Bax having an immunity to block its strongest stab isn't a huge problem when you remember we have almost no bulky fairies at all. It doesn't have an entirely enjoyable defensive typing but it still has entry points against common Pokemon like RotomW or other bulky waters while HoopaU is both slow and defensively lacking which means getting it into battle against anything that isn't a super fat team is rough. You talk high praise of HoopaU in natdex but there's a reason it isn't even ranked there. It is bowled over by any fast pokemon (hell anything over 81 speed clocks it), and we have no shortage of those. The omnipresence of hazards also makes revenging it crazy easy as it will get chipped constantly. You can't run scarf because the speed is way too low to be helpful. Specs/band is still prediction reliant against a decently put together team, and the lack of defensive utility is awful. And this tier has no shortage of ways to abuse it (tera screws it over just as much as it powers it, because a timely tera to tank a hit and KO back)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Bax having an immunity to block its strongest stab isn't a huge problem when you remember we have almost no bulky fairies at all. It doesn't have an entirely enjoyable defensive typing but it still has entry points against common Pokemon like RotomW or other bulky waters while HoopaU is both slow and defensively lacking which means getting it into battle against anything that isn't a super fat team is rough. You talk high praise of HoopaU in natdex but there's a reason it isn't even ranked there. It is bowled over by any fast pokemon (hell anything over 81 speed clocks it), and we have no shortage of those. The omnipresence of hazards also makes revenging it crazy easy as it will get chipped constantly. You can't run scarf because the speed is way too low to be helpful. Specs/band is still prediction reliant against a decently put together team, and the lack of defensive utility is awful. And this tier has no shortage of ways to abuse it (tera screws it over just as much as it powers it, because a timely tera to tank a hit and KO back)
80/60 physical bulk and base 80 speed means that every physical attacker in the tier can potentially revenge a Choice Band set by virtue of either naturally outspeeding or priority - not figuratively, literally all of them. In a few cases it does matter what Hoopa-U chose to terastalize into (Breloom loses to Tera Psychic) or requires defensive terastalization (Kingambit requires it if Hoopa is locked to Drain Punch) but, again, literally every offensive physical mon outspeeds or has priority.
Wow, ok, did you even saw any of the replays of Hoopa-U in action? But ok I bite:
Fair point, I concede that.
This is nonsense, Hoopa might not have the best typing but it's special bulk allows it to switch into plenty of threats who can't do much back Rotom like you mentioned and many of the bulky waters in the meta with Only Donzo being the outliner and while Bax doesn't need to worry burns clicking burn or status moves on Hoopa is a gamble since you can be smacked by it from the other side of the spectrum if you expect a physical set.
Those two are bad argument It's like saying Tusk is a bad mon because anyting faster than it can beat it or Bax is bad because it's rocks weak and affected by every hazard in the sun. Not a single one of those "faster threats" can come safely on Hoopa since they have to eat one of his Stabs, even stuff which in theory could check it can only switch once otherwise they're fair picking.
So you're implying all the people I fought hadn't decent teams that's why I won against them? That's preposterous, Hoopa-U barely needs prediction, It can literally clicks it's stabs alone and get some progress since they are so ridiculous strong and no, Tera don't screws it over as much as you think and that argument is flawed since can apply to ANY pokémon in the meta.
I don't deny people's skepticism regarding Hoopa but throwing it away on theorymon alone is a huge disrespect to a very solid mon, I can't see it going lower than B really.
Edit: Turns out the NatDex thread was updated back in March, I apologize for that assumption since I actually forgot about that, I edited my post but but I still believe Hoopa-U is a underated threat there and in the future here, but enough about talking about an other meta on SVOU
Last edited:
you forget that the suspect test illuminated the fact that there are only like 10 anti-tera people good enough to get reqs
I've been messing around with Cloyster + Slowking and I've had some success, Cloyster is bulky enough to take a physical attack and go for the Shell Smash under Snow. The only thing that saves other mons from Cloyster is probably Dozo / Pex and Tera aside from that it straights up smashes offenses.
