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My problem with this is why ban it now then if you have the intention of suspecting later?
That seems like removing the element for the time being for the sake of it, cause you're advocating you would personally prefer to test it regardless of the vote result.
I do not, and frankly I wouldn't know how to prove that, but going strictly off of assumption high elo is minority compared to low elo, usually when you survey an entire playerbase you're going to get results from everyone and there's more abundance of low elo in this instance. That would be something the council would have to say and I would be surprised if all 50+ votes were from [insert starting range you consider high elo]+
Counter point, how many pokemon's viabilities in OU will rise from Lower tiers now that some of the most oppressive mons are gone. While I don't like comparing OU to other tiers or Tera to other mechanics, two things must be noted.
First, there have been a sizable number of formerly OU mons from gens 7 and Gen 8 that fell to lower tiers this generation. This happens all the time and in part is due to nerf's in move sets or abilities (greninja), as well as new additions to the ranks. However some are more glaring than others. Weavile, who was OU and had a niche in Ubers in Gen 8 fell all the way down to RU with the introduction of Chien-Pao ( good riddance). And its no surprise when it's competition had 2 priority STAB and an actual ability that benefited it's playstyle. Sword of Ruin is an absolutely insane ability.
Second point: If the Tera was as inherently broken a mechanic, then surely we would see a rise in usage of mons from lower tiers? Except we aren't, in fact it's the opposite. I hate to bring Dynamax into the discussion, but there was a period where people were slapping acrobatics on Salazzle all so they could get Speed Boosts of Max Airstream. And that wasn't even an isolated incident. Anything that could run a Flying move did and the Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/Sand Rush/Slush Rush were unshackled by their dependence on weather setters.
Dynamax significantly enhancing the viability of lower-tier Pokemon with Flying-type moves has no bearing on whether Terastal is broken because the mechanics are different. What they share in common is giving Pokemon enhanced power and allowing them to break through what should have been checks. Weavile falling to RU had nothing to do with Chien-Pao, who actually had switch-ins without Tera, but the nerfs Weavile received this generation. Dynamax is an indefensible mechanic, and while Terastal is not on the same level as Dynamax, I do believe it is broken even if it has less effect in a battle than Dynamax did. There is no rule that states that lower-tier Pokemon from previous generations must be viable to point to Terastal being also broken like Dynamax was, although Articuno-Galar being usable in OU 'cause of Terastal does show that that happens, albeit to a lesser extent.
I maintain that Espathra, Palafin, Chien-Pao, Regieleki, Volcarona, and perhaps Urshifu-Rapid Strike, were all broken because of Terastal although you can make the argument that Urshifu-Rapid Strike may have been broken without Tera due to the big buffs it received this generation.
The teal mask dlc 1 has a speculative date for mid-late September, which also falls exactly in line the change in VGC series.
4 months to do 5-6 suspect test is unreasonable pace especially if one of them is s ground breaking mechanic test. I’d rather them be aggressive with the quick bans and retest if time allows than waste time testing everything.
I do not, and frankly I wouldn't know how to prove that, but going strictly off of assumption high elo is minority compared to low elo, usually when you survey an entire playerbase you're going to get results from everyone and there's more abundance of low elo in this instance. That would be something the council would have to say.
That’s fair, but imo that means it’s also not a safe assumption to make. This is kind of the reason I would have rather Volcarona be included on a survey vote before any kind of quickban vote, so we would have a better idea of what the general playerbase thought of it, both in terms of qualified voters and general voters. As it stands, we only know that some people wanted it to be looked at and the council thought as a whole it was unhealthy, but it seems highly dubious that Volcarona would have been banned this way if WCoP wasn’t on the horizon.
so zama remains ou and the only physical move in the tier able to bypass the iron defense set is gone + most team will be forced to run zama because is one of the not ground mons to keep in check kingambit lol
other wasted time for a useless suspect on a pokemon that should never exit uber and still no actions on tera, a mechanic suspected too early and players are asking for a retest since february
on volcarona: banning volcarona changes nothing, ho screens will use dnite or bax
Volcarona didn't deserve a quickban. It's gotten slightly worse from HOME - since Heatran realistically forces it to run Tera ground or water. It was also a great tool for offense in handling mons like Zamazenta, Enamorus, and Iron Valiant. And don't get me wrong - if there was a suspect I'd have voted to ban it - but there are arguments for and against it and it's nowhere near as clear-cut as something like Magearna.
