Metagame Almost Any Ability

[UngaTheDunga]

To preface this, keep in mind that Tera is banned

• Corviknight doesn't really need both Brave Bird and Body Press, it'd rather run Defog over one of them, especially since Quaquaval is the team's only form of hazard control as of now
• Having multiple Fire immunities is somewhat redundant; I'd change either Corviknight's or Quaquaval's ability
  • Corviknight could be changed to one of Fluffy, Intimidate, or Volt Absorb
  • Quaquaval could be changed to Magic Guard
• Quaquaval could use several changes
  • Ice Spinner isn't particularly necessary and should be swapped out to Swords Dance or Roost
  • Since we already have Rapid Spin to boost Quaquaval's Speed, Wave Crash's higher power might be preferred over Aqua Step's Speed boost
  • Mystic Water (or Life Orb if Magic Guard) is an alternative to Leftovers if extra power is desired
• Dragonite should run Aerilate over Supreme Overlord
  • Supreme Overlord is 1.5x when all of its allies are fainted, whereas Aerilate is 1.8x right off the bat
  • Flying is a much better offensive type than Normal
• Toxapex feels really out of place on an offense team; some kind of pivot would be more fitting

Here's a revised version I put together:

• The following changes have been made to Corviknight:
  • Body Press has been changed to Defog to help deal with hazards
  • Rocky Helmet has been changed to Leftovers, as Corviknight is the team's only solid answer to a lot of physical attackers and therefore needs all the longevity it can get
• The following changes have been made to Quaquaval:
  • Since Corviknight already deals with Fire-types, Quaquaval has had its ability changed to Magic Guard to bolster its longevity
  • Since it's now Magic Guard, its item has been changed to Life Orb to keep it threatening
  • Ice Spinner has been changed to Roost
• Supreme Overlord has been changed to Aerilate on Dragonite
• Toxapex has been replaced with Sandy Shocks for the following reasons:
  • It helps to bring in its teammates with Volt Switch
  • It breaks past Well-Baked Body Corv, which was something of a tough matchup
  • It provides immediate power, something the team was somewhat lacking in

• Corviknight would much rather run something like Intimidate, Well-Baked Body, Fluffy, or Volt Absorb over Iron Barbs
• I'm not entirely sure what Corv's and Garchomp's EV spreads are meant to accomplish, feels like max bulk investment would generally be more useful
• Cinderace really wants some way to negate hazard chip
• Iron Moth's current set is very prediction reliant, easy to switch around, and prone to being worn down by hazards
• Iron Treads should have Volt Switch over Stone Edge. Besides that, this doesn't do much outside of the Iron Moth matchup.

Here's a revised version I put together:

• Corviknight's and Garchomp's EV spreads have been changed to maximize their defensive capabilities
• Corviknight has been given Intimidate to help it against physical attackers
• Rocky Helmet has been changed to Leftovers for extra longevity
• MG remedies Cinderace's problems with entry hazard chip. Heavy Duty Boots + Mold Breaker/Drought would also work here.
• Court Change has been changed to High Jump Kick to let it chunk stuff like WBB Steels, Garganacl, and Ting-Lu, though this change could be reverted
• Heavy-Duty Boots with Fiery Dance/Discharge/U-turn/Morning Sun can't be switched around as easily, as it isn't hindered by choice lock nor does it have to worry about being worn down by hazards or weaker attacks
• Sandy Shocks has been replaced with Meowscarada to help pressure Ground-types, as suggested by UngaTheDunga
• Kingambit fills in Iron Treads's role as an Iron Moth answer while also providing a wincon, something the team was somewhat lacking in prior

Keep in mind that the changes made are subjective

Hey thanks For the help !

 

[ShuckleNamedJack]

Flare Boost Greninja is fun to use, it outspeeds and cripples Iron Leaves and Roaring Moon, limits Corv's potential (but does not cripple it) and is highly rewarding with the right predictions, such as predicting a Dnite switch in and either ohkoing it with Ice Beam or weakening it with a Flame Orb.

Be careful to to use switcheroo at the right moment, you usually only get one opportunity to trick it on to something.

Greninja @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Switcheroo
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam/Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse

 

[Gwanian]

Flare Boost Greninja is fun to use, it outspeeds and cripples Iron Leaves and Roaring Moon, limits Corv's potential (but does not cripple it) and is highly rewarding with the right predictions, such as predicting a Dnite switch in and either ohkoing it with Ice Beam or weakening it with a Flame Orb.

Be careful to to use switcheroo at the right moment, you usually only get one opportunity to trick it on to something.

Greninja @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Switcheroo
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam/Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse

I did the calcs wrong lol; deleted my last post. Flare boost does have a greater output than beads of ruin (as opposed to what I said previously). I still believe that beads of ruin is better, as it doesn’t have a 1-turn startup + item requirement + self-status. Beads of ruin + specs/lorb is still going to give you more damage output as well, without wearing you down on pivots. Specs can also be used for trick strats, and I believe it’s a lot more valuable to lock a bulky mon into a move than to burn them.

To approach this from another angle, flare boost + flame orb gives the same boost as just running choice specs, except the latter still has an ability slot freed up.

