Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

[xc_hawk]

Blu, many of your points don't seem very valid. For one, the entire point of draco meteor on chain chomp is that you don't see it coming, so why on earth would you switch your blissey into garchomp in the first place? Rain dance teams are naturally at a disadvantage against SS teams due the the fact that SS requires no setup. Focus sash + ice move is almost completely invalid for the exact reason you mentioned, the SS so commonly seen with garchomp.
Sorry, they just don't seem like very good points to me.

Frisco makes a good argument, I'm interested to see how the metagame will change without garchomp as a constant threat.

Another random nitpick: frisco, doesn't WoW have 75% acc to begin with?

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

"CBChomp is easily beaten through prediction." We can say that for every Pokemon, right? The CBChomp user could also outpredict you and at least 2HKO your "counter."

 

[Kira]

Ok, how about this. Whether or not you agree it is uber, lets ban it for a month, or just a week or two. We can see how the metagame changes, and then reach our decision. I mean you cant say the metagame will become worse/better until you actually try it.

If anyone has a contact with Colin please request that he bans it for just two weeks. If anything that will allow us to effectively see how the metagame changes, and we can make our decision then. And by we I mean the tier experts.

 

[Cynthia]

Prediction is obviously a valid method of stopping any Choice'd Pokemon, if you get outpredicted it is really your own fault. And again, Garchomp must use Outrage to KO the most defensive Pokemon. It's very easy to predict what Garchomp's going to do right after Outraging, giving a safe switch in to any Steel type.

Some people don't seem to be getting the concept that some Pokemon don't have universal counters. Walls can't stop every single thing a Pokemon may have in its movepool, that's just the way the game is played.

 

[1059860]

You guys are OVERVIEWING Garchomp. Seriously, so if someone sends out a Garchomp, you'd go like "OMG SHITTT CHOMP I LOSE NOW, FUCKKK"??

Garchomp is so OU that it's so predictable. I don't see why you'd be afraid to switch in to any of your Physical walls.
Lets take a look at Garchomp's moves:

Outrage: I don't see Outrage threatening. It's probably the best late game move sweeper, but just switch in to a steel type like Magnezone and kill it w/ HP Ice. Don't forget that Outrage gets you locked in for 2-3 turns, giving you the oppurtinity to switch in to a set-up Pokemon like Bulky Gyara?

Dragon Claw: Way weaker than Outrage, which is good news for Gliscor, Donphan, Hippowdon. Don't be afraid of SD, because a SD-ed Claw won't be able to ohko Hippo, Gliscor, or Donphan. Donphan will be able to 2hko w/ Ice Shard, assuming that there's no Sandstream, Hippowdon can Roar it out or kill it w/ Ice Fang while it's setting up, Gliscor can 2hko w/ Ice Fang while it's setting up or Whirlwind it out

Earthquake: Numerous Pokemons can counter EQ, one of them would be Bronzong. Don't worry about Fire Fang, It's just Dragon Claw w/ 10 base damage more. (Dragon Claw 80+40=120(STAB)) (Fire Fang 65x2=130)

Draco Meteor: With Chomp's horrible Sp.Atk, what Special wall can't wall this?

here's more "possible counters":
Trick room team - A trick room team will make Garchomp's speed usless for a couple of turns, making Chomp a less threat

Rain Dance team - Makes Sand Veil useless, also makes Kingdra >>>> better than Garchomp

Adamant Cloyster(?) - Surprise Chomp by switching in to this Pokemon. let him think that you'd set-up spikes and shit. Then, watch him stay in and eat that Ice Shard. Cloyster's def should keep him alive even after switching in a CB Outrage

A Focus Sashed Pokemon w/ an Ice move - beware of stealth rock/sandstorm though

Hail team - Lead w/ Abomasnow and watch your opponent's sandstorm team freeze to death. Don't forget to carry a stall rein. Garchomp would sure be afraid to come out when its hailing for Blizzard would have 100% accuracy

IN CONCLUSION:
I don't see Garchomp as threatening as you guys make it sound like. Garchomp's moves are very predictable. A little bit of mind-games and predictability will beat Garchomp

