IDK why Gamefreak is so focused on "Always end with the Ace". It makes sense to a degree, it lets the player ease into the fight and means that both the fight is easier because setup is viable and harder because your counter is worn down, but there's a lot of fights that would work better if the best pokemon/generational gimmick came out sooner. Geeta is a perfect example, Glimmora is definitely her defining mon just based on design. But she could lead with Tera-Glimmora, hit the player with Double-STAB Tera Blast to prevent setup, and when you knock it out there's probably 2 layers of TSpikes on the field to punish you for the rest of the fight(ending with full-power Kingambit. DMax was the same, yes it's impressive to end with the Kaiju V Kaiju fight, but if you set up weather earlier, the fight's a LOT harder for the player and might encourage different strategies.
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
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I'm not sure why you were expecting a pokemon not present in the game files to be in reg D.
We have known all the pokemon available until the DLCs for a while.
Oh. Well cause they are letting in stuff from legends Arceus. Zubat is in there, and is iconic.
The Pokemon they allowed were ones already in the game's code, which amounted to:
-the SWSH DLC new Pokemon
-Any regional/alternate forms of Pokemon already in the game
-The new LA Pokemon
-An assortment of legendary & mythical Pokemon
-An assortment of starter Pokemon
-Carbink
There's one Trainer that leads with his Ace: HGSS Bugsy. Leads with Scyther, but he's using U-Turn strat.
....and Glimmora does not learn Volt Switch or any pivoting moves, because you know you can't rely on GF's trainer AI to switch out. There's Memento and Explosion, but of course you wouldn't unalived your Ace, would you?
Tera Normal Explosion tho.
Right, so this post has been a long time coming but let's goooo, essay time.
It's time to talk about one of the worst crimes HGSS committed: Silver. Namely, his dialogue and general characterisation. Namely, ruining both of these things.
Silver is one of the better-written characters in the early series by my estimation, and while his arc gets some welcome expansion in HGSS it's handled... variably, to say the least. I'm actually not even bothered that the English versions failed to include the explicit confirmation that he's Giovanni's son - it's canon in multiple other continuities, and basically confirmed in FRLG anyway. But what I really take issue with in the remakes is how his dialogue is written (as well as how the script is written in general, but let's stick to Silver for now).
Anyway, let's start by discussing his character.
So GSC established a pretty well-written character, with an arc that's done pretty well. Did HGSS improve it any? Let's see. This might get long, so I'm going to break up Silver's arc into three broad chunks: 1) early-game asshole, 2) epiphany and gradual change, 3) late-game "new man".
It's time to talk about one of the worst crimes HGSS committed: Silver. Namely, his dialogue and general characterisation. Namely, ruining both of these things.
Silver is one of the better-written characters in the early series by my estimation, and while his arc gets some welcome expansion in HGSS it's handled... variably, to say the least. I'm actually not even bothered that the English versions failed to include the explicit confirmation that he's Giovanni's son - it's canon in multiple other continuities, and basically confirmed in FRLG anyway. But what I really take issue with in the remakes is how his dialogue is written (as well as how the script is written in general, but let's stick to Silver for now).
Anyway, let's start by discussing his character.
Silver's whole vibe is that of a guy who, after being turned down by a girl, says "ah I'm not even interested anyway, you're really ugly" in a pathetic attempt to save face - anything he's unable to do is written off by him as not being worth his time in the first place. He's such a prick that he even tries to diminish any enjoyment or satisfaction you might take in beating him: if the player defeats him in the first battle, he scornfully asks "are you happy you won?", almost as if he's trying to shame you by implying that taking satisfaction in a victory is somehow juvenile or undignified. At least he's consistent in his emotional shallowness: if he beats you, he dismisses the fight as "a waste of time" rather than congratulating himself.
I half-seriously wonder if the reason the asshole rival archetype was retired after Gen II was because it was done so well with Silver. His style as a trainer seems to be a more extreme version of what Blue initially does: he seems not to recognise or accept that training involves making a Pokemon stronger and repeatedly indicates that he thinks strong Pokemon are inherently and innately powerful. If he loses, it's because he didn't have a Pokemon that was strong enough. After his loss at Azalea Town, he deems his Pokemon "useless" and assures you that you only won because they were weak; he similarly brushes off his loss to Lance by vowing to obtain better Pokemon before their next fight. He condemns the player and others for using Pokemon that he deems to be unimpressive.
