GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread

[1059860]

To ikke: Having a Donphan with Ice Shard on every team = overcentralizing
To noob3: (A) You can't switch Weavile in ANY of its attacks. (B) Um, Expert Belt Weavile can't kill an Impish Garchomp with just some HP/Def spread, consider it has base 108 HP and Base 90 Defense. (C) How is that not overcentralizing the game? Either that thing or Donphan is required on every team... That's overcentralizing. So basically if I don't have that on my team basically I'm screwed. Right? Even if you factoring Mamoswine in, the population of Donphan, Weavile and Mamoswine still only make up 3/493 Pokemon. That's overcentralizing.

 

[xcfrisco]

in OU?the best is donphan IMO
good defence and ice shard :P

Donphan takes 45-53% from CB EQ and 54-63% from Outrage.

I love it when counters gets 2hko'd. Meanwhile Donphan's Ice Shard only does 41-48% to Garchomp with no defensive EV's. If you have CB, then it does 61-73%. If Donphan is the best counter, then wow, Garchomp would be on every team.

 

[Kira]

in OU?the best is donphan IMO
good defence and ice shard :P

Of course... so meanwhile it 2HKO's you. you miss once and you die.... or it 2hko's you, you hit it which fails to KO it even with CB... and it still lives.

What an amazing counter, it can take away half it's life and die in 2 hits from Garchomp. So it cant even switch in safely. That is amazing.

And yep, we should all carry Donphan on our team because that isn't over-centralizing the metagame at all.

And weaville is even better. I mean with it's paper bag defenses it can switch into anything garchomp throws at it and die in 1 hit. so if you use focus sash you might get lucky enough to hit it or break it's sub.


Really I dont see the problem with just fucking testing it.

 

[1059860]

Donphan takes 45-53% from CB EQ and 54-63% from Outrage.

I love it when counters gets 2hko'd. Meanwhile Donphan's Ice Shard only does 41-48% to Garchomp with no defensive EV's. If you have CB, then it does 61-73%. If Donphan is the best counter, then wow, Garchomp would be on every team.

Keep Agility Metagross on you team, just for CB Donphans, Weaviles, etc. Not to mention that Metagross takes no damage from SS, also Garchomp and Metagross resist some of each other's weaknesses.

 

[Qyyu]

how about choice scarf Machamp with ice punch/dynamic punch? then again garchomp is still faster than Machamp with a choice scarf naturally, so ya Machamp would need some kind of set up before a Garchomp comes out, even though the idea I just brought up for this Garchomp counter is meant to come in on it.... ; ~ ; Nintendo should have made more No Gaurd pokes. You people only think about OU counter's to Garchomp, you shouldn't just limit yourself to those because OU pokemon are still countered by BL and even the UU pokes.

 

[1059860]

how about choice scarf Machamp with ice punch/dynamic punch? then again garchomp is still faster than Machamp with a choice scarf naturally, so ya Machamp would need some kind of set up before a Garchomp comes out, even though the idea I just brought up for this Garchomp counter is meant to come in on it.... ; ~ ; Nintendo should have made more No Gaurd pokes. You people only think about OU counter's to Garchomp, you shouldn't just limit yourself to those because OU pokemon are still countered by BL and even the UU pokes.

Any fast No Guard pokes would be Uber.

 

[Qyyu]

I guess that would be true, what would have been nice if is Machamp was just a little bit faster, maybe base 60 - 70 so that the choice scarf version could get Garchomp and other pokes that abuse their evasion ability. I guess Lucario with scarf + aura sphere then? Also Froslass is faster than Garchomp, it's just as fast as Gengar.

Also I see the second option "It can be Easily countered" as kinda saying DON'T VOTE ME OR WE'LL HATE YOU.

As for a Garchomp counter, Hail. A Hail team that takes out the main Sandstreamer for an ss team will ruin garchomp's evasion ability and stop it's efforts with stallrein. Trick room hinders Garchomp too.

