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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

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I couldn't help but notice that garchomp, on the defense tiers, is about as tough (or tougher, can't remember) as omastar, who has base 125 defense.

Also, salamence is EASILY beaten by porygon2, same with gyarados. P2 cannot beat garchomp without a bit of luck.
 
Syberia said:
It's also called "Cresselia loses one of the moves it needs to counter X or Y."
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Firstly, Cress still functions fine with IB even if they don't have a Garchomp. Also, on sweepers, people put moves to take down certain common pokemon. But oh shit, we can't have that on CRESSELIA!

I won't participate in these arguments. But what I will say is that some arguments from both sides are pitiful.
 
Volarion said:
I still don't understand why we don't just get rid of the evasion increase from sand veil. All we have to do is extend the evasion clause to abilities like sand veil and brightpowder, because they in fact also depend on luck. I don't mean not allowing pokemon with sand veil to be used in OU, I mean just not taking the extra evasion into account in the attack calculations that shoddy or competitor uses.
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Do you know what the difference is between a "trait" and an "item? The Sand Veil trait and built right into the game and you can't change what it does. If your going to do that, why not give Areseus Slow Start and put him in OU? Or make alterations to any pokemon in the game?
 
Kira said:
Ok, how about this. Whether or not you agree it is uber, lets ban it for a month, or just a week or two. We can see how the metagame changes, and then reach our decision. I mean you cant say the metagame will become worse/better until you actually try it.

If anyone has a contact with Colin please request that he bans it for just two weeks. If anything that will allow us to effectively see how the metagame changes, and we can make our decision then. And by we I mean the tier experts.
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I don't mind this Garchomp discussion (I personally think that Garchomp is handled currently in OU, but my hail team negates many of his advantages... lol @ Walrein surviving CB Stone Edge, using Subsitute and stalling him out for the rest of the game), but I demand no more testing on the Shoddybattle ladder. If you wish to prove your point with a test, do so outside of the ladder and then post your results / conclusion. The Shoddybattle ladder should not be a testing grounds. The ladder is currently the only quickly accessable competitive environment. And to keep it competitive, the rules must not change unless we are sure that it would be a better game.

When something happens on the ladder, you force the entire community to go ahead and play with your test, whether they want to or not. This destroys the very fabric of the current competitive Pokemon environment, changing the rules of the game when people just want to play the OU pokemon metagame.

The last thing we need is another untested idea thrown into the ladder. I've lost much respect over Shoddybattle because of how the Wobbuffet "test" is being conducted. The last thing we need is a test done in a similar respect.

You do not "test" a game by changing the rules, forcing the entire community to play by the new rules for 2 weeks and then measure the results.
 
evolutia said:
Do you know what the difference is between a "trait" and an "item? The Sand Veil trait and built right into the game and you can't change what it does. If your going to do that, why not give Areseus Slow Start and put him in OU? Or make alterations to any pokemon in the game?
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I posted about that later in the thread, but to reiterate, I thought I made it clear that I did not support a change in ability, only the negation of the effect of sand veil. I also want to say that there are other clauses on shoddy that are not enforceable in the game, like freeze clause. The sand veil change only pertains to simulators.
 
dynamo said:
Firstly, Cress still functions fine with IB even if they don't have a Garchomp. Also, on sweepers, people put moves to take down certain common pokemon. But oh shit, we can't have that on CRESSELIA!

I won't participate in these arguments. But what I will say is that some arguments from both sides are pitiful.
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I was referring to someone's post about how Sunny Day Cresselia would be useful.
 
Ice types really need to resist dragon next generation. Why Ice doesn't resist dragon right now when it's SE against it is beyond me, considering how Ice only resists one thing.
 
I think Water resisting Dragon would be better for the metagame than Ice resisting it. Return of the bulky waters, anyone?
 
Raikou said:
Ice types really need to resist dragon next generation. Why Ice doesn't resist dragon right now when it's SE against it is beyond me, considering how Ice only resists one thing.
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Ice is arguably the best STAB attack in the game, with a 120 BP 10% freeze attack that has no immunities and is strong to 5 types. Ice gets nearly perfect coverage with 3 different attack types: Ground, Fighting, and Electric. (Ice/Ground is resisted only by Bronzong and Surskit. Electric / Ice is resisted only by Magnezone and Lanturn. Fighting / Ice is resisted only by water/poison, water/psychic, and Ghost/Ice but hits 9 types super-effective). Other combos don't have perfect coverage, but hit many types super-effective (fire/ice, rock/ice and water/ice)

In a hailstorm, Blizzard has the accuracy of Aura Sphere, ignoring even Brightpowder and +Evasion.

Ice is a great type and is super-offensive. No need to boost it.
 
Dragontamer said:
Ice is arguably the best STAB attack in the game, with a 120 BP 10% freeze attack that has no immunities and is strong to 5 types. Ice gets nearly perfect coverage with 3 different attack types: Ground, Fighting, and Electric. (Ice/Ground is resisted only by Bronzong and Surskit. Electric / Ice is resisted only by Magnezone and Lanturn. Fighting / Ice is resisted only by water/poison, water/psychic, and Ghost/Ice but hits 9 types super-effective). Other combos don't have perfect coverage, but hit many types super-effective (fire/ice, rock/ice and water/ice)

In a hailstorm, Blizzard has the accuracy of Aura Sphere, ignoring even Brightpowder and +Evasion.

