Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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imagine if dlc and home weren't coming. we'd be stuck with this and 2 years from now people would be debating on the merit of banning shadow ball (and shed tail would still be untouched somehow. seriously, it's been obviously, screamingly uncompetitive since day 1 the fucking trailer they showed it in, how has it lasted this long)
 
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mfw the only ghost resistances are
Greninja/Meowscarada (who are frail)
Hydreigon/Roaring Moon (who are weak to dragapult´s other stab)
Ting Lu (who doesn't really have the slots to fit Crunch)
And zoroark hisui (who i accidentally forgor, but its frail so uuhhh cope)

And that leaves us with Kingambit....................... And Garganacl............
 
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1LDK said:
mfw the only ghost resistances are
Greninja/Meowscarada (who are frail)
Hydreigon/Roaring Moon (who are weak to dragapult´s other stab)
Ting Lu (who doesn't really have the slots to fit Crunch)

And that leaves us with Kingambit....................... And Garganacl............
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Hisui Zoroark is actually pretty solid because it can hit ghosts hard while being immune, which is worth noting, but otherwise ghost answers are few and far between.
#kingambitdidnothingwrong
 
kosecant said:
Hisui Zoroark is actually pretty solid because it can hit ghosts hard while being immune, which is worth noting, but otherwise ghost answers are few and far between.
#kingambitdidnothingwrong
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the issue is that hisuian zoroark is also a ghost-type and would thus be similarly problematic in a kingambitless meta
 
I guess these last posts answer my question, he is important in the meta. Maybe I just have this hate relationship with dark types not named Tyranitar/Weavile.
 
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UnusualBoy said:
I guess these last posts answer my question, he is important in the meta. I guess I just have these hate relationship with dark types not named Tyranitar/Weavile.
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This is making me imagine what Kingambit would look like if Pursuit still existed (and the Bisharp line learned it)
 
Mega Breloom said:
Gholdengo and Dragapult would struggle against Pawniart in ZU while Tyranitar would be a least a top 10 mon in OU, Why do we live in the timeline where pursuit got removed?
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Pursuit was cheap af ngl. kinda destroyed ghost / psychic types hella. the removal of pursuit definitely balanced ghost and psychic types a lot. wouldn't mind if it ever came back but yeah ghosts are so much nicer.
 
AndViet said:
Pursuit was cheap af ngl. kinda destroyed ghost / psychic types hella. the removal of pursuit definitely balanced ghost and psychic types a lot. wouldn't mind if it ever came back but yeah ghosts are so much nicer.
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It is a shame for psychic types, but I don't know, ghost also being able to escape from trap items and abilities being weak to pursuit seems like a nice balance for it.
 
Following the survey and on a different note from what have been discussed over and over on this thread (mainly orthworm, and I said back before Espathra ban that shed tail was actually a problem), what are your thoughts on unending trap moves ? Do you think they are healthy for the metagame ? I can't recall trap moves being a thing before except for endless battle clause but trap abilities definitely were a thing as they constantly get banned. This generation we got block that sees regular play with garganacl and on a lesser extent jaw lock on roaring moon with things like bulk up and a good tera to take advantage of a defensive switch in that no longer counters it after tera and becomes set up fodder (the main target would be defensive tusk beaten by tera flying).

I don't think those block strategies are particularly broken but I was wondering if you guys find them enjoyable and healthy for the game.
 
AndViet said:
Pursuit was cheap af ngl. kinda destroyed ghost / psychic types hella. the removal of pursuit definitely balanced ghost and psychic types a lot. wouldn't mind if it ever came back but yeah ghosts are so much nicer.
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I have conflicting feelings about pursuit tbh, while it is often quite cheap there are times where it feels like an absolute necessity (or maybe I've just been playing too much BW recently and extrapolating that to other gens). Idk how controversial of a take this is but XY's "balancing" of steels by removing their Ghost resistance helped make the type broken more than the removal of Pursuit did. Then again it makes ghold easier to handle, but ghold has other forms of counterplay (and can run fblast) anyway.
 
What do you think of Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant? I love playing these Pokémon, they are among my favorites of 9G and I particularly like their variety of movesets, but this variety would not make them problematic, precisely? I feel like they don't have any really reliable counters, that they always have a way to pass any Pokemon with a move out of nowhere or a more obscure set, Iron Valiant in particular. They are often unpredictable. And I don't feel like Tera restriction will change anything on it.
 
