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SPOILERS! All Returning DLC Pokemon in SV DLC Expansion Pass <Unconfirmed>

R_N said:
If it can't go to SWSH there's no reason for it to be able to go to LA/BDSP; it's all still using gen 8 Pokemon data.
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It's because they store different movesets. Ever since the Home update for BDSP and Legends, most info is stored server-side for Pokemon rather than game-side, so stuff like Tera-type can be stored safely in the coding without it being reset. It's the same with stuff like TR rememberance and Dynamax level, BDSP and Legends don't keep track of that data at all, but Home does so when you move a Pokemon from SwSh to BDSP back to Sword it still can re-learn all of the TRs and it's dynamax level wouldn't be reset. G-max status is also kept track of but G-max Pikachu, Eevee, and Meowth can't be sent to BDSP or Legends to prevent getting Raichu, Persian, and Eeveelutions with a non-functional G-max status

Similarly, for Ribbons, Pokeballs, and Origin Markers introduced in BDSP and Arceus, they keep data lined up-coding wise within SwSh for any undefined ribbons and pokeballs without giving any updates to SwSh's coding at all after the home update happened. the Ribbons are invisible but still flagged, the origin mark just defaults of the Galar one allowing Pokemon caught in BDSP and Legends to obtain the Master Rank ribbon without needing to be Battle-ready marked while the pokeballs appear as normal Pokeballs but are still remembered in the codinglike how it was for Pokemon caught in Apriballs when traded to Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum worked.

I'm not saying they WILL allow Pokemon caught in SV to be sent to BDSP and Legends, but if they REALLY wanted to allow that it would be a lot easier to do than you think, for hyporhetical SwSh compatibility it mostly depends on whether or not SV stores seperate moveset data or not since I'm pretty sure they'd be too lazy to update SwSh since the Galar games didn't even get one for BDSP or Legends.
 
Nokocchi said:
It's because they store different movesets. Ever since the Home update for BDSP and Legends, most info is stored server-side for Pokemon rather than game-side, so stuff like Tera-type can be stored safely in the coding without it being reset. It's the same with stuff like TR rememberance and Dynamax level, BDSP and Legends don't keep track of that data at all, but Home does so when you move a Pokemon from SwSh to BDSP back to Sword it still can re-learn all of the TRs and it's dynamax level wouldn't be reset. G-max status is also kept track of but G-max Pikachu, Eevee, and Meowth can't be sent to BDSP or Legends to prevent getting Raichu, Persian, and Eeveelutions with a non-functional G-max status

Similarly, for Ribbons, Pokeballs, and Origin Markers introduced in BDSP and Arceus, they keep data lined up-coding wise within SwSh for any undefined ribbons and pokeballs without giving any updates to SwSh's coding at all after the home update happened. the Ribbons are invisible but still flagged, the origin mark just defaults of the Galar one allowing Pokemon caught in BDSP and Legends to obtain the Master Rank ribbon without needing to be Battle-ready marked while the pokeballs appear as normal Pokeballs but are still remembered in the codinglike how it was for Pokemon caught in Apriballs when traded to Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum worked.

I'm not saying they WILL allow Pokemon caught in SV to be sent to BDSP and Legends, but if they REALLY wanted to allow that it would be a lot easier to do than you think, for hyporhetical SwSh compatibility it mostly depends on whether or not SV stores seperate moveset data or not since I'm pretty sure they'd be too lazy to update SwSh since the Galar games didn't even get one for BDSP or Legends.
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I'm aware it stores different movesets, we're literally talking about it to this point. Home tracking that data (which...actually now that I think about it I think it's ltierally jsut a list of moves associated with a Pokemon so its just tacked on extra data for Home) doesn't matter because it's still, to my knowledge, the Gen 8 Pokemon data structure.

All Home is, to my knowledge, doing is just keeping a list of "okay it knows these moves for this game". There's under the hood aspects of the Pokemon data that changes that isn't just new things it has to keep track of. This is the reason why Bank couldn't swap between 6 & 7, even if nothing changed about the Pokemon; it wasn't just there being various minor flags to account for, it was some fundamental bit.
 
R_N said:
I'm aware it stores different movesets, we're literally talking about it to this point. Home tracking that data (which...actually now that I think about it I think it's ltierally jsut a list of moves associated with a Pokemon so its just tacked on extra data for Home) doesn't matter because it's still, to my knowledge, the Gen 8 Pokemon data structure.