The definition of overcentralizing the game is forcing everyone to make a team just to counter this one Pokemon. Remember, not everyone should make a hail team, or make a rain dance team or trick room team just to counter this one thing. That's overcentralizing. How many trick room teams do you see outside of Shoddy? Nonetheless, Garchomp can always switch out into Metagross, with or without agility, to take out trick roomers, as well as CB Ice Shards. If the opponent is CB Ice Sharder, Metagross gets a free Agility or a free attack. Focus Sash does not work due to sandstorm. And so, to counter this thing, an adamant Cloyster must be in place to counter it? Nobody should be force to have one of those on a team. Plus, it can't safely switch into Stone Edge or STAB Earthquake, as another STAB Earthquake can kill it with no doubt. Again, carrying a whole weather team (Rain Dance) is overcentralizing when dealing with this one Pokemon. And a Magnezone with HP Ice must be carried on a team just to deal with Garchomp's Outrage? How's that not overcentralizing?

Basically you're saying is that, if you're up against a Garchomp, you must: 1) Start with Abomasnow (killed by Fire Fang/Outrage), and hoping the other battler switch out Garchomp and have it killed before switching out his Sandstreamer, keeping your Abomasnow alive? That won't work.
2) Having HP Ice Magnezone on your team to take its outrage? That's overcentralizing.
3) If you have Adamant Cloyster, just to let you know that Adamant Garchomp does 85-100% damage with Outrage, 76-82% with Dragon Claw, and 94-111% with Earthquake. Jolly does a bit less, but can manage to OHKO, so basically if you want to switch it in, you HAVE to let another Pokemon faint. That's not a counter.
4) Trick Room: I explained above in the paragraph under your quote.
5) Outrage guarentees kill on Gliscor / Hippowdon after 1 SD.
6) Magnezone with HP Ice needed to counter Garchomp's outrage = Overcentralization.
7) Bronzong can't take SD Fire Fang. Same deal with Skarmory.

Check damage before posting next time.

And Kira, maybe AFTER Wobbuffet's test.

 

[Blu]

I don't expect for you guys to agree with me, but it was worth a try trying to prove my point.

Few points:
- Not all Garchomps play in a Sandstorm team
- (@Kira) Using a Garchomp in a Sandstorm team doesn't give you "god hax" just like what Kira's trying to say but luck is luck. It's as annoying as Togekiss paralyzing all your pokemon and sweeps you w/ Air Slash. Having said that, sometimes, the luck gods may be on your side ;P
- If you're using the Cloyster I'm using (Adamant w/ Life Orb) it does ohko garchomp(sometimes) but w/ stealth rock support/spike, the chances of ohko-ing garchomp is higher

Adamant Cloyster
Ice Shard on 6hp/0def adamant/jolly garchomp
damage: 326-383

 

[Bologo]

But if we all need to bring Gliscor on our teams then it is over-centralizing the metagame.

Ok again, Over-centralizing.

Again: Over-centralizing if the only way to beat it is with a weather team.

Umm Kira, really, what the hell isn't over-centralizing in your opinion? Every time anyone lists a way to beat Garchomp you keep saying it's over-centralizing.

Really, X is a good way to beat Y, therefore it is now over-centralizing. I noticed you saying stuff like this a lot in the other discussion, and I personally just think it's wrong.

Honestly, that's extremely stupid. You kinda contradicted yourself too by saying that "the only way to beat it is with a weather team", and then saying that Gliscor can beat it, and that Trick Room can beat it.

Lots of people carry Gliscor to beat Heracross, is that overcentralizing? Trick Room is used to beat LOTS of fast sweepers, not just Garchomp.

Weather teams aren't exactly rare either, I see Rain teams all the time.

Maybe try thinking of some ways to beat Garchomp instead of saying every way to beat Garchomp magically over-centralizes the metagame?

 

[Kira]

Ok I guess you are right. But is there any harm in testing it? It is not like the world freezes over from a simple test.

 

[Bogmire]

Ok, how about this. Whether or not you agree it is uber, lets ban it for a month, or just a week or two. We can see how the metagame changes, and then reach our decision. I mean you cant say the metagame will become worse/better until you actually try it.

If anyone has a contact with Colin please request that he bans it for just two weeks. If anything that will allow us to effectively see how the metagame changes, and we can make our decision then. And by we I mean the tier experts.

*breaks out Obi's stall team* jk I wouldn't copy someone elses team but I just realized SD chomp was the only thing that gave that team major trouble.