Clacs (but I did them right this time)

252 SpA Beads of Ruin Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 118-141 (16.5 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Flare Boost Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 135-159 (18.9 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Beads of Ruin Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- 1.1% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 178-210 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

 

[ShuckleNamedJack]

I did the calcs wrong lol; deleted my last post. Flare boost does have a greater output than beads of ruin (as opposed to what I said previously). I still believe that beads of ruin is better, as it doesn’t have a 1-turn startup + item requirement + self-status. Beads of ruin + specs/lorb is still going to give you more damage output as well, without wearing you down on pivots. Specs can also be used for trick strats, and I believe it’s a lot more valuable to lock a bulky mon into a move than to burn them.

To approach this from another angle, flare boost + flame orb gives the same boost as just running choice specs, except the latter still has an ability slot freed up.

Clacs (but I did them right this time)

252 SpA Beads of Ruin Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 118-141 (16.5 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Flare Boost Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 135-159 (18.9 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Beads of Ruin Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- 1.1% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 178-210 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

Thank you for the comparison! The reason I run flare boost is so I'm not locked into a slot, and I usually also run support Scream Tail with Wish and Regenerator to keep Greninja and whatever else is on the team at least somewhat healthy, usually MGLO Volcarona and BoR Hydreigon.

This is a rough draft of a team I made using FB Greninja, haven't gotten around to using it though.

Flare Boost Greninja + MGLO Volc BO

Greninja @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Switcheroo
- Water Shuriken/Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam/U-Turn
- Dark Pulse

Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wish
- Thunder Wave
- Play Rough
- Stealth Rock

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn/Earth Power
- Flash Cannon

Roaring Moon @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Scale Shot
- Bite
- Metal Claw
- Dragon Dance

Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain/Bug Buzz
- Psychic

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog
- Iron Head

I've also been experimenting with Technician RM, Scale Shot is incredibly busted with Loaded Dice. Anyways, thanks for the advice!

 

[Hera]

Out of money tour, wasn't my best performance but overall fun. Just here to share some quick thoughts on things.


Still not exactly sure why this hasn't been banned yet. Answers are few and not that plentiful, and every time a check becomes more common (ex: RegenVest Roaring Moon), it simply pulls something out of its hat of tricks to hit it (ex: Dazzling Gleam). Yes, it has a Rocks weakness if it's not running Boots, and yes, non-DesoLand sets do have some opportunity cost, but what does that matter if something like SFLO or Hadron outspeeds and 2HKOs most of the meta? I've even seen Acid Spray sets popping up for Unaware Scream Tail and the other RevenVest Dragons, so it's only a matter of time IMO before those get fucked as well. Pretty much the only thing that can consistently counter it is WBB Kingambit, which hates the prevalence of Spikes rn + wants 3 other abilities to check other things. It seems to me that Iron Moth is much too powerful for too little opportunity cost for it to be balanced.


The best Zoroark switch-in is itself. That kinda just speaks volumes to how busted it is. It's similar to Iron Moth in that it's a SFLO breaker with a pretty good speed tier, except it doesn't have a Rocks weakness, it has less bulk, and it can go mixed/physical because fuck you. Between SFLO and Guts sets, there really isn't any consistent counterplay beyond proactive play, out-offensing it, or prepping for both sets (the last one isn't hard but considering you can't do this with just one mon, it's quite constraining in builder). It also has the same way around its switch-ins that Iron Moth does: NP Icy Wind for RegenVest Chomp, Knock on SFLO sets for other RegenVesters, Brick Break for even Bulletproof Kingambit, etc. Also if that wasn't enough it also gets U-turn, so now you have a fast MGLO pivot if you so desire.


Ngl I mega slept on this mon but to be fair people were only using the bad sets for a while. LO SD and Band are still uber bad and really not worth using when Cinderace is right there, it's the Boots SD sets that trouble me more.

Set

HES ON FIRE (Ceruledge) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land / Turboblaze
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat

So when I was thinking of ways to defensively beat this, my brain ran through a few options. Rather than analyze why this mon is broken, I find it more interesting to simply list them.

-You can't chip it down because Boots + Bitter Blade heals you back
-You can't revenge kill it without a Ghost resist because +2 Shadow Sneak goes brrrr
-You can't switch in a Ghost resist because Close Combat goes brrrr
-You can't give it a free turn because a +2 Ceruledge is infinitely scarier than a +0 Ceruledge, since it not only increases its damage output but also the amount it heals from Bitter Blade
-The best Fire immunity, Corviknight, cannot switch in as a +2 CC outright 2HKOs after Rocks, and Brave Bird can't OHKO a -1 Ceruledge unless it has taken serious chip (which, as explained about, isn't exactly a thing Ceruledge will have to begin with). Rocky Helmet helps but it's not difficult for Ceruledge to find another opportunity to break, given it effectively has 3 immunities to common types
-You can't go Unaware mons because it can just go Turboblaze, which sacrifices Bitter Blade power and checking Quaquaval for fucking over your Scream Tail as well as your off-brand Fire immunities that resist Fighting
-And finally, to illustrate how powerful it is, I sent a PhyDef Earthquake Torkoal in to counter this Ceruledge set. It was at +2 because I gave it a free turn because of a double by my opponent. It 1v1ed my physically defensive Fire resist with 70/140 physical bulk AND a move to hit it super effectively, forced out Torkoal at low health, took down another mon, and then switched out at near full health when I brought my Torkoal in again.