 

[ikke]

how about choice scarf Machamp with ice punch/dynamic punch? then again garchomp is still faster than Machamp with a choice scarf naturally, so ya Machamp would need some kind of set up before a Garchomp comes out, even though the idea I just brought up for this Garchomp counter is meant to come in on it.... ; ~ ; Nintendo should have made more No Gaurd pokes. You people only think about OU counter's to Garchomp, you shouldn't just limit yourself to those because OU pokemon are still countered by BL and even the UU pokes.

this is why I always want to use one BL/UU poke in my team
really unexpected
nobody gets a 'frosslas counter' in their team,
can anyone calculate what a specslas ice beam does to garchomp?

 

[xcfrisco]

, you shouldn't just limit yourself to those because OU pokemon are still countered by BL and even the UU pokes.

The best defensive pokes are found in OU though (Shuckle is the only exception). So if we're trying to figure out the best counter to Garchomp, naturally, we'd look towards OU pokemon.

Heck Steelix, Aggron, and Bastiodon all take garbage from Outrage/Dragon Claw but get owned really hard by EQ. There are countless examples of pokemon like this in UU/BL, defensive grass pokes take little damge fom EQ, etc.

Heatproof Skarmory would probably be only way the only way to counter Chomp, he's that good.

this is why I always want to use one BL/UU poke in my team
really unexpected
nobody gets a 'frosslas counter' in their team,
can anyone calculate what a specslas ice beam does to garchomp?

No one has to calculate, Garchomp is getting OHKO'd by most any Ice pokemon with a reliable Ice move and a Choice item. Problem is, all these pokemon have a lot of trouble switching into Garchomp and/or get boned by Stealth Rock.

 

[Kira]

Again: We shoudnt be forced to use X pokemon just to counter Garchomp, or Y moveset just to counter him. That is the definition of over-centralizing the metagame.

 

[1059860]

You guys are now all focusing on putting like 3 things either ice or defensive to counter this 1 Garchomp. Remember, I still have 5 more Pokes on this team, such as Agility-Metagross, Starmie, whatever whatever, etc.

 

[umbarsc]

Again: We shoudnt be forced to use X pokemon just to counter Garchomp, or Y moveset just to counter him. That is the definition of over-centralizing the metagame.

We need to use Cresselia or Milotic to counter MixMence, uber? It is even arguably more dangerous due to its easier switch-ins with Intimidate and Roost. Draco Meteor is insanely powerful, even without the Specs boost, and if you don't outright resist it or have a lot of SpD, you're more than likely to be OHKO'd. Plus the best of special walls (Blissey, Snorlax, Regice) are weak to Brick Break.

 

[obi]

Except once Salamence uses Draco Meteor, both it and Flamethrower are at half strength. With Garchomp, it often goes the opposite way (double its Attack instead of halve its Special Attack). Remember that STAB Earthquake is about as strong as SE Brick Break.

 

[The Shadow Knight]

Again: We shoudnt be forced to use X pokemon just to counter Garchomp, or Y moveset just to counter him. That is the definition of over-centralizing the metagame.

Any given team can be weak to a specific pokémon or a specfic set, it's not because you need a counter for a specific pokémon or set that the pokémon or set in question is overcentralizing the metagame.
A decent OU team has to have an answer to any possible threat and Garchomp is just one of the many OU threats. If you don't carry a counter for Garchomp your team will fail, if you don't carry a counter for Heracross your team will fail etc.

 

[xcfrisco]

I think some of the arguments in here about garchomp over-centralizing the metagame are faulty. The title to most over-centralizing force is Blissey, who makes the Special Attack stat practically worthless, but thats for another topic.

Garchomp centralizes the metagame AND he is broken.

 

[Kira]

Not true.. I have no specific Hera counter but I manage to beat him all the time.

If every single team in the world nees a Garchomp counter then that proves that he over-centralizes the metagame. And right now you do need a garchomp counter to win and with sand veil even that is not enough, because one miss and you are fucked.

I mean because he has great defenses you basically need an ice attack to kill it. And even then, you need 296 sp. attack to kill it with an unstabed ice beam.

Blissey does not over-centralize the metagame because not every team uses pure Sp.attacks. I mean every good team needs at least one physical attacker and there are other special wall besides blissey. Plus with the ncrease power of Sp. Attacks this gen, blissey is almost essential. People do not built there team with "Blissey counters"

She is hardly over-centralizing. Just unoriginal.

