Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[pika pal]

Honestly, I could see it going both ways for Lando. Losing transfer moves is a massive blow to it since it was one of the best users of Toxic and Knock Off, but on the flipside, many of its sets were largely hampered by other users of those moves too. I think boosting sets like Bulk Up will be in a much better spot since they won't be on a timer as much as before. Heck, I could see Calm Mind or special sets being good in this Meta to lure in Dondozo and Tusks w/ Grass Knot lol. Sludge Bomb could work as a pseudo utility option too to fish for poisons, albeit not as reliably as Toxic.

Special Lando-T I almost wonder about the overall legitimacy of since he got Nasty Plot this gen. Incarnate's gonna go immediately with that on hand, but Therian might be fair with Intimidate and typing to get a Boost chance (without an impressive immediate power admittedly), plus its natural ATK being high enough to run a Physical Coverage move like Stone Edge for Volc.

It seems like a niche set but if there's one thing Lando-T is good at, it's pocketing every possible thing you can try to do with its kit as an option.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Honestly, I could see it going both ways for Lando. Losing transfer moves is a massive blow to it since it was one of the best users of Toxic and Knock Off, but on the flipside, many of its sets were largely hampered by other users of those moves too. I think boosting sets like Bulk Up will be in a much better spot since they won't be on a timer as much as before. Heck, I could see Calm Mind or special sets being good in this Meta to lure in Dondozo and Tusks w/ Grass Knot lol. Sludge Bomb could work as a pseudo utility option too to fish for poisons, albeit not as reliably as Toxic.

Idk, Lando with Bulk Up sounds like a worse Tusk since it also lost rock polish so even if it manages to set up it can be revenge killed easily. SD and NP will be the way to go for set up options.

 

[Eeveeto]

Idk, Lando with Bulk Up sounds like a worse Tusk since it also lost rock polish so even if it manages to set up it can be revenge killed easily. SD and NP will be the way to go for set up options.

I agree that Bulk Up is not the way to set up, but not for the same reason you think. Tusk after all has 6 Weaknesses, Lando has just 2, setting up is way easier vs more things. Only disadvantage is not having Spin, but Sub in theory could work vs slow teams.

However, just like I don,t like Bulk Up Tusk, I don,t think Lando will be good at it either. Dondozo stops it cold. The rest of the Unaware Mons also stop it if they Tera.
Offensive Lando should either be CM, NP, Scarf (this one will do 0 to Dondozo, but its supposed to kill offensive teams, not bulky ones) or Band. Band would have 4 options for Tera and only the first one needs to get chip to not get walled by Dondozo:
1. Tera Fly (this is the walled by Dozo).
2. Tera Ground (insane EQs, needs either Gravity or Flying Mons removed).
3. Tera Grass (lures and destroys Dondozo, works vs Rain teams too).
4. Tera Electric (GG Corviknight).

Rocks + U-Turn is probably still best set, though it will need to have some move (Psychic? Grass Knot?) for the free Tusk that will come into it. Restalk + U-Turn is another option, to be a slow pivot that checks stuff.

 

[1LDK]

we don't get transfer moves back, this generation will remain nothing more than a hyper-offense hellhole like it has been since release. "Toxic and knock off spam" is such a stupid thing to complain about

(Im in phone so sorry if bad grammar)

It depends on stuff like the move, and the level of distribution

Defog on Flying types/Pokemon with Wings/Bird like pokemon? Lets fucking gooooo

Knock off? As long as it remains on dark types or fighting types with hands sure

Toxic? On poison types and Specific mons like Quagsire? Sure

All of these 3 on a massive scale distribution? Fuck no, we just need some more variety, not another pasive agresive toxic/knock off spam like gen 8 my beloved

Edit: as you can imagine, I hate how gf doesnt have common sense in distribution, why the fuck does meow learn spikes

 

[pika pal]

Personally I think the issue with BU Lando-T is that his bulk is "fake" compared to Tusk. Tusk gets by on having ridiculously min-maxed Physical stats, whereas Lando leans on the Intimidate drop. For pivoting or hit-and-run Offensive sets like Band/Scarf, or the SpD set last Gen this works about the same, but for something like a Bulk Up set, the idea is typically to threaten something out and set-up as it leaves, correct? In Lando's case, the fact that he's 1/3 Physically Bulkier only against the thing he switches into rather than the thing switching into him will mean he is more threatened by remaining Physical attackers that will need to be handled before he tries to sweep.