This makes his eventual heel-turn and (partial) redemption after being scolded by Lance all the more stark. While he does eventually concede that he's been lacking the love and compassion a trainer needs, his mannerisms don't change all that much by the end of the game. He's still broadly the same harsh loner he always was - instead the change is more of a meta one, expressed through his usage of Crobat, Alakazam, and Gengar (the former requiring high friendship to evolve, the latter two requiring trading). It's a curiously satisfying change; even for a series as frequently cartoonish as Pokemon can be, a total personality overhaul would have been too unbelievable.
I half-seriously wonder if the reason the asshole rival archetype was retired after Gen II was because it was done so well with Silver. His style as a trainer seems to be a more extreme version of what Blue initially does: he seems not to recognise or accept that training involves making a Pokemon stronger and repeatedly indicates that he thinks strong Pokemon are inherently and innately powerful. If he loses, it's because he didn't have a Pokemon that was strong enough. After his loss at Azalea Town, he deems his Pokemon "useless" and assures you that you only won because they were weak; he similarly brushes off his loss to Lance by vowing to obtain better Pokemon before their next fight. He condemns the player and others for using Pokemon that he deems to be unimpressive.
This makes his eventual heel-turn and (partial) redemption after being scolded by Lance all the more stark. While he does eventually concede that he's been lacking the love and compassion a trainer needs, his mannerisms don't change all that much by the end of the game. He's still broadly the same harsh loner he always was - instead the change is more of a meta one, expressed through his usage of Crobat, Alakazam, and Gengar (the former requiring high friendship to evolve, the latter two requiring trading). It's a curiously satisfying change; even for a series as frequently cartoonish as Pokemon can be, a total personality overhaul would have been too unbelievable.
So GSC established a pretty well-written character, with an arc that's done pretty well. Did HGSS improve it any? Let's see. This might get long, so I'm going to break up Silver's arc into three broad chunks: 1) early-game asshole, 2) epiphany and gradual change, 3) late-game "new man".
So we meet Silver more or less right at the start of GSCHGSS, in which he's sighted outside of Elm's lab before stealing one of the starter Pokemon offscreen. In keeping with his general outlook, he seems to view these as Pokemon of a high value, and even deems the player getting their own starter "a waste" since it's too good for someone he immediately dismisses as a weakling. He doesn't reveal much about himself during this exchange, save that he's out to be the world's greatest trainer. Cool.
The next encounter with Silver isn't too long after this: on the top floor of Sprout Tower, having just defeated the Elder. We arrive just as the battle concludes, getting a neat ground-shaking animation to imply a particularly rough conflict playing out. Fittingly, we hear the Elder counselling him that his battling style is much too harsh, adding that "Pokemon are not tools of war". Silver's words to the player before departing reinforce the notion that strength is all he's interested in:
The quotes here aren't precisely like-for-like, but convey pretty much exactly the same message. While the HGSS version is ever so slightly more protracted, it's not terribly written. We learn a little more about him here: he just wants to win, no questions asked. He doesn't have the patience for Pokemon he considers weak. What's driving him specifically, though, is still pretty unclear. But we don't have to wait long for him to tell us. After the player meets and battles him in Azalea Town, Silver has this to say:
This quote is one of my favourites, because it gives us a good insight into how Silver views the world. He's disgusted by the idea of weakness, and in fact thinks that anyone weak deserves to be wiped out. It's a standard "the strong survive" mindset, and he makes no secret of the fact that he intends to survive by being strong.
Clearly something happened in his past that made him think this way, though we don't learn precisely what. Maybe he was just raised that way. Maybe he had some sort of traumatic incident. Either way, it's quite transparent that it's a defensive mindset he's adopted. We also learn that he's got a grievance with Team Rocket, though why exactly this is the case is initially a mystery. Maybe there's an old quarrel there, or maybe they're just a very visible example of the weakness he despises - it's a total mystery.
So, does HGSS add anything of note? Um, yes and no. So here we have our first noticeable (and thoroughly pointless) rewrite to his dialogue; let's briefly cast an eye over everything that's wrong with it (changes bolded)...
"I'm going to be strong and wipe out the weak" becomes "I hate to see them hanging around". Eh? What the fuck does that even mean? A sharply-written sentence that speaks volumes about his mindset, history, and priorities becomes a bland declaration that... doesn't really say anything. He literally already said he hates the weak. Is his major grievance with the weak that they... hang around?