 

[Cynthia]

5) Outrage guarentees kill on Gliscor / Hippowdon after 1 SD.

By Outrage "guaranteeing" a kill after one SD, you do mean it's a 2HKO right? It is not a OHKO.

 

[Blu]

Ok I guess you are right. But is there any harm in testing it? It is not like the world freezes over from a simple test.

I'm fine w/ testing it, but darn, I guess my Garchomp will sleep for a long time :P

 

[Bologo]

No, testing it wouldn't be a bad idea. If it increases diversity, then that's a good thing, but if it just stays the same, then just keep it there. Just need to find someone who'd actually be willing to host a tourney though.

I really don't understand why people didn't try to make a thread like this for Garchomp when it was something like #2 or 3. It wasn't THAT much ahead of Blissey. Gengar is catching up to Garchomp quite a bit too because of Wobbuffet being added. I really wonder if people are going to make a thread saying that Gengar is broken when it reaches #1...

 

[husk]

Adamant Cloyster
Ice Shard on 6hp/0def adamant/jolly garchomp
damage: 326-383

That garchomp has 358 hp. You need 1 layer of spikes to guaranteed ko.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters."

I read the rest of your post, but this is the one part of it where you seem to be making a questionable assumption.

Adamant Choice Band Garchomp is probably the worst case scenario from a computational point of view, however, it is not the commonly used Garchomp. Worse, if it is Choice Banded that means it's locked into a move and you can predict to switch in on the attack and kill.

If you want to convince people, recalculate with Life Orb/Sword Dance/Jolly Garchomp with 252 Atk Ev. That's a much more realistic and likely scenario and if those figures are that bad, you'll make your case.

 

[RedMeowth]

here's more "possible counters":
Trick room team - A trick room team will make Garchomp's speed usless for a couple of turns, making Chomp a less threat

Yeah. Good luck trying to set up Trick Room before Garchomp kills you.

Rain Dance team - Makes Sand Veil useless, also makes Kingdra >>>> better than Garchomp

See response to Trick Room. Also, if you try to set up Rain Dance with Kingdra (which I HOPE isn't what you had in mind), say hello to Dragon Claw.

Adamant Cloyster(?) - Surprise Chomp by switching in to this Pokemon. let him think that you'd set-up spikes and shit. Then, watch him stay in and eat that Ice Shard. Cloyster's def should keep him alive even after switching in a CB Outrage

It STILL doesn't OHKO Garchomp with Ice Shard. Might not even be a 2HKO. And what if uses Stone Edge instead of Outrage? Cloyster takes more damage from SE, and that's a perfectly viable option on Garchomp. And in the off-chance it has Draco Meteor? Cloyster has only 45 base SpD. It's probably gonna hit HARD.

A Focus Sashed Pokemon w/ an Ice move - beware of stealth rock/sandstorm though

Garchomp's "counters" won't always die to a single attack. Check the first post in this thread. So, what's the point of Focus Sash? You might as well just use, say, Slowbro w/ Ice Beam; it's still the same.

Hail team - Lead w/ Abomasnow and watch your opponent's sandstorm team freeze to death. Don't forget to carry a stall rein. Garchomp would sure be afraid to come out when its hailing for Blizzard would have 100% accuracy

Tyranitar likes to say "hi" to enemy Abomasnow w/ Stone Edge. Plus, even with a faster sandstorm lead, there is a very effective and game-reversing tactic that can screw this plan up. It's called "switching". Not to mention Garchomp are likely to have fire attacks. Abomasnow then says "I'm melting! Oh, what a world, what a world!"

Will-O-Wisp - Laugh at Garchomp while he attempts to damage you

This is assuming Will-O-Wisp can hit Garchomp. He becomes tougher to hit in Sandstorms thanks to that Sand Veil.

IN CONCLUSION:
I don't see Garchomp as threatening as you guys make it sound like. Garchomp's moves are very predictable. A little bit of mind-games and predictability will beat Garchomp

In conclusion, remember that Garchomp is NOT the only Pokemon on the opponent's team and that others help it stand even more effectively.