Would it be possible to do a suspect ladder with the ban in place so we could get a glimpse into a potentially new meta?

My thoughts are that between Shed Tail, Tera, and various abusers of them it’s hard to parse out what’s really broken. A suspect ladder without Shed Tail might help us better answer this question instead of banning it and blindly entering a new meta.

I get the majority of people here seem to want Shed Tail banned regardless, so perhaps a suspect ladder like this would be more helpful if we decide to test Tera again or Kingambit (to better evaluate the importance of its presence for checking ghosts etc.).

I recall we used to have two suspect ladders many years ago and you needed to get reqs on both to vote. I think that setup is fine (I’m not sure why it stopped….maybe getting reqs on two ladders was a little tedious or not enough users played the suspect ladder?). However, another idea would be to have the first week of the suspect test with the proposed ban in place and the second week of the suspect test to return to normal; to keep things simple if you get reqs at any point during those two weeks you can vote.
 
Sniperorblack? said:
i think game freak knew ghosts were going to be overwhelming, with pokes like ghold and flutter mane, so they just slapped on a ghost resist to garg's ability lol
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It's a useful additional resistance for a Rock type for for sure, and it actually also fits with Garganacl's concept well because salt is used for religious purification rituals in Japan (and I think also in some other Asian countries) and it has the power to ward off evil spirits (Ghost types).
 
I just wanted to say something pre-emptively on shed tail because it appears likely it will get a suspect in the near future:

It is important for us to understand when we are suspecting it that we aren’t suspecting shed tail in a vacuum. We are suspecting shed tail in a meta where only two Pokemon have the move: Orthworm and Cyclizar. Let’s go over the latter first since it’s already been banned

  • Cyclizar: Cyclizar is a Pokemon uniquely situated to abuse shed tail to its fullest. Having regenerator lets it use the move multiple amount of times with negligible self damage. Having a high speed tier also allows it to consistently pull off the move without fear of taking too much pre-emptive damage or crippled in other ways. Due to it being fast it does mean sometimes the sub breaks on switch. But due to regenerator that effectively turns this move into a a teleport-like move allowing you to safely switch in otherwise difficult to get in mons. Assuming you can keep the sub up though, you’re off to the races to do sub shenanigans. Cyclizar’s other traits include a ghost immunity giving it safe switch ins, a very powerful STAB Draco Meteor, rapid spin and probably a few others I’m missing. All in all, Cyclizar seems to me to have been uniquely situated to abuse shed tail to an extent
  • Orthworm: Orthworm also has unique abilities that allow it to abuse shed tail, but arguably not to the same level as Cyclizar. Orthworm has the ability Earth Eater, which grants it an immunity to ground type, which allows this otherwise super effective type against it to heal on hit. This is certainly a very nice ability that helps OW’s longevity, but it does take a lot more work and good plays to make good use of compared to regenerator’s healing. Orthworm also gives up any semblance of a speed stat in exchange for a massive defense. Allowing it to switch in on most though not all physical mons. The slow speed also allows it to more guarantee the substitute is still up, should it successfully shed tail. Next we look at the typing, which is grants it a poison immunity as well as an incredible defensive typing in general. Which Orthworm is situated well to use. As for the movepool: outside of shed tail Orthworm’s movepool can be described as *ok*. It’s certainly not as good as Cyclizar’s but still decent. Stealth Rocks is always nice for extra chip damage to support your offense, and body press/heavy slam, while not the best, are ok attacks to press for it. Overall though it would seem to me Orthworm, is significantly less capable of abusing shed tail to its fullest than Cyclizar is.

    I’ll leave with this: whether you think Orthworm is problematic and ban worthy or not, make sure that is the question. Cyclizar is banned. Orthworm is currently the only shed tail abuser. So if shed tail is to be banned: it ought be because it is too much on Orthworm specifically.
 
Ramplestilskin said:
Following the survey and on a different note from what have been discussed over and over on this thread (mainly orthworm, and I said back before Espathra ban that shed tail was actually a problem), what are your thoughts on unending trap moves ? Do you think they are healthy for the metagame ? I can't recall trap moves being a thing before except for endless battle clause but trap abilities definitely were a thing as they constantly get banned. This generation we got block that sees regular play with garganacl and on a lesser extent jaw lock on roaring moon with things like bulk up and a good tera to take advantage of a defensive switch in that no longer counters it after tera and becomes set up fodder (the main target would be defensive tusk beaten by tera flying).