In short, Lando needs to be ready to start swinging as quickly as possible on boosting sets, which favors the +2 pure offense Boosting vs Bulk Up's slower-tankier approach. A part of me wonders if Tusk would prefer SD to BU given the choice, but unlike Lando it doesn't have the choice so that's pure theorymon.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I agree that Bulk Up is not the way to set up, but not for the same reason you think. Tusk after all has 6 Weaknesses, Lando has just 2, setting up is way easier vs more things. Only disadvantage is not having Spin, but Sub in theory could work vs slow teams.

However, just like I don,t like Bulk Up Tusk, I don,t think Lando will be good at it either. Dondozo stops it cold. The rest of the Unaware Mons also stop it if they Tera.
Offensive Lando should either be CM, NP, Scarf (this one will do 0 to Dondozo, but its supposed to kill offensive teams, not bulky ones) or Band. Band would have 4 options for Tera and only the first one needs to get chip to not get walled by Dondozo:
1. Tera Fly (this is the walled by Dozo).
2. Tera Ground (insane EQs, needs either Gravity or Flying Mons removed).
3. Tera Grass (lures and destroys Dondozo, works vs Rain teams too).
4. Tera Electric (GG Corviknight).

Rocks + U-Turn is probably still best set, though it will need to have some move (Psychic? Grass Knot?) for the free Tusk that will come into it. Restalk + U-Turn is another option, to be a slow pivot that checks stuff.

The slow pivot without recovery niche is having issues this gen as we can see with Rotom's usage falling, this gen power level makes it hard to only rely on leftovers for recovery since the chip damage that the pivots are getting with the switch-ins is bigger than it was on previous gens.

All of these 3 on a massive scale distribution? Fuck no, we just need some more variety, not another pasive agresive toxic/knock off spam like gen 8 my beloved

My guess is that Game Freak is going to keep those moves limited until the dlcs but they aren't going to give them back to all the mons that use to have them in the past. It can be a double sword situation since like you mentioned even if the idea sounds good, Game Freak lack of common sense can make them give the moves to all the wrong mons and destroy the meta.

In short, Lando needs to be ready to start swinging as quickly as possible on boosting sets, which favors the +2 pure offense Boosting vs Bulk Up's slower-tankier approach. A part of me wonders if Tusk would prefer SD to BU given the choice, but unlike Lando it doesn't have the choice so that's pure theorymon.

Tusk has stab body press on its favor, combined with its stabs makes Tusk a way better user of body press. SD Tusk with booster energy giving speed boost sounds scary.

 

[Eeveeto]

(Im in phone so sorry if bad grammar)

It depends on stuff like the move, and the level of distribution

Defog on Flying types/Pokemon with Wings/Bird like pokemon? Lets fucking gooooo

Knock off? As long as it remains on dark types or fighting types with hands sure

Toxic? On poison types and Specific mons like Quagsire? Sure

All of these 3 on a massive scale distribution? Fuck no, we just need some more variety, not another pasive agresive toxic/knock off spam like gen 8 my beloved

Edit: as you can imagine, I hate how gf doesnt have common sense in distribution, why the fuck does meow learn spikes

Wholly agree with this. Its pretty cancerous that everything learned Knock and Toxic. If everyone has the same moves, it makes already good Mons even better.
I really liked Knock Off distribution in Gen 3. What Mons had the move back then? Alakazam, Hariyama, Armaldo, Banette, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, Sableye, Farfetch'd, Kingler, Lickitung. That is, 10 fully evolved Mons, none of them OU. It was a niche powerful (yes, even with 20 BP removing item was huge in Sand infested Metagame) move that required using an otherwise suboptimal Mon and build a team around that.
Completely different from SS OU, where you have the Move on any Mon. Clefable, Toxapex, Lando-T and Kartana all would have been OU even without Knock Off (unlike Weavile, who absolutely needed it to be viable and almost dominating), but with it, they are even better.