The changes to his sixth sentence just make it longer and wordier. "They act big and tough" becomes "they think they are big and tough" which... really just weakens the point he's making, since "they act" indicates that Team Rocket know full well how pathetic they are and their tough-guy act is purely for show. Saying that they think they're big and tough indicates that they really believe it. The second change in that same sentence just flat-out isn't needed, it's just more words to say exactly the same thing. Also, the lack of contractions makes the sentence sound oddly formal.
He finishes by telling us to stay out of his way, and then says that we shouldn't get in his way. Firstly, that repetition is horrifically clunky. Couple that with the fact that we literally just defeated him, so his threat to defeat us if we don't stay out of his way falls flat. It's a definite downgrade in terms of both characterisation and threat compared to his dialogue in GSC where he's clearly brushing off the loss by branding us "a distraction" from the very real and important work he thinks he ought to be doing.
In sum, the first paragraph is strongly written: the second is clumsy, unspecific, and doesn't characterise him well. Any guesses on whether this is going to become a trend?
Okay, so we've got a problem here. What really bugs me about a lot of the dialogue in HGSS (I'll stick to specifically Silver's here, though) is that while it is essentially the same in broad strokes, instead of just transplanting the dialogue from the original translation where appropriate they seem to started from scratch and not used the original for reference at all. The result... isn't great, to be blunt. Nob Ogasawara is credited for localising the text in GSC, while Yasuhiro Usui and Mikiko Ryu are credited for HGSS. With no disrespect to either of the latter two individuals, their translation stinks.
That's me putting it kindly. As a native English speaker, Silver's text often reads like it's been put through Google Translate: his speech patterns and phrases are highly unnatural and don't read like things that people would actually say.
Don't believe me? Have a couple of examples. Here's his text in Olivine in GSC:
Cool, not bad at all. It's a delightfully nasty moment, short and to the point. And the dialogue is dynamic and in-character. Time to turn to the HGSS version which is, you guessed it, clunky as fuck (changes bolded):
Right, so:
This is probably his weakest section of dialogue overall in the originals, and a pretty limp justification for a battle. Crystal improved this by making him furious that there's seemingly nothing in the tower worth making the trip for and blaming the player for his misfortune:
Still doesn't make a whole lot of sense - but then again, irrational anger rarely does...
Anyway, let's see how HGSS handled this (changes bolded):
So that's the early/mid-game Silver, where he's at his rudest and most confrontational. The turning point in his arc comes, of course, from him encountering - and losing to - Lance, who scolds him over his treatment of his Pokemon. It's disappointing to have such a pivotal moment occur offscreen, but I think enough is given to us to make this moment work anyway: Silver relates their conversation to us, and Lance briefly reflects on his concern over their encounter before changing the subject.
Similarly, I think it's cool that various NPCs mention having met Silver too: a Pokemaniac near Mahogany complains that Silver criticised his team, and a Cooltrainer outside Victory Road says that she lost to Silver and was troubled by how hard he drove his Pokemon. It's a good way to remind us that he's out there, since his name never appears on gym statues like Blue does (even though he does challenge the monks at Sprout Tower and claims an HM, and apparently seeks to challenge Olivine Gym... part of me wonders if he simply randomly challenges gym leaders purely to test his own strength, and doesn't even bother collecting a badge if he wins. And with so many of Johto's gyms initially inaccessible, he presumably doesn't even bother to wait for them to open up and just moves on).
The next encounter with Silver isn't too long after this: on the top floor of Sprout Tower, having just defeated the Elder. We arrive just as the battle concludes, getting a neat ground-shaking animation to imply a particularly rough conflict playing out. Fittingly, we hear the Elder counselling him that his battling style is much too harsh, adding that "Pokemon are not tools of war". Silver's words to the player before departing reinforce the notion that strength is all he's interested in:
GSC said:
HGSS said:
The quotes here aren't precisely like-for-like, but convey pretty much exactly the same message. While the HGSS version is ever so slightly more protracted, it's not terribly written. We learn a little more about him here: he just wants to win, no questions asked. He doesn't have the patience for Pokemon he considers weak. What's driving him specifically, though, is still pretty unclear. But we don't have to wait long for him to tell us. After the player meets and battles him in Azalea Town, Silver has this to say:
GSC said:
This quote is one of my favourites, because it gives us a good insight into how Silver views the world. He's disgusted by the idea of weakness, and in fact thinks that anyone weak deserves to be wiped out. It's a standard "the strong survive" mindset, and he makes no secret of the fact that he intends to survive by being strong.