Of course, it's not like there isn't offensive counterplay; there are quite a few offensive Ghost resists/+2 or greater priority users in the tier, and none of them are difficult to fit on teams. Garchomp is also quite threatening, as it has Regen, lives any +2 hit, and always OHKOs back with Quake or Edge. But something with purely offensive counterplay isn't balanced imo. There's having a good MU vs defensive teams, and then there's feasting on them like they're an all-you-can-eat buffet unless you run the one mon that can counter it.


The rest of these are mons I've struggled to find counterplay for that isn't niche/specific/only fits on a few teams. Not all of these are the same level of broken, and not all of them are broken to begin with (contrary to what UT would have you think, Talonflame kinda sucks), but all of them don't have a lot of answers either. Lucario, Gengar, and Dragonite should be obvious to anyone who's played the tier, but Kingambit and Scream Tail will confuse a few people. Kingambit is currently holding the tier together imo because it's valuable glue like Gholdengo, but it's also a bulky and strong setup sweeper that punishes you for trying to scout its ability and guessing wrong, just like Gholdengo. It's slower, lacks recovery, and has a consistent weakness it can't overcome with the right ability (although Bulletproof sets do try), but I would not be surprised if Kingambit becomes an issue down the line. Scream Tail, on the other hand, is an annoyingly bulky piece of shit that can 1v1 almost every defensive mon in the game. Unaware means you can't simply boost past it without revealing that you're countering it, it resists Stored Power so other boosting strats don't work, and it doesn't care all that much about Salt Cure, especially if it runs Covert Cloak. You have to use one of the few Toxic mons or Poison-types in the tier to deal with it, or run the equally problematic Kingambit with just enough Attack to 2HKO Scream Tail after Lefties and Tect. People may only be running this because Dragonite but I think it's still quite strong on its own.





Honestly, I kinda feel like we're approaching a Gen 8 situation where there are just too many breakers to realistically be expected to prep for. It's nowhere near as bad as the whole "there are 15+ breakers that 6-0 you unless you use one of their 2-3 answers on a team where you have 4 slots to dedicate to defensive mons" thing that makes teambuilding in Gen 8 an absolute nightmare. But I'm starting to feel the same frustration akin to that of Gen 8, the same feeling where there's quite a lot of matchupy shit to deal with but not enough slots to handle it. Teambuilding is all about making the most with the limited amount of options you have, but it's starting to feel a bit much. Luckily, most of council has experienced Gen 8 first-hand and is most likely making sure that the issue that befell Gen 8 isn't going to happen to gen 9, like the Dragonite suspect and quickban slates happening more often, even if I don't always agree with their outcomes (houndstone moment). Even with some constraining factors, I still enjoy building and seeing how fast the meta have developed ever since the money tour started.

 

[Giagantic]

Team Drop, incoming! Brought an alt that was like 66 GXE to 77 GXE and top 10 as of this post if you want proof as to if it is good (I could just be in the mood for battling, it happens to me) then here it is... Thought about climbing to the top but... there is almost 200 elo gap between my position and QT... and I gain 6 elo per match on average... YEAH, no thanks...

​

Anyways, here is the team:
^ Team Here ^

Slither Wing @ Choice Band Ability: Tinted Lens Tera Type: Bug EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - First Impression - U-turn - Close Combat - Flare Blitz A stupidly powerful Pokemon with few, if any counterplay outside of scouting then responding to it. Corviknight, nope, just scout it's ability and respond with CC or Flare at the next opportunity.	Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet Ability: Volt Absorb Tera Type: Flying EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD Impish Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Body Press - Iron Defense - Defog - Roost Relatively standard for a non-pivot Corviknight. Let's it beat Dragonite's that aren't running fire coverage whilst acting as a potential bulky sweeper if given the chance. Volt Absorb was chosen to let it act as a counter to Sandy Shocks as well.	Dondozo @ Leftovers Ability: Magic Guard Tera Type: Water EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def Impish Nature - Wave Crash - Earthquake - Curse - Rest Magic Guard Dondozo is great at absorbing the annoyingly prevalent corrosion Pokemon's like Toxapex and forcing them out. It is also great at taking on a wide variety of physical threats and using them to setup and potentially sweep.
Tinkaton (F) @ Leftovers Ability: Regenerator Tera Type: Fairy EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Careful Nature - Gigaton Hammer - Knock Off - Thunder Wave - Stealth Rock Tinkaton can tank a decent amount of special hits and provides a great deal of utility with Knock Off, hazards, and status. Gigaton Hammer is ran so it can appropriately harass Scream Tail among other things.	Garganacl @ Leftovers Ability: Vessel of Ruin Tera Type: Rock EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD Careful Nature - Salt Cure - Body Press - Iron Defense - Recover Standard Garg, let's absorb quite a bit of special hits and potentially sweep later on in the game. It is a great pokemon that can harass and chip the opponent for much of the game to make progress though watch out for Covert Cloak, it is becoming increasingly popular.	Iron Moth @ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Desolate Land Tera Type: Fire EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Fiery Dance - Discharge - U-turn - Morning Sun Standard Desolate Land Iron Moth using fire and electric to threaten a wide-range of the meta and pivoting when all else fails. It also can act as a check to Water Pokemon like Greninja or Killiowattrel which could threaten the team if given enough leeway.

The game plan is generally lead with the appropriate Pokemon usually Tinkaton or Slither Wing, the former to setup hazards or status, the latter to scare off and pivot or heavily damage pretty much anything. Slither Wing is great at softening up or even outright KO'ing much of a team whilst pivoting when it can't, this helps transition the game to the point where you can use one of the bulky setup Pokemon (Corv, Garg, Dozo) to heavily pressure the opponent and hopefully score a victory. As I previously said, often times Slither wins out right due to being nigh unwallable but there are various matchups that are difficult (often because they are always difficult).