All Home is, to my knowledge, doing is just keeping a list of "okay it knows these moves for this game". There's under the hood aspects of the Pokemon data that changes that isn't just new things it has to keep track of. This is the reason why Bank couldn't swap between 6 & 7, even if nothing changed about the Pokemon; it wasn't just there being various minor flags to account for, it was some fundamental bit.
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You seem to be forgetting the biggest thing: Internally SwSh, BDSP, and Legends are all coded internally in Home as separate generations (listed as gens 8, 9, and 10, respectively, outright even called "generations" in the code), all three groups of games being "Gen VIII" is merely a fan thing, and ever since the BDSP/Legends update to Home's coding structure has been modified heavily so that the unique ID number assigned to each Pokemonn deposited into home now keeps track of more stuff than it initially did when the app was first released in order to ease moving Pokemon between those three groups of games.

As I said in my last post I don't know that they WILL allow backwards transferring, but doing so on a mechanical level is a lot easier to code in Home than you think it is, SV's structure is closer to SwSh/Legends coding-wise than BDSP is to either due to using Unity instead of the custom GF Pokemon engine(in fact BDSP is pretty much just the coding of the original Diamond and Pearl awkwardly dumped onto unity with barely and changes to the point than many Gen IV-exclusive glitches could be duplicated at launch, which is probably why it took so long for Home to be compatible with it).
 
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Nokocchi said:
You seem to be forgetting the biggest thing: Internally SwSh, BDSP, and Legends are all coded internally in Home as separate generations (listed as gens 8, 9, and 10, respectively), all three groups of games being "Gen VIII" is merely a fan thing, and ever since the BDSP/Legends update to Home's coding structure has been modified heavily so that the unique ID number assigned to each Pokemonn deposited into home now keeps track of more stuff than it initially did when the app was first released.
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The generation thing is more or less a fan thing, but that's irrelevant to the actual point I'm making which is that pokemon data for SWSH/BDSP/LA is all intercompatible in a way that, say, Let's Go isn't.
And--Actually you know what I had other things to say but after thinking about it more let's just delete that and cut to a clearer chase:


At the highest (....lowest...?) most level none of this matters because the Pokemon data when it moves gen to gen is likely at its core just Game A (whether is an actual game or something like Bank or Home) telling Game B, hey this is what this Pokemon has, make a new Pokemon that matches it in the new structure, then deletes it from Game A

Purely hypothetically, any of these things could probably* just send back to an ealier Gen it's just more feasible with Bank & Home since the onus on remembering the "old" Pokemon is on the server (or the dedicated storage software, I suppose) rather than the cart's save data.
But all that's happening now, as of the BDSPLA update, is it keeps a list of its moves between games. It's an expansion on functionality it's already doing, and likely was pretty adhoc to it.
(& them tracking more data is irrelevant since they'd be needing to track more data for Gen 9 anyway, personally)

So putting aside any hair splitting about data structures at this point I think I actually fall on: at the end of the day it probably really came down to they just don't want generational trade backs. They could expand it outward and just keep a full copy of every Pokemon's full data and thus allow gens 8, 9, and onward (and also Let's Go) to freely swap...But I just don't think they want to? To an extent it probably comes down to "why bother?".



*Well technical limitations aside. I imagine the gen 4 titles had no problems reading and deleting from the GBA slot but might have had issues writing to it, as an example.

e: I just remembered we're entertaining this idea when they couldn't even bother to fix Spinda...
 
R_N said:
e: I just remembered we're entertaining this idea when they couldn't even bother to fix Spinda...
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This was more than just a BDSP problem (potentially). If they don't want to say "hey, all your Spinda previously caught in BDSP will now see their spots change", they would've had to implement two different spot algorithms into every future generation forever.
 
Zowayix said:
This was more than just a BDSP problem (potentially). If they don't want to say "hey, all your Spinda previously caught in BDSP will now see their spots change", they would've had to implement two different spot algorithms into every future generation forever.
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Hypothetically Home could have solved this basically through the thing we're implying in this discussion: Save a different copy of Spinda('s spot pattern code).
Old Spinda is about to go into BDSP, Home saves the current pattern's code, translates it into what it would need to be in the truncated BDSP pattern code, then applies spot pattern code to the Spinda when it actually places it in. When it comes out of BDSP it reapplies the original pattern so it can go about its business in other games (such as..........and........)
Alternatively they make it a one-way street for Spinda, if the truncation is just too complex to work around from a non-truncation -> truncation standpoint, and simply translate the truncated pattern into what it would need ot be to maintain the pattern and then lock it off forever.

