice. Especially knock off as passimian/klawf are the only other users while passimian is always choiced. Bombirdier also has other great support moves such as Rock tomb, Roost, Memento, and Taunt. You could also just go a plain choice scarf set as it outspeeds passimian has access to u-turn and a strong spammable brave bird. I think it will be very good glue for the tier and can be used on quite literally almost any team in some role or niche.
 
Bombirdier guy got me. Might as well make the most of Hone Claws' accuracy boost

:Bombirdier:
Bombirdier @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Rocky Payload
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Blast
- Knock Off
- Dual Wingbeat
- Hone Claws

:Glaceon:
Glaceon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Blizzard
- Trailblaze
- Shadow Ball

384 Def, 340 Spdef, 359 spatk, outspeeds base 105s (Zoroark and Scyther, missing out on lycanrock and jolteon) after a trailblaze. Freeze dry has good coverage, blizzard is 100% accurate, ghost is a good offensive type that makes you immune to close combat.
 

Rabia

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Cetitan so far seems pretty problematic. I don't think I'd call it outright broken, but the issue is defensive counterplay beyond Crocalor is nonexistent. If we compare it to Blastoise from last generation, another setup sweeper that relies on a single-turn move to boost and sweep, it's noticeably harder to deal with once it boosts. Naturally, +6 is stronger than +2, but because Cetitan's also quite fast and has priority, this limits the scope of counterplay even further. Choice Scarf Passimian needs minimal chip to fall to Ice Shard, while Medicham is simply OHKOed on the spot, and its Bullet Punch does barely half even if it's Choice Band. Something like Lycanroc even can struggle to revenge kill Cetitan because of Tera Ground or the potential snow/Aurora Veil buffing its bulk a ton.

Something like Blastoise felt manageable because it was still relatively weak after a boost; defensive Pokemon like Mantine and co. could tank a hit, get a Toxic off, and try and play from there to at least trade with it. Cetitan simply doesn't allow for that, and while some games it still feels pretty useless because it can be dissuaded with offensive pressure, there being no defensive counterplay exists once it boosts and offensive counterplay being really unreliable at best make it a prime ban target.
 

Rabia

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also if I see one more one-line response to these threads my head is going to explode; please only post if you have something substantive to add to the conversation.

Ren edit: Hijacking this post to say that if anyone has any questions about the current meta or something NU related that would fit in the category of a one liner (as in, a shorter question like "What's the best set for (recently dropped mon" or "Why do people think Cetitan is broken?"), you can always go to our Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread and ask it there. Also lol rabia really wrote an one-liner to complain about one-liners talk about HIPOCRISY
 
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EonX

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Not really gonna talk about Snow too much as plenty of others have taken are of that; particularly with Cetitan. That said, I kind of want to dive into what I feel are some pretty big winners and losers of the tier shifts:

WINNERS:

: I'm just gonna lump in all the offensive Ice-type mons into one. Frosmoth headlines these by far as it was already a borderline threat in the tier without Snow. Now with Snow and potentially an Aurora Veil boost, it becomes crazy difficult to prevent its initial setup and Tera Ground gets past even SpDef Crocalor with a solid 2HKO. Specs Glaceon is a nuke in Snow and Scarf Glaceon is a surprisingly speedy Blizzard spammer that is hard to rk on the physical side. Beartic is basically an extremely poor man's Cetitan, but if Cetitan is deemed to be a bigger issue than Snow as a whole, it stands to benefit quite a bit.

: Scarf Tauros outspeeds all Snow sweepers that aren't Cetitan and it has STAB Raging Bull to punch through potential Aurora Veil. Should Veil not be up, it can opt for the stronger Close Combat to wallop the Ice types. Glaceon and Beartic are a bit shaky due to their better bulk, but Frosmoth gets dropped by Tera Fighting CC in the absence of Veil due to its lower physical bulk. While competition from Scarf Passimian is as fierce as ever, the bull finally has a true niche as a Scarfer over Passimian that might be worth using. Also, if the Cetitan is Adamant, it does get outpaced by Scarf Tauros in Snow while +5 Ice Shard doesn't KO from full. You at least have hope.

: Not really a doubt that this thing is almost mandatory now on any non-offense team to have a decent chance at staving off Cetitan. The problem is that it has to be PhysDef which opens it up to the likes of Frosmoth and Tera Ground Glaceon, but considering how wild Cetitan is right now, that's something it kind of just has to do.

LOSERS:

: This was really starting to catch on as a sneaky good defensive Pokemon in the tier. The unfortunate fact is that there's no reason for the top Snow sweepers, Cetitan and Frosmoth, to run anything other than Ground coverage alongside their Ice STABs and this significantly hampers Appletun's defensive utility. It's still not bad, but being weak to potentially the most explosive playstyle in the current meta is not a good look.