Clearly something happened in his past that made him think this way, though we don't learn precisely what. Maybe he was just raised that way. Maybe he had some sort of traumatic incident. Either way, it's quite transparent that it's a defensive mindset he's adopted. We also learn that he's got a grievance with Team Rocket, though why exactly this is the case is initially a mystery. Maybe there's an old quarrel there, or maybe they're just a very visible example of the weakness he despises - it's a total mystery.
So, does HGSS add anything of note? Um, yes and no. So here we have our first noticeable (and thoroughly pointless) rewrite to his dialogue; let's briefly cast an eye over everything that's wrong with it (changes bolded)...
HGSS said:
"I'm going to be strong and wipe out the weak" becomes "I hate to see them hanging around". Eh? What the fuck does that even mean? A sharply-written sentence that speaks volumes about his mindset, history, and priorities becomes a bland declaration that... doesn't really say anything. He literally already said he hates the weak. Is his major grievance with the weak that they... hang around?
The changes to his sixth sentence just make it longer and wordier. "They act big and tough" becomes "they think they are big and tough" which... really just weakens the point he's making, since "they act" indicates that Team Rocket know full well how pathetic they are and their tough-guy act is purely for show. Saying that they think they're big and tough indicates that they really believe it. The second change in that same sentence just flat-out isn't needed, it's just more words to say exactly the same thing. Also, the lack of contractions makes the sentence sound oddly formal.
He finishes by telling us to stay out of his way, and then says that we shouldn't get in his way. Firstly, that repetition is horrifically clunky. Couple that with the fact that we literally just defeated him, so his threat to defeat us if we don't stay out of his way falls flat. It's a definite downgrade in terms of both characterisation and threat compared to his dialogue in GSC where he's clearly brushing off the loss by branding us "a distraction" from the very real and important work he thinks he ought to be doing.
In sum, the first paragraph is strongly written: the second is clumsy, unspecific, and doesn't characterise him well. Any guesses on whether this is going to become a trend?
Okay, so we've got a problem here. What really bugs me about a lot of the dialogue in HGSS (I'll stick to specifically Silver's here, though) is that while it is essentially the same in broad strokes, instead of just transplanting the dialogue from the original translation where appropriate they seem to started from scratch and not used the original for reference at all. The result... isn't great, to be blunt. Nob Ogasawara is credited for localising the text in GSC, while Yasuhiro Usui and Mikiko Ryu are credited for HGSS. With no disrespect to either of the latter two individuals, their translation stinks.
That's me putting it kindly. As a native English speaker, Silver's text often reads like it's been put through Google Translate: his speech patterns and phrases are highly unnatural and don't read like things that people would actually say.
Don't believe me? Have a couple of examples. Here's his text in Olivine in GSC:
GSC said:
Cool, not bad at all. It's a delightfully nasty moment, short and to the point. And the dialogue is dynamic and in-character. Time to turn to the HGSS version which is, you guessed it, clunky as fuck (changes bolded):
HGSS said:
Right, so:
- 1: when have you ever heard anyone say "there's no need to be alert" vs "there's no need to panic"
- 2: holy run-on sentence, Batman
- 3: the final line is awkward, but more annoyingly it's not particularly in-character. Why would Silver care if you're a better trainer? The insult "it may make you a bit less weak" fits with him shoving you once again before leaving. This is like a school bully giving you pointers on how to make your skin less soft so his punches will hurt less (...never happened, I swear)
GS said:
This is probably his weakest section of dialogue overall in the originals, and a pretty limp justification for a battle. Crystal improved this by making him furious that there's seemingly nothing in the tower worth making the trip for and blaming the player for his misfortune:
C said:
Still doesn't make a whole lot of sense - but then again, irrational anger rarely does...
Anyway, let's see how HGSS handled this (changes bolded):
HGSS said:
- 1: I'm honestly struggling as to where to start: this entire paragraph is just... so badly written. Right. Okay. Taking a breath.
- 2: not only is that first segment clunky as hell, it doesn't even make sense. Catching the legendary Pokemon wouldn't make me look strong, it would prove that I am strong. And the certainty with which he says it is weird: surely I've come to try to catch the legendary Pokemon, or at the very least to look for it?
- 3: when have you ever heard someone say "that is only a dream"? I'm sure even Google Translate could manage a better equivalent of "in your dreams" than that.