 

[1059860]

266, not 296, but that only applies to neutral SDef natured 0/0 HP/SDef EV Garchomp.

Also, Blissey's low base 10 Defense can be killed with anything such as Ttar, Mence, or unexpected mix sweepers. Although Dugtrio completely owns it, many others can kill Blissey as well, as long it has a physical attack that is strong.

And Kira, what do you use against Heracross? Just wondering...

 

[Qyyu]

what's so bad about over-centralization though? People always pack an ice move, not just for garchomp, but for dragons, grass types, and flying types, and ground types. Boltbeam combos hit enough pokes for super effective or neutral damage anyways.

The fact that Garchomp and Gyarados are either very common of available in both d/p just means that these powerful pokemon are available to people without the other games and are open for beginners. What we are doing is taking away something else that is not available to people without the ADV generation games.

Instead of me posting why I think Game Freak would put something that overcentralizes the game I'll ask the people what they think.

Why do you think Game Freak would make soemthing that overcentralizes the game?

^you can't say "because they wanted to" a company will not make something that is ever broken, that's the grand rule.

Also you can't say "because Game Freak doesn't care about broken pokemon"
They will never make something that is enough to be a one man army. They have beta-testers to find out whether a pokemon is too game breaking and OU because its broken enough to kill everything. If Game Freak kept something like that in the game they would file the poke under this is UBER people, so we'll make sure to treat is as one and ban it in competition.

How can you treat something that is OU as UBER if the very game itself treats Garchomp as a normal pokemon. Cynthia...elite four champion uses Garchomp, does that mean she's using an UBER? If she was using an UBER, she'd pack Dialga, Palkia and other UBERs.

 

[Kira]

Well against Hera I basically try to outpredict it. I lead with Roserade and set up t-spikes. Two layers is the best but one will still cause 12% loss per turn.

If Hera switches in to say.... snorlax, I switch to gengar. CC misses and 12% is knocked off it's life. Then I can simply switch out to skarm later and set up spikes. Hera will have to perfectly predict me to avoid dying from toxic damage.

Also once it manages to kill one of my pokemon then I can switch in Lucario and use Extremspeed for revenge killing.

With Garchomp however this is harder to do because while toxic damage does help I still cant make it switch out, take spike damage, KO it with Lucario, break it's sub without missing and dying myself. etc....


Edit: To the person above me: Wow, are you stupid? If we all have to have a counter to Garchomp then it is obviously broken. Over-Centralization just means that you always need to have a counter to it. Garchomp however has no "real" counters since most die in 2 hits and Gar can hide behind a sub. If it is that over-centralizing then it is too powerful for OU.

That is the fucking problem with over-centralizing.

Also you cant fucking compare the in-game pokemon with competitive pokemon. Cynthia would not use all ubers because of that...
and gamefreak doesnt really care about competitive battling. I mean they made Arceus which dominates even in ubers. I mean that is so unbalanced.

Also they treated Wobbuffet as a regular pokemon and he was uber for I think 2 generations, and he might still be uber.

 

[The Shadow Knight]

Not true.. I have no specific Hera counter but I manage to beat him all the time.

If every single team in the world needed a Garchomp counter then that proves that he over-centralizes the metagame.

I mean because he has great defenses you basically need an ice attack to kill it. And even then, you need 296 sp. attack to kill it with an unstabed ice beam.

Yes, but most Chomp counters are quite easily integrated into most teams as they usually are Pokémon that can serve other purposes whils't countering Chomp. I personally can't imagine that my teams would be that much different if Garchomp wouldn't be around. You'd still need something to counter other dragons or other set-up sweepers.

(sidenote: Tyranitar sort of served the same role last gen, he was everywhere and you had to pack a counter)

 

[1059860]

what's so bad about over-centralization though? People always pack an ice move, not just for garchomp, but for dragons, grass types, and flying types, and ground types. Boltbeam combos hit enough pokes for super effective or neutral damage anyways.

The fact that Garchomp and Gyarados are either very common of available in both d/p just means that these powerful pokemon are available to people without the other games and are open for beginners. What we are doing is taking away something else that is not available to people without the ADV generation games.