Like already said, I really like what they did this Gen, Knock Off is again limited to few Mons. Tusk would still be OU without Knock Off, but would have been way worse and isn,t opressing even with it. Iron Valiant still would be OU as well, but with one less option. Meowscarada probably would fall to UU, Zoroark Hisui is the one OU Mon that doesn,t need the move and Iron Treads at some point will probably fall to UU even with having Knock Off. Looks a pretty alright distribution, only Mon that I would add to the list is Weavile since I like that Mon a lot, but it not having Knock its a worthy sacrifice for Pex and Lando not having it.

Same for Toxic, if Zapdos and Rotom wall Tornadus-T, I want them to do it consistently, not collapsing to random Toxic turn 1. Its good for the meta to be able to see those moves ahead (due to limited distribution) instead of guessing which of the 6 Top Tier threats will throw it to what you prepared to check them.

Also, to those saying that we need more Defoggers to avoid the HO dominance, that isn,t fully true. There are 2 other options (that of course probably won,t be followed).
1. Ban Rocks + Spikes combination on the same team (similar to BW Drizzle + Swift Swim complex Ban).
2. Ban Gholdengo.

Without either of those, Hazard centric HOs, while still very viable, won,t be nearly as dominating as they are now.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Wholly agree with this. Its pretty cancerous that everything learned Knock and Toxic. If everyone has the same moves, it makes already good Mons even better.
I really liked Knock Off distribution in Gen 3. What Mons had the move back then? Alakazam, Hariyama, Armaldo, Banette, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, Sableye, Farfetch'd, Kingler, Lickitung. That is, 10 fully evolved Mons, none of them OU. It was a niche powerful (yes, even with 20 BP removing item was huge in Sand infested Metagame) move that required using an otherwise suboptimal Mon and build a team around that.
Completely different from SS OU, where you have the Move on any Mon. Clefable, Toxapex, Lando-T and Kartana all would have been OU even without Knock Off (unlike Weavile, who absolutely needed it to be viable and almost dominating), but with it, they are even better.

Like already said, I really like what they did this Gen, Knock Off is again limited to few Mons. Tusk would still be OU without Knock Off, but would have been way worse and isn,t opressing even with it. Iron Valiant still would be OU as well, but with one less option. Meowscarada probably would fall to UU, Zoroark Hisui is the one OU Mon that doesn,t need the move and Iron Treads at some point will probably fall to UU even with having Knock Off. Looks a pretty alright distribution, only Mon that I would add to the list is Weavile since I like that Mon a lot, but it not having Knock its a worthy sacrifice for Pex and Lando not having it.

Same for Toxic, if Zapdos and Rotom wall Tornadus-T, I want them to do it consistently, not collapsing to random Toxic turn 1. Its good for the meta to be able to see those moves ahead (due to limited distribution) instead of guessing which of the 6 Top Tier threats will throw it to what you prepared to check them.

Also, to those saying that we need more Defoggers to avoid the HO dominance, that isn,t fully true. There are 2 other options (that of course probably won,t be followed).
1. Ban Rocks + Spikes combination on the same team (similar to BW Drizzle + Swift Swim complex Ban).
2. Ban Gholdengo.

Without either of those, Hazard centric HOs, while still very viable, won,t be nearly as dominating as they are now.

Banning Gholdengo won't solve anything, just make Corviknight a bit better but at the same time it already suffers from 4MS so adding defog will make it have less options to check stuff and the same HO teams can exploit it, what is needed it getting more good hazard removal options.