Bad Matchups:
-Other Slither Wings
-Sheer Force Iron Moth
-Hisuian-Zoroark
-Gengar

But even for the bad matchups, there is usually means to play around or at least pressure the opponent.

Enjoy.

 

[Isaiah]

One of the concerns raised during the FurScales suspect test was that whether or not you think Fur Coat and Ice Scales are broken, removing them wouldn't just handle bulky setup--the resulting metagame would definitely be strapped for defensive counterplay to things (in particular, my gripe is with special attackers, but I won't write that essay here). I don't think there's much denying how true this is, and you can look at Heracross's post as an example lmao.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having double Regenerator (and other abilities) and I was obviously in the camp that was fine with 2AC, but our surveys so far have generally shown that people tend to be against returning to 2 Ability Clause, so that'll probably be a tough sell.

But the real question is, to what extent should we do something about it? Like yeah sure, Iron Moth is a nuisance, but how many teams are you really building without at least considering Garchomp, or some combination of Fire/Electric resists in general? If we ban Iron Moth, will those offensive/defensive elements suddenly stop seeing use? I would hope not. Talonflame is annoying, but does that really matter when almost 30% of Corviknight (which has 70% usage btw) are Well-Baked Body? Same with Ceruledge--not to mention that stuff like Dondozo, Garchomp, etc. handles it just fine. And then you have Pokemon like Lucario, which naturally has the STAB moves and coverage to blow up just about anything--but I don't think anyone is seriously lobbying for a Lucario ban.

Genuinely? I don't understand the "there are too many breakers to realistically prep for" side of things. Isn't that just any tier? I'd love to be pointed to one where every viable wallbreaker (or just threat in general, I suppose) has solid counterplay that you can put on every team, every time. If that exists, then maybe we should use that as our model for balancing AAA. I complain about stuff being broken in the OM Discord all the time LOL, but I don't actually want to go around banning everything--usually, most of these things can be handled or played around with a reasonable team. Otherwise, sometimes you'll run into stuff you can't beat--that's just inevitable, and as someone whose teambuilding method involves a lot of brute forcing unideal teams on the ladder and making tweaks afterwards, I experience this myself very often. It doesn't necessarily mean the metagame isn't competitive or relatively balanced.

So yeah, there's my take I suppose: I'd rather add things to the tier (such as 2AC or Ice Scales, for example) than continue down this slope of banning things in bursts of activity.

E: I just realized that this might seem like an April Fool's post, but it's a serious take LOL, this is real.

 

[ToluTTT]

Am I the only one that feels the need to run Magic Guard on every team for Corrosion Toxic? Unless I'm missing something, that seems to be its only counter

 

[Isaiah]

Am I the only one that feels the need to run Magic Guard on every team for Corrosion Toxic? Unless I'm missing something, that seems to be its only counter

Usually this is where someone writes an essay about all of the cool counterplay you're forgetting about, but uhhh...yup. Magic Guard is going to be as good as it gets for hard counterplay to Corrosion. You can also consider stuff like Rest + Natural Cure (Garchomp's a kinda viable one) and other tactics like Purifying Salt and using Rest in general (e.g. Dondozo), but otherwise beating Corrosion builds is typically going to come down to whether or not you're able to win before your team gets corroded to nothing, typically on the back of your regen user.

 

[ToluTTT]

For my second ever post on this Smogon (after lurking for months) I am proud to inform you that pawmot is a DEMON.

Pawmot @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Close Combat
- Double Shock

The majority of AAA teams simply have nothing that can counter this set. Dondozo, Corv, Chomp, Toxapex, Scream Tail and other defensive mons either take super effective or massive neutral damage.
Life Orb and the prevalence of Rocky Helmet means that it can be worn down, but it's going to open a lot of holes for teammates before it goes down.

 

[Gwanian]

For my second ever post on this Smogon (after lurking for months) I am proud to inform you that pawmot is a DEMON.

Pawmot @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Close Combat
- Double Shock

The majority of AAA teams simply have nothing that can counter this set. Dondozo, Corv, Chomp, Toxapex, Scream Tail and other defensive mons either take super effective or massive neutral damage.
Life Orb and the prevalence of Rocky Helmet means that it can be worn down, but it's going to open a lot of holes for teammates before it goes down.

Unless you’re running it on something else, sword of ruin is going to be more beneficial than tough claws; ofc it’s ohkoing things any way you slice it though.

 

[ToluTTT]

Unless you’re running it on something else, sword of ruin is going to be more beneficial than tough claws; ofc it’s ohkoing things any way you slice it though.

Is sword of ruin's defense reduction just straight up more than TC's power boost?

 

[Gwanian]

Is sword of ruin's defense reduction just straight up more than TC's power boost?

Yup. The only time though claws would be the best choice (in a vacuum) is against another SoR mon that also resists both stabs/is 4x weak to a coverage move (otherwise adaptability is the best choice against the mon; the second point doesn’t really matter that much anyway, as most 4x weaks are ohkos with coverage no matter what).

Personally, haven’t run into many sword of ruin Palosands on ladder so I think it’s safe to say that this isn’t a very realistic situation.