- 4: "Sworn to become the strongest trainer". In Johto? In PokeJapan? In PokeAsia? In the world? It's also a weird departure from him saying "I'm going to be the world's greatest trainer" in GSC: greatest implies a desire for recognition and glory and acclaim, whereas sworn to become the strongest suggests that he's only concerned with genuinely improving his skill.
- 5: "A battle with Team Rocket Grunts is just right for you". Again, I get the meaning but it's a bizarre and weirdly specific way to put it. Surely something like "you're only fit to battle weaklings like Team Rocket" would be a more apt way of saying this. The way it's written in the quote implies that he's got a few grunts on retainer he's been saving specially for us.
- 6: His defeat line is truly appalling on so many levels - contextually, characteristically, and grammatically. The original is wry and true to his character, as he dismisses losing to the player as being due to him not taking the battle seriously. It's a true staple of the arsehole's bag of rhetorical tricks: "I could beat you whenever I want, I just wasn't trying". The remake version of that line is inferior in every way.
HGSS said:
- There should be a comma, or even an exclamation mark if you're feeling exuberant, between "Hey" and "Team"
- "Stop going around in groups and troubling people!" ...this is an extraordinarily mild way to describe TR's activities. Is that really the most concerning thing about Team Rocket - that they go around in groups? Surely the whole "committing crimes" thing is even more troubling? I know he said that he hates that they act tough in a group, but that's not what comes across here.
- "Troubling people" is also... an incredibly unnatural turn of phrase. Causing/making trouble or bugging/bothering people, surely?
- Him accusing the player of thinking they're strong now they look like a Rocket member is decent enough, but you'd expect his reaction to be far stronger than "that's foolish". Again, how often do you hear someone use that word nowadays?
- Relatedly, the most stinging reprimand he can muster is "you shouldn't wear those things". Thanks, I got that. If you told me that this line was a placeholder someone forgot to change I'd believe you.
- "A typical idea of the meek": again, I understand the meaning but this is a sentence that no-one would ever actually say
- "Be ready for it". Again, a thoroughly stilted and unnatural way to say "you'd better be ready next time we meet" or something to that effect
So that's the early/mid-game Silver, where he's at his rudest and most confrontational. The turning point in his arc comes, of course, from him encountering - and losing to - Lance, who scolds him over his treatment of his Pokemon. It's disappointing to have such a pivotal moment occur offscreen, but I think enough is given to us to make this moment work anyway: Silver relates their conversation to us, and Lance briefly reflects on his concern over their encounter before changing the subject.
Similarly, I think it's cool that various NPCs mention having met Silver too: a Pokemaniac near Mahogany complains that Silver criticised his team, and a Cooltrainer outside Victory Road says that she lost to Silver and was troubled by how hard he drove his Pokemon. It's a good way to remind us that he's out there, since his name never appears on gym statues like Blue does (even though he does challenge the monks at Sprout Tower and claims an HM, and apparently seeks to challenge Olivine Gym... part of me wonders if he simply randomly challenges gym leaders purely to test his own strength, and doesn't even bother collecting a badge if he wins. And with so many of Johto's gyms initially inaccessible, he presumably doesn't even bother to wait for them to open up and just moves on).
So how does HGSS handle his gradual transformation from arrogant strength-obsessed arsehole into more self-aware and compassionate still-kind-of-an-arsehole?
Let's start by looking at what he says when he's encountered in the Team Rocket HQ.
Only one change here, but it's a mystifying one. He accuses the player of messing with Team Rocket... because we like them. That's... a weirdly juvenile thing to say, and nothing about it makes anything resembling sense. Do... do you not see us battling them? You know, like you've presumably been doing throughout the game? By your own logic, wouldn't that mean you like them too?
Also it's another appallingly-written sentence. No-one would say "you must really like x so much" - the correct way of phrasing that would be either "you must really like x" or "you must like x a lot".
Weird - but minor enough to ignore. Moving on to the next encounter in Goldenrod Tunnel:
To account for the additional scene in the Radio Tower, Silver's motivations get slightly tweaked here. In GSC he states his intention to deal with Team Rocket himself, as he presumably did in Mahogany Town. What's funny is that he makes out as though he's forgotten the player defeated him (three times) before, and uses that as a pretext to fight them. But something I initially overlooked is that HGSS makes him much more openly obsessed with Lance, to the point that he seems to think he'll find him in Goldenrod if he follows the player. Which, actually, is a reasonable enough expectation, even if Lance never does help out with the Radio Tower.