But most importantly, it wasn't included on the community survey at all - and pre-HOME, where it had more freedom in sets and was more restrictive with an even smaller pool of threats, it has a qualified response record of 2.97 then 3.05 - which to me suggests it's a good suspect candidate - but doesn't feel sufficient in justifying a quickban. I think community surveys - especially the qualified responses - should be held to a higher level of importance than they currently seem to be. Even if the banning system doesn't change, I'd like to encourage the council to strongly consider the community response data when casting their votes.
Urshifu was also very restrictive, and so was actually included on the survey. But a 2.66 isn't anywhere near enough to justify a quickban imo. There's clearly a large portion - likely a majority - of qualified players who do not think Urshifu is broken enough to be quickbanned.
A 3.7, however, is maybe enough to justify a quickban vote. I understand there are arguments for it being healthy for the tier - but the fact that the same people who voted DNB on Zamazenta also voted to ban Urshifu, a 2.66/5 mon, and Volcarona, a historically ~3.0 mon that wasn't even included this time, leads me to disagree with the decisions made by said council members.
This is yet more evidence that a mon in the 3.0-3.5 range shouldn't really be quickbanned.
Tera 200 write-ins suggests to me that its exclusion from the survey was a definite mistake. Based on previous results it seems like the community is about 50/50 split between action vs no action. Of course many will have changed their minds, and a restriction approach is still an option. But this is clearly an issue within the community, and if we're using "write in mentions" as a metric to justify bans now.... it's weird that Tera was ignored whilst Volcarona was banned. Why isn't the middle ground of suspect testing being considered?
Thoughts on ban philosophy
Surveys should be a much more significant factor in ban decisions.
Anything around the 2.5-4.0 range should be a consideration for a suspect test, and anything above 4.0 should definitely be quickbanned.
Anything not on the survey or below a qualified 3.0 should, in my eyes, never be quickbanned.
Tournaments shouldn't deter the council from doing suspect tests.
Most OU players don't play in tours. Just let ladder become a suspect testing ground whilst the tournament goes on, and if something gets banned during the tournament, just ask players to use a custom challenge code based on the old ruleset. These do not need to be in conflict.
Final note
❤ My opinion is just one of many many others who feel differently. This isn't a personal attack on council or community members, just a disagreement about Pokemon tiering. Nothing here is worth harassing people over. Please be nice to each other. ❤
Vert 's post here was a great post that goes into depths with a lot of the problem albeit somewhat exaggeratted, but i wanna put my 2 cents as someone who build quite a lot and a ladder player addict who consistently gets above 2000 elo.
How on earth is the decission made now?
The bans on Zamazenta Crowned and Chien Pao has only been implemented 2 days ago on ladder, how on earth is there enough time to playtest the meta? I play upwards to 50 games on high ladder a day, and even if i think something is broken, 2 days is not enough. Urshifu is really powerful so him getting the boot is a bit understandable, but volcarona? that mon isn't even in the surveys, i am well aware that people have been discussing it but is it really enough for it to get the boot?
Volcarona right now is very exploitable and it really isn't more broken than other HO Staples like Iron Valiant or Dragonite, all 3 of them can easily run through over most teams after set up with the right set. Its not like volcarona is going to have Tera Ground, Tera Water, Tera Rock and Psychic all in one set. You can say the same about Iron Valiant or Zamazenta, it has the tools to beat everything, i've seen Tera Ghost to beat dragonite, Tera Fire to beat Skeledirge, Tera Water, Liquidation, Taunt Subsitute, all of those sets still let iron valiant do iron valiant things.
