Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Does anyone else think that Tera Blast (the move) might need to go? The earlier tera suspect seemed to skim over the fact that gen 9 gave every mon an 80bp stab move of any type they want because not many mons ran it. In the home meta there's been a couple that abuse tera blast. Most notably, the move made refineries instantly broken by giving it ice coverage. I just had a battle where volcarona (which is on the tiering radar) one shotted my heatran (which is otherwise a hard counter) with ground tera blast. It makes me wonder if giving every mon good coverage can destabilize a meta based around checks and counters.
They didn't skim over it, it's simply not a good overall move on most pokemon. Regieleki not withstanding, there just aren't that many abusers of the move. If you don't Tera with it, its just an 80 bp normal move, which clogs space for move sets. It's "good" to act as coverage, only if you are commiting your tera to that mon. Tera blast is a poor mans hidden power.
The only thing on the radar I would actually be a bit mad if it got hit now is Ursaluna.
Seconded, this mon is something that TR has needed for a long time. The bear is very powerful outside of TR as well, but not nearly as much.
 
> switched in on full hazards
> survives stab earth power from fully invested 135 SpA
> survives STAB close combat from fully invested 130 Atk due to the Tera type
> disrespectful KO with stored power (40BP) just to flex that they could
> disrespectfully still in OU just to show that it can

View attachment 522597
Enamorus just doesn't feel like an OU mon, it is Valiant at home lacking a lot of tools that Valiant has.
 
Mag is the only thing making the meta unplayable.

it has too many options!

at least if the dogs, sneasler, urshifu and CP stay, they’re a little more predictable. Although it would be nice if CP and at least one dog were to go.

Personally I’m fine with a longer process after mag and maybe CP go.

any bets on outcomes? My guess:

mag - quick ban
CP - quick ban
Zamazenta Crowned - quick ban
Zamazenta Hero - split vote , no ban resukt
Sneasler - split vote, no ban result
Urshifu R - more than 65% vote no ban
Volcarona - more than 65% vote no ban
Light clay - near unanimous no ban, stays on radar

it’s really likely the last two stay OU for at least another few months. Anything above is a coin toss at best. Urshifu in particular is about to run riot.

re: sneasler, curious if covert cloak becomes a meta item again. Garganacl is still great in current meta, especially Tera ghost for shield dog/sneasler
 
Last edited:
Looking forward to some QBs tomorrow. The chaos of a new meta is always fun, but man, at least Mage and Zam Crowed have got to go, and hopefully Chien Pao as well, since we’d lose two of its counters and it’ll start running the meta again. Then this might actually be playable!

————

Anyway, I’m of the opinion Hamurott will need a look when the dust settles.

Obviously there’s a lot more aggressive mons running around that need to go first, but Ceaseless Edge is so dumbly good in a meta lacking consistent hazard control. The move bypasses both Taunt and Hatterene, which is crazy as those would otherwise deny hazards.

The Speedy Sash + Taunt set is so good early game, the only way to ensure no Spikes go up is Band Dragon Darts Dragapult (which loses to Tera Fairy), and then gimmicky sets like Fake Out + CC Sneasler, which is not a terrible set, but Sneasler should be running better sets, or otherwise something dumb and bad like what… Scarf Breloom? :P

You can run a Rocky Helmet + Volt Turn and kill it in one move, but hey, it’s still getting a Spike up. Ham still did work.

Given that Defog and Rapid Spin are denied by hyper offense, and the remaining options of around spikes are Superman team builds or run a stall squad of 6 HBD users.

Or Moushould/Court Change Cinderace, haha.
 
:Enamorus:

Enamorus is by far the most underrated mon from the new batch. And by that I mean that in the category of "It went under the radar, nobody was really expecting much of it or thinking about it but it ended being good", it's likely #1.
It's Physical Bulk after +1 Contrary Superpower is surprisingly good.
It's Fairy/Ground/Fire coverage is surprisingly good.
It has 115 base Atk and 135 base SpAtk!!!
It has Togekiss' typing
It's close to immune to both of Great Tusk's STABs

There is a new SV OU titan and it's name is Enamorus
 
The solution to the meta's issues isn't more bans, its more unbans.

The meta is currently struggling with Entry Hazards, Dual Screens, Volcarona, Urshifu, Zamazenta-C, Zamazenta, and Sneaseler.

Thankfully, unbanning one Pokemon will allow OU to play around all these threats in one slot.

Now is the time to unban Giratina-A..