 

[DarkenedCovenant]

I've seen things on the ladder, by that I mean Toxic Debris
Toxic Debris is an ability that deploys 1 layer of Toxic Spikes when hit with a contact move. I haven't seen any very specific pokemon run toxic debris; Well mainly because it's a surprise factor unless they would know not to hit you with physical moves making your ability redundant. I haven't seen people running toxic debris on many pokemon, but some pokemon I have seen are...
Hazard Setting Garchomp and Dragapult (Banned though, lmao). I couldddd turn this into a Garchomp Utility focus, but I believe Toxic Debris is... an ability.
The issue is... no pokemon has been outright made for this. This ability requires something to purposely take a hit, from specifically a contact move. There may be a chance the opponent just doesn't attack and switches into a different pokemon with no contact moves. Most contact moves are physical, so you need a bulky wall that can still take a physical attack and add utility to that turn and make sure hazard removal doesn't happen. It should also have a good move against poison a switch-in.
Now your first thought might be something like clodsire, but I think a different niche is in order.
Introducing... Palossand!!!

Palossand @ Leftovers/Colbur Berry/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Hex
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock

You can also run an assault vest set for non-contact moves

Assault Vest

Palossand @ Assault Vest
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
- Earth Power
- Hex
- Sand Tomb
- Energy Ball / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb

This is the best thing I could come up with. I mean I haven't even seen Palossand being mentioned since Poison Heal. The Ghost typing helps with outright rapid spins and the opponent will probably not have toxic debris as their first thought. It's still palossand and it could have a slight niche. However, at the end of the day, nobody really uses toxic spikes.

 

[Gwanian]

Debris is all physical moves iirc, so somewhat more annoying. Other than that yeah taking hits requires reliable recovery and most mons that’d like debris don’t have reliable recovery from what I can tell. I won’t argue with a palo niche tho - it’s typing lets it wall the aforementioned pawmont (although that’s about it; ig regenvest could work against sshocks but it’s outclassed in those regards).

 

[Talpr0ne]

Unless you’re running it on something else, sword of ruin is going to be more beneficial than tough claws; ofc it’s ohkoing things any way you slice it though.

Is sword of ruin's defense reduction just straight up more than TC's power boost?

Tough Claws has a multiplier of 1.30, while Sword of Ruin has a effective multiplier of 1.33333...., which would make it marginally stronger (you can only really perceive it on already very strong hits).

The obvious upside of Sword of Ruin is that it is universal and as such can boost several moves such as Ice Shard and Earthquake. However, it has one big downside, that is it announces itself, which makes it significantly easier for the opponent to scout you. Coupled with more minor downsides like not working against other SoR Pokémon or taking the SoR slot I think its use on sets that only have contact moves anyway like this proposed Pawmot set is hard to justify.

 

[Gwanian]

Tough Claws has a multiplier of 1.30, while Sword of Ruin has a effective multiplier of 1.33333...., which would make it marginally stronger (you can only really perceive it on already very strong hits).

The obvious upside of Sword of Ruin is that it is universal and as such can boost several moves such as Ice Shard and Earthquake. However, it has one big downside, that is it announces itself, which makes it significantly easier for the opponent to scout you. Coupled with more minor downsides like not working against other SoR Pokémon or taking the SoR slot I think its use on sets that only have contact moves anyway like this proposed Pawmot set is hard to justify.

The thing is the majority of the time fully offensive mons are assumed to have offensive abilities. The only defensive abilities I can think of that work well on primarily offensive mons are sometimes fluffy, magic guard, dazzling, and sometimes immunities (I have definitely forgotten some tho), all of which have far better users than pawmont. If the mon isn’t going to be able to bluff abilities in the first place, SoR is better so long as you don’t have another physical attacker w/o contact moves that also would like the ability. Only some teams will have room for multiple strong physical attackers anyways, and sometimes those strong physical attackers may like running other abilities as well.

 

[cjw405]

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam / Flamethrower
- Roost

I didn't originate sflo dnite but wanted to share my own set

Alright corviknight tends to be annoying when it blanket checks almost every physical attacker so why not abuse that with a physical attacker turned into special. This dragonite set helps to lure and destroy opposing corviknight and dondozo for physical attackers like roaring moon that struggle against them. Ice beam deals with garchomp and flamethrower helps with tinkaton, volt absorb corviknight, and iron treads. This set requires you to play carefully as once they figure out your set they likely wont send in their corviknight in against you. It is also heavily walled by blissey and vessel of ruin florges. The lack of extreme speed also means that chien pao and meowscarada can pick you off.

Might as well make this before dnite goes bye bye.

(P.S. 12 speed is for 0 speed slither wing but not like it matters.)

 

[Gwanian]

I'd like to shine some light onto an unorthodox Slither Wing set I've been using recently:



Slither Wing @ Choice Band
Ability: Long Reach
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Earthquake

Tinted Lens sets have already proven that SWing doesn't need a universal boosting ability to pick up kos. Long Reach is an extension of that idea that focuses on its matchup against the common defensive switch-in that is Corv. This set primarily helps you maintain momentum with U-Turn while dodging Rocky Helmet chip and a potential Flame Body proc (if Flame Body Corv is still even a thing); bypassing Fluffy sets is also a convenient upside to have.

As for how it compares to Magic Guard, MG is a better option if you aren't worried about Flame Body/Fluffy and don't have another mon taking up the MG slot on the team. Both have their merits (But MG is better 90% of the time; truth be told I forgot about MG until after writing the main body of the post lol).