Besides my main gripe with banning volcarona is that it is a CRUCIAL part of the meta because it is an offensive pokemon with great defensive attributes, a lot of BO and HO even some Stall rely on it to beat some very common and good threats like Iron Valiant, Zamazenta-Dog, Lilligant-Hisui, Great Tusk, Gholdengo and a lot more.
Without Garganacl, Dragapult would perhaps be Uber. And Garganacl, while annoying, is more checkable than ever before. I find it not broken and important to have around.
For me, volcarona fits perfectly with the comparison in the post above about garg aswell. Garg was at one point in contention for a suspect test and has had AMAZING win rate, broken set up sets and making people run ridiculous sets like Covert Cloak ditto, but it was pardoned because
a). Letting the meta settle to eventually find things to counter it with
b). Noticing how crucial of a defensive profile it has for the meta and how without it ghosts would take over
So why can't volcarona get the same treatment? this is such a huge blow to HO and BO team building, as volcarona alone help check like 5 mons that otherwise would need 2-3 mons to check alone.
Volcarona is even forced to run something like tera water or ground to beat heatran now, not to mention the explosive boom of Toxapex due to the popularity of Zamazenta and HO teams, overall volcarona is definetly in a worse position now than it was in pre-HOME meta.
Sorry to bring it up again but Urshifu got less vote than Zamazenta-Hero, and Volcarona wasn't even in the survey, and there has been only 2 DAYS since the last quickban was implemented and im sorry but in no way are these two pokemon are good as Chien Pao and Zamazenta Crowned who requires 2 mons each to counter.
And i have read the Announcement post for the volc argument and to me they're not good enough, a lot of them just falls down into "volcarona can type change and tera blast" which at that point, genuinely, why not suspect tera right now? even tho i am a pro tera person theres nothing wrong with suspect testing.
and if you are reading this and are a newer player to this gen, heres a google document that i made for Team Asia in WCOP 2023 (as i was a third manager helping the team to win) about HOW TO USE TERA TO WIN, wasnt able to get it released by the ou forums mod yet since i need aproval to make a new thread.
Identifying the tera type of volcarona is NOT that hard, if you play the meta extensively and know the common threats of the tier, common tera types, and what set people run to counter what, you can easily find out what pokemon terastalizes into what.
Speaking of WCOP, i understand we want to stabilize the meta but, how do we know what kind of meta is stable? as i've said volcarona is SUCH a crucial part of some teams as it is an amazing defensive-offensive glue that is super splashable on HO and BO, so banning it would cause a chain reaction of potential other bans like Iron Valiant. Of course i can't look into the future to see what the meta would look like (honestly did anyone expect Galarian Articuno would be the best galar bird? its wild) but neither can anyone, so why ban something that is known to be a very good glue on many teams. Letting the meta settle with WCOP has always been the case for years, and seeing amazing players build and play with the tier seriously can help judge what mon is good or not and find counter plays. Then a quickban be put into place would be much more understandable.
To conclude, there is just not enough reason to ban volcarona especially since its such a crucial defensive tool for offense teams and removing it would create a downward spiral of potential bans of other things like iron valiant. I really would like more indepth reasoning as to why they're banned but not something like zamazenta-hero which got a lot of votes. Especially on volcarona since it wasnt even surveyed, and having something be acted on without it even being in the survey feels weird.
As I've mentioned in my previous post, I voted the way I did with the full intention to advocate for suspecting the targeted Pokemon in the future. I believe Volcarona deserves a suspect test, and I believe Urshifu-R deserves one too; however I personally recognize that, in spite of that, there are clear influences on both play and the building process that these Pokemon pose on the tier that I personally feel we would be better off avoiding during WCoP due to its high-level status and being a format entrenched in opportunity for players of different backgrounds to make their mark. I believe a stable metagame is important for that, and unfortunately there are just way too many problems with the tier to where I personally saw this approach as a necessary evil.