: Drifblim got hit on all sides really. Not only does it not matchup well against Frosmoth in the first place, it's OHKOed by Icicle Crash from Cetitan w/o a boost unless you Tera and Bombirdier brings a strong STAB Knock Off as a Stealth Rock user. Previously, Drifblim had the fortune of matching up very well with the top Stealth Rock setters in the tier; capable of burning and outlasting Copperajah, stonewalling any Sandaconda without a damaging Rock move, and safely handling most of what Whiscash had to offer. Now there's a Stealth Rock setter capable of threatening it with a STAB Knock Off and Taunt to deter it from coming in to rid the field of Stealth Rock and other hazards.
 
I do not know how I feel about snow in the tier. Running counters like brick break/raging bull and similar tech makes them manageable, but having to run this type of stuff does feel pretty suffocating in the team builder. I almost wish light clay was in the tier so that I don’t see icy rock. Cetitan feels like it belongs in the tier until it drums and you just have to have crocalor ready or outplay 5-4 turns of snow.
Crocalor btw still feels underwhelming to run since hazard control is awful and running carkoal and quaxwell is a joke I don’t want to etertain anymore
 
Hello friends! I've been granted the chance to present the next council slate made this weekend, made in part to the recent March tier shifts, introducing Abomasnow, Bombirdier, Dachsbun, and the one who's fate I'm sure you're all most curious about, Cetitan.

Ban Slate
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As a result, both Cetitan and Oricorio-Sensu are now banned from SV NeverUsed. tagging Kris and Marty to implement please and thank you :3

Cetitan is an incredibly volatile Pokemon, with amazing bulk and easy support granted from Abomasnow and others allowing it to effortlessly Belly Drum and make use of its amazing coverage and priority Ice Shard to sweep teams with ease. I'm not going to bore you with a wall of calcs already posted above in the thread, but defensively Cetitan has INSANE natural bulk which is only further boosted by Snow and potential Aurora Veil. Offensively, +6 Ice Shard, which can be further boosted by Tera Ice, simply OHKO's all offensive checks, while Tera Earthquake easily picks off the few Fire- and Steel-types that can somehow take a +6 Ice Spinner. Belly Drum Pokemon with Priority moves have historically been problematic for NU, and Cetitan, especially with its insane bulk and versatile Terastallization options, is no exception.

Oricorio-Sensu was quite similar to Oricorio-Pom-Pom, although admittedly most would argue Sensu is better offensively (while Pom-pom's better defensive profile let it set up better). Ghost is simply a better offensive typing, but with Tera Ground and Fighting to blast past would-be checks, and Taunt used as an option sometimes to stop Roar, Glare, Haze and other anti-setup options, Oricorio-Sensu has proven to be too much for the tier.

Can't promise anything yet, but expect an incoming suspect test for Frosmoth or Bruxish in the next week or so (?). Will write a bit about the council's general thoughts on the metagame in a separate post soon. Thank you everyone!
 
Hello friends! I've been granted the chance to present the next council slate made this weekend, made in part to the recent March tier shifts, introducing Abomasnow, Bombirdier, Dachsbun, and the one who's fate I'm sure you're all most curious about, Cetitan.


As a result, both Cetitan and Oricorio-Sensu are now banned from SV NeverUsed. tagging Kris and Marty to implement please and thank you :3

Cetitan is an incredibly volatile Pokemon, with amazing bulk and easy support granted from Abomasnow and others allowing it to effortlessly Belly Drum and make use of its amazing coverage and priority Ice Shard to sweep teams with ease. I'm not going to bore you with a wall of calcs already posted above in the thread, but defensively Cetitan has INSANE natural bulk which is only further boosted by Snow and potential Aurora Veil. Offensively, +6 Ice Shard, which can be further boosted by Tera Ice, simply OHKO's all offensive checks, while Tera Earthquake easily picks off the few Fire- and Steel-types that can somehow take a +6 Ice Spinner. Belly Drum Pokemon with Priority moves have historically been problematic for NU, and Cetitan, especially with its insane bulk and versatile Terastallization options, is no exception.

Oricorio-Sensu was quite similar to Oricorio-Pom-Pom, although admittedly most would argue Sensu is better offensively (while Pom-pom's better defensive profile let it set up better). Ghost is simply a better offensive typing, but with Tera Ground and Fighting to blast past would-be checks, and Taunt used as an option sometimes to stop Roar, Glare, Haze and other anti-setup options, Oricorio-Sensu has proven to be too much for the tier.