choice band tera dark Hoopa-u literally 2HKOs everything
like idk if uve played any home tours but Hoopa is a base 680 which makes it strong as fuck and it bulk good enough to sponge hits despite its poor speed
that's why people have been running Hoopa on webs and just going brrrr
anyways here's some calcs for all the Hoopa doubters
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 292-344 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 274-324 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 209-247 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Garganacl: 272-322 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
IT CAN DO 90 TO PEX and its not even super effective
not even tusk can put up those numbers with eq (maybe headlong)
like bruh that's literally all the walls in OU getting 2HKOd
the only other mon that's even AT that level is 5 dead teammates kingambit
hoopa aint lasting 1min in OU
Magearna is getting Spikes so fuck that noise. I can't imagine it being healthy even if Tera gets banned.
SS didn't have Tera. Magearna was tested 2 times and was deemed broken in both of them. If it lost Trick (the move that in my opinion broke the Mon), I would consider giving it a chance, even with Spikes (Iron Treads would gain some usage, can't see Spikes + Focus Blast being optimal), but with Trick still in the arsenal, it's a hard no for me, with or without Tera.
I also believe gaining access to Stored Power along with Draining Kiss did have an impact of some sort on how busted it is.
Yes, Draining Kiss is a pretty cancerous move (I would Dexit it right after Taunt) and it totally mattered (in fact, last Gen I supported Spectrier staying in OU and this one I want it out of it due to Draining Kiss among other things). Yet, Trick is for me the one Move that made Magearna cross the line from being "Dominant threat" to "Broken Move".
CM + Draining Kiss did have some hard counters, like Sdef Excadrill.
Trick + Specs had none. Every single Mon that resisted the nukes (Fleur, Flash, Blast or even Volt Switch) was rendered useless by Trick. Closest things to counter play for that were AV Slowking (both formes) and Pex, still suboptimal vs Mag.
I'd like to know if the council (or someone close to them) knows the way they are going to handle the HOME update ? Specifically, will they suspect and possibly ban borderline broken Pokemon that could be fine without Tera and then suspect Tera or would the council be ok with testing Tera first ?
I think testing Tera before Pokemon that are only problematic because of Tera would be for the best to waste as little time as possible to have a stable metagame (whether Tera ends up being banned or not) because it would be a shame to ban Pokemon then ban Tera only to suspect again all the Pokemon that were broken just because of Tera.
I also saw someone mention an alternative ladder without Tera and I think it would be a wonderful idea to see what a meta without Tera would look like.
I think testing Tera before Pokemon that are only problematic because of Tera would be for the best to waste as little time as possible to have a stable metagame (whether Tera ends up being banned or not) because it would be a shame to ban Pokemon then ban Tera only to suspect again all the Pokemon that were broken just because of Tera.
I also saw someone mention an alternative ladder without Tera and I think it would be a wonderful idea to see what a meta without Tera would look like.
I think with tera, Hoopa could POSSIBLY be unhealthy for the meta. The issue is that there are a lot of other things that can say the same. The most prominent example would be Iron Valiant, who just frankly beats everything with the right set, but also Dragonite, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, and Kingambit can all somewhat bypass their checks with Tera. It's a problem with the mechanic, not the Pokemon. You can never be sure that your counterplay is really counterplay. Hoopa is balanced by being slow and having a 4x weakness to U-Turn. Volc is balanced by its inadequate coverage to hit everything and SR-weak typing. However, with Tera, those weaknesses just... go away? With so many viable threats, that means you must have a check for the original pokemon AND the pokemon when tera'd, and often these are completely different. For an example, say your opponent's Volc gets in after a kill from specs Valiant locked into Moonblast and QDs and you swap in a rock-type to kill it while not taking much from either of its STABS. You're safe, right? You accounted for the threat in the teambuilder and you played correctly in-game. But it will just tera into something resistant to rock and continue setting up or just Tera Grass Giga Drain you and lmao you just lost your check to it and you're facing down a +1 or +2 pokemon with 135 special attack and 3 STABs. It's just unhealthy and stupid.