It will bring many positives to the tier.
+ Defogger to give us more options vs entry hazards and Dual Screens teams outside of Tusk / Brick Break + has a decent MU vs Gholdengo
+ Has a typing perfect to handle Sneaseler, Volcarona, Zamazenta-C, Urshifu, and Zamazenta
+ Dragon Tail + Bulk for phazing vs typically difficult to answer sweepers like the aforementioned Pokemon
+ Will-O-Wisp + T-Wave support to also keep dangerous physical attackers in check

Unlike other Pokemon like Mewtwo and Eternatus, its offensive stats are perfectly in line with the tier. Even Landorus-T has better stats for a special attacker.

Some may argue that Giratina will be too centralizing, but being centralizing doesn't equal broken. We already accept Kingambit and Tusk have 50+% usage. By unbanning Giratina-A, we may be able to address the immediate problems plaging the metagame.

Its defensive stats are high, but nothing out of the ordinary for OU. Ting-Lu has better defenses for example.

This post may get a lot of laugh reacts and responses like "lol I can't believe we are discussing unbanning Giratina-A".

It is true this suggestion may be outlandish. But it is a conversation starter. The fact is that Giratina-A is in a position to solve the metagames most pressing issues. It is an option worth investigating further.
 
What's switching into STAB Moonblast, Earth Power and Mystical Fire? Enamorus has same special attack as Flutter Mane.
FM has better speed tier (super important and why I consider this a worse Valiant) while Enamorus' speed is rather mediocre, ghost is a way better typing (flying gives it a SR weakness too unlike Valiant which resist it) and also proto gave it it the extra damage or speed if needed. Most of the times I have seen this thing in the ladder I always felt like Valiant would have done more.
I just don't see this thing staying in OU for much unless for some reason Valiant gets banned.
 
The solution to the meta's issues isn't more bans, its more unbans.

The meta is currently struggling with Entry Hazards, Dual Screens, Volcarona, Urshifu, Zamazenta-C, Zamazenta, and Sneaseler.

Thankfully, unbanning one Pokemon will allow OU to play around all these threats in one slot.

Now is the time to unban Giratina-A..

It will bring many positives to the tier.
+ Defogger to give us more options vs entry hazards and Dual Screens teams outside of Tusk / Brick Break + has a decent MU vs Gholdengo
+ Has a typing perfect to handle Sneaseler, Volcarona, Zamazenta-C, Urshifu, and Zamazenta
+ Dragon Tail + Bulk for phazing vs typically difficult to answer sweepers like the aforementioned Pokemon
+ Will-O-Wisp + T-Wave support to also keep dangerous physical attackers in check

Unlike other Pokemon like Mewtwo and Eternatus, its offensive stats are perfectly in line with the tier. Even Landorus-T has better stats for a special attacker.

Some may argue that Giratina will be too centralizing, but being centralizing doesn't equal broken. We already accept Kingambit and Tusk have 50+% usage. By unbanning Giratina-A, we may be able to address the immediate problems plaging the metagame.

Its defensive stats are high, but nothing out of the ordinary for OU. Ting-Lu has better defenses for example.

This post may get a lot of laugh reacts and responses like "lol I can't believe we are discussing unbanning Giratina-A".

It is true this suggestion may be outlandish. But it is a conversation starter. The fact is that Giratina-A is in a position to solve the metagames most pressing issues. It is an option worth investigating further.
i agree that gira-a should eventually be tested due to the loss of some of its best stall/utility tools and the addition of a lot of potential answers to it, but let's wait until the meta stabilizes before we drop that particular bombshell. if we test it while the meta is still wildly unbalanced, we won't get an accurate representation of how it would affect things. above all, we should wait until everyone has decided what to do with chien-pao (probably the best answer to gira-a offensively) and tera (gira-a's best asset against pao)
 
Last edited:
I voted ban on Magearna, Chien-Pao, Sneasler, Zamazenta, and Zamazenta-Crowned.

:Magearna: seems pretty clear throughout the community. It was the most straightforward to me as well. The boosting sets are really out of control and able to dictate their own counterplay; Stored Power sets are the most consistent, but even Shift Gear + 3A is awesome, in my opinion. Specs isn’t as good as last generation, but still noteworthy. Utility will be missed as it provides good resists and Spikes, but we can’t just go around salvaging fragments.

:Chien-Pao: is up to its old shenanigans, and arguably just as good as when it got banned. Many thought that some new drops like the aforementioned Magearna and the Zamazenta brigade would make matters harder for Chien-Pao, but they just varied the set mix a tad to incorporate SD + Tera Blast. Regardless of that, the classic Band and Tera Dark LO sets go to town still. It has limited counterplay beyond comfort for me, so I wanted to get rid of it.