I completely understand that playing in a Volcarona/Urshifu meta in WCoP is not ideal, but as a general OU player… is it really better to quickban something for the entire metagame so that WCoP players get a more ideal meta for themselves? Is there any reason that they couldn’t just accept that the metagame is in a tumultuous state and that they’d have to deal with a couple of Pokémon that aren’t necessarily ideal? It seems a taller ask to tell the whole OU player base that they have to respect a sudden, kind of unprecedented quickban of something that has been in the format for months without significant changes than it is to ask tournament players to just play a less ideal meta for a bit. I get that you’re trying to make the best decisions you can of course, but if maintaining parity between WCoP’s ruleset and the general OU ruleset is of absolute importance due to the inability to split ladder for tournament players to practice, then I think that WCoP’s needs should not take priority over healthy tiering precedent.
Honestly, it's very hard as a player to wrap your head around some of the things that happened in this community. It takes me by surprise that the solution to make the metagame "balance" is to continue to pass the ban hammer on Pokémon who are good in their own right but not broken. In previous generations we have dealt with both Volcarona and Ushifu-rapid-strike and they have been very good and manageable. However, generation 9 comes around and I have seen a couple of pokemons get banned from OU because they are considered broken. I would like to see the council to address terastallization as a whole which is a fun yet toxic mechanic to the metagame. If we continue to ban a pokemon because of terra we will be left with a limited number of Pokémon used and the metagame will become boring because we realized we can only use the same 3 Pokemon with the same terra type and leave no space for flexibility. and at the end of the day I would rather play on a metagame with as many pokemon as possible than banning regular pokemon because in order to save a mechanic. and it would be sad to see this issue of terra type actually get addressed after the generation is over. like Smogon has done in other generations.
see I like the transparency, and thats a decent enough spot to know the gist of the metagame. Now if youll post replays of unwinnable games or games in which volc is clearly an uncircumventable threat that undermines competitiveness, we can have a conversation. Im here to help, let me know when youre ready.
I don't think Volc should have been quickbanned lol. Because of new toy syndrome, I've barely faced it + the teams I have been stealing have ran offensive QD Volc which imo is not at all broken. After Chien-Pao / Zama ban, I thought it would have been a good idea to let the meta stabilize & was completely surprised by the ban announcement today. I gave Urshifu-RS a 1 on the survey too, thought it was a perfectly healthy addition to the metagame. My prior response to yours was mostly just trolling since I thought the comparison to an unhealthy relationship was ridiculous (until I thought about it more lol). Even though I don't think Volc should be quick banned, I also won't be missing it either, always thought that Pokemon was restricting, esp last gen in the IoA meta where counterplay to it was extremely thin. Furthermore, I don't play any tourneys bar the ones in the OU Room so I'm not really qualified to speak on that front. I'd imagine when I get wrecked by Tera Blast Water Volc, I'll thank its more BS, but using Tera Blast Volc myself, it feels like somewhat high cost, particularly since most Tera Blast Volc are also offensive, which is imo not broken due to priority.
I think the calls against the council are a bit much too tbh, but eh, controversial decisions happen here and there.
I fully agree with CTC , Vert and all the other guys who are critiquing the recent tiering, because honestly, its just stupid. Lets go into further detail.
Zamazenta. I looked at xavgb's argument, and it was literally just usage and people playing around it. Both of those are tied to how its impacted the meta right now. Within the past couple of weeks, enamorus usage has gone up, or at least from what I've seen, and I think a fair conclusion to why thats the case is because of zamazenta (keep in mind, thats not the only reason, but it is one reason). With the rise of enamorus, or tera ghost/fairy on literally every team now, zamazenta is bound to get worse, because it's a mon that's forcing people to run counterplay. Wasn't that the reasoning behind other bans in the past.. the mon restricting the builder/meta? Its subtle and it's worked out in small ways, like tera ghost being fine to spin block, or enamorus being a semi good pokemon, but we can all agree the meta would be so much better off without zamazenta.
Recent bans: What the hell happened. Volc, semi justifiable. Shifu, same case, but a slightly less. Both of these pokemon were fine in the meta, and we only gave people a couple of days/weeks after the chien pao ban to adjust. They did have a huge ass impact, thats for certain, but a whole ban? That's just jokes.