Side note:
My favorite calcs :D
252+ Atk Choice Band Stakeout Spidops Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 396-466 (98 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 276-326 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This isn't an argument for either Spidops or Hoopa being busted, just thought it was funny.
Last edited:
There are trade-offs with Tera first that I'm not sure are worth it. Specifically, if we suspect Tera during what's likely gonna be a chaotic meta shift, there will a valid argument to stop the suspect test because the meta needs to settle first. While I don't think a few new mons are gonna magically make Tera more or less balanced, the argument of "Tera isn't the broken one, X banworthy mon is" will impede the serious consideration of the mechanic just like it did when Chien-Pao and Espathra roamed free.
If the second Tera suspect fails because of this, there might not be room for a third if necessary. Not only will we be likely dealing with the aftermath of DLC drops, but there will be the argument that it's "too late now," sorta like what happened with Kartana in Gen 7.
Even if a Tera suspect fails again without any revisions to the mechanic or Tera is completely removed from all tiers, I still think there's gonna be a lot of dissatisfaction from one side that will persist throughout the generation. There should be a no Tera/Tera is legal format for the losing side, if only for tournaments or something, to at least throw them a bone.
If the second Tera suspect fails because of this, there might not be room for a third if necessary. Not only will we be likely dealing with the aftermath of DLC drops, but there will be the argument that it's "too late now," sorta like what happened with Kartana in Gen 7.
Even if a Tera suspect fails again without any revisions to the mechanic or Tera is completely removed from all tiers, I still think there's gonna be a lot of dissatisfaction from one side that will persist throughout the generation. There should be a no Tera/Tera is legal format for the losing side, if only for tournaments or something, to at least throw them a bone.
I can say the same thing about volcarona, except it has a real speed stat and doesn't rely on tera to not die to moves as common as *u-turn*
While we're on the topic of Hoopa-U, this is the Scarfer set I've been using in post-HOME OU Tours Plaza tours:
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psychic
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Trick
Hoopa-U: the new slowest viable Choice Scarfer in the (post-HOME) OU meta. With a Choice Scarf, it/he outspeeds Dragapult and OHKOs it (unless Pult Teras away from Ghost), so that's good enough for a Scarfer.
Psychic OHKOs Great Tusk unless it Teras, which is why you don't run Zen Headbutt on the Scarfer instead.
Drain Punch at least does something against Dark-types and also heals off chip damage. Sadly, it doesn't guaranteed OHKO Kingambit, while Focus Blast does as long as it connects.
Trick cripples a wall that can take any of your attacks, such as Garganacl.
Tera Fighting boosts Drain Punch/Focus Blast and grants a significantly better defensive typing, notably granting resistances to U-turn and Stealth Rock.
Hoopa-U has fantastic special bulk (the legendary past-gen calc is surviving a Specs Latios Draco Meteor), so just take the Defense L instead and go Hasty.
Calcs are below:
Hoopa-U having only 80 base Speed instead of Chi-Yu's 100 really bites if you want to use anything other than the Scarfer, though. You speed tie with Dragonite (oh wait, Dragonite Extreme Speeds), and now, various mons in the 81-90 speed tiers get to outspeed you and either OHKO you or deal grievous damage (including fellow HOME travellers like Samurott-H). Needing to wish for Heatran/Skeledirge/defensive Rotom-W/Torkoal/Pelipper/etc. as entry points against more offensive teams is not going to be pleasant. And yes, some of those calcs are in the calcs section above.
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psychic
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Trick
Hoopa-U: the new slowest viable Choice Scarfer in the (post-HOME) OU meta. With a Choice Scarf, it/he outspeeds Dragapult and OHKOs it (unless Pult Teras away from Ghost), so that's good enough for a Scarfer.
Psychic OHKOs Great Tusk unless it Teras, which is why you don't run Zen Headbutt on the Scarfer instead.
Drain Punch at least does something against Dark-types and also heals off chip damage. Sadly, it doesn't guaranteed OHKO Kingambit, while Focus Blast does as long as it connects.