 

[awyp]

Typhlosion-Hisui will be very interesting, yes slower than Typhlosion in general but it a stronger special attack with Ghost typing which could be useful with all the Rapid Spinners running around. It has a specialty move called Infernal Parade which is a base 60 move with the ability to burn (30%) and if the user is already statused the power doubles. That in combo with Eruption can be a fun combo. I'm excited when it is officially released.

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

Please no to transfer moves. It's monotonous enough that everything had Toxic, Knock off and Defog, not to mention a total pain to get a competitive team on Cartridge.

 

[Eeveeto]

Banning Gholdengo won't solve anything, just make Corviknight a bit better but at the same time it already suffers from 4MS so adding defog will make it have less options to check stuff and the same HO teams can exploit it, what is needed it getting more good hazard removal options.

It actually will. Vs HO Corviknight doesn,t need to Defog many times, just once. Once is enough. After that, he might as well die, the job its done, rest of the team can handle the HO threats, Corvi just needs to remove the Rocks + Spikes. Even then, it can still check things like non Tera Electric Iron Valiant, or even things like Kingambit or Normal Nite if Corvi is Pdef (Pdef is the BAD Corviknight set no one should use, Sdef is better 99% of the time).
Yes, its only 1 Mon who really gets better without Gholdengo, but you are really underselling how good Corviknight is vs No Gholdengo Hazard Stack.

I know Gholdengo Ban won,t be happening any time soon, but it for sure would make Hazards centered teams much worse than they currently are. Right now, on HO teams Hazard setters can afford being passive (see Ting-Lu or Rocky Helmet Chomp) just by Gholdengo existing. Without Ghold, they now need to actually play around the rising Corvi, Ting-Lu will have to either be paired with Zone or be Max Speed + Taunt, Glimmora will have to run some weird Tera (or Zone, again), Chomp will be running offensive sets (which it already does currently, MixChomp is the most solid set with or without Gholdengo to support it), Orthworm doesn,t change but will have to pass the Tail without the hazards it set earlier.

I am not calling for a Gholdengo Ban (actually, fuck it, I do, though I know its not realistic in short term), just arguing that banning it will actually change the situation a lot for Hazard Stack teams, Corviknight is a really splashable Mon outside of Gholdengo or Magnezone match-ups.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

I agree we need more Defog Pokémon. Why Tornadus and Landorus lost Defog?

 

[Mega Breloom]

It actually will. Vs HO Corviknight doesn,t need to Defog many times, just once. Once is enough. After that, he might as well die, the job its done, rest of the team can handle the HO threats, Corvi just needs to remove the Rocks + Spikes. Even then, it can still check things like non Tera Electric Iron Valiant, or even things like Kingambit or Normal Nite if Corvi is Pdef (Pdef is the BAD Corviknight set no one should use, Sdef is better 99% of the time).
Yes, its only 1 Mon who really gets better without Gholdengo, but you are really underselling how good Corviknight is vs No Gholdengo Hazard Stack.

I know Gholdengo Ban won,t be happening any time soon, but it for sure would make Hazards centered teams much worse than they currently are. Right now, on HO teams Hazard setters can afford being passive (see Ting-Lu or Rocky Helmet Chomp) just by Gholdengo existing. Without Ghold, they now need to actually play around the rising Corvi, Ting-Lu will have to either be paired with Zone or be Max Speed + Taunt, Glimmora will have to run some weird Tera (or Zone, again), Chomp will be running offensive sets (which it already does currently, MixChomp is the most solid set with or without Gholdengo to support it), Orthworm doesn,t change but will have to pass the Tail without the hazards it set earlier.

I am not calling for a Gholdengo Ban (actually, fuck it, I do, though I know its not realistic in short term), just arguing that banning it will actually change the situation a lot for Hazard Stack teams, Corviknight is a really splashable Mon outside of Gholdengo or Magnezone match-ups.