 

[Isaiah]

If you didn't know, Dragonite is now banned by suspect test!

 

[Blitz]

Exclusive look at the next council slate:

 

[Hera]

One of the concerns raised during the FurScales suspect test was that whether or not you think Fur Coat and Ice Scales are broken, removing them wouldn't just handle bulky setup--the resulting metagame would definitely be strapped for defensive counterplay to things (in particular, my gripe is with special attackers, but I won't write that essay here). I don't think there's much denying how true this is, and you can look at Heracross's post as an example lmao.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having double Regenerator (and other abilities) and I was obviously in the camp that was fine with 2AC, but our surveys so far have generally shown that people tend to be against returning to 2 Ability Clause, so that'll probably be a tough sell.

But the real question is, to what extent should we do something about it? Like yeah sure, Iron Moth is a nuisance, but how many teams are you really building without at least considering Garchomp, or some combination of Fire/Electric resists in general? If we ban Iron Moth, will those offensive/defensive elements suddenly stop seeing use? I would hope not. Talonflame is annoying, but does that really matter when almost 30% of Corviknight (which has 70% usage btw) are Well-Baked Body? Same with Ceruledge--not to mention that stuff like Dondozo, Garchomp, etc. handles it just fine. And then you have Pokemon like Lucario, which naturally has the STAB moves and coverage to blow up just about anything--but I don't think anyone is seriously lobbying for a Lucario ban.

Genuinely? I don't understand the "there are too many breakers to realistically prep for" side of things. Isn't that just any tier? I'd love to be pointed to one where every viable wallbreaker (or just threat in general, I suppose) has solid counterplay that you can put on every team, every time. If that exists, then maybe we should use that as our model for balancing AAA. I complain about stuff being broken in the OM Discord all the time LOL, but I don't actually want to go around banning everything--usually, most of these things can be handled or played around with a reasonable team. Otherwise, sometimes you'll run into stuff you can't beat--that's just inevitable, and as someone whose teambuilding method involves a lot of brute forcing unideal teams on the ladder and making tweaks afterwards, I experience this myself very often. It doesn't necessarily mean the metagame isn't competitive or relatively balanced.

So yeah, there's my take I suppose: I'd rather add things to the tier (such as 2AC or Ice Scales, for example) than continue down this slope of banning things in bursts of activity.

E: I just realized that this might seem like an April Fool's post, but it's a serious take LOL, this is real.

So I've been meaning to respond to this for a bit because multiple parts of this post were in direct reference towards me and my post. I have nothing negative to say, I would just like to clarify a few things.

Firstly, I don't actually believe all the mons I listed are ultra-mega-stupidly broken or anything, it's just that talking in hyperbole is a lot more fun. It's like how I say we should unban Magnet Pull; I don't actually mean it (well past the first time I advocated for it), but it's funnier if it looks like I do. If you want my non-exaggerated opinion on all the mons I listed, it would be to quickban Zoro-H and Lucario (two really stupid mons with tons of ways around their standard counterplay and offer very little positive value), suspect test Iron Moth (because it's generally agreed to be at least the second strongest special threat in the tier, if not the first, and an issue regardless), and then just keep an eye on the rest.

Secondly, I agree that we should be adding things to the tier at a certain point instead of removing things. I have voted in favor of reintroducing 2AC and Magic Bounce in every single survey that's taken place up to this point, and I believe that their reintroduction would be a net positive and help tackle the issues with powerful special attackers and a lack of removal, respectively. I am very wary of Ice Scales being reintroduced because of how strong bulky setup was with it around, but it may end up being a necessary evil if special attackers get too out of hand.

Thirdly, I also think we should consider some blanket special nerf if adding things like 2AC and Ice Scales aren't options. Special attackers in general are really strong this gen because some smart guy at Gamefreak decided to nerf all recovery PP, gut the blobs, and remove all the slow pivoters with the only options being shit like RegenVest Slither Wing (which is actually not as bad as you would think but still unideal compared to last gen). I don't think there really is a consistent special wall with pivoting like there was last gen, and combined with Hadron Engine, Beads Of Ruin, and multiple SFLO users, there also isn't a singular aspect that can be tackled. This might sound weird but I think we might end up having to ban all of these abilities if Home doesn't improve things substantially; if you only take one or two abilities away, special attackers will simply replicate the same big numbers with the leftover one(s), and the problem is not solved. I think Sheer Force would be the first to go in this hypothetical because it doesn't announce itself like the other two do, but realistically most of the viable SFLO users can use another ability and replicate the effect near perfectly, even if the set announces itself.

Finally, I never did say that there were "too many breakers to realistically prep for", just that I kinda felt like things were starting to approach that. If I had to gauge it I'd say we're like 25% of the way there, as in the pressure is starting to be felt but it's still far away from what Gen 8 had. Even during FurScales meta this tier was still 10x more enjoyable than the end of Gen 8 and honestly, that's all I'm asking for. I'd argue that a small strain on teambuilding is actually a good thing, as that forces creativity when teambuilding; if there was no strain, you could just choose the most viable sets for a handful of mons and win, which isn't bad or uncompetitive but much less interesting imo. I think the current strain on teambuilding is a bit too high than my personal ideal but that's not something that's impossible to fix.