Can't promise anything yet, but expect an incoming suspect test for Frosmoth or Bruxish in the next week or so (?). Will write a bit about the council's general thoughts on the metagame in a separate post soon. Thank you everyone!
noooo i'll miss life orb sheer force cetitan, I felt like that version of the mon fit the tier well. I am glad to see it go though, as I stated earlier, snow teams were restricting the teambuilder to the point it was not fun. Interesting to see sensu banned tho, I didn't expect that one to happen. Ori-Baile is good enough for the tier I hope, I would hate us having to use pau :(. I think I would like to see a suspect test of frosmoth over bruxish, it feels like we have more answers to physical attackers than special, especially an offensive water type that has to think about vaporeon and cacturne to an extent. These are just my initial thoughts on these bans haha
 
well, i cant say i agree with the sensu ban, but that may be because i enjoyed using it so much XD
with cetitan going, snow has been nerfed for sure, is it enough though? i'm not convinced beartic cant fill the role quite well. we'll see
 
well, i cant say i agree with the sensu ban, but that may be because i enjoyed using it so much XD
with cetitan going, snow has been nerfed for sure, is it enough though? i'm not convinced beartic cant fill the role quite well. we'll see
I think beartic is worse enough where it’s not a huge problem. They can’t run adamant as passimian outspeeds it and with no good priority move like cetitan. Also having less bulk than cetitan and no belly drum most likely seals the deal on any set up the mon wants to go for tbh, choice band might be its consistent set. I will say that if beartic does pop off, I can’t say it would be too surprising.
 
Hello friends! I've been granted the chance to present the next council slate made this weekend, made in part to the recent March tier shifts, introducing Abomasnow, Bombirdier, Dachsbun, and the one who's fate I'm sure you're all most curious about, Cetitan.


As a result, both Cetitan and Oricorio-Sensu are now banned from SV NeverUsed. tagging Kris and Marty to implement please and thank you :3

Cetitan is an incredibly volatile Pokemon, with amazing bulk and easy support granted from Abomasnow and others allowing it to effortlessly Belly Drum and make use of its amazing coverage and priority Ice Shard to sweep teams with ease. I'm not going to bore you with a wall of calcs already posted above in the thread, but defensively Cetitan has INSANE natural bulk which is only further boosted by Snow and potential Aurora Veil. Offensively, +6 Ice Shard, which can be further boosted by Tera Ice, simply OHKO's all offensive checks, while Tera Earthquake easily picks off the few Fire- and Steel-types that can somehow take a +6 Ice Spinner. Belly Drum Pokemon with Priority moves have historically been problematic for NU, and Cetitan, especially with its insane bulk and versatile Terastallization options, is no exception.

Oricorio-Sensu was quite similar to Oricorio-Pom-Pom, although admittedly most would argue Sensu is better offensively (while Pom-pom's better defensive profile let it set up better). Ghost is simply a better offensive typing, but with Tera Ground and Fighting to blast past would-be checks, and Taunt used as an option sometimes to stop Roar, Glare, Haze and other anti-setup options, Oricorio-Sensu has proven to be too much for the tier.

Can't promise anything yet, but expect an incoming suspect test for Frosmoth or Bruxish in the next week or so (?). Will write a bit about the council's general thoughts on the metagame in a separate post soon. Thank you everyone!
So many people have asked me why Bruxish and Frosmoth have not been quickbanned and, put simply, these two Pokemon may warrant specific checks, but these checks are not so absurd to run that it has a profound effect on the metagame. Bruxish has a narrow range of niche checks thanks, to its admittedly poor offensive typing, despite its raw power. Cacturne and Tera Dark Vaporeon are two of pretty few checks but these Pokemon have MANY purposes on a team besides beating Bruxish, and are quite easy to put on most teams. Passimian, the best Pokemon in the tier offers a Choice Scarf Knock Off and U-turn to threaten Bruxish, two of the most drawback free moves in the entire game. This splashability is much unlike Crocalor, which was the only relevant Cetitan check in the tier. Beyond Cetitan lacking relevant defensive checks at all (Bruxish and Frosmoth may have limited checks but at least they exist), Cetitan has 0 offensive checks either, which cannot be said for Bruxish and Frosmoth. That's not to say these Pokemon are deemed as "balanced" but rather it only makes sense to ban the most restrictive Pokemon in the tier first, to see if that creates less strain in dealing with other threats. Because Bruxish and Frosmoth are so borderline broken; Bruxish may have a poor offensive typing but its raw power often completely negates this, and its set diversity makes playing around it prior to heavy scouting very dangerous and Frosmoth can simply remove nearly any defensive check with a timely and appropriate Terastallization, and even turn the tables on offensive threats like Passimian and Lycanroc with, again, a specific Tera type (funny mechanic haha). I hope this makes sense to those wondering.