If the issue were Gholdengo, then Talonflame would be used outside of stall to beat it and get that one defog, it can't beat the same stuff but it can beat others and spread burns. Again, the issue isn't Gholdengo because even a lot of hazard stacking teams doesn't even run the cheese string since Tusk is the premiere removal on most of the teams anyway so tera ghost just do the job better. The true issue with hazards is the distribution of them vs the removal options.

 

[FootHead58]

I agree we need more Defog Pokémon. Why Tornadus and Landorus lost Defog?

Both of those mons only learn it via move tutor from a previous game. If you transfer over your defog Lando-T, Pokemon HOME might not allow you to keep old moves (“transfer moves”) as you bring them to gen 9. This would mean there would be no way to get a Lando-T with defog on your gen 9 cartridge, and would mean it’s illegal for smogon play as well. If you’d like to play where all mons(and all of their previous gen moves) are legal, you can explore National Dex OU, but as far as regular OU goes we’re probably out of luck.

But who knows! Maybe the DLC’s will have a move tutor for defog, maybe HOME integration will look different this time, at present it’s pretty murky, but based on previous precedent, it’s safe to assume mons that don’t have defog in their level up moveset won’t have access to it at all.

 

[Eeveeto]

If the issue were Gholdengo, then Talonflame would be used outside of stall to beat it and get that one defog, it can't beat the same stuff but it can beat others and spread burns. Again, the issue isn't Gholdengo because even a lot of hazard stacking teams doesn't even run the cheese string since Tusk is the premiere removal on most of the teams anyway so tera ghost just do the job better. The true issue with hazards is the distribution of them vs the removal options.

I agree that the hazard distribution is insane vs removers (this is the main reason I want a Giratina-A test in OU,but let's not talk about that now) , but Gholdengo influence is still huge.
It's true that some hazard Stacks don't run Gholdengo, this even can be excused if the hazard setters are like Meowscarada + Tusk, both with Taunt, but...
Try running standard Ting Lu without either Zone or Gholdengo. If opponent has a Corviknight, you are playing with 5vs6, it's as simple as that. Ting Lu becomes a totally useless Mon that can only attract Corviknight to do a double switch, hazards won't be a thing in that battle.
Same thing happens with Glimmora, it absolutely needs Gholdengo to work (though if Ghold gets banned, Corrosion Glimmora with Toxic becomes viable).
TankChomp is the same, it can't get past Corviknight, so it will have all hazards removed unless you have Ghold or Zone. This is actually the main reason for which Chomp is Mixed most of the time, to reduce Gholdengo dependancy when setting hazards.

Talonflame sounds like a nice idea until you remember it only scares Gholdengo and doesn't actually Defog vs it, the move it's still blocked. Gholdengo can solve this by going Tera, now it still blocks hazards and you have a useless (except vs Volcarona, Tusk and some Valiants, I guess) bird, the only thing you have achieved is Ghold going Tera, hazards are still there unless you pair Talon with your own Tusk.

Gholdengo is absolutely a factor when discussing hazards as a whole, without it hazard stacking teams will have to play completely differently.

 

[tendokiddo]

I agree we need more Defog Pokémon. Why Tornadus and Landorus lost Defog?

I agree, it's very useless not to add Defog, and, there is no point for Tornadus and Landorus to lose Defog.

 

[UnusualBoy]

(Im in phone so sorry if bad grammar)

It depends on stuff like the move, and the level of distribution

Defog on Flying types/Pokemon with Wings/Bird like pokemon? Lets fucking gooooo

Knock off? As long as it remains on dark types or fighting types with hands sure

Toxic? On poison types and Specific mons like Quagsire? Sure

All of these 3 on a massive scale distribution? Fuck no, we just need some more variety, not another pasive agresive toxic/knock off spam like gen 8 my beloved

Edit: as you can imagine, I hate how gf doesnt have common sense in distribution, why the fuck does meow learn spikes