So basically we should quickban Zoro-H and Lucario, suspect Iron Moth, then do something, literally anything, about special attackers. also we should unban Magnet Pull guys it's a totally balanced ability

 

[Siamato]

Genuinely? I don't understand the "there are too many breakers to realistically prep for" side of things. Isn't that just any tier? I'd love to be pointed to one where every viable wallbreaker (or just threat in general, I suppose) has solid counterplay that you can put on every team, every time. If that exists, then maybe we should use that as our model for balancing AAA. I complain about stuff being broken in the OM Discord all the time LOL, but I don't actually want to go around banning everything--usually, most of these things can be handled or played around with a reasonable team. Otherwise, sometimes you'll run into stuff you can't beat--that's just inevitable, and as someone whose teambuilding method involves a lot of brute forcing unideal teams on the ladder and making tweaks afterwards, I experience this myself very often. It doesn't necessarily mean the metagame isn't competitive or relatively balanced.

I guess I have to answer considering you're explicitely quoting a line (see my suspect test's post) I also used. So what do I (not Heracross2.0) mean by "there are still too many offensive threats to deal with"?

First, yeah, obviously, in every metagames, you can't realistically prep for everything. That's just the game we're playing with these many options. The point is not there.

It's about being able to understand why Iron Bundle was broken but, let's say, Glaceon, is not. Both lack switch-ins after all and it's extremely hard to take them into account while building without ending up playing suboptimal things that you weren't going to use otherwise.

It's a matter of cost. Put Iron Bundle on a team provided speed control, weather control and fast pivot in additon to its "first role", breaker. It was way more easier to make Iron Bundle work thanks to its insane speed and the cost was extremely low because it managed to fullfil other roles to help its partners. We definitely can't say the same about Glaceon. Its role is only breaking and it's particularly hard to enter due to hazards, lack of defensive utility (more a defensive burden than anything else) and its bad speed.
So if you want to abuse Glaceon's raw power capable to break many common defensive cores, you have to pay a price. That's what makes Glaceon perfectly fine even though, its breaking abilities are crazy with regards to commonly used defensive cores.

The same aplies for mon like Lucario to another degree. Lucario is an exteremely good breaker but provides almost no defensive utility and its mid speed means many things are able to revenge kill it or prevent it to come. Against Bulky Offense teams or more offensive style, Lucario will sometimes be a burden due to these negative aspects whereas it will destroy many common defensive cores played by balanced, fat and stall teams. Lucario is the kind of mon "unbalanced" in the sense that its effectiveness depends on the opponent teamstyle. There's again a non-negligble price to pay to use it and what's make it balanced to me (not mentionning you also have to make the right play for Lucario to break). However I understand arguments explaining this mon could be too much and close to the broken territory even though they come from fat player, playstyle that tends to be weak to Lucario ofc.

Now when we talk about Gengar and Zoroark-Hisui, things are not that clear anymore. Those mons are extremely effective at breaking common defensive cores but they're also quite fast meaning offensive counterplay is also limited. The price to pay is their extremely bad bulk (even though both have some defensive utility thanks to Fighting immunity for instance). Now, does the interest exceed the cost or the opposite? Debatable.
A positive answer to this question will not make these 2 brokens anyway. But it's a criterion that, combined to other such as restrictiveness in the teambuilder for instance, can lead to think these mons are too much and should go.

Iron Moth is another beast because its offers defensive utility. This can be seen as a positive value for the metagame but a negative value for the healthyness of the mon itself with a more unbalanced ability/cost ratio.

Not mentionning Dragonite because it may have been banned in the meantime (edit: it has been).

But overall, I don't think they're many people who think these mons are perfectly fine and why support for a serious discussion or suspect test about them will maybe rise in the future. The conclusion is thus, by "there are still too many threats to realistically prep for", I mean: "there are still too many restrictive threats with low cost to realistically prep for". You can take them into account but they require really specific options defensively that are big restrictions and that can easily lead to create other weaknesses. Don't get me wrong, even though I do see some elements as problematic, I believe the metagame is in a quite enjoyable and competitive state right now; especially with Dragonite's ban freeing more offensive counterplay!

One of the concerns raised during the FurScales suspect test was that whether or not you think Fur Coat and Ice Scales are broken, removing them wouldn't just handle bulky setup--the resulting metagame would definitely be strapped for defensive counterplay to things (in particular, my gripe is with special attackers, but I won't write that essay here). I don't think there's much denying how true this is, and you can look at Heracross's post as an example lmao.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having double Regenerator (and other abilities) and I was obviously in the camp that was fine with 2AC, but our surveys so far have generally shown that people tend to be against returning to 2 Ability Clause, so that'll probably be a tough sell.

But the real question is, to what extent should we do something about it? Like yeah sure, Iron Moth is a nuisance, but how many teams are you really building without at least considering Garchomp, or some combination of Fire/Electric resists in general? If we ban Iron Moth, will those offensive/defensive elements suddenly stop seeing use? I would hope not. Talonflame is annoying, but does that really matter when almost 30% of Corviknight (which has 70% usage btw) are Well-Baked Body? Same with Ceruledge--not to mention that stuff like Dondozo, Garchomp, etc. handles it just fine. And then you have Pokemon like Lucario, which naturally has the STAB moves and coverage to blow up just about anything--but I don't think anyone is seriously lobbying for a Lucario ban.

Another point you raised in your post in that, the metagame would currently be a bad (or not great) state due to lack of defensive counterplay? Backed up by Heracross's 2.0's post saying they're too many breakers to deal with and this is not good.