Volc: Rain is now a huge part of the tier, and so is fat, which includes protect garg (tera scout), glowking, and pex. You have archetypes like BO and HO with countless counterplay, and the mon was overall not bad at all. What's funny is that volcarona wasn't even mentioned on the survey, and then suddenly, because people are writing it down, its quickbannable. You guys as a council have seemed to lose all of your personal judgement at times and blindly follow the public, but then other times you guys make outrageous decisions on your own that turn out to be horrendous for the community and the tier.
Little tired, so my last message is just listen to the community. Either fix the council, and push for quality over quantity, with people who can actually make fair decisions and have proven so in the past, or learn to actually think about your decisions. Your own personal experience isn't enough to talk for the entire tier, which is literally your job lol. 90% of the playerbase is pissed with your decisions, which should be enough to tell you guys that you're doing something wrong.
PS: Finchinator transparency isn't the problem within the community, its the council. Don't run away from your problems, face them instead. Keep being as transparent as you are, but also listen and think for once, because whatever you're doing right now is clearly not satisfying the community.
I completely understand that playing in a Volcarona/Urshifu meta in WCoP is not ideal, but as a general OU player… is it really better to quickban something for the entire metagame so that WCoP players get a more ideal meta for themselves? Is there any reason that they couldn’t just accept that the metagame is in a tumultuous state and that they’d have to deal with a couple of Pokémon that aren’t necessarily ideal? It seems a taller ask to tell the whole OU player base that they have to respect a sudden, kind of unprecedented quickban of something that has been in the format for months without significant changes than it is to ask tournament players to just play a less ideal meta for a bit. I get that you’re trying to make the best decisions you can of course, but if maintaining parity between WCoP’s ruleset and the general OU ruleset is of absolute importance due to the inability to split ladder for tournament players to practice, then I think that WCoP’s needs should not take priority over healthy tiering precedent.
Wouldn't the best option be to do what Ubers is doing with Calyrex-S currently, i.e having a suspect running but keeping Shifu/Volc tournament banned unless the suspect ends in them being unbanned?
I wouldn’t call it a horrible idea, especially without knowing what the future holds for this meta, it’s a realistic scenario, where we don’t get to Tera test prior to dlc 1, even after banning volc.
Even if it IS the right decision, I would feel better if the Council reserved quickbans for only truly broken Pokemon. Nobody can see the exact consequences of any ban, especially for the likes of Volcarona. And 'decisive' is an interesting route to go if the decision you made so strongly opposes community preference.
Wouldn't the best option be to do what Ubers is doing with Calyrex-S currently, i.e having a suspect running but keeping Shifu/Volc tournament banned unless the suspect ends in them being unbanned?
I think the main reason they avoided doing this was because there was multiple bans on the table, (and we even ended up with two bans as a result), and Volcarona is more intrinsically connected to Tera which should be discussed before Volcarona itself is. It’s a super tough situation all-around and I don’t envy the council one bit; I just don’t think that Volc should have been quickbanned if the justification for it happening that way over another survey or a suspect or a Tera suspect is primarily WCoP.
Fairly new to the competitive scene for SV ((and these forums). Does anyone mind sharing what the current meta builds (EVs, moveset, etc.) are for the below mons? Struggling to find quick threads with this info.
this is more a question for this thread for future reference
iron hands is typically seen with either booster energy or air balloon, max attack, and roughly enough speed to creep the likes of skeledirge & corviknight, so around enough evs to hit ~172ish speed is sufficient, imo (i think this is around 156evs, but don’t quote me on that). along with this, drain punch, ice punch, & wild charge with swords dance is a typical moveset. tera type is mostly flying, from my experience.
it can also be ran on a trick room team with 0 speed ivs & a brave nature, which is generally where it is most effective (it’s not too viable a pokémon at large).