This casts a slightly different light on his reflection after the battle. In GSC, you almost get the sense that he kind of stumbles upon the memory of meeting Lance, which prompts him to start doing some self-reflection. In HGSS, he's so obsessed with finding Lance and beating him that it doesn't really ring true that he only just starts to think about Lance's words at this moment. This is where a rewrite would have actually helped; to show precisely how much Lance's reprimand got under his skin and made him doubt himself. As it is, it's odd.
In the originals, Silver isn't seen after this until Victory Road, whereas HGSS adds a short scene in Ecruteak City in which Silver has just been roundly flattened by the Kimono Girls.
This moment really doesn't shed much new light on... well, anything. We learn that the Kimono Girls are strong, sure. But we don't get any sense that Silver has taken Lance's words to heart or is trying to battle in a way that's any different from before. It basically just exists to tell us that we're about to battle someone. Why exactly did Silver attempt to battle them, and why now? Is it simply that it's the first time they're all in the same place? Are they openly inviting challengers from across the region? Did he think that beating them would improve his standing and/or reputation? So many questions, and no answers.
Onto Victory Road, then.
Interestingly, despite his seeming change of heart following the Goldenrod Tunnel battle, Silver still seems to be exactly the same asshole as ever. Even though he says that he's "not like [he] was before", it's evident that he's not telling us that he's suddenly become a caring and compassionate trainer. Instead, his explanation for this is that he now he has the best and strongest Pokemon with him. Which apparently just means Magneton and Kadabra, since they're the only changes to his team since last time.
On paper this is jarring, but in context I'd say it's evident that he's still in denial. He hasn't changed his style overmuch - as evidenced by his Haunter, Golbat, and Kadabra being unevolved - this feels more like one last throw of the dice, an attempt to prove that he can be powerful on his own terms by doing things his own way. When defeated, though, it seems to be the final blow that makes him finally accept that it's not working. He acknowledges that Lance was right, and that he's beginning to see how.
The change HGSS makes to the opening quote is more or less fine, explaining why the place is empty (I'd happily have left that unexplained, but it's not a massive issue) and grudgingly acknowledging the player's strength. But it does clash with the tone of his boast in GSC, which I suppose is why it was changed in its entirety.
So this part of Silver's arc is actually done moderately well. It might not be totally neat in execution, but it at least makes an attempt to expand the character a little bit, which I can appreciate. Let's move onto the third and last part of his arc.
Let's start by looking at what he says when he's encountered in the Team Rocket HQ.
GSC said:
HGSS said:
Only one change here, but it's a mystifying one. He accuses the player of messing with Team Rocket... because we like them. That's... a weirdly juvenile thing to say, and nothing about it makes anything resembling sense. Do... do you not see us battling them? You know, like you've presumably been doing throughout the game? By your own logic, wouldn't that mean you like them too?
Also it's another appallingly-written sentence. No-one would say "you must really like x so much" - the correct way of phrasing that would be either "you must really like x" or "you must like x a lot".
Weird - but minor enough to ignore. Moving on to the next encounter in Goldenrod Tunnel:
GSC said:
HGSS said:
To account for the additional scene in the Radio Tower, Silver's motivations get slightly tweaked here. In GSC he states his intention to deal with Team Rocket himself, as he presumably did in Mahogany Town. What's funny is that he makes out as though he's forgotten the player defeated him (three times) before, and uses that as a pretext to fight them. But something I initially overlooked is that HGSS makes him much more openly obsessed with Lance, to the point that he seems to think he'll find him in Goldenrod if he follows the player. Which, actually, is a reasonable enough expectation, even if Lance never does help out with the Radio Tower.
This casts a slightly different light on his reflection after the battle. In GSC, you almost get the sense that he kind of stumbles upon the memory of meeting Lance, which prompts him to start doing some self-reflection. In HGSS, he's so obsessed with finding Lance and beating him that it doesn't really ring true that he only just starts to think about Lance's words at this moment. This is where a rewrite would have actually helped; to show precisely how much Lance's reprimand got under his skin and made him doubt himself. As it is, it's odd.
In the originals, Silver isn't seen after this until Victory Road, whereas HGSS adds a short scene in Ecruteak City in which Silver has just been roundly flattened by the Kimono Girls.