I think this opinion has a great chance of being biased due to an overly defensive approach of teambuilding ngl. Ofc, if you're trying to cover the whole metagame, you will reach the conclusion that you're lacking defensive options (even though it's impossible to cover everything anw). MU (match-up) is a part of the game we're playing but obviously, if you're playing team based on Garganacl + Corvknight + Scream Tail + defensive Garchomp/Ting-Lu, you should not be surprised to be somehow weak to Lucario. The same goes for people running Bulky Offense teams thinking Fluffy Corviknight will be enough to deal with Dragonite.
Building is not about dealing with everything (or as many things as we can) defensively. It's about managing the MU you will encounter and choose things against you will have more or less difficulties to manage. If something is breaking your defensive core but you want to keep a dynamic playstyle for the team to work and not relying to another defensive mon, then you should think to possibilies to play around with offensive counterplay for instance.
It can take the form of Speed EVs on AV Roaring Moon to potentially kill Lucario with EQ before being killed. If you have trouble dealing with MGLO BU Talonflame defensively, then maybe a classic WBB Corviknight is sufficient as long as you bring a Scarfer like Rotom-W, Sandy Shocks, Hydreigon, etc? Your core explodes to boosted 3 atk + CM LO Pixi Scream Tail? Then you should at least prevent it to sweep with a MGLO Talonflame being able to win the 1v1 against a Scream Tail at +1 or a Band SoR Meowscarada killing with small chips.

So yes, they're many (hopefully not too many) things to take into account in the builder that are quite restrictive de facto (but that's for any metagame really) but hopefully we also have sufficient defensive counterplay paired with offensive one. If something starts to be too restrictive or becomes broken then we know what to do to, open the way to a ban.

So yeah, there's my take I suppose: I'd rather add things to the tier (such as 2AC or Ice Scales, for example) than continue down this slope of banning things in bursts of activity.

E: I just realized that this might seem like an April Fool's post, but it's a serious take LOL, this is real.

It would have been funnier if it was a joke lol.

This feeling about the current state of the metagame being "strapped for defensive counterplay" doesn't reflect my opinion. I think we finally reached a quite enjoyable, balanced and competitive metagame (to me at least) where we obviously have defining meta threats but also room for enough creativity. Where this feeling comes from? The metagame I see through ladder and replays of tournament doesn't reflect a lack of defensive options tbh; especially considering many people are running fat teams with success. Now, hopefully we have mon like Lucario, Gardevoir, etc with limited defensive counterplay able to punish fat teams making them "balanced". Otherwise we're all going to play fat teams and yeah the metagame will propably become more annoying and less popular.

The return of 2AC will be a disaster again for the fun. I seriously don't want to deal with Regecore like Garchomp + Scream Tail, or Ting-Lu + Tinkaton or Dondozo + Roaring Moon. We managed to reach a pretty satisfying state in terms of fun with overall not too long and quite dynamics games, 2AC will remove that completely with the possibility to nullify progress so easily thanks to Regecore. And again, it's a fiction to think we lack defensive counterplay especially when we see the success of fat teams. You should however accept the impossibility to cover everything defensively and the dependence on the MU.
The AAA community is also mostly opposed to 2AC as shown during the survey.

Ice Scales has been banned through a suspect test due to how stupid this ability could be, especially when paired to setup. Things have changed since then with probably less setup abusers (although we will find new ones dw) but also less (or less broken at least) special threats that could have justified to let such unbalanced ability in the metagame. Overall, my take is that free Ice Scales will be a clear negative addition to the metagame.

TL;DR: There are indeed many threats but overall there are enough options to cover most of them decently with both defensive and offensive counterplay. Exceptions being maybe Gengar, H-Zoro, Iron Moth and Dragonite that could end up being too much but otherwise things look pretty fine. We're not lacking defensive options. 2AC or Ice Scales no thanks really it will definitely lead to a worst metagame.

 

[cjw405]

Kingimmick (Kingambit) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 17 Spe
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Metal Burst

Let me introduce you to metal burst kingambit which takes hits and fires them back only to regen said hits later. This can be used against non boosting body press corviknight, non specs sandy shocks, roaring moon, etc. It can be used as a lead to surprise other leads like sandy shocks and meowscarada with a devastating metal burst. First issue is that it takes up your regenerator slot so that other things can't use it. Second issue is that the moment you use metal burst it is no longer hidden so use surprise factor effectively! Third issue is that pokemon like donphan and iron treads like to use knock off instead of earthquake predicting you to swap.

Note: I got some experience using the set but not the most experience.


17 ivs allow you to underspeed level 99 corv
What evs are for:

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Kingambit: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Isaiah]

I wanted a team that fulfills two requirements:
1) Uses Offensive Tatsugiri
2) Crams as many sheer damage amp abilities as possible onto said team

Here's what I pieced together:


The Masquerain is ripped directly from Quantum Tesseract's webs teams and is pretty nice at actually threatening stuff outside of throwing up webs, and the rest of the team is literally just what it looks like at face value. Get in, try and click buttons, go next--and hopefully, Gyarados can clean. Enjoy :P

"How do you beat [insert here]?" Dunno, that's not my problem LOL I just wanted a fun team. If something doesn't work, feel free to change it (or leave the team in the trash)

E: The Lucario being Steel Beam isn't a mistake. The idea is to use it to self-KO if needed while still being an ansburdly powerful move.