Trick cripples a wall that can take any of your attacks, such as Garganacl.
Tera Fighting boosts Drain Punch/Focus Blast and grants a significantly better defensive typing, notably granting resistances to U-turn and Stealth Rock.
Hoopa-U has fantastic special bulk (the legendary past-gen calc is surviving a Specs Latios Draco Meteor), so just take the Defense L instead and go Hasty.
Calcs are below:
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 510-602 (117.5 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 398-470 (126.3 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 486-572 (153.3 - 180.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 328-388 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 632-744 (171.2 - 201.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 384-452 (93.4 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (30.2 - 35.8% recovered)
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 181-214 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Enamorus: 186-220 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 127-150 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 468-552 (161.9 - 191%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 219-258 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grass Protean Meowscarada: 255-301 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 58.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 199-235 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 133-157 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 158-186 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 172-204 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Rotom-Wash: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 229-270 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 205-243 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 138-163 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 207-244 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 240-283 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 262-309 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 254-302 (84.3 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Pelipper U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 304-360 (100.9 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 360-424 (119.6 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 160-189 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 266-315 (88.3 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 331-391 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 76-90 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 112-133 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 99-117 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 247-292 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Garganacl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 121-143 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 196-232 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Torkoal Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound in Sun: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound in Rain: 111-132 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 398-470 (126.3 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 486-572 (153.3 - 180.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 328-388 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 632-744 (171.2 - 201.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 384-452 (93.4 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (30.2 - 35.8% recovered)
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 181-214 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Enamorus: 186-220 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 127-150 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 468-552 (161.9 - 191%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 219-258 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grass Protean Meowscarada: 255-301 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 58.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 199-235 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 133-157 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 158-186 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 172-204 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Rotom-Wash: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 229-270 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 205-243 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 138-163 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 207-244 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 240-283 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 262-309 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 254-302 (84.3 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Pelipper U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 304-360 (100.9 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 360-424 (119.6 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 160-189 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 266-315 (88.3 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 331-391 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 76-90 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 112-133 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 99-117 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 247-292 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Garganacl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 121-143 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 196-232 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Torkoal Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound in Sun: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound in Rain: 111-132 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hoopa-U having only 80 base Speed instead of Chi-Yu's 100 really bites if you want to use anything other than the Scarfer, though. You speed tie with Dragonite (oh wait, Dragonite Extreme Speeds), and now, various mons in the 81-90 speed tiers get to outspeed you and either OHKO you or deal grievous damage (including fellow HOME travellers like Samurott-H). Needing to wish for Heatran/Skeledirge/defensive Rotom-W/Torkoal/Pelipper/etc. as entry points against more offensive teams is not going to be pleasant. And yes, some of those calcs are in the calcs section above.
That moment when a 4x super effective move from a Pokemon tied for the 2nd highest attack stat in the GAME (just below Calyrex-Ice and technically Zacian) can't OHKO an offensive Pokemon with barely any investment (gen 9 definitely didn't introduce excessive power creep no way)
Do you guys think Garchomp 
would be in a better position if it had access to Scale Shot, like it did in Gen 8? would an offensive garchomp with an ability to boost its speed be a threat in the meta?
what about DD? if chomp could remedy its mediocre speed buy boosting it like other dragons, would it be a lot more dominant? it’d lack the instant power of Baxcalibur, the bulk (multiscale) + priority which dragonite has, and the booster energy dragons (Roaring Moon + Walking Wake) could outspeed it in sun / at +1.
would be in a better position if it had access to Scale Shot, like it did in Gen 8? would an offensive garchomp with an ability to boost its speed be a threat in the meta?what about DD? if chomp could remedy its mediocre speed buy boosting it like other dragons, would it be a lot more dominant? it’d lack the instant power of Baxcalibur, the bulk (multiscale) + priority which dragonite has, and the booster energy dragons (Roaring Moon + Walking Wake) could outspeed it in sun / at +1.