TL;DR Bruxish and Frosmoth have checks even if they're quite limited, our goal was to remove Cetitan as it lacked any real checks and Sensu for doing Pom-Pom things but spooky. We hear your voices do not worry :3
 

EonX

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Kinda following up from the post above with my own thoughts about Frosmoth and Bruxish:

: So, truth be told, this has been what I've used on Snow teams since Abomasnow dropped. I figured Cetitan would get banned pretty quickly bc there was such little counterplay against it. Based on my experience from using it and playing against it (primarily using it) it is definitely an extremely potent threat. However, I feel there's one thing in particular that really helps in dealing with it; its Speed tier. Base 65 is not a great Speed tier for an offensive Pokemon as this means Frosmoth actually has a pretty difficult time setting up against more offensive teams as it can't boost its Special Defense before taking a hit. Now, yes, Ice Scales definitely helps with this, but considering Frosmoth's low physical bulk (outside of Snow at least) and inability to outspeed the best Choice Scarf user in the tier at +1, you want as much remaining HP as possible in order to stomach a hit from Passimian or Scarf Tauros. Now this may not seem like a big deal since the Snow Defense boost will help with this. However, keep in mind that Frosmoth doesn't exactly handle Steel-types that well outside of its Tera coverage. Remember that Snow only boosts Defense as long as Frosmoth remains an Ice-type. Once it's forced to Tera in order to remove a threat, like, say Whirlwind Copperajah for example, it loses this Defense boost and becomes much more vulnerable to these Fighting-type Scarf users. There's also Haze Vaporeon to wipe out your boosts, Thunder Wave Tera Fairy Umbreon to ruin your sweep outright, and Accelerock Lycanroc to either revenge kill or another means to force a Tera to remove the Defense boost. What do all of these Pokemon have in common? Simple; they're top options even outside of handling Frosmoth. Not saying Frosmoth isn't broken, but there's clear counterplay to it that can be fit onto most teams without much hassle.

: I have less experience using this one, and I'm admittedly going to be a little bias in all likelihood because I use Vaporeon on most of my teams (it's my favorite Pokemon period, so deal with it) That said, Bruxish being checked by arguably the best defensive Pokemon in the tier is not the best look for it. Its Speed tier is good, but it still is pretty vulnerable to numerous faster Pokemon. The main 3 being Scarf Passimian, any offensive Tauros variant (probably 95% of them) and physical variants of Zoroark. The two listed Fighting types have more than enough physical bulk to handle Banded Aqua Jet from a decent health range and threaten it back with Knock Off or U-turn and Wild Charge respectively. Zoroark may be decimated by Aqua Jet due to its frailty, but its access to Sucker Punch and a higher natural Speed tier means physical variants will mortally threaten Bruxish. Cacturne also stands out as a potent Bruxish answer assuming there's no Ice Fang present. Even if there is, Bruxish has to catch it on the switch or play the Sucker Punch game. I've already mentioned Vaporeon, but there's a couple of other defensive Pokemon that aren't mortally threatened by either STAB and can either resist one or outright immune to one without being weak to the other. Chief among them is Umbreon as its Psychic immunity will always make Bruxish pensive about going for Psychic Fangs while Wave Crash only 2HKOes Specially Defensive variants (Tera Fairy Calm Mind variants are typically Physically Defensive) Appletun 4x resists Wave Crash and is typically Tera Steel, which saves it should it switch into Psychic Fangs or Ice Fang. Finally, there's the issue of getting Bruxish in to begin with. Its bulk is quite unimpressive and it's weak to Dark, Bug, and Electric which are pretty common types here. This means it will generally need a slow pivot to safely get in or require a teammate to be KOed in order to put itself in a position to start ripping into things. Again, not trying to say Bruxish is or isn't broken. Just stating some of the viable counterplay against it that you can fit into most teams.
 

