Weavile@Focus Sash
-Ice Punch
-Ice Shard
-Night Slash
-Brick Break
There ya go =]
-Ice Punch
-Ice Shard
-Night Slash
-Brick Break
There ya go =]
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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
- Start date
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It doesn't. I'm not assuming that Chomp has a SD. I've never had a Chomp get the time to put one up.
So does stone edge but people still risk a DD/waterfall to try to kill Gyardos with it.
Sandstorm fucks up F-Sash.... Also how do you plan to switch weaville in safely? Also Garchomp can switch out and ruin your F-sash by switching in a sandstorm pokemon.
I don't think it makes much sense to point out that Garchomp has no counters. Many OU sweepers don't. Dragonite, Salamence, Infernape, Tyranitar, Lucario, Breloom ,Gengar all don't have counters. Sure none of those have an ability that gives you +20 evasion in sand, but let's look at the abilities they have: Ttar has Sandstream, Breloom Poison heal, Salamence Intimidate, Gengar Levitate. Some of the best abilities in the game (Blaze and Inner Focus aren't as great, but on those pokemon anything else is terribly scary).
So with that in mind, why run calcs to show that nothing comes in safely on Garchomp? We know that. But nothing can come in safely on those pokemon that I named as well.
I think we're just going to have to accept that some OU pokemon have no counters until you know their set.
So with that in mind, why run calcs to show that nothing comes in safely on Garchomp? We know that. But nothing can come in safely on those pokemon that I named as well.
I think we're just going to have to accept that some OU pokemon have no counters until you know their set.
Dragonite: Dies to Gengar HP ice and Gengar doesnt have to worry about sand veil hax.
Salamence: Sp. attacker has got nothing on Blissey. Mix Mence is beaten easily with prediction because sand veil hax cant make your counter miss.
Infernape: Cresselia
Tyranitar: Dies from any strong ground attack really. Most are CB'ed and easy to defeat.
Lucario: Gliscor walls physical sets easily. I have not used the special set so I dont know about that one.
Breloom: Make one of your pokemon take the sleep. Celebi walls it completely.
Gengar: Blissey walls it and Focus Blast is usually a 3hko (unless using specs)... explosion will kill him with blissey so I consider Blissey a counter even in tha situation since it does defeat gengar with it.
Now I know Garchomp can somewhat be countered, but the 20+ evasion really makes this difficult and too dependent on luck. If you need luck in order to counter a pokemon successfully then IMO it is too broken.
Likewise, you simply cannot use freeze clause in game, yet many people on shoddy use it. Unless there is a problem writing the code for something like this, I don't see why this can't be done.
Don't take what I'm saying as an implication of changing abilities to make them OU. The only reason I'm even considering it is because we already have an evasion clause and this wouldn't be much more than an extension of it.
Kira, a lot of what you just posted are not 100% counters in the slightest.
I am agreeing with "It doesn't need to have 100% counters to be OU". If that's the case, Tangrowth ought to be moved to ubers, because there is not a single OU Pokemon that can wall absolutely everything that it can use. As fucking awesome as Tangrowth is, no uber for sure.
The same goes for more obvious examples like Lucario.
I think people are looking at it the wrong way; not one specific Pokemon that can reliably switch in to every form of a Pokemon, but one set of a Pokemon that can't be reliably switched in to, and debate from there.
What about Sleep Clause? On WiFi, when Sleep Clause is in effect, and a Pokemon uses uses a sleep move against a Pokemon, they are still free to sleep anything else they want, but they are disqualified. On simulators, the second sleep move will just say "But it failed!" or something similar. You can't abuse Serene Grace Blissey on a simulator, or Lum Berry Wobbuffet.
I am agreeing with "It doesn't need to have 100% counters to be OU". If that's the case, Tangrowth ought to be moved to ubers, because there is not a single OU Pokemon that can wall absolutely everything that it can use. As fucking awesome as Tangrowth is, no uber for sure.
The same goes for more obvious examples like Lucario.
I think people are looking at it the wrong way; not one specific Pokemon that can reliably switch in to every form of a Pokemon, but one set of a Pokemon that can't be reliably switched in to, and debate from there.
What about Sleep Clause? On WiFi, when Sleep Clause is in effect, and a Pokemon uses uses a sleep move against a Pokemon, they are still free to sleep anything else they want, but they are disqualified. On simulators, the second sleep move will just say "But it failed!" or something similar. You can't abuse Serene Grace Blissey on a simulator, or Lum Berry Wobbuffet.
None of those pokes (barring Loom) actually have 100% true counters until you know the set, this isn't Cross or Heatran (Walled by Gliscor and Milotic, respectively). These are unpredictable pokemon. I admit that it is certainly very annoying that you have a 20% chance of losing a pokemon unfairly due to sand veil but pokemon is still full of percentages. Your counter might get "haxed" by these other pokemon as well (Focus Blast drops Sp. Def, Lucario criticals Hippowdon).
Uh then by your logic anything with Brightpowder on it is uncounterable, as they have to worry about the low chance it could miss.
This Garchomp situation kind of reminds me of the celebi/jirachi hate in RSE. IMO if so many people would like to see it banned and give a valid reason, I'd suggest to test it out of OU for a while....But of course it's going to come down to that little group of older Smogon IRCers who don't really give a crap what the all of the posters on the past 3 Garchomp threads think and will make their own decision for the majority. Am I not correct?
My point is: just test a OU Metagame without Garchomp and see whether the game is more versitile/overcentralized and then make your decision.
My point is: just test a OU Metagame without Garchomp and see whether the game is more versitile/overcentralized and then make your decision.
Probably because they are more knowledgeable then you, have more experience then you, and uhm, lets not forget, RUN THE SITE.