Do you guys think Garchomp
what about DD? if chomp could remedy its mediocre speed buy boosting it like other dragons, would it be a lot more dominant? it’d lack the instant power of Baxcalibur, the bulk (multiscale) + priority which dragonite has, and the booster energy dragons (Roaring Moon + Walking Wake) could outspeed it in sun / at +1.
Probably. This is the generation with loaded dice, right? If it is, then it would really help scale shot. As someone who loved to spam scale shot Garchomp last gen, it is absolute bullshit when you only hit two scales and take 50% unnecessary Landorus earthquake damage
With dd, I can just imagine Garchomp being a very strong threat, as long as whatever that Donphan pokemon is called is very weakened. While Garchomp isn't that difficult to deal with, the real danger comes with tera and how it can use any tera type to its advantage, gain a second dd boost and rip apart everything in its path. Moreoever, Garchomp's a pokemon who doesn't have a set item so it can really screw you over with lum berry or something like that. I think what separates Garchomp from other dragon dancers like that new Salamence and Dragonite is its base stabs. Dragon and ground is really good together offensively and I think it's better than dragon + dark or flying. I know dark is a really good type but dragon doesn't compliment it that well imo because you get walled by a single type unless you run coverage moves. Flying is even worse because now every steel walls you and you have to run eq or something
In the end and even though I don't play competitive pokemon anymore and just keep track of the discussions and tournaments from time to time, it's just the start of the generation. I don't particularly care of how Garchomp is really faring right now because all hell is gonna break lose when home and the dlcs come
Also kind of a low-BP moment since it's a Coverage move specifically targetting the stronger bulk of a mon designed around "get hit and hit back." Gen 8 and 9 really emphasized how important Base Power of moves are for damage output even against the Pokemon's own stats.
252 Atk Altaria Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Salamence Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 134-162 (33.1 - 40%) -- approx. 17.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A 1.5x increase in BP compensates literally double the Base ATK stat between two mons. Even on a weakness, Base Power is a hell of a drug. Part of me is both surprised and relieved that Hoopa wasn't one of the several dozen Pokemon that gets Close Combat from TM.
DD Chomp is Uber, and Earth power Volcarona is too, no questionDo you guys think Garchomp
what about DD? if chomp could remedy its mediocre speed buy boosting it like other dragons, would it be a lot more dominant? it’d lack the instant power of Baxcalibur, the bulk (multiscale) + priority which dragonite has, and the booster energy dragons (Roaring Moon + Walking Wake) could outspeed it in sun / at +1.
On the topic of Scale shot, yeah, imagine LD with scale shot
you can do it on NatDex, I dont know how good it is but sounds fun
Anyway ill do some Hoopa-U theorymonning since i have the time
Luckily for us, the gen 7 writers helped a lot this time, so im just gonna update the sets a bit
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Band / Choice ScarfLuckily for us, the gen 7 writers helped a lot this time, so im just gonna update the sets a bit
Ability: Magician
EVs: 32 HP / 224 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Gunk Shot
- Fire Punch /Zen Headbutt
- Drain Punch / Zen Headbutt
All the 32 HP eves are for 2 focus blast from mega zam, even if It's not here, if it can take something that big, I think its gonna be fine
224 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 180-212 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
224 Atk Tera Psychic Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 240-284 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, you don't really need to fuck with mix sets, just get some chip damage and call it a day. You could potentially run trick but be carefull of magician procs
Hoopa-Unbound @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magician
EVs: 32 HP / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
In the gen 7 analyzes, it was running z moves, but we don't have z-moves my guy, so boots it is, it could also be leftovers and or a resist berry, but the coverage seems fine enough
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 32 HP / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Trick / Tunderbolt
The specs set is also kind of fun, be careful with trick + magician procs. Thunderbolt is for bulky waters tho, so I think that's better, Psychic for great Tusk and Psyshock for the pink blobs, and yeah. Special scarf seems cool too to catch shit off guard in a non cringe fashion