I don't think those block strategies are particularly broken but I was wondering if you guys find them enjoyable and healthy for the game.
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I enjoy trapping moves and overall don’t find them problematic. Infestation Pex and Block Nacl are genuinely decent sets but far from the best. The problem with the moves also is the second you use them you lose all surprise factor and become significantly worse throughout the game. So yeah ultimately I don’t have an issue with them lol.
 
Newer player that messes around at like mid 1500s-1600s. I don’t pretend to have some incredible insight into the game.

meta enjoyment: 5 some days I feel like a totally get it. Then I get 6-0’d by a roaring moon shed tail because I chose the wrong lead.

competitiveness: 5. tera, shed tail, forgetting to counter one mon in the builder make games too high variance.

shed tail: 5, if someone gets a shed tail off you have to have the perfect counter or hope they misplay.

volc: 3, I don’t think it’s much more annoying than last gen (although I only played like 2 months of it.) it never really works as well as I want it to.

Kingambit: 3. As others have said, we need more ghost/steel resists. Obviously when you reverse sweep after playing poorly for 30 turns you feel like a dick.

garg: 3, yes, the people with the “get gud” argument are right, garg is easy to play around if you have a sub or cloak mon. But their lack of critical thinking forgets it’s too centralizing in the builder for me for it to get a lower rating. I would like to not make a team and then realize I have to give up 50% chip on a breaker when I forgot to add cc or sub.

Other: Tera is just too big of a power boost for many mons imo. I don’t mind the variability, but when your wall gets it for 50 on a neutral switch in, it helps HO because sacking and then revenge killing is always the right choice.
 
BobbyHill said:
Other: Tera is just too big of a power boost for many mons imo. I don’t mind the variability, but when your wall gets it for 50 on a neutral switch in, it helps HO because sacking and then revenge killing is always the right choice.
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honestly thats my issue with tera too. i dont mind losing weaknesses, i dont even mind a bs tera coming out of nowhere and surprising me, leading to a loss. its annoying, but i cant stay mad at the opponent cause they clearly played well enough to preserve it and play just enough so the tera might give them the win. but tera boosting stab and making moves just stronger? i hate that. sooooo much. it just makes a lot of pokemon way stronger with no real downside to it, i dont wanna get fuckin blasted by banded tera grass meowscarada every game. the only downside is it might be a waste, in case the mon you tera'd dies early.
 
Mega Breloom said:
Something that makes me doub about the comparations with Torn is that Cyclizar doesn't seem to force many switches like Torn used to do. So u-turn and knock off may have limited usage, with Shed tail bring on a low health Cyclizar after something was killed just to u-turn to get the regen healing was worth, while a not shed tail Cyclizar with its low bulk makes hard to see why it would be worth, especially since it fails to force switches and tera steel and fairy being so popular handicaps draco meteor which is the only move Cyclizar can hope to do damage with.
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thats pretty true.. cyclizar is pitifully weak. but thats why its torn on a budget, he is purely there to gain momentum and occasionally act as a supportive mon that most cant catch. if they stay in, chances are it dies. but the boons it has already still give it a viable niche, in my opinion. anything to ease the shadow ball spam from dragapult is a blessing.
 
So has anyone come along to using Body Press Nacl? I thought the set was pretty invalid since Gholdengo was roaming around in the meta but with it's usage going down I feel like it can work vs Roaring Moon and Bulk Up Tusk matchups.
 
I did the math
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AndViet said:
So has anyone come along to using Body Press Nacl? I thought the set was pretty invalid since Gholdengo was roaming around in the meta but with it's usage going down I feel like it can work vs Roaring Moon and Bulk Up Tusk matchups.
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Gholdengo hates Kingambit and also hates switching in on salt cure because it tends to not run covert cloak for some reason. So body press garg can deal with tera Skeledirge as long as it isn't tera fairy, can 1v1 tusk if played right(you need to tera though). and claps gambit after one curse. I didn't do the calcs for if body press kills untera'd gambit without curse first. Also you will need mons to deal with Gholdengo, Dragapult, and H-Zoroark. Best partner is Kingambit/Dondozo to remove shared checks as curse garg can "check" tusk.
 
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