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echoing the two posts above, I'm going to give my opinion on frosmoth and bruxish, but I'll also add a paragraph on the one thing I consider to be the most ridiculous in the current metagame:
:sv/frosmoth:
this thing is simply ridiculous. it has extremely high damage output, is the one quiver dancer that isn't at least neutered in some way by the corios and just takes a whole other dimension with tera allowing it to set-up in the face of every single special attacker in the tier. this Pokemon is something you can't give a free turn to, because if you do, it can easily set-up more than 1 quiver dance signing the end of the game for you. that would make you stand a chance against moth, however, only if you have a form of speed controle that outpaces it at +1 like scarf passi, scarf medi, scarf pauros, or if you have one of: spd croc that you'd have to tera, chansey, max spd haze vapo (honestly who), max spd umbreon. and even most of those aren't 100% safe against specific tera types and/or moveslots. moth puts up so much pressure in game that every single mon on your team gets its proficiency accrued. your physical attackers will have an easier time pivoting because the likes of blimp, dachsbun or even sanda mostly give frosmoth a free turn, the opponent will often want to save their moth check's health which makes them usually play with 5 mons subconsciously. moth literally transforms any game into a guessing game version of terror, as there's low-key nothing that's 100% safe into it, and if you don't wanna gamble on which tera frosmoth is going to use, ghost to plow through chansey and have an easier time setting up on locked fighting types like passimian, ground or fire to break through copper, muk, and steel type tera mons as well as getting better set-up opportunities into defensive mons that would be packing rock / steel moves, electric to avoid paralysis and dish out strong bolt-beam coverage after setting up, tera fairy also helps with the aforementioned fighting types as well as doesn't let you get dragged out by dragon-tail from av eelektross and tera-fairy appletun, the list goes on and on and atp if you don't wanna gamble into frosmoth you're probably mandated to pack a random phazer that would have to tera most of the time like blimp, muk, vapo or whirlwind copper. yes, all of its checks are already top mons in the metagame, yes they aren't used solely to check frosmoth, but the real deal is that in game vs frosmoth, you would most likely have to use them solely as a moth check because otherwise you would lose to it, or you'd have to pack multiple passive mons in order to stand a chance. idt frosmoth is an unstoppable force, but it is certainly restrictive enough both in the builder and in game to be banned imo.
:sv/bruxish:
this thing is getting what I like to call the Medicham syndrome. this syndrome is basically when people see a mon that seems completely broken and they don't want to lose against it, they just happen to find countermeasures that become really popular and aforementioned broken mons falls into mediocrity. first case of this was Medicham this gen, who admittedly has no switch-ins in nu let's be real, but still managed to suck ass for the first month because everyone was so fucking obsessed with it that nothing on teams gave it free turns and its subpar bulk/offensive typing/speed stat didn't give it enough opportunities. Bruxish is kind of in this position rn, (which btw has made Medicham a bit better but this is not today's post concern) where everyone is starting to be overly obsessed with not losing to it, and therefore don't pack random ass weaklings that give it free turns. its bulk and offensive typing are somehow even worse than Medicham's but they for sure are backed-up by it's very good speedtier. having 311 speed is rly good down here, and is what makes it a bit borderline in my opinion. however, given how frail it and how bad its general defensive profile is into the metagame, it really struggles to get in. being weak to knock and turn when the most used Pokemon in the tier is passimian sucks, having 311 speed in a tier ruled by corios sucks, although now that both sensu and pompom are gone it's a bit less of a problem for it and might prove to be an issue for the tier in the near future. but for now, I simply don't see it anymore, I think Bruxish is not as broken as people would like to think it is, on top of getting medichamed, we have a lot of common defensive Pokemon that can keep it in check such as phys-def umbreon, tera dark vapo, drifblim, tera water sanda, appletun etc... as well as cacturne but watch out for poison fangs. I think this guy might deserve a suspect down the line, but for now I'd probably not do anything.
:sv/zoroark:
the real demon behind this tier, the fucking evil dark fox whatever the fuck that is supposed to be is in my opinion the most broken Pokemon in nu rn. put simply, there's nothing that switches safely into this guy depending in its set, and for gods sake does it have many. specs sets shred appart most teams that don't pack either umbreon or chansey (which are susceptible to get tricked down the line and struggle to check zoro afterwards), if you think specs sets are fine, wait until you see sub np ones. expected both of those? take a banded tera dark knock off to the throat and lose your special wall. the list goes on and on and I don't think set variety has ever been an argument to address sheer brokenness anyway, but when each set has such little counterplay, it's already a bit alarming. but what pushes this guy over the edge in my opinion is the illusion mind games. Illusion just makes the notion of check disappear, especially knowing that if the mon Zoro's disguised into has tera'd, it copies the tera type??? you simply can't send in your umbreon anymore scouting for which zoro set it's going to be since it's going to be disguised as a passi. what in the absolute fuck are you supposed to do if a CC comes your way, you go sanda/blimp and you get ohkoed by specs tera dark dark pulse. you have to guess every time a Pokemon comes in whether or not it's zoro, remember throughout the game at what percent you left every Pokemon because you can't just check during the turn you're against the zoro as ps will show you both the mon used as the disguise and zoro at the same percentage no matter how much dmg you dealt to either. illusion has always been a pain in the ass to deal with throughout generations, but this gen we don't have sturdy enough defensive counterplay to deal with Zoro's shenanigans. oh also, fun part, this thing makes moth 100 times more demonic than it should be just by existing :). I think if no council vote is held for a quick ban (which I would honestly advocate for as I think zoro is 100% worthy of a quickban and that waiting further for this guy is completely unnecessary) I would at least advocate for a suspect test to happen alongside moth's.

I would love to see more discussion around these meta threats, so I encourage everyone to post their opinion on these guys. discussion only makes for healthier, better environments, and allows for nu's continuous growth as a community and as a tier, so I'm inviting you to contribute to it, even in the slightest :D.
 
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For those of you getting swept by Frosmoth: I got the solution for you!
Just run Assault Vest Crabominable and make sure not to tera into anything. This thing resists ice beam and can easily tank up to 3 2x Special Attack of them, and you can easily 1-shot back with Drain Punch(Or Close Combat if you want the extra damage). Also, this thing needs to be max HP and 4 special defense(no + special defense nature needed) in order to tank the moves, since Frosmoth users tend to just run Ice Beam and sometimes Tera Blast as their attacks. AV Crabominable is also good for tanking other special attackers such as Specs Jolteon and even some physical attackers like Passimian(needs tera tho).
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
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:sv/misdreavus:

Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Draining Kiss

Total credit to zS for turning me onto this on the other day. Misdreavus is a super underrated threat in the current metagame that deserves more use. Thanks to Taunt, Nasty Plot, and some great bulk after the Eviolite Boost, Misdreavus acts as a powerful stallbreaker who, in conjunction with Tera Fairy D Kiss, can easily spiral out of control and win games on the spot. Missy also boasts a coveted Fight resist for Pass, Croak, and Medi, a solid speed tier for the metagame, and Levitate, which lets it rip through Sanda + Vap cores with ease, especially the mono EQ sets. Definitely something worth taking a closer look at in the builder!