:Sneasler: is not as broken as the others, but Dire Claw is ridiculous and makes any ordinary switch to a check or counter a big risk all of a sudden. I don’t see much of a place for this in the game, so I voted ban.

:Zamazenta: and :Zamazenta-Crowned: were close, but I find the addition of Body Press to make them overbearing. They’re almost like really good cheese in a sense that some things can shut them down, but they’re too limited and specific to bulkier archetypes, which we don’t see as much. Shutting them down is hard otherwise and they’re so bulky and fast that makes it really easy to use them.

:Urshifu: was a close call by me, but I think it’s harder to fit onto teams and could use another week. I may revisit my vote next week!

:Ursaluna: is awesome and very hard to counter. I’m not sold on it being broken without a ton of support, and Magearna being banned takes away its best Trick Room teammate. I voted no ban because of this, but I’m very open to voting ban next time if it remains potent.
imo urshifu is just frail enough and more importantly slow enough (we love power creep when 300+ is middling) where *currently* it isn't broken, but my thought is that in the future it will become more obviously broken. we'll see though, and I agree with basically everything you've voted on
 
The solution to the meta's issues isn't more bans, its more unbans.

The meta is currently struggling with Entry Hazards, Dual Screens, Volcarona, Urshifu, Zamazenta-C, Zamazenta, and Sneaseler.

Thankfully, unbanning one Pokemon will allow OU to play around all these threats in one slot.

Now is the time to unban Giratina-A..

It will bring many positives to the tier.
+ Defogger to give us more options vs entry hazards and Dual Screens teams outside of Tusk / Brick Break + has a decent MU vs Gholdengo
+ Has a typing perfect to handle Sneaseler, Volcarona, Zamazenta-C, Urshifu, and Zamazenta
+ Dragon Tail + Bulk for phazing vs typically difficult to answer sweepers like the aforementioned Pokemon
+ Will-O-Wisp + T-Wave support to also keep dangerous physical attackers in check

Unlike other Pokemon like Mewtwo and Eternatus, its offensive stats are perfectly in line with the tier. Even Landorus-T has better stats for a special attacker.

Some may argue that Giratina will be too centralizing, but being centralizing doesn't equal broken. We already accept Kingambit and Tusk have 50+% usage. By unbanning Giratina-A, we may be able to address the immediate problems plaging the metagame.

Its defensive stats are high, but nothing out of the ordinary for OU. Ting-Lu has better defenses for example.

This post may get a lot of laugh reacts and responses like "lol I can't believe we are discussing unbanning Giratina-A".

It is true this suggestion may be outlandish. But it is a conversation starter. The fact is that Giratina-A is in a position to solve the metagames most pressing issues. It is an option worth investigating further.

150
100
120
100
120
90

Might wanna back up your claim with some calcs. You're tunnel visioned on it 'warping the meta to be more controlled' without mentioning how giratina itself isn't part of the fucking problem.

Nothing can switch into it, it has plenty of coverage options, and it can face tank pretty much anything going full defensive either rest-talking. We literally are seeing a diet version of this with zama and zama is already too much for the tier.
 
Last edited:
The solution to the meta's issues isn't more bans, its more unbans.

The meta is currently struggling with Entry Hazards, Dual Screens, Volcarona, Urshifu, Zamazenta-C, Zamazenta, and Sneaseler.

Thankfully, unbanning one Pokemon will allow OU to play around all these threats in one slot.

Now is the time to unban Giratina-A..

It will bring many positives to the tier.
+ Defogger to give us more options vs entry hazards and Dual Screens teams outside of Tusk / Brick Break + has a decent MU vs Gholdengo
+ Has a typing perfect to handle Sneaseler, Volcarona, Zamazenta-C, Urshifu, and Zamazenta
+ Dragon Tail + Bulk for phazing vs typically difficult to answer sweepers like the aforementioned Pokemon
+ Will-O-Wisp + T-Wave support to also keep dangerous physical attackers in check

Unlike other Pokemon like Mewtwo and Eternatus, its offensive stats are perfectly in line with the tier. Even Landorus-T has better stats for a special attacker.

Some may argue that Giratina will be too centralizing, but being centralizing doesn't equal broken. We already accept Kingambit and Tusk have 50+% usage. By unbanning Giratina-A, we may be able to address the immediate problems plaging the metagame.