 

[Cynthia]

The things is, teams are obviously going to change without Garchomp around, teams would also change without Gliscor,Blissey,Salamence,Tyranitar, etc. etc. There are only so many OU Pokemon, any one of them being removed is going to result in an increase of substitutes for that pokemon, a decrease in the counters the removed pokemon had, and an increase in the Pokemon the removed one did well against. We don't really need a tournament to show that.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

I read the rest of your post, but this is the one part of it where you seem to be making a questionable assumption.

Adamant Choice Band Garchomp is probably the worst case scenario from a computational point of view, however, it is not the commonly used Garchomp. Worse, if it is Choice Banded that means it's locked into a move and you can predict to switch in on the attack and kill.

If you want to convince people, recalculate with Life Orb/Sword Dance/Jolly Garchomp with 252 Atk Ev. That's a much more realistic and likely scenario and if those figures are that bad, you'll make your case.

Okay, let's review how high Garchomp's Atk gets:

Adamant 252 CB Chomp: 591
Jolly 252 BP/Yache Chomp after one SD: 718
>>Life Orb ON TOP OF THAT? Yeah...

 

[Syberia]

Copied directly from the What Is Uber topic:

But Sand Veil makes countering it entirely dependent on luck, a majority of the time. When you're facing a Chomp that's locked into Outrage and can't switch, and then your CBeavile's Ice Shard misses, you still lose even though you made the best move possible. Not to mention the Sub/SD version that's pretty much guaranteed to get, at one point or another, a free Swords Dance. I say someone make a mod server on Shoddy where Sand Veil is replaced by another trait (I vote for Rough Skin) and see how broken Garchomp turns out to be in that situation.

The fact that luck was required to counter it played a big part in the banning of the move Wrap in R/B/Y.

 

[Volarion]

I still don't understand why we don't just get rid of the evasion increase from sand veil. All we have to do is extend the evasion clause to abilities like sand veil and brightpowder, because they in fact also depend on luck. I don't mean not allowing pokemon with sand veil to be used in OU, I mean just not taking the extra evasion into account in the attack calculations that shoddy or competitor uses.

 

[Syberia]

See my post directly above yours.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

I still don't understand why we don't just get rid of the evasion increase from sand veil. All we have to do is extend the evasion clause to abilities like sand veil and brightpowder, because they in fact also depend on luck. I don't mean not allowing pokemon with sand veil to be used in OU, I mean just not taking the extra evasion into account in the attack calculations that shoddy or competitor uses.

Is that fair to Gliscor, Cacturne, and Sandslash? (Gliscor has Hyper Cutter, yes, but it's not used as often. And Dugtrio with Sand Veil? When was the last time you saw one of those?)

 

[Mia [old]]

I agree with literally everything stated by Cynthia. Especially on the point of Sand Veil vs Intimidate. It's a difficult argument to say that an ability that works literally 20% of the time (or less if the move is not 100% acc) is better than a reliable attack cut that works every time, particularly with the prerequisite of having a sandstorm on the field in the first place.

For simple attack potency, Salamence matches if not beats Garchomp on the basis that it has better answers to steels with a significantly better special attack to back up its fire move in trade for a second dangerous STAB.

edit: Wrap in RBY works more than 20% of the time.

 

[Syberia]

After one SD, Fire Fang deals with any Steels that don't fall to Earthquake (Bronzong and Skarmory) well enough. And when was the last time a Sand Veil Gliscor/Cacturne/Sandslash/Dugtrio(lol) was a threat to your team? Sure it's annoying if you miss, but one miss isn't likely to cost you the game. Even if it's the rarely seen Swords Dance sweeper Gliscor, that set is walled relatively easily by a common physical wall that can be found on just about every team (Skarmory/Bronzong/Cresselia/Forretress/Gyarados (if they don't run Stone Edge)). Furthermore, I thought Hyper Cutter was the preferred trait for Swords Dance Gliscor, as opposed to Sand Veil (to shut down users of Intimidate).

 

[Jumpman16]

You guys are OVERVIEWING Garchomp. Seriously, so if someone sends out a Garchomp, you'd go like "OMG SHITTT CHOMP I LOSE NOW, FUCKKK"??

Garchomp is so OU that it's so predictable. I don't see why you'd be afraid to switch in to any of your Physical walls.
Lets take a look at Garchomp's moves:

Outrage: I don't see Outrage threatening. It's probably the best late game move sweeper, but just switch in to a steel type like Magnezone and kill it w/ HP Ice. Don't forget that Outrage gets you locked in for 2-3 turns, giving you the oppurtinity to switch in to a set-up Pokemon like Bulky Gyara?