P.S. (Thanks to zs for telling me about this too) Tera Fairy buffs D Kiss to 60 BP instead of 40, which is a pretty insane buff, especially on this mon.

Replay showing Taunt Missy in action
 
:sv/misdreavus:

Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Draining Kiss

Total credit to zS for turning me onto this on the other day. Misdreavus is a super underrated threat in the current metagame that deserves more use. Thanks to Taunt, Nasty Plot, and some great bulk after the Eviolite Boost, Misdreavus acts as a powerful stallbreaker who, in conjunction with Tera Fairy D Kiss, can easily spiral out of control and win games on the spot. Missy also boasts a coveted Fight resist for Pass, Croak, and Medi, a solid speed tier for the metagame, and Levitate, which lets it rip through Sanda + Vap cores with ease, especially the mono EQ sets. Definitely something worth taking a closer look at in the builder!

P.S. (Thanks to zs for telling me about this too) Tera Fairy buffs D Kiss to 60 BP instead of 40, which is a pretty insane buff, especially on this mon.

Replay showing Taunt Missy in action
Been wanting to try this out ever since I experienced how insane adult missy was in RU! Definitely gonna play around with this in the builder, maybe try to tweak the spread a little to hit some fun calcs. May I ask what the biggest challenge was when using it on the team you used? Also wanted to mention that D Kiss is 50 and not 40, so you actually hit 75 BP with tera!
 
Been wanting to try this out ever since I experienced how insane adult missy was in RU! Definitely gonna play around with this in the builder, maybe try to tweak the spread a little to hit some fun calcs. May I ask what the biggest challenge was when using it on the team you used? Also wanted to mention that D Kiss is 50 and not 40, so you actually hit 75 BP with tera!
Draining Kiss is 50, but the "pseudoTechnician" boost is capped at 60, so having 40 or 50 BP is the same unfort
 

poh

<?>
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Some mons i've been enjoying a lot using.



Lycanroc sits in a really good speed tier outspeeding the whole (unboosted) meta bar jolteon, so lategame this mon is rly good at picking off your opponent. I think Loaded Dice is very viable on this mon considering that you always land 4 hits (assuming you hit) and hitting 5 times seems very common from my experience. For context, hitting rock blast 5 times is as strong as a life orb boosted stone edge. So you get better accuracy for the same power more or less. Stone edge also tends to get pp stalled by sanda. Tera ghost can help vs passimian and something like tera water gives you decent odds to live a cc and helps vs sanda.


Ok losing roost sucks a lot but it got cc so yay! Another good fastmon that can take advantage of passimian. The speed tier coupled with a strong uturn means you can chip and wear down teams easier. Tried using trailblaze on it but ehh doesn't seem worth it / difficult to pull off. This meta is all about pivoting and getting the hard hitters in and scyther definitely does that.


Rotom once again shows how good of a utility mon it is. Scarf outspeeds passimian aka speed control of 90% of teams, wisp hex to chip the opponent, nasty plot turns it into a breaker (although admittedly it doesn't do it that well. A rly good sanda switchin since it CAN'T GET GLARED!!!! Definitely use this mon more it's so useful.



Last but not least, eel. This mon is slowly becoming an S rank worthy mon imo. The versatility is insane. Again a safe sanda switchin. Special sponge with av, wincon with coil, even specs isnt bad either lmao.
 

EonX

Battle Soul
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I kind of want to second poh on Eel. This thing is so easy to use right now. Having a safe Sanda switch in is insanely good and this pairs quite well with Vaporeon, so the lack of recovery for AV isn't that big a deal. It's also got a slow pivot, and being able to get in your big hitters unscathed is absolutely amazing. I haven't really tried Specs, so I won't speak to that. Anyone who knows me, knows that I love slow pivots with a defense-first mentality, so it shouldn't come as a shock that AV is my favorite set on this thing. The best thing about AV imo is that it can run so many moves in its last slot to better fit your team's needs. Need a phazer? Slap on Dragon Tail. Need to spread paralysis while dealing damage? Use Discharge. Want to put a charge into SpDef Muk and block opposing Volt Switch? Tera Blast Ground is here for you. Really want to be Frosmoth's worst nightmare? Make yourself Tera Steel and laugh (you might want Dragon Tail bc Ice Scales is still a thing) Another big advantage it has is Levitate making it immune to all the grounded hazards around. This particularly includes Toxic Spikes from Muk and Skuntank and although other SpDef mons like Copperajah and Muk also don't care about TSpikes, they're still grounded and take Spikes damage in a meta where hazard removal isn't exactly easy. I'll let others who have more experience with Coil sets hype that one up, but I'm sure it works well.

Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Dragon Tail
 
Beartic @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Beartic @ Choice Band
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Play Rough


This mon is underrated as hell. It is VERY scary to deal with under snow. The nature is either jolly or adamant. Jolly is a bit better to outspeed scarf pass. Adamant's brutal power is too hard to give up though. Tera fighting or ice is pretty good.
252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ice Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passimian: 291-343 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Fighting Beartic Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passimian: 170-201 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

tera ice lets u have a pretty nice chance to ko pass after rocks.
The biggest reason why ice is soo good is it lets u ohko sandaconda[no boost]or tera fairy conda after sd

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ice Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Sandaconda: 325-385 (93.3 - 110.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

under snow and aurora veil its a pretty big threat.

252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Beartic in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 150-177 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tera Fighting Passimian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Beartic in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 200-236 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

incredibly underated. It has issues like jolly vs adamant. It also needs tera ice to actually ko sandaconda.its also slow. Its still outsped by scarf rotom.
Overall a pretty underated gem that def needs more exploration.
 
:changry::bw/drifblim: :fukyu: :bw/swalot: :sawsbuck: :medicham: :jolteon: :dudunsparce: :quagchamppogsire:
I've been using Swalot on a hazard stack team to help pressure the premier Defog user of the tier, Drifblim. Liquid Ooze causes Driblim to lose up to half of its HP using Strength Sap on Swalot, effectively blocking the heal similarly to Xatu blocking Vileplume's healing in SS. This forces Drifblim extremely low which, especially with Knock Off support, helps Pokemon that may struggle to break through Drifblim otherwise such as Medicham, Sawsbuck, and Dudunsparce. Beyond Liquid Ooze, Swalot has an amazing utility movepool with Toxic (Spikes), Encore, and Pain Split with a movepool, stats, and typing akin to Muk, an A+ Pokemon.

Swalot @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Encore
 
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Oathkeeper

"Wait!" he says, do I look like a waiter?
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Hello NU community! April (not fools) shifts are here and a few things happened.

Gained: :sv/barraskewda: :sv/charizard: :sv/floatzel: :sv/florges:
Lost: :sv/abomasnow: :sv/copperajah: :sv/frosmoth: :sv/whiscash:

In short, we gained a couple of rain abusers in Skewda and Float. Both are naturally fast enough to have their own standalone sets to be dangerous. Roost-less Charizard is definitely not that great. You might see the occasional SD or BD set with Tera Dragon or smth. We then get a upgrade over Dachsbun with Florges. Both can Wish yes, but Florges's natural SpDef serves it well. It can also potentially run a CM set with Psychic or a Tera type to make itself a setup sweeper. On the flipside, we lost a couple of great rockers (Copper, Whiscash), a scary sweeper (Frosmoth), and an auto-snow setter. Just as quickly as the snow era of SV NU started, it ends quickly with a setter gone and its abusers gone as well. Let's see how this meta goes. Enjoy everyone!​
 

Danny

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
ZU Circuit Champion
New Additions:

:sv/barraskewda:
Barraskewda @ Life Orb/Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs

In my opinion barraskewda is borderline broken. Many of the most common water resists crumble to a tera fight cc, and the usual physdef pokemon are one Defense drop away from being 2hko'd by liquidation. If this mon is used with rain, it is without a doubt unstoppable. It does have some drawbacks however. As pointed out very eloquently by my fellow nu players Togkey and OnArceus
OnArceusToday at 8:08 PM
lorb sounds very death

[8:08 PM]
i think he will live 5 mintes

TogkeyToday at 8:10 PM
I think he will get one KO every minute

I would keep an eye on barraskewda specifically in the next round of NU Swiss to see how it fares in the current metagame. It's speed tier along with not necessarily needing rain is what perhaps makes it overbearing for our defensive cores, but its frailty might allow it to only get one or two kills before it dies.


:sv/charizard:
Charizard @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: Grass / Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Belly Drum
- Flame Charge
- Tera Blast / Earthquake / Substitute

After losing roost and defog between generation 8 and 9 charizard has transitioned from talonflame-lite to hariyama-lite with the popularization of its belly drum set. It was extremely potent in ru during the height of the screens meta, after the light clay ban it has dropped down a tier to terrorize nu. Unfortunately my not so blazing hot take is that it will be pretty mid. I am sure a creative Hyper Offense builder can find a really potent way to incorporate memento spam with set up opportunities but I do not think it will win many games besides the occasional match up fish. Rocky helmet is extremely common on our defensive mons, and priority is everywhere. Aqua jet(mitigated by tera), shadow sneak, and sucker punch are extremely common moves. There are also other ways to force the charizard to die such as Aftermath Drifblim and Skuntank. All in all it seems like a pretty cheesy PU mon that is on its way down.

