GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread

[Blu]

I think this is ridiculous. Putting garchomp in ubers is a sign of weakness.

Saying that sand veil is a reason to put it into the uber tier is ridiculous. That means that for chomp to be overpowered you must run him in a sandstorm team. I guess that means that Kabutops can become OU if he's in a rain dance team and Regirock can become an uber if he's in a sandstorm team (max special defense x1.5 is over 400 not to mention already masive defense and decent HP).

Don't forget Mixdra in rain

 

[Kira]

I think this is ridiculous. Putting garchomp in ubers is a sign of weakness.

Saying that sand veil is a reason to put it into the uber tier is ridiculous. That means that for chomp to be overpowered you must run him in a sandstorm team. I guess that means that Kabutops can become OU if he's in a rain dance team and Regirock can become an uber if he's in a sandstorm team (max special defense x1.5 is over 400 not to mention already masive defense and decent HP).

Why is it ridiculous? Sandstrom is almost always around, and it is automatically started as opposed to requiring a set-up like rain dance.

In fact that is why rain dance teams are uncommon... Abomasnow and T-tar/Hippowdon (the latter being very common on many teams) ruins them. You cannot compare rain dance to sandstrom until we have a rain starter (not counting Kyogre because he is not allowed in standard games)

An ability can easily make a pokemon uber... I mean look at wobbuffet and wynaut who were banned because of shadow tag..

 

[Magmortified]

I think this is ridiculous. Putting garchomp in ubers is a sign of weakness.

Saying that sand veil is a reason to put it into the uber tier is ridiculous. That means that for chomp to be overpowered you must run him in a sandstorm team. I guess that means that Kabutops can become OU if he's in a rain dance team and Regirock can become an uber if he's in a sandstorm team (max special defense x1.5 is over 400 not to mention already masive defense and decent HP).

Um... no, all you really need to get Sand Veil up is for you or your opponent to have a Tyranitar/Hippowdon. Which are pretty common in their own right.

 

[Twilight_Vaizard]

Why is it ridiculous? Sandstrom is almost always around, and it is automatically started as opposed to requiring a set-up like rain dance.

In fact that is why rain dance teams are uncommon... Abomasnow and T-tar/Hippowdon (the latter being very common on many teams) ruins them. You cannot compare rain dance to sandstrom until we have a rain starter (not counting Kyogre because he is not allowed in standard games)

An ability can easily make a pokemon uber... I mean look at wobbuffet and wynaut who were banned because of shadow tag..

First off, Wynaut isn't banned. It's BL last time I checked. Second, Wobba is in a test phase.

Onto chomp and sandstorm. So you're saying that every team must run sandstorm to make chomp powerful? Last time I checked, an uber is a pokemon that is too strong for OU by itself.

 

[Bogmire]

Max Atk Adamant Garchomp
CB Outrage on Bold Max Def/HP Cressy:
Damage: 207-243
46.62%-54.73%
-Without Sandstorm, Cressy can easily healoff the damage and wait 'till he gets confused or finish Garchomp with Ice beam(If chomp is damaged)

That's the problem, half the garchomp's are paired with hippowdon or tyranitar, moonlight is screwed. and with 252/252 bold ice beam only 2HKOs

Max Atk Adamant Garchomp
CB Outrage on Impish/Relaxed Max Def/HP Hippowdon:
Damage: 209-246
49.76%-58.57%
-Slack off's recovery isn't affected by the weather, so it recovers 50% HP no matter what. 50%+6% from leftovers walls Outrage, just stall untill he's confused then Ice Fang when he hits himself.

Let's say you switch in on cb outrage then you take max damage then you recover with leftovers but you still only have 48% health, you're dead the next turn. If you get lucky and it doesn't hit on the high end of the damage spectrum and you can slack off and it's confused then I hope you're lucky with ice fang's 75% accuracy and it's only a 2HKO so garchomp may not hurt itself or it may even snap out of confusion then finish you with more outrages while you keep missing with ice fang. It's a very shaky cbchomp counter. In short I wouldn't feel very comfortable using a "counter" that takes over 50% on the switch, and who's countering move only 2HKOs and misses 25% of the time.

Max Atk Jolly Garchomp
CB Outrage on Bold Max Def/HP Cressy:
Damage: 189-222
42.57%-50.00%
-Not a 2hko ;[
sandstorm screws up moonlight then hope ice beam doesn't miss and it's only a 2hko while you struggle to recover off damage

 

[Jibaku]

Regarding Cress and Hippo

Cresselia. Cresselia is the best Garchomp counter in the game. Unfortuntely, it runs into a fair number of problems itself. First of all, she doesn't have great recovery-Garchomp often comes in a sandstorm, eliminating Moonlight. Rest makes Cress quite unreliable at countering Garchomp, as CBChomp 3HKOes her with ease. Also, Modest Cresselias die to Yache SD Chomp and gets 2HKOed by CB Outrage and Crunch, while Bold versions fail to OHKO and thus risking Cress to stay longer in the game thanks to Sand Veil. Speaking of Sand Veil, Subchomp is very annoying to counter, unless you have Skarmory. Also, Cress is weak to Pursuit

Hippowdon. Hippo is a great counter to both the CB and Scarf versions, but it utterly DIES to SD and Chain versions. Ice Fang does not kill it in one huit, whereas Chomp can 2HKO Hippo with SDed Quake. Not to mention how much Draco Meteor hurts Hippowdon.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

First off, Wynaut isn't banned. It's BL last time I checked. Second, Wobba is in a test phase.