This topics are pointless, because as Jump has already stated way back on page 3 (iirc):
Crunch 2HKOs with a Defense drop on 252/252 Positive, and Swampert can't KO a Ttar without significant EV investment. Plus there's always HP Grass!
And as for Hitmontop, Fire Blast can burn on the switch in, plus you have no reliable recovery, so you can't take repeated attacks.
when was the last time you've seen a tyranitar with hp grass? And there's an 80% chance the defense drop won't happen. And remember you could always use a 252/252 impish CB swampert.
There's also an 80% chance Ice Beam won't miss...
And if my attack crits you're dead burn or not. see, relying on hax to win isn't good. (garchomp is different because sand veil is just a cheap bonus)
I haven't seen Ttar with HP Grass, but don't discount it. And the 80% chance of the defense drop not happening is the same 80% chance of you NOT missing a Chomp, is it not? The only real pokemon that can take Ttar on is probably Hariyama, but even then, it can get burned.
This is just stupid ok, if hariyama isn't a ttar counter because of burn then skarmory isn't a cb weavile counter because "Ice punch might crit" or "ice punch might freeze"
I was fairly certain that CB Tar 2HKO Hariyama with Earthquake, but regardless, it's a definite 2HKO with CB Aerial Ace, so take that off the list.
It's my understanding that you can enforce these on PBR or whatever version goes with DP.
Hariyama can have Guts or Thick Fat, so Burn doesn't help.
No BP is only 8%.... 8% and 20% are different as one will make a 100% accurate move 92% while the other will make it 80%
And I didnt say uncounterable, I said it relies too much on luck.
If you need luck to counter something then it is obviously broken.
Hello. I'm WindScar and I'm an extreme Garchomp user. I use only 1 team, never change it, and Garchamp is one of the six. I just saw this thread and had to reply. Garchomp is NOT uber. People just don't know how to deal with him properly.
He's an awesome pokémon, but there's one thing that'll stop it, ever. Skill. The reason it's so threatening to you is because you don't know how to deal with him. People keep trying to send their "Garchomp Counters". Failure! It's just what I need to build my way to victory, because Garchomp got NO counters. But it IS stoppable, just in different ways. Just think differently, evaluate the situation and do the right moves to stop him. I could write down a guide of how stop almost every Garchomp with almost every OU team in almost every sittuation. But I'm not stupid.
I guarantee you that almost 90% of the people I win with Garchomp HAD something that they could do to stop me. I say that because I know what it is. But They don't realize it, and so I proceed to victory.
Edit: And if you don't trust me, I challange you. Make a team with Garchomp. You can even use more than one if you want. I'll not just stop it but use it to build my way to victory. Using my main team; that one I never changed.
And then just stop with that shameless uber bullshit and find yourself the right way to deal with Garchomp.
He's an awesome pokémon, but there's one thing that'll stop it, ever. Skill. The reason it's so threatening to you is because you don't know how to deal with him. People keep trying to send their "Garchomp Counters". Failure! It's just what I need to build my way to victory, because Garchomp got NO counters. But it IS stoppable, just in different ways. Just think differently, evaluate the situation and do the right moves to stop him. I could write down a guide of how stop almost every Garchomp with almost every OU team in almost every sittuation. But I'm not stupid.
I guarantee you that almost 90% of the people I win with Garchomp HAD something that they could do to stop me. I say that because I know what it is. But They don't realize it, and so I proceed to victory.
Edit: And if you don't trust me, I challange you. Make a team with Garchomp. You can even use more than one if you want. I'll not just stop it but use it to build my way to victory. Using my main team; that one I never changed.
And then just stop with that shameless uber bullshit and find yourself the right way to deal with Garchomp.
I disagree. Why?
Because I can (and have) used your counters arguments that you have for Garchomp for Tyranitar, Garchomp, Salamence and Lucario. The counters argument is inherently flawed because it makes too many assumptions regarding the specific scenario in battle.
Your second argument is irrelevant. It assumes OHKO'ing Garchomp is a necessity, which is not true at all. Sure, Weavile has to OHKO it...which it does with Life Orb and Max Attack (which is the most common) everytime with Life Orb.
Your third argument might be the most relevant. Because I can build any team that can fall due to sand veil hax, I might support removing Sand Veil as Garchomp's ability. People might complain that we are removing Gamefreak's intentions by doing this...but who gives a crap? Instead of banning a Pokemon, why not just the ability? We already ban evasion moves, people have been clamoring for evasion items to be banned for a while now, so evasion abilities are only around the corner.
My point is your first 2 arguments really should hold no bearing whatsoever. The counters argument has always been and will always be flawed, and the your second argument is largely irrelevant.
The only big problem Garchomp has is with Sand Veil hax. Remove that, remove the problems.
Because I can (and have) used your counters arguments that you have for Garchomp for Tyranitar, Garchomp, Salamence and Lucario. The counters argument is inherently flawed because it makes too many assumptions regarding the specific scenario in battle.
Your second argument is irrelevant. It assumes OHKO'ing Garchomp is a necessity, which is not true at all. Sure, Weavile has to OHKO it...which it does with Life Orb and Max Attack (which is the most common) everytime with Life Orb.
Your third argument might be the most relevant. Because I can build any team that can fall due to sand veil hax, I might support removing Sand Veil as Garchomp's ability. People might complain that we are removing Gamefreak's intentions by doing this...but who gives a crap? Instead of banning a Pokemon, why not just the ability? We already ban evasion moves, people have been clamoring for evasion items to be banned for a while now, so evasion abilities are only around the corner.
My point is your first 2 arguments really should hold no bearing whatsoever. The counters argument has always been and will always be flawed, and the your second argument is largely irrelevant.
The only big problem Garchomp has is with Sand Veil hax. Remove that, remove the problems.
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