The fact that Gren doesn't learn knock off while other things less deserving do. That's straight up grenscrimination.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I agree that the hazard distribution is insane vs removers (this is the main reason I want a Giratina-A test in OU,but let's not talk about that now) , but Gholdengo influence is still huge.
It's true that some hazard Stacks don't run Gholdengo, this even can be excused if the hazard setters are like Meowscarada + Tusk, both with Taunt, but...
Try running standard Ting Lu without either Zone or Gholdengo. If opponent has a Corviknight, you are playing with 5vs6, it's as simple as that. Ting Lu becomes a totally useless Mon that can only attract Corviknight to do a double switch, hazards won't be a thing in that battle.
Same thing happens with Glimmora, it absolutely needs Gholdengo to work (though if Ghold gets banned, Corrosion Glimmora with Toxic becomes viable).
TankChomp is the same, it can't get past Corviknight, so it will have all hazards removed unless you have Ghold or Zone. This is actually the main reason for which Chomp is Mixed most of the time, to reduce Gholdengo dependancy when setting hazards.

Talonflame sounds like a nice idea until you remember it only scares Gholdengo and doesn't actually Defog vs it, the move it's still blocked. Gholdengo can solve this by going Tera, now it still blocks hazards and you have a useless (except vs Volcarona, Tusk and some Valiants, I guess) bird, the only thing you have achieved is Ghold going Tera, hazards are still there unless you pair Talon with your own Tusk.

Gholdengo is absolutely a factor when discussing hazards as a whole, without it hazard stacking teams will have to play completely differently.

You are underselling Ting Lu my friend, I'm the CEO of brainless offense with Ting Lu hazards and can tell you that he can do a lot of things in a battle without even having to click hazards. Whrilwind prevents you from being out-chessed by stuff like Poltergeist, Volc, shed tail and so on. Even with just EQ it can beat several set up sweepers by just not dying. The thing with Ting Lu is that thanks to its bulk it can set up hazards multiple times in a match and do other stuff if needed, yeah, it's not the best to do those things but it is far from useless if it can't set up hazards.
Now, to return to the Gholdengo debate, I personally don't like to use it because the meta is just to harsh for him. Yeah, it can spin block but in practice it gets knocked off or just OHKO with EQ by Tusk. Yeah, it is a 50-50 but in most of the cases it is on Tusk favor, while also can be faster if jolly. Potentially losing a mon just against the most used mon in the tier just for keeping hazards seems like bad trade, just using tera ghost on your setter is a more consistent way to go in that kind of teams IMO. And even if you can't prevent the hazards removal it actually isn't the end of the world, Corviknight in fact is kinda exploitable by several set up sweepers so sometimes baiting the defog to get 1-2 free turns to set up is better than keeping the hazards.
IDK, on paper Gholdengo is what makes hazards OP in this meta, but at least on what I have noticed while playing/seeing others play is that the distribution of defog/spin is what puts offense as the easier playstyle to use. It isn't like others ghosts/tera ghost doesn't exist to spin block and everyone will stop using Tusk to run Corviknight (and dropping a move tu run defog) as thier removal option.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Tera Grass Azumarill is so funny, It gives resistance to Grass and Electric.

Also it gets STAB 60 BP Trailblaze and it boosts speed. making Azu outspeed a Max Speed Meowscarada at +2 speed.

However it becomes weak to U-turn and other Bug type moves as well Fire, Flying and Ice type moves

 

[Ehmcee]

Tera Grass Azumarill is so funny, It gives resistance to Grass and Electric.

Also it gets STAB 60 BP Trailblaze and it boosts speed. making Azu outspeed a Max Speed Meowscarada at +2 speed.

However it becomes weak to U-turn and other Bug type moves as well Fire, Flying and Ice type moves

Technically, Tera Grass Thick Fat Azumarill sounds kind of funny, just because Thick Fat would cancel out it's new Ice and Fire weaknesses.
It probably wouldn't be good, but it can shift it's weaknesses if need be.