HGSS said:
This moment really doesn't shed much new light on... well, anything. We learn that the Kimono Girls are strong, sure. But we don't get any sense that Silver has taken Lance's words to heart or is trying to battle in a way that's any different from before. It basically just exists to tell us that we're about to battle someone. Why exactly did Silver attempt to battle them, and why now? Is it simply that it's the first time they're all in the same place? Are they openly inviting challengers from across the region? Did he think that beating them would improve his standing and/or reputation? So many questions, and no answers.
Onto Victory Road, then.
GSC said:
HGSS said:
Interestingly, despite his seeming change of heart following the Goldenrod Tunnel battle, Silver still seems to be exactly the same asshole as ever. Even though he says that he's "not like [he] was before", it's evident that he's not telling us that he's suddenly become a caring and compassionate trainer. Instead, his explanation for this is that he now he has the best and strongest Pokemon with him. Which apparently just means Magneton and Kadabra, since they're the only changes to his team since last time.
On paper this is jarring, but in context I'd say it's evident that he's still in denial. He hasn't changed his style overmuch - as evidenced by his Haunter, Golbat, and Kadabra being unevolved - this feels more like one last throw of the dice, an attempt to prove that he can be powerful on his own terms by doing things his own way. When defeated, though, it seems to be the final blow that makes him finally accept that it's not working. He acknowledges that Lance was right, and that he's beginning to see how.
The change HGSS makes to the opening quote is more or less fine, explaining why the place is empty (I'd happily have left that unexplained, but it's not a massive issue) and grudgingly acknowledging the player's strength. But it does clash with the tone of his boast in GSC, which I suppose is why it was changed in its entirety.
So this part of Silver's arc is actually done moderately well. It might not be totally neat in execution, but it at least makes an attempt to expand the character a little bit, which I can appreciate. Let's move onto the third and last part of his arc.
The battle with Silver at Mt Moon is actually my favourite encounter with him. After the player defeats the Elite Four for the first time, Silver drops out of the story for a while and isn't seen again until the player has explored most of Kanto and made it to Mt Moon. In his absence, we see that he actually seems to have taken Lance's words to heart and engaged in some serious self-reflection:
Here, his mindset has changed quite startlingly. It's not that he blames his Pokemon for the loss; in fact, for the first time, he's emphasising his bond with them. What's striking is that without context you could almost read this as being from any other rival in the series; he's less combative than he was before, and his dialogue indicates that - rather than declaring again that he just needs to find stronger Pokemon - he's actually improved in skill: he's just still not as skillful as you are.
Which makes it all the more painful that HGSS wrecks this moment entirely.
Let's briefly summarise everything that sucks about this:
I also really dislike that the dialogue signals so blatantly that he's going to Dragon's Den after this fight. It's a purely personal peeve, granted, but in the originals finding Silver there was a neat surprise long after I'd cleared the game. While I'm aware that the tag battle in Dragon's Den is a requirement to trigger his rematches at Indigo Plateau, doing it in this way is like screaming "YOU MUST GO TO DRAGON'S DEN NOW."
So let's head over to Dragon's Den, where Silver goes on certain days to train. Interestingly, the elder in the Dragon's Den directly compares Silver to Clair when Silver is present:
Clair and Silver make an interesting comparison. We can presume that Clair treats her Pokemon with more affection than Silver initially does, but her bullheadedness and unwillingness to accept that the player beat her fairly do echo his attitude more than a little. We can also reasonably assume that Clair, having the good guidance and mentorship Silver seems to be lacking, will grow out of this mindset - and of course she does eventually back down and apologise for her behaviour to the player (though remains defiant and warns them not to lose to the Elite Four).
So the parallel between them is an interesting one, even if we don't ever see them interact in GSC. Whether he defeated her to gain access to Dragon's Den is unclear - I'm thinking not, as they seem unfamiliar with each other when they later meet. The implication seems to be that the elder permitted him entry, but refuses to give him anything beyond that; perhaps he's testing Silver, wanting him to come to some sort of personal breakthrough on his own without any external prodding before he'll agree to train him.
So the setup here is quite thought-provoking... and then HGSS opts to resolve it in the least interesting way imaginable.
Approaching Silver, he says the following:
This, and the prior Mt Moon dialogue, embody one of my biggest gripes with HGSS Silver: he reads like he's much younger in these games (it doesn't help that his sprite in HGSS makes him look far younger than his GSC sprites do, too). Why is he initially so combative? In contrast to his dialogue in GSC, in which he expresses a sense of duty to his Pokemon's wellbeing, acknowledging the importance of knowing his and his team's limits, he sounds ridiculously immature and petulant here. It completely wrecks the notion that he's gained any humility or self-awareness.