And probably other handy options it's too early in the morning to think of.

Likely annoying but imo definitely had possibilities that would probably tie into the idea of letting you back track across generations in Home; after all if they're already doing this translation work and saving extra things for spinda's patterns of all things they could probably apply that to properly tracking, truncating and then reinstating for pokemon that want to go between Let's Go, any of the gen 8 titles, and SV
 
R_N said:
Likely annoying but imo definitely had possibilities that would probably tie into the idea of letting you back track across generations in Home; after all if they're already doing this translation work and saving extra things for spinda's patterns of all things they could probably apply that to properly tracking, truncating and then reinstating for pokemon that want to go between Let's Go, any of the gen 8 titles, and SV
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Honestly I'm more on the line of thinking that they consider creating Spinda a huge mistake that didn't have any tought for portability like 90% of what they've done all the way to SwSh... and thus not feeling like wanting to even put effort to fix the BDSP Spinda problem.

"Let's create a pokemon with a custom pattern and a million possibilities, surely this won't be annoying to keep porting moving forward in the generations"
 
Worldie said:
Honestly I'm more on the line of thinking that they consider creating Spinda a huge mistake that didn't have any tought for portability like 90% of what they've done all the way to SwSh... and thus not feeling like wanting to even put effort to fix the BDSP Spinda problem.

"Let's create a pokemon with a custom pattern and a million possibilities, surely this won't be annoying to keep porting moving forward in the generations"
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I mean the problem kind of is more on ILCA in this case, and less the algorithm itself and more they I think it amounted to a typo with consequences.
I FINALLY found the dang tweet and it turned out it wasn't truncation (not sure why I thought it was), it was inversion.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1483656532495454208
https://twitter.com/x/status/1500557458623778819
That's something that could apply to literally anything.

And in BDSP's case specifically, did happen,to various things
https://twitter.com/x/status/1468155525971922946


Gamefreak's got messy code but the algorithm is probably pretty simple all things considered and probably is relatively easy to port forward, or at least not much harder than anything else. But mistakes happen.




But hey speaking of messy code, during this entire escapade I forgot that the way they handled the movesets thing is actual a kind of hacky mess that everyone who reads into it hates so it's not like you're wrong that they didn't want to put the effort to fix it. But boy it sure doesn't change my mind that they're probably not going to juggle more things just to do backwards transfers.
 
I kinda wonder how Serperior will play out with Tera tbh. I don't think it'll broken, not even close, but I wonder if it'll still be a good mon akin to what it was like in the Gen 6 and 7 metas. Tera can fix its coverage issues to some degree, not sure which Tera type would benefit it most in an OU context.

Emboar's likely to learn Close Combat now which will be a boon for it IMO.
 
The main problem would be "does it demand tera, or tera is a plus?".

If it would look like dragonite in VGC where you have the option to flying for terablast while also packing the usual ddance / extreme speed, cool, but if it ends up becoming a "tera or useless" mon like Jolteon, not so much.
 
Worldie said:
The main problem would be "does it demand tera, or tera is a plus?".

If it would look like dragonite in VGC where you have the option to flying for terablast while also packing the usual ddance / extreme speed, cool, but if it ends up becoming a "tera or useless" mon like Jolteon, not so much.
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I think that mostly depends on if it gets any good new non-stab special moves that aren't Normal or Dragon type.
 
So with this update it seems like the returning mons selection is now at a point basically around the 230 range they advertised. Unless there's something I've missed, this is the nail in the coffin for the legend spam trash returning.

Shedding off that while having every starter return. Unfathomably based.

Anywho, food for thought: In the Paldea anime they showed that the Indigo Academy students can select from one of every starter trio. Perhaps this is how it'll work in the DLC itself too?
 
Yung Dramps said:
So with this update it seems like the returning mons selection is now at a point basically around the 230 range they advertised. Unless there's something I've missed, this is the nail in the coffin for the legend spam trash returning.

Shedding off that while having every starter return. Unfathomably based.