Onto chomp and sandstorm. So you're saying that every team must run sandstorm to make chomp powerful? Last time I checked, an uber is a pokemon that is too strong for OU by itself.

Battling isn't about solitary Pokemon, it's about Pokemon working as teams. Plus, there's Sandstorms up in most OU battles. A Sandstorm is a natural factor of OU battling. If there was a Pokemon whose stats all doubled in a Sandstorm, and he already had OU stats, I'm sure that'd be banned.

You're right about the fact that Garchomp doesn't need a Sandstream to be good though.

 

[Kira]

First off, Wynaut isn't banned. It's BL last time I checked. Second, Wobba is in a test phase.

Onto chomp and sandstorm. So you're saying that every team must run sandstorm to make chomp powerful? Last time I checked, an uber is a pokemon that is too strong for OU by itself.

Actually I dont think so. I have Ice Shard on one of my teams... Ice shard rapes Rayquaza so Rayquaza cannot dominate OU by itself... I guess Rayquaza should move to OU then.

Also Deoxys-Defense cannot singlehandedly destroy everything in OU by itself, so I guess he should me moves to OU?

 

[Magmortified]

Onto chomp and sandstorm. So you're saying that every team must run sandstorm to make chomp powerful? Last time I checked, an uber is a pokemon that is too strong for OU by itself.

Wobbuffet, anybody? Most effective when paired with something else, y'know.

And Sandstorm is so abundant in OU anyways that Garchomp practically does stand by itself. Besides, it's not easy to take in its own right, Sandstorm just makes beating it a total gamble.

 

[Forsety]

First of all, revenge-killers get a solid 80% chance(?) to OHKO,

Am I missing something here? Usually 'solid' indicates its surefire which is 100%.

Secondly, there's moves called Sunny Day and Rain Dance, or a Pokemon called Abomasnow, if you really hate Sand Veil that much.

You've missed the point, Sand Veil is the icing on the cake. But disregarding that anyway.

Last I checked Sandstorm has 2 powerful free automatic setups available in OU wheras Sunny Day and Rain have ZERO setups in OU. Therefore it stands to reason the main setups would be manual automatically ruling them out. Abomasnow constantly risks either eating Fire Fang/Fire Blast or getting annihilated by a simple Dragon Claw.

Who exactly is going to setup while being slapped by 130 atk STAB EQ's and Dragon Claws?

If you're going to argue Sand Veil, you might as well ban Gliscor, because it has excellent defenses, 95 Base Speed, and has the ability to pass Swords Dances and Substitutes.

95atk vs 130atk
Because quite obviously 95 attack + 95 speed before SD is so much more threatening than 130 atk + 102 speed with a near unresisted double STAB.


Here a little interesting thought process I went through during team building was to compare Garchomp to the original Uber Mewtwo. (I'm sure I mentioned I use Garchomp as a base for my EV spreads and damage calcs). I'm not sure how many people even realise this, but Garchomps raw defenses are comparable to even Mewtwo which is no slouch. Except Mewtwo has more type weaknesses.

106HP vs 108HP
90def vs 95def
90sdef vs 85

286 total defense vs 288 total defense, oh hey what do you know? Garchomp is bulkier than Mewtwo and Rayquaza!(Rayquaza has 1 less HP) Now to add onto that you only have a 80% chance of hitting it!

I'm sure many argue Mewtwo has 154 s.atk and I considered this too so for fun. I compared their damage on a 0/0 neutral Giratina having equal defenses and type neutrality and generally being a fat bastard.

Mewtwo STAB Psychic 252 Modest-
36.05% - 42.40%

Garchomp STAB Earthquake 252 Adamant-
35.15% - 41.50%

Oh dear...not much difference in their attacking prowess either. Of course this is a silly thought since Mewtwo still enjoys 130 speed. But Garchomps 102 speed is still sufficient enough to do the job though consider Mewtwo only has access to CM and Garchomp to SD...

In short not only do you instantly risk being swept, you risk missing and on top of that even if you hit you're not even guaranteed a OHKO. Yes he does have a 4x weakness but consider this too.

The minimum to ALWAYS OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam is 245-251 s.atk. 266 is recommended to avoid slightly bulkier versions.

For Ice Punch you'd need 375-380 attack to reach the same killing effectiveness. I don't even have to point out how few get that kind of attack. Its not necessary since usually 50% killing effectiveness is enough to do the job, but you'd still need to be base 110 minimum to reach this...