heatran can run a variety of sets & moves with varying ev spreads, but they’re mostly defensive on the special side (calm nature is optimal on spdef sets) with leftovers. magma storm, stealth rock, taunt, protect, earth power, & will-o-wisp all commonly see usage on defensive heatran. magma storm is the only move you will see on the majority of defensive heatran, and its evs can vary quite a bit. some significant benchmarks are 200 speed, to outpace max speed adamant kingambit, 220ish to outpace defensive rotom-wash & landorus-t, and max speed for more offensively-inclined sets running a modest nature with either specs/air balloon. tera grass is the most common to flip its water & ground weaknesses into resists.
iron valiant is one of the most flexible pokémon in the metagame. there are four main sets, each with their respective branches in terms of coverage/utility moves - those being choice specs with a timid nature (moonblast, focus blast, psyshock, thunderbolt, & shadow ball are all used on specs), physical swords dance with booster energy & a jolly nature (close combat, spirit break, knock off & swords dance with tera steel is a good example set, though it can run other options such as zen headbutt & liquidation), special timid booster energy with calm mind (moonblast, focus blast/aura sphere, thunderbolt, shadow ball, psyshock, calm mind are all ran), and mixed naive booster energy with 4 attack evs, max spatt (moonblast, close combat, knock off, shadow ball, thunderbolt, psyshock are all ran). along with this, it has viable & strong booster energy sets that run utility moves such as taunt, encore, and destiny bond. it really just depends on what the team requires. all valiants run max speed, too. this is not an exhaustive list of valiant’s flexibility, though.
this is more a question for this thread for future reference
iron hands is typically seen with either booster energy or air balloon, max attack, and roughly enough speed to creep the likes of skeledirge & corviknight, so around enough evs to hit ~172ish speed is sufficient, imo (i think this is around 156evs, but don’t quote me on that). along with this, drain punch, ice punch, & wild charge with swords dance is a typical moveset. tera type is mostly flying, from my experience.
it can also be ran on a trick room team with 0 speed ivs & a brave nature, which is generally where it is most effective (it’s not too viable a pokémon at large).
heatran can run a variety of sets & moves with varying ev spreads, but they’re mostly defensive on the special side (calm nature is optimal on spdef sets) with leftovers. magma storm, stealth rock, taunt, protect, earth power, & will-o-wisp all commonly see usage on defensive heatran. magma storm is the only move you will see on the majority of defensive heatran, and its evs can vary quite a bit. some significant benchmarks are 200 speed, to outpace max speed adamant kingambit, 220ish to outpace defensive rotom-wash & landorus-t, and max speed for more offensively-inclined sets running a modest nature with either specs/air balloon. tera grass is the most common to flip its water & ground weaknesses into resists.
iron valiant is one of the most flexible pokémon in the metagame. there are four main sets, each with their respective branches in terms of coverage/utility moves - those being choice specs with a timid nature (moonblast, focus blast, psyshock, thunderbolt, & shadow ball are all used on specs), physical swords dance with booster energy & a jolly nature (close combat, spirit break, knock off & swords dance with tera steel is a good example set, though it can run other options such as zen headbutt & liquidation), special timid booster energy with calm mind (moonblast, focus blast/aura sphere, thunderbolt, shadow ball, psyshock, calm mind are all ran), and mixed naive booster energy with 4 attack evs, max spatt (moonblast, close combat, knock off, shadow ball, thunderbolt, psyshock are all ran). along with this, it has viable & strong booster energy sets that run utility moves such as taunt, encore, and destiny bond. it really just depends on what the team requires. all valiants run max speed, too. this is not an exhaustive list of valiant’s flexibility, though.
Okay FR. I use this thread to try to learn about the meta, but I have to scroll through 15 pages every day of bad takes, one liners, and pseudo-political(?) rants in this thread. I'm not a mod, but can we please stop this? I'm actively not enjoying this metagame because people are just being dicks to each other, not because the meta.
Like, what value did quoting Vert's post and saying "I agree" add to this thread other than another value-less post?