Its defensive stats are high, but nothing out of the ordinary for OU. Ting-Lu has better defenses for example.

This post may get a lot of laugh reacts and responses like "lol I can't believe we are discussing unbanning Giratina-A".

It is true this suggestion may be outlandish. But it is a conversation starter. The fact is that Giratina-A is in a position to solve the metagames most pressing issues. It is an option worth investigating further.
Just looking at this on paper, Giratina-A does not feel like it fits in OU. 150/100/120/100/120/90 stats is an insane spread, and it has a very diverse move pool to match it.
Offensive Moves: Dragon Claw, Outrage, Draco Meteor, Shadow Ball, Shadow Force, Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Aura Sphere, Earth Power, Earthquake, Energy Ball, Iron Head, Psychic, Stone Edge, Dark Pulse, Thunderbolt
Defensive/Setup Moves: Pain Split, Substitute, Dragon Dance, Calm Mind
Utility: Thunder Wave, Will-o-Wisp, Defog, Dragon Tail
Sub DD and Sub CM could realistically break this thing wide open. Base 90 speed isn't too bad. It's no Dragapult, but could still get super out of hand due to the 150/120/120 bulk. The defensive utility is definitely there, even if it doesn't get Roost anymore, but offensively this thing could run train in theory.
I would say no, keep Giratina-A banned.
 
Just looking at this on paper, Giratina-A does not feel like it fits in OU.
the problem with this is that it relies on "on paper" and "feel". if you believe gira-a doesn't belong in ou, you should support a test (not a straight-up unban, a test) because it would provide concrete proof of your point. i personally think that gira-a might still be broken, but i don't know—time has certainly not been kind to it, and i've been wrong about things like this before. the main reason i'm looking for a test is that there's a chance it might not be broken anymore, and without a test we'll never know for sure
Base 90 speed isn't too bad.
nah, it kinda is now
The defensive utility is definitely there, even if it doesn't get Roost anymore, but offensively this thing could run train in theory.
it never got roost. if it had recovery, ag would have been invented 2 generations early
 
nah, it kinda is now
It is for its bulk, the speed tiers matter depending on ther roles the mons want to do, the other speed tiers and stats. That is why I'm calling, Enamorus 106 is afwul for a SR weak mon with low bulk, but Giratina bulk is amazing and has Pult's special attack and typing, that allows it to not worry much about being outspeed while its base is great to take advantage of other stuff.
The solution to the meta's issues isn't more bans, its more unbans.

The meta is currently struggling with Entry Hazards, Dual Screens, Volcarona, Urshifu, Zamazenta-C, Zamazenta, and Sneaseler.

Thankfully, unbanning one Pokemon will allow OU to play around all these threats in one slot.

Now is the time to unban Giratina-A..

It will bring many positives to the tier.
+ Defogger to give us more options vs entry hazards and Dual Screens teams outside of Tusk / Brick Break + has a decent MU vs Gholdengo
+ Has a typing perfect to handle Sneaseler, Volcarona, Zamazenta-C, Urshifu, and Zamazenta
+ Dragon Tail + Bulk for phazing vs typically difficult to answer sweepers like the aforementioned Pokemon
+ Will-O-Wisp + T-Wave support to also keep dangerous physical attackers in check

Unlike other Pokemon like Mewtwo and Eternatus, its offensive stats are perfectly in line with the tier. Even Landorus-T has better stats for a special attacker.

Some may argue that Giratina will be too centralizing, but being centralizing doesn't equal broken. We already accept Kingambit and Tusk have 50+% usage. By unbanning Giratina-A, we may be able to address the immediate problems plaging the metagame.

Its defensive stats are high, but nothing out of the ordinary for OU. Ting-Lu has better defenses for example.

This post may get a lot of laugh reacts and responses like "lol I can't believe we are discussing unbanning Giratina-A".

It is true this suggestion may be outlandish. But it is a conversation starter. The fact is that Giratina-A is in a position to solve the metagames most pressing issues. It is an option worth investigating further.
While it may sound great, like others have mentioned might make the things worse. This reasoning was what others thought about Mag returning to the tier "oh great we have a great adition to defensive teams with AV that checks Pao" but that didn't turn out well.
 