Instead of me posting why I think Game Freak would put something that overcentralizes the game I'll ask the people what they think.

Why do you think Game Freak would make soemthing that overcentralizes the game?

^you can't say "because they wanted to" a company will not make something that is ever broken, that's the grand rule.

Also you can't say "because Game Freak doesn't care about broken pokemon"
They will never make something that is enough to be a one man army. They have beta-testers to find out whether a pokemon is too game breaking and OU because its broken enough to kill everything. If Game Freak kept something like that in the game they would file the poke under this is UBER people, so we'll make sure to treat is as one and ban it in competition.

How can you treat something that is OU as UBER if the very game itself treats Garchomp as a normal pokemon. Cynthia...elite four champion uses Garchomp, does that mean she's using an UBER? If she was using an UBER, she'd pack Dialga, Palkia and other UBERs.

Why did GameFreak make Wobbuffet then?
And also, Cynthia doesn't have Sub/SD on her Garchomp, not to mention the horrible Giga Impact, which gives Garchomp 1 turn stale for Ice Beam/Punch/Shard/Blizzard. And the most important thing, Cynthia's Garchomp isn't Sand Veiled... There's no Sandstormer.

 

[Brawley]

Not true.. I have no specific Hera counter but I manage to beat him all the time.

If every single team in the world nees a Garchomp counter then that proves that he over-centralizes the metagame. And right now you do need a garchomp counter to win and with sand veil even that is not enough, because one miss and you are fucked.

I mean because he has great defenses you basically need an ice attack to kill it. And even then, you need 296 sp. attack to kill it with an unstabed ice beam.

Blissey does not over-centralize the metagame because not every team uses pure Sp.attacks. I mean every good team needs at least one physical attacker and there are other special wall besides blissey. Plus with the ncrease power of Sp. Attacks this gen, blissey is almost essential. People do not built there team with "Blissey counters"

She is hardly over-centralizing. Just unoriginal.

All teams need a gyarados counter, does that mean it's uber?

 

[evolutia]

I was glancing at this thread and it seems those who are coming up with reasons why Garchomp should stay OU are only picking out one part of Garchomp and ignoring the rest.

Garchomp has Excellent defensive and offensive stats. Garchomp is a top tier OU pokemon so much so that it topped the mightly Blissey for the 1# Overused pokemon in the game. Garchomps STAB combo of Ground/Dragon is almost unresisted. Sand Veil with SS only boosts Garchomp futher by making pokemon that are supposed to counter him miss. Has a plethora of many powerful sets that can mess up counters coming in and expecting another.

So can anyone elaborate on why people only choose one part of Garchomp to give an opinion on and ignore the rest when saying it should stay in OU?

 

[xcfrisco]

Why do you think Game Freak would make soemthing that overcentralizes the game?

Are you really questioning Game Freak's inherent balance making abilities? There's a pokemon called Arceus programmed into the game that is the best pokemon ever. Game Freak didn't design OU, Smogon and a lot of websites did. They have practically no hand in determining whats OU and whats not, since many pokemon websites will try to ban these over-centralizing forces to make pokemon a competitive game.

Also, Blissey's low base 10 Defense can be killed with anything such as Ttar, Mence, or unexpected mix sweepers. Although Dugtrio completely owns it, many others can kill Blissey as well, as long it has a physical attack that is strong.

Dont post such narrowly scoped argument. Blissey has 255 base hp to back up that defense and the EV system makes a HUGE difference to what kind of hits it can take. Blissey doesn't have to sweep teams for it to centralize an ENTIRE metagame (which it does). A lot of pokemon centralize the metagame, thats why there arent threads on every single good pokemon out there.

Garchomp centralizes the metagame AND he's broken.

All teams need a gyarados counter, does that mean it's uber?

Gyarados isn't broken and suffers from moveslot syndrome.

 

[Kira]

All teams need a gyarados counter, does that mean it's uber?

Gyara does not have the almost unresisted combo of STAB dragon and ground type attacks. He does not have Fire Fang to kill Skarmory or bronzong. He is raped by Stealth Rock.