Honestly, it's very hard as a player to wrap your head around some of the things that happened in this community. It takes me by surprise that the solution to make the metagame "balance" is to continue to pass the ban hammer on Pokémon who are good in their own right but not broken. In previous generations we have dealt with both Volcarona and Ushifu-rapid-strike and they have been very good and manageable. However, generation 9 comes around and I have seen a couple of pokemons get banned from OU because they are considered broken. I would like to see the council to address terastallization as a whole which is a fun yet toxic mechanic to the metagame. If we continue to ban a pokemon because of terra we will be left with a limited number of Pokémon used and the metagame will become boring because we realized we can only use the same 3 Pokemon with the same terra type and leave no space for flexibility. and at the end of the day I would rather play on a metagame with as many pokemon as possible than banning regular pokemon because in order to save a mechanic. and it would be sad to see this issue of terra type actually get addressed after the generation is over. like Smogon has done in other generations.
I'm not going to say anything in defense of the Volcarona ban - Heatran existing is a huge restraint on Volc's tera types, and makes it much less the matchup moth that causes problems - but Urshifu isn't a tera issue. It's been speculated as a potential ban since the community learned it was getting Swords Dance, and that's not the only new toy; Protective Pads are a nice bonus, and Trailblaze (while very niche) is a handy tech.
As pure speculation, I think that Urshifu actually gets stronger in a no-tera meta, thanks to the loss of tera-water for defensive answers.
RE: the current bans in general, quick banning to stabilize a metagame for a tournament, even WCOP, is a terrible practice and a misuse of the explicit purpose of quick bans. They are supposed to be for when things are so obviously broken that a suspect test is a waste of time, and while Volc might not survive a suspect, that's a pretty big 'might.' It's a textbook example of when a suspect test is appropriate.
If WCOP is so important that it's worth impacting the wider OU ladder for, then WCOP should have its own ladder. That's been proven problematic in the past, yes, but it's still better than damaging the larger metagame.
alright fair enough deleting that shitpost, i was in the middle of making it a Real Post tho lol
i am Posting Through the Pain
i actually despise that i have to explain that a pokémon exists with 4 different core sets, all with like a million viable combinations of moves, tera types, and not even have had scratched the surface on the variability it truly holds. i didn’t even mention sets like sub+sd+cc+knock tera fight, or encore+cm/sd, or destiny bond+taunt, or…
and this goes on forever, the meta is this, all the fucking way down.
then there is the absolutely abysmal hazards game, the lack of non-broken or non-dogshit ghost resists, the sheer amount of pokémon that would in any sane community be seen as overwhelmingly strong
drastic action needs to be taken, and i’m aware that the council is aware of this, but the scary part is that the community is not.
Wow, what an interesting concept about how some banned Pokémon that can take advantage of Tera would arguably be stronger in a metagame where their opponents could not! I wonder if any cool and sexy posters in this thread have elaborated further on that concept in this thread?
^ In that vein, I feel it’s worth pointing out that literally every banned Pokémon can benefit from Tera and that doesn’t mean anything whatsoever about the mechanic itself. This should be a no-brainer; it’s a universal tool that can be used to up damage or change match-ups, so of course they all find situations to benefit from it. In fact, everything in EXISTENCE can benefit from Tera, which wasn’t even true of something like Dynamax, (you give up all status moves and moves like Fishious Rend lose their OP effects), or Z-Moves, (not everything wants to give up their item slot for a nuke). However, that doesn’t mean everything that has been bannedDIRECTLY BENEFITS FROM TERA BEING IN THE META. For example, Houndstone arguably was worse thanks to the existence of Tera because everything could technically become a Normal type and gain a free turn against it clicking Last Respects, which is more of a loss than it gaining extra damage that it didn’t need or shifting its type matchup when its goal was usually just to outspeed things in sand and OHKO anyways. Did that make Houndstone balanced? Hell no; slapping Tera Normal on half your team just to avoid losing to Houndstone is incredibly unhealthily restrictive as a concept. But this doesn’t change the fact that the idea that whether a Pokémon directly benefits from Tera is more complicated than “well it’s a banned Pokémon that got better in x situation when it clicked Tera so clearly Tera is the issue”.