the problem with this is that it relies on "on paper" and "feel". if you believe gira-a doesn't belong in ou, you should support a test (not a straight-up unban, a test) because it would provide concrete proof of your point. i personally think that gira-a might still be broken, but i don't know—time has certainly not been kind to it, and i've been wrong about things like this before. the main reason i'm looking for a test is that there's a chance it might not be broken anymore, and without a test we'll never know for sure

nah, it kinda is now

it never got roost. if it had recovery, ag would have been invented 2 generations early
1. You're right in that it does rely with "on paper" and "feeling" based things, but I'm not sure if the test would reveal much of anything new. Like, sure. cheem poo absolutely OBLITERATES this without Tera, and Gambit can really throw a wrench into its plans with correct play on Sucker Punch... I don't think we need more fat blobs for Big Stall and potential game breaking Sub Sweepers to exist. But that's just me.
2. I disagree, but that's just me. I'm also heavily simping Dirge and Garde so my opinion kind of doesn't matter here.
3. I swear that it got Roost before, but I guess I was talking out of my ass. Guess it was just Rest and Pain Split.
 
but I'm not sure if the test would reveal much of anything new
and that's why now isn't a good time for it. it should happen at that point that every meta gets to where all the bans are done and people are starting to get bored (aka the volcarona point because that's about the time in every gen where people start talking about suspecting volcarona, which never goes anywhere). even if it doesn't accomplish anything, at least it'll be something exciting to do
I don't think we need more fat blobs for Big Stall
what big stall? stall has been struggling this generation more than it ever has, and the lack of transfer moves was the final nail in its coffin
 
Last edited:
the problem with this is that it relies on "on paper" and "feel". if you believe gira-a doesn't belong in ou, you should support a test (not a straight-up unban, a test) because it would provide concrete proof of your point.
The burden of proof for testing an Uber (or any banned mon from a tier) is on the ones calling for a test to drop it, in this case you and a couple others. Not the other way around.

i personally think that gira-a might still be broken, but i don't know—time has certainly not been kind to it, and i've been wrong about things like this before.
Time hasn't been kind to it... In Ubers. This is not Ubers. Also, yes it is fast for how fat it is.

I'm not sure why this topic is coming up again anyways. We have way more important things to be focusing on right now.
 
My boy hisuian electrode is slept on. He is this gens PREMIER turn waster. have trouble with screens? weather? not to worry, he can and WILL stall out all turns. Heres a replay where electrode removes :great tusk:, :walking wake: and stalls out sun twice in one game. Truly a godlike mon

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1877281720-6z1jaleuq0ydlrwzrvub2jxpqq98w0mpw

:Electrode-Hisui: @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
Tera Type: grass/water/steel
EVs: 64 Def / 252 SpD / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Volt Switch/Thunderbolt
- Leech Seed
- Chloroblast

zero hp because we want leech seed/ sub to do its thing. With leftovers and leech seed anything with more hp than uninvested :garchomp: should give you positive hp even with a Substitute each turn. This speed creeps timid :dragapult: I rarely tera since he can do the job fine without it but if you want a stronger chloroblast or want to resist fire the options are there. Tera steel works agaisnst galarian slowking. You can run leaf storm but the recovery between leftovers and leech seed means you can usually use chloroblast more than twice and this:
* 0 SpA Electrode-Hisui Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 440-522 (101.3 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Soundproof has you switching in on :skeledirge:, torch song is ineffective and without a boost he cant really beat you down via hex without spamming slack off and giving you more leech seed/sub recovery. I currently run volt switch but that has anti-synergy with substitute so i might change to thunderbolt. pivot moves are just crazy strong so any mon that has them should usually run them. He even has a reasonable matchup into heatran since it needs magma storm to break your sub and good luck hitting 4 of them in a row.
 
Comparing Ursaluna to previous slow wallbreakers is a mistake because it is by far the strongest in OU history with a much better STAB combo, high bulk, and Guts to raise its Attack and prevent it from being statused some other way. Conkeldurr actually had switch-ins while Ursaluna doesn't. If you want defensive playstyles to be heavily disadvantaged in the meta even though Tera being in the meta and how hazards being difficult to get rid already disadvantages those playstyles, by all means, keep Ursaluna in the tier. This mon has 0 defensive counterplay outside of randomly popping Tera Ghost on something. This Pokemon basically encourages HO spam since it just tears through fat mons like nothing else in history.
 
Last edited:
The burden of proof for testing an Uber (or any banned mon from a tier) is on the ones calling for a test to drop it, in this case you and a couple others. Not the other way around.
so what you're saying is that i should prove gira-a belongs in ou in order to get the opportunity to test whether gira-a belongs in ou? i'm glad you're not in charge of scientific grant funding. or tiering policy, for that matter.
This is not Ubers.
until the council vote comes through tomorrow, it kinda is
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top