If we add tera, I would say Banded/physical scarf benefits more from tera psychic to KO tusk faster and resist fighting and neutral to fairy. Nasty Plot sets would benefit from steel to become toxic immune. And specs/special scarf benefits with electric for waters or fighting with focus blast and maybe even add tera blast
In conclusion, don't run shitty mix sets to """"""""""""lure"""""""""" great tusk, just attack it
I would run grass knot over thunderbolt, it destroys Dozo, Tusk, Garg (tera water too). Sp.def Corviknight gets 2hko with specs dark pulse and rocks/tera dark.DD Chomp is Uber, and Earth power Volcarona is too, no question
On the topic of Scale shot, yeah, imagine LD with scale shot
you can do it on NatDex, I dont know how good it is but sounds fun
Anyway ill do some Hoopa-U theorymonning since i have the timeHoopa-Unbound @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Luckily for us, the gen 7 writers helped a lot this time, so im just gonna update the sets a bit
Ability: Magician
EVs: 32 HP / 224 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Gunk Shot
- Fire Punch /Zen Headbutt
- Drain Punch / Zen Headbutt
All the 32 HP eves are for 2 focus blast from mega zam, even if It's not here, if it can take something that big, I think its gonna be fine
224 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 180-212 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
224 Atk Tera Psychic Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 240-284 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, you don't really need to fuck with mix sets, just get some chip damage and call it a day. You could potentially run trick but be carefull of magician procs
Hoopa-Unbound @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magician
EVs: 32 HP / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
In the gen 7 analyzes, it was running z moves, but we don't have z-moves my guy, so boots it is, it could also be leftovers and or a resist berry, but the coverage seems fine enough
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 32 HP / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Trick / Tunderbolt
The specs set is also kind of fun, be careful with trick + magician procs. Thunderbolt is for bulky waters tho, so I think that's better, Psychic for great Tusk and Psyshock for the pink blobs, and yeah. Special scarf seems cool too to catch shit off guard in a non cringe fashion
If we add tera, I would say Banded/physical scarf benefits more from tera psychic to KO tusk faster and resist fighting and neutral to fairy. Nasty Plot sets would benefit from steel to become toxic immune. And specs/special scarf benefits with electric for waters or fighting with focus blast and maybe even add tera blast
In conclusion, don't run shitty mix sets to """"""""""""lure"""""""""" great tusk, just attack it
DD Chomp is not Uber for me, arguably it's harder to RK a +2 (-1 Def) Chomp after it used SD + Scale Shot than to switch some check while Chomp uses Dragon Dance. It would be a top Tier threat, but very far from broken.
One cool set that I have tried like a month ago is Restalk + EQ + Dragon Tail Chomp, with Max HP/Def and Rocky Helmet. It needs Rocks from another Mon and Knock Off support too to disable lefties and Boots, but the amount of passive damage (which also will infuriate and cause some forfeit of weak mind people) such a set does over the course of a game is inmense.
One cool set that I have tried like a month ago is Restalk + EQ + Dragon Tail Chomp, with Max HP/Def and Rocky Helmet. It needs Rocks from another Mon and Knock Off support too to disable lefties and Boots, but the amount of passive damage (which also will infuriate and cause some forfeit of weak mind people) such a set does over the course of a game is inmense.
https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/chesnaught-is-coming-to-tera-raid-battles
Great Tusk shivering in his boots
Great Tusk shivering in his boots
Waiting on that 1LDK Chesnaught hype post
Apparently unpopular opinion, but neither DD nor Scale Shot Chomp would be a threat, just because the dragons we have already do what it wants to do. Dragonite has multiscale + priority, Bax has better dragon STAB, an immunity to burn, and can also do the Loaded Dice thing with Icicle Spear, and Roaring Moon can use Booster Energy + Acrobatics to become almost unwallable. What can Chomp do to differentiate itself? Sure, it can become threatening with EQ after a dragon dance, but it can't break past Bozo like Bax can and doesn't outspeed Booster Energy Valiant after a Dragon Dance like Moon. It can threaten Kingambit and Gholdengo better than Bax, but putting aside both being prime Tera abusers, it can do this while also doing something the other dragons can't do: spread chip damage with Rough Skin and Rocky Helmet and vomiting hazards with its Chain Chomp set.
- Status