Could you elaborate on what 'mons you're talking about specifically? Iron Valiant is obvious, but the other "pokémon that would in any sane community be seen as overwhelmingly strong" are pretty vague.
Ok back from work today and this was definitely not the result I was expecting. I understand the problematic elements of both Pokemon banned today but I personally think Zama-H was a more pressing matter than either and most of the discussion around it that I've seen has been advocating to get it out of here (along with obviously the survey results) so very surprised that it wasn't dealt with today.
I certainly can see the rationale behind banning Volcarona and agree with it on some level, this frees up the builder immensely and removes the metagame's most matchup-fishy and borderline uncomp presence. The other side makes great points as well though; we've seen more than enough of Volcarona to understand the critical role it plays in the meta and know how to exploit its weaknesses (see great post above by Mimikyu Stardust). Considering there's not much we can do about the ban now, I think it deserves a resuspect, and I would count an Urshifu resuspect fairly likely as well. All things considered, this is ok. They should have been suspected anyway in my opinion, even if I would have preferred we left them alone for now. For Pokemon so fresh in the meta and, more importantly, so polarizing, it would have given us much better grounds to make a decision.
The main problem for me is that now the one Pokemon that is empirically much more widely seen as broken by the community remains OU in their place (and lost two of its better offensive checks today for what it's worth) and now we have to waste time suspecting it. I understand the idea of removing the most conspicious presences to promote metagame stability, but I think with how the bans played out it will take a good deal longer for the meta to stabilize now. We have to deal with the Zama process and then tiering may well get messy as we look at what even to address from that point forward: Volc and Shifu, both having been out of the tier for long enough to cloud a fair assessment, and other stuff like Tera (which opens up a whole new can of worms) and maybe Sneasler. I do think part of this comes with this vote being kind of hasty on the whole.
Could you elaborate on what 'mons you're talking about specifically? Iron Valiant is obvious, but the other "pokémon that would in any sane community be seen as overwhelmingly strong" are pretty vague.
this is also purely limited to pokémon, not any other elements i would nuke if given the choice
this generation has kinda been a wash from the start given what game freak gave us, & the mentality of the community has just made it unsalvageable by this point
haha-react all u ppl want btw. it just makes me more powerful (read: spiteful)
edit: xxart, tera fairy for stronger moonblasts, tera ghost for stronger shadow balls, tera electric for stronger tbolts, tera steel for defensive purposes, tera fight for strong close combats, tera dark for a stronger knock off, the list goes on & each of these have their specific applications for teams with regards to what you need it to beat
Do not run a suspect test to ban Zamazenta-H. Quickban Urshifu and Zamazenta-H and run a suspect on Volcarona ban. Do not really feel like I have to elaborate since everything has already been discussed. I am not a PR expert but that seems like the only way we smogon people will be happy, and if Volcarona truly is unhealthy to the metagame, it will end up being banned anyway.
Volcarona didn't deserve a quickban. It's gotten slightly worse from HOME - since Heatran realistically forces it to run Tera ground or water. It was also a great tool for offense in handling mons like Zamazenta, Enamorus, and Iron Valiant. And don't get me wrong - if there was a suspect I'd have voted to ban it - but there are arguments for and against it and it's nowhere near as clear-cut as something like Magearna.
Urshifu was also very restrictive, and so was actually included on the survey. But a 2.66 isn't anywhere near enough to justify a quickban imo. There's clearly a large portion - likely a majority - of qualified players who do not think Urshifu is broken enough to be quickbanned.
A 3.7, however, is maybe enough to justify a quickban vote. I understand there are arguments for it being healthy for the tier - but the fact that the same people who voted DNB on Zamazenta also voted to ban Urshifu, a 2.66/5 mon, and Volcarona, a historically ~3.0 mon that wasn't even included this time, leads me to disagree with the decisions made by said council members.
This is yet more evidence that a mon in the 3.0-3.5 range shouldn't really be quickbanned.
My opinion is just one of many many others who feel differently. This isn't a personal attack on council or community members, just a disagreement about Pokemon tiering. Nothing here is worth harassing people over. Please be nice to each other. 