Ice is a great type and is super-offensive. No need to boost it.
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Ice is a great attacking type on non-ice types. But how many ice typed Pokemon are OU? Not many, Weavile is all that comes to mind. How many are more hindered by their ice type than helped by it (Articuno)?

Allowing it to resist dragon means they will see more use outside of hail teams while keeping things like Garchomp in check, seems like a win/win to me.
 
Let's make Weezing a 100% Garchomp counter by letting it resist Dragon!!

Also all those Ice types will probably just get fucked by Earthquake as opposed to Outrage, which if it survived, it'd win already. It's not Ice resisting Dragon is going to make people switch Weaviles into it all of a sudden!
 
I don't care if Garchomp stays or goes. My team can handle Garchomp most of the time though.
 
Dragontamer said:
The Shoddybattle ladder should not be a testing grounds.
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The problem with that is that it's also the best testing ground we have, and one that eliminates many of the biases in other forms of testing. Tournaments are too premeditated for accurate testing of a Pokemon in a more real-world setting, special clauses for volunteer testing suffer the same problem. And neither of those is really able to gauge how much pre-existing high-winning teams have to change to adapt to a new Pokemon.

If things are going to be tested, they may as well be tested right the first time.
 
You simply cannot remove the effects of Sand Veil in the game, and thus you cannot do so on a simulator (it fails to simulate the game if you change mechanics like that).

What you can do is ban all Pokemon from using Sand Veil. If a Pokemon only has Sand Veil as an option, then that Pokemon is banned. Alternately, you could ban Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and the move Sandstorm. These are the only two options in a simulator. If we are willing to depart from game mechanics, I don't see why we should stick with several other parts of it.
 
No items, no crits, no traits, Ninetales only, Final Destination.

It might be interesting to heavily toy with hax on a mod server or in a special tournament, but with needing to take out sleep and paralysis too it'd probably just cut way too many options to actually be entertaining.
 
Obi said:
You simply cannot remove the effects of Sand Veil in the game, and thus you cannot do so on a simulator (it fails to simulate the game if you change mechanics like that).

What you can do is ban all Pokemon from using Sand Veil. If a Pokemon only has Sand Veil as an option, then that Pokemon is banned. Alternately, you could ban Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and the move Sandstorm. These are the only two options in a simulator. If we are willing to depart from game mechanics, I don't see why we should stick with several other parts of it.
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If Pokemons with the ability Sand Veil is going to be banned, should Pokemons with Snow Cloak be banned too?
 
Without going too much into detail, I've found from simply playing shoddy that while garchomp can be annoying (bastard survives an extremespeed from adamant lucario even after a swords dance and two layers of spikes >.>), I've never found him to be cheap or overly difficult to kill. I guess I can see where the topic creator is coming from but either way I'm not particularly opinionated.
 
Agiligross can come in on Stone Edge, Swords Dance, or Outrage, Agility, and 2HKO's with Meteor Mash. You don't even have to Agility to beat SDchomp. It's harder to get a SD if your team is better at preventing it. I've never had any sort of Garchomp ever be a problem.
 
Why don't we just give it, own tempo or oblivious ( one of the not useless but almost useless abilities) on competitor and shoddy and call it OU?
 
Pork chop said:
Why don't we just give it, own tempo or oblivious ( one of the not useless but almost useless abilities) on competitor and shoddy and call it OU?
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Why don't we give Groudon slow start and make it OU? Maybe we should take away dragon dance from rayquaza and make it OU too. Then we could lower all of Arceus's base stats to 100, take away extremespeed, and take away multitype and call it OU.
 
Guys sorry it took me so long to post but I was busy :), I'm not gonna bother quoting each individual points, but let me just point out some of the arguments I've seen so far.

-Organization/Spell Check
My internet is acting really retarded and its a pain uploading it from WordPad to Smogon. This thread took about three hours to write, I'd like to see other people's Harvard English skills while they're complaining about mine.

-Only using calc's for CBchomp is misleading.
I specifically state in my thread that I'm not familiar with the other versions of Garchomp (I don't use them) so I didn't go into that much detail. I consider Adamant CBchomp the most dangerous version with the points I've illustrated. I use CBchomp as a means of describing how unsafe every Garchomp counter is of switching in.

-I use/see Garchomp's all the time and its not an automatic win.
I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing Garchomp is too broken for OU for all the reasons I've stated.

-Sandstorm/Stealth Rock isn't always on the field
If you want to play best case scenario AGAINST Garchomp, then that's fine by me. However, I like to think that Garchomp is gonna be in its best enviroment. This argument has some faultiness to it, but think about this for a second. Sandstream is automatic on two of the most popular pokemon, lasts forever, and is a staple of many teams. Addtionally, its a pain in the ass to get rid of (Try switching Abomasnow into most pokemon in SS teams, try setting up Sunny Day and Rain Dance while your at it.) And c'mon, Stealth rock is one of the best moves in the game, is a pain in the ass to get rid of, and is featured on nearly EVERY team. The best part about it is that you dont even have to run SS on your team to get the Evasion boost since so many other people use SS.

These are all the ones I can think of now, I have to go to work, but I'll be back later to adress some other concerns.

**Ninija edit: can an admin please change my thread title? I meant the most broken pokemon in OU, no is.
 
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