:sv/floatzel:
Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Electric / Grass / Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Tera Blast
- Aqua Jet

Floatzel @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Veil
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Liquidation
- Tera Blast

Floatzel @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Tera Blast
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam

Okay not going to waste much time with this one. There are not very many reasons to use this mon. IF you so choose, I would reccomend the banded set on manual rain ig. It really will not impact the meta much in my opinion. It will rise and drop depending on whether or not pelipper is allowed in UU.

:sv/florges:
Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
Tera Type: Poison / Grass / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Protect

Florges @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flower Veil
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Trick
- Draining Kiss

According to some this mon is broken. I can honestly understand the sentiment. Having lost our best steel type Florges is poised to be a very potent fat win condition. I personally do not see how it is overwhelming for the tier but it is a GREAT addition. A fairy type that isn't extremely frail on the spD side, it can compress many roles that teams would like. zS reccomended the specs Florges set but Wish CM or Synthesis CM with extra coverage both seem extremely dangerous.

Losses:

Losing obama means we don;t have hail. That is all. It removes an arguably broken element of our tier. The same goes for frosmoth as it was potentially overbearing for the tier anyhow. I see these rises as a win. On the other end of the spectrum, I see the loss of copper and cash money as absolute travesties. I already alluded to potentially overbearing pokemon now that we lost our only steel type, however we lost another hazard setter as well with the loss of cash. I will post extensively about the drought of steel types and what that means on our tier going forward but for the time being we must try and adapt. Some obvious reccomendations are AV/SR perrserker and Eviolite magneton potentially becoming metagame staples to fill the void. I will say that many teams opted to go without steel types as shown by 7/10 of our samples having steels to begin with.

Summary:

The shifts have affected NU immensely, and I am looking forward to the new development in the upcoming weeks. There are some potentially worrying pokemon but all in all I hope that the drops will allow a bit more creativity to shine through.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Barraskewda @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch / Poison Jab / Aqua Jet

Let's not sugercoat it; Barraskewda is immediately one of the most dangerous mons NU has ever seen so far. An unparalleled speed tier, great Atk, and frankly ludicrous coverage lets it threaten almost anything in the tier right off the bat. Tera Fighting serves two purposes; the first is obviously to boost Close Combat, making it the main 'STAB' of choice that does like 60% minimum to phys def Vaporeon. The second is to provide a useful Sucker Punch resistance in case you thought priority could save you against it. Liquidation & Close Combat alone cover the vast majority of the tier, with Psychic Fangs picking up stragglers like Toxicroak and Qwilfish. Last move can be Crunch to cleanly 2HKO even max HP / max Def Drifblim as well as get the OHKO on things like Bruxish and max HP Rotom. Poison Jab can be used to punish Tera Fairies + newcomer Florges that try to resist your Tera Close Combat, or (if you're not Tera Fighting yet) hit bulky Grasses like Appletun and Leafeon that might try to pop up and tank you. If you do not need either of these additional coverage moves though, you can just stick to good ol' Aqua Jet, which is also another Sucker Punch deterrent. The only things that Jolly Barra outruns that Adamant Barra does not are Jolteon and opposing Barraskewda, but if you can manage to handle those threats then you can go Adamant. Personally I feel Barra itself is already such a huge threat that it alone serves as good enough reason to consider Jolly to not always lose speedties.



Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Synthesis

Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Psychic / Stored Power
- Synthesis

Already this is almost an entirely strict upgrade from "Dachsbun" in terms of a defensive Fairy, but there's so much more to Florges. From a glance, I foresee two ways to play defensive Florges in this meta. The first is leveraging its gigantic special bulk to utterly blank dangerous special mons like Zoroark, Clawitzer, and Rotom-Frost, while making use of Tera Grass + Flower Veil to absorb status from the likes of Sandaconda, Dudunsparce, Drifblim, Rotom, etc. The other variant, and imo the set to beat, would be physically defensive Calm Mind Florges. Not only does it make use of the good physical resistances that Fairy has, but it also turns Florges into an annoyingly bulky wincon. Tera Poison not only blocks Toxic, but it also allows Florges to completely turn the tables against Muk by blanking all of its usual moves, all while still keeping its useful resistances to Fighting and U-turn. From there, Muk's only option to not lose 1v1 to Poison Florges is to Tera Steel, and even this only forces the matchup into a stalemate (Muk still needs Curse to actually reliably come out on top). Psychic is typically preferred on this Florges to combat Haze Muk, but it should be noted that Florges does learn Stored Power so this threat should not be discounted. Another nice thing about Poison Florges is that most of the things that want to punish Poison, like Sandaconda and Bruxish, really do not want to switch into Moonblasts at all, adding another annoying layer to fight it.
 
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