This is after it kills something after exactly one turn of Outrage, right? You wouldn't actually be advocating the switching of Magnezone into a faster ground-type straight up, would you? And you wouldn't be forgetting that after two turns of Outrage Garchomp has a decent chance of being able to just switch out, and a 100% chance after three turns, right?

Dragon Claw: Way weaker than Outrage, which is good news for Gliscor, Donphan, Hippowdon. Don't be afraid of SD, because a SD-ed Claw won't be able to ohko Hippo, Gliscor, or Donphan. Donphan will be able to 2hko w/ Ice Shard, assuming that there's no Sandstream, Hippowdon can Roar it out or kill it w/ Ice Fang while it's setting up, Gliscor can 2hko w/ Ice Fang while it's setting up or Whirlwind it out

You seem sadly unaware of the advent of Chain Chomp, please go read Garchomp's analysis. Draco Meteor OHKOs all of the pokemon you listed after the Stealth Rock damage that is suggested in the analysis (Gliscor is OHKOed by a STAB 284SpA DM 75.82% of the time when switching in to SR at full health).

Earthquake: Numerous Pokemons can counter EQ, one of them would be Bronzong. Don't worry about Fire Fang, It's just Dragon Claw w/ 10 base damage more. (Dragon Claw 80+40=120(STAB)) (Fire Fang 65x2=130)

Bronzong needs HP Ice to counter Garchomp (though Gyro Ball can 2HKO a Scarf variant), who can 3HKO with whichever fire attack its using attack or a CBed Adamant Outrage. It isn't listed in Garchomp's "Counters" listing for a reason—it doesn't pose an immediate threat without overspecializing its set with HP Ice.

Draco Meteor: With Chomp's horrible Sp.Atk, what Special wall can't wall this?

80 base SpA isn't "horrible" by any stretch of the word, but more importantly, Draco Meteor is most threatening on Garchomp when used on the Chain Chomp set that threatens every Special wall with the notion of a +2 Atk EQ.

here's more "possible counters":
Trick room team - A trick room team will make Garchomp's speed usless for a couple of turns, making Chomp a less threat

Rain Dance team - Makes Sand Veil useless, also makes Kingdra >>>> better than Garchomp

These are both indirect counters that can't exactly switch into Garchomp to counter it but this is the most valid thing in your entire post so whatever

Adamant Cloyster(?) - Surprise Chomp by switching in to this Pokemon. let him think that you'd set-up spikes and shit. Then, watch him stay in and eat that Ice Shard. Cloyster's def should keep him alive even after switching in a CB Outrage

Any smart Garchomp user would switch out from a bulky Ice-type like Cloyster, this is indicative of a lack of fundamental competitive battling

A Focus Sashed Pokemon w/ an Ice move - beware of stealth rock/sandstorm though

Come on, you find the problem with this yourself. Why even post it? Much of the reason that Garchomp is being considered by some to be uber is *because of* Sand Stream.

Hail team - Lead w/ Abomasnow and watch your opponent's sandstorm team freeze to death. Don't forget to carry a stall rein. Garchomp would sure be afraid to come out when its hailing for Blizzard would have 100% accuracy

Again you conveniently "forget" that much of Garchomp's alleged uberness comes with Sand Stream. Suggesting that an opponent's team would "freeze to death" against a hail team when they likely have either Hippowdon or Tyranitar to change the weather right back is ridiculous and biased.

Will-O-Wisp - Laugh at Garchomp while he attempts to damage you

As if it's easy to actually WoW Garchomp—you're much more likely to catch a Heracross or a Heatran with WoW than Garchomp.

IN CONCLUSION:
I don't see Garchomp as threatening as you guys make it sound like. Garchomp's moves are very predictable. A little bit of mind-games and predictability will beat Garchomp

As if the Garchomp user can't predict either...why this "predict" argument continues to crop up on one side but not the other astonishes me.

Anyway, you may think this is rude or condescending, but posts like this are exactly why our administration largely cannot draw much of anything from large discussion threads and instead talk about these issues in our Inside Scoop forum.

 

[NoMercy]

I have read everything, and i regret it. Two words: Spell Check.