Anywho, food for thought: In the Paldea anime they showed that the Indigo Academy students can select from one of every starter trio. Perhaps this is how it'll work in the DLC itself too?
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If you take it solely as what is listed here, so including all the Pokemon literally already in the game, there's over 250 Pokemon.
So already a fairly overshot wrong number

If you remove all of those then it's 211, thanks to the other 6 Unovan starters being around, which is 19~29 undershooting.

but on the upshot for you, even removing the UBs you can't just add in all the remaining Legendary pokemon since it shoots us to 242 at that point may as well just say 240+ rather than 230+. Maybe remove Type Null/Silvally and i dunno the Lati or something and it could work. But you get the gist.
 
Every starter returning makes me really happy, although I am pretty biased as Serperior is my favorite mon ever and I was very sad about it being left out of Gen 8. Honestly even if they continue with Dex cuts I feel like every starter eventually returning should be a staple feature, I get not including some rando mons or legendaries but the starters are really damn iconic.
 
Yung Dramps said:
Anywho, food for thought: In the Paldea anime they showed that the Indigo Academy students can select from one of every starter trio. Perhaps this is how it'll work in the DLC itself too?
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Seeing as how one of the DLC, namely The Indigo Disk, has us enrolling as an exchange student in the Blueberry Academy, a sister academy to the Naranja/Uva Academy, I could very well see all of the starters being available through the Indigo Disk campaign in such a manner.

The way it worked in the Indigo Academy in Horizons is that they just had every starter that ever historically existed set up for the individual students to pick one by one and each person went up by roll call to pick a starter as their partner. I could see such a setup being the way to get starters in the Blueberry Academy in the Indigo Disk expansion, though how they will set up this many starters to be obtainable in such a manner has yet to be seen. It'll definitely be a first however.

In this case it would mainly be Kanto to Galar, from a roster of 24 Pokemon in total in that regard.
 
Here's the thing I don't get, how would you get the Sinnoh fossils if they're planned to be in the DLC? Given they're the only fossils listed, there must be some way of obtaining them. I can imagine you get it as a gift Pokemon, maybe version exclusives are involved.

Also watch Bastiodon still be pure ass even with it inevitably getting stuff like Body Press.
 
Melons-N-Soda said:
Here's the thing I don't get, how would you get the Sinnoh fossils if they're planned to be in the DLC? Given they're the only fossils listed, there must be some way of obtaining them. I can imagine you get it as a gift Pokemon, maybe version exclusives are involved.

Also watch Bastiodon still be pure ass even with it inevitably getting stuff like Body Press.
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implement them as traditional fossils you restore
get them as a gift, then find them in raids
just shrug and run into them in the wild, who knows what Blueberry Academy was doing over there. Omanyte was already released into the wild and ruining ecosystems (canonically!) in Crown Tundra so whatever!
 
Melons-N-Soda said:
I can imagine you get it as a gift Pokemon, maybe version exclusives are involved.
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Well it’s what Sun & Moon did with Aerodactyl, for some reason, even though Alola has its own fossil restoration site. So there is precedent.

Alternatively, maybe they can be found in a deeper chamber of Area Zero? It’d be thematically appropriate, at least.
 
'Mons that don't look like they will make it:

1685730036633.png



'Mons that look like they will make it:

1685730138851.png



A legendary calvacade is also needed to get the number mentioned in the DLC announcement, but I'm not sure if that one accounted for mythicals and/or Ultra Beasts.
 
Eriorguez said:
'Mons that don't look like they will make it:

View attachment 522055


'Mons that look like they will make it:

View attachment 522056


A legendary calvacade is also needed to get the number mentioned in the DLC announcement, but I'm not sure if that one accounted for mythicals and/or Ultra Beasts.
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To reach that number I excluded the Mythics & UBs. UBs were officially removed from the Legendary list internally (or sub-legend, i guess) with this gen.

Though the number gets a little more off with the addition of the Serperior & Emboar lines; that brings us up to 212. If you ignore Mythics+UBs and bring in all the remaining legends that would put us at 242. Which is over 230 but kind of breaks the spirit of that kind of announcement; you'd probably want to say "Over 240". If we want to keep playing poke-math we could probably remove the 4 most expendable legends: Type Null & Silvally (Since there's no UBs, I guess?) and Latios & Latios.
Though honestly at that point why not just bring the others on board anyway at that point...but I suppose you can apply that same argument to the starters in Gen 8.

Or who knows, maybe the Serperior & Emboar lines were "late" additions ala Magearna.
 
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