 

[Jibaku]

Beating Chomp has always been a gamble no matter what. Your usual Choice Chomp counters can easily die to other Chomp variants

 

[Mr.Squishy007]

-Salamence
-Tyranitar
-Zapdos
-Heatran
-Metagross
-Slaking
-Gengar
-Gyarados

Tyranitar is the only thing on that list as broken as garchomp is.Everything else is balanced out by stealth rock weakness,bad abilites,common weakness or bad defenses.

 

[Twilight_Vaizard]

Actually I dont think so. I have Ice Shard on one of my teams... Ice shard rapes Rayquaza so Rayquaza cannot dominate OU by itself... I guess Rayquaza should move to OU then.

Also Deoxys-Defense cannot singlehandedly destroy everything in OU by itself, so I guess he should me moves to OU?

Maybe I worded it wrong. I meant that you guys are saying that chomp is too overpowered if it's in a sandstorm team, which means that every team must run a Tyranitar or Hippowdon to support it. The other ubers do not need other pokemon to function well by themselves. For example, you don't need rain dance team to support a Palkia even though it benefits from it.

 

[Magmortified]

For example, you don't need rain dance team to support a Palkia even though it benefits from it.

Replace Rain Dance with Sand Storm and Palkia with Garchomp and you basically have things as they are. =P

 

[ultimifier]

WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE UBERS... you cannot compare garchomp to ubers saying that it isn't as good as the UBERS. we are stating whether or not garchomp is too good for OU, not if it is as good as the UBER pokemon.

read the first couple pages of this thread man

 

[Kira]

Maybe I worded it wrong. I meant that you guys are saying that chomp is too overpowered if it's in a sandstorm team, which means that every team must run a Tyranitar or Hippowdon to support it. The other ubers do not need other pokemon to function well by themselves. For example, you don't need rain dance team to support a Palkia even though it benefits from it.

So should we simply ban any pokemon that starts sandstorm Because that is the real problem here. If it werent for Sand Veil then Garchomp would be OU 100%.

 

[Jibaku]

So should we simply ban any pokemon that starts sandstorm Because that is the real problem here. If it werent for Sand Veil then Garchomp would be OU 100%.

I'm pretty sure the reason why Garchomp is not 100% OU is because of its power and unpredictability. If it's for Sand Veil, then Dugtrio and Cacturne should be uber.

 

[Pneuma]

There is something to be said that if we can make an equivalence relationship between Chomp's utility and the "uber" utility and show they are indeed the same, we can then call him uber.

It's not about how he plays IN ubers.
It's how he plays LIKE an uber.




Important distinction. @_@

 

[sanjay120]

Wait what.

Why the hell are you comparing Cacturne/Duggy to Garchomp. They can't take a hit to abuse Sand Veil, Cacturne doesn't have the speed to Sub up, Duggy doesn't have SD or the attacking power to Sub up. It's not 'Sand Veil is uber', it's 'Sand Veil makes Garchomp uber'.

 

[Viashino_wizard]

I'm pretty sure Jibaku knows that. In fact, that might be why he used them as an example of why Sand Veil isn't the sole reason Garchomp is too powerful for OU.

 

[Rhykune]

I don't know where my opinion lies. I use a CB Garchomp, and it's not like it's the only reason I ever when. With good prediction skills, any Garchomp can be countered. Except Sand Veil Brightpowder... but that fails to umm... Bronzong's Gyro Ball.

 

[Kira]

I don't know where my opinion lies. I use a CB Garchomp, and it's not like it's the only reason I ever when. With good prediction skills, any Garchomp can be countered. Except Sand Veil Brightpowder... but that fails to umm... Bronzong's Gyro Ball.

Not if it misses... in fact I hate BP chomp. I use 1 pokemon to break it's sub (if I get lucky and hit chomp), and then I send in Gengar (scarf) with HP Ice... it should 1hko but I usually miss because of sand veil hax... so basically even my 100% counter to chomp cannot effectively counter him.

 

[obi]

You can't ban Sand Veil because it's impossible to use several Pokemon without it. You can ban those Pokemon or the move Sandstorm, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, but not Sand Veil directly.

 

[ikke]

why would that thing be anything other then OU?

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

You can't ban Sand Veil because it's impossible to use several Pokemon without it. You can ban those Pokemon or the move Sandstorm, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, but not Sand Veil directly.

It won't matter too much, really. It forces Gliscor to run Hyper Cutter (stat-passers already do) and Dugtrio to run Arena Trap (what Duggy DOESN'T run Arena Trap?) while excluding Garchomp and two UUs, Cacturne and Sandslash. Yeah, I wouldn't regret that move in the least.

Hey Colin! If you're reading this, why don't you ban Garchomp from ladder play for at least a month after Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet are fully tested? That should settle this once and for all. (I'd like to think so...)