 

[Karxrida]

1. Ban Rocks + Spikes combination on the same team (similar to BW Drizzle + Swift Swim complex Ban).

Yeah because the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban totally worked out so well for the Gen 5 meta in the long term.

I'd actually be interested in a Spikes test if Gholdengo isn't on the table. Just in general. Spikes stacking is arguably stronger than Rocks and teams abusing it have continuously popped up over the years with high success.

 

[MANNAT]

PLEASE BAN SHED TAIL

​

I know this isn't really the place to discuss this topic, but there's no better place to post it. Letting Shed Tail stay in SV OU has been an enormous error by the OU Council, Senior Staff, and anyone else that was plugged into the decision-making process. Being able to pass Substitutes to teammates in a metagame with threats like Booster Energy Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon creates high incentive to matchup fish with specific sets due to the moveslot space that Shed Tail allows you to use. People were saying this even before SPL started, but the obsession with avoiding "complex bans" with things as simple as moves and abilities has been massively detrimental to the growth of the SV OU metagame in this instance. Not to mention, that two official tournaments have been negatively affected by its presence in the tier. I could post dozens of replays from both SPL and OST that demonstrate how ridiculous Shed Tail is, but I think that the final game of SPL Finals Tiebreak being marred by Shed Tail cheese speaks for itself. I implore the OU council to take action on this move before it affects Smogon Tour playoffs and World Cup.

 

[Nish the Great]

PLEASE BAN SHED TAIL

​

I know this isn't really the place to discuss this topic, but there's no better place to post it. Letting Shed Tail stay in SV OU has been an enormous error by the OU Council, Senior Staff, and anyone else that was plugged into the decision-making process. Being able to pass Substitutes to teammates in a metagame with threats like Booster Energy Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon creates high incentive to matchup fish with specific sets due to the moveslot space that Shed Tail allows you to use. The obsession with avoiding "complex bans" with things as simple as moves and abilities has no place in modern smogon and this instance of it has been massively detrimental to the growth of the SV OU metagame. Not to mention, that two official tournaments have been negatively affected by its presence in the tier. I could post dozens of replays from both SPL and OST that demonstrate how ridiculous Shed Tail is, but I think that the final game of SPL Finals Tiebreak being marred by Shed Tail cheese speaks for itself. I implore the OU council to take action on this move before it affects Smogon Tour playoffs and World Cup.

How exactly does this replay show any thing wrong with shed tail? The only outcome of shed tail was scream tail getting sacked, which honestly wasn’t the most relevant mon, before orthworm then has to be sacked. It just turned a 6v6 into a 5v5, and the rocks it set got sent back anyways.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Why does everyone always complain about Shed Tail? Yeah, the move seems constricting, but there is counterplay to the move considering Orth is slow as balls and red card exists if you really need an out against it. So many people talk about this move like it's ruining the metagame or poisoning the ladder, like seriously, it's a 65-speed 55-spdef poke.

 

[DiscoDucky]

PLEASE BAN SHED TAIL

​

I know this isn't really the place to discuss this topic, but there's no better place to post it. Letting Shed Tail stay in SV OU has been an enormous error by the OU Council, Senior Staff, and anyone else that was plugged into the decision-making process. Being able to pass Substitutes to teammates in a metagame with threats like Booster Energy Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon creates high incentive to matchup fish with specific sets due to the moveslot space that Shed Tail allows you to use. People were saying this even before SPL started, but the obsession with avoiding "complex bans" with things as simple as moves and abilities has been massively detrimental to the growth of the SV OU metagame in this instance. Not to mention, that two official tournaments have been negatively affected by its presence in the tier. I could post dozens of replays from both SPL and OST that demonstrate how ridiculous Shed Tail is, but I think that the final game of SPL Finals Tiebreak being marred by Shed Tail cheese speaks for itself. I implore the OU council to take action on this move before it affects Smogon Tour playoffs and World Cup.

Does it mean we get back Cyclizar?