Edit: Forgot to add this, but it's also - again - semantically unsound. "I took my time coming all the way here" doesn't make sense: "I took my time" means that you purposefully dawdled, ergo the journey lasted longer than it should have done. But "all the way here" generally is taken to imply that the distance referred to is an inconveniently far distance to travel. So what this sentence would appear to be saying is "I purposefully made an already inconveniently long and difficult journey take even more time than it already should have done", which doesn't make much sense unless we're meant to assume that this was the intention. And it's fairly clear that we aren't.
What I think this sentence is trying to say is: "I took the time to come all the way here" (emphasis mine). When someone says this (ex: "I took the time to help you") they're saying they willingly gave up some of their precious time to do something they didn't have to do. Which is closer to the intended effect I think we're meant to be getting: Silver is bitching that even though he purposefully gave up on whatever else he could have been doing to make this difficult journey, the Master doesn't appreciate his sacrifice and he feels like he made the effort for nothing.
Then Lance and Clair show up:
So Silver rejects Clair out of hand... because her costume is embarrassing. Okay, that's underwhelming. Plus you've gotta love Lance picking the player instead of his cousin. Poor Clair, no-one's first choice to partner with.
But here's my real issue: wouldn't it have been a much stronger moment if it were Clair and Silver who teamed up? Clair wants to beat Lance, Silver wants to beat both you and Lance. Sure, maybe it's cooler for players to get to team up with Silver - and maybe the developers felt that it would have been overwhelming for Lance to be the player's partner, since his levels are way higher than Clair's. It's a weirdly lopsided battle all around: Silver and Clair's Pokemon are in the high 50s capping at 60, but Lance's team ranges from 68-75. Right, so it's consistent with his rematch team... did it have to be? Granted, it's a tough fight - largely because Silver's team isn't great. He's decent enough if he has Feraligatr, since it knows Ice Fang.
So hey, here's an idea - why not give players the choice? Have all three characters make their case to team up with you, and let the player set the terms of the fight. A similar thing is done with the Striaton triplets in B2W2: each offers to partner the player against the other two. As it is, it's just hugely underwhelming, not least because it's a one-time event.
Plus we've got another round of badly-written dialogue:
I had to check if Bulbapedia had transcribed this line incorrectly but no, it is literally "I am not giving up beating you". Uh, I think there should be an "on" in that sentence.
But what he says is kind of heartfelt, and more rather emotive than what he says to the player in GSC - which again, makes him sound much younger and more earnest compared to his more downbeat and cynical portrayal there. But then when encountered on subsequent occasions, he says:
You'd think I'd be hard-pressed to take issue with this, but I do. Specificity in writing matters: by changing one word, the meaning of the whole sentence changes with it. In GSC it's stay out of my way while in HGSS it's stay out of the way. The former is pointed and rude; the latter is bland and unmemorable. Again, it diminishes his character. His HGSS quote might as well be giving you life advice to be unobtrusive and avoid making waves.
The HGSS quote just... also doesn't really fit with the tone of his last statement to the player. In GSC he expressly tells you he won't fight you now; he's here to train and focus on himself. His parting comment in HGSS sounds like an open invitation for you to come back any time.
And now we go to the last battle with him: his Indigo Plateau rematch.
Like I said earlier, his overall demeanour hasn't much changed from how he was before. He's still blunt and forthright, but he's less given to personal attacks - he doesn't call you a weakling or talk about how much better he is than you. Nor does he repeat his earlier claim that he now has the strongest Pokemon - instead he very clearly says that he's trained them well enough to finally win against you, though admittedly still not in very friendly terms. It's not much, but it's there.
His losing text, again, is subtly different to previous times - he doesn't blame his Pokemon, or even you. Instead he acknowledges that what's lacking is himself - but he covers it up and tries to save face with a defensive command to the player that they should try not to lose before exiting.
Like I said, it's subtle - but it's a noticeable change from how he was before. You get the sense that over time he and the player might even one day be friends. But we don't see that happen because that's a long time coming, and he's got a while to go before then. What counts is that he's making the effort.
So the opening quote here is more or less the same - only the post-battle text is changed. And, um...
...remember when I said a total personality overhaul wouldn't have worked?
Yeah, this is it. He apologises for getting in the way... and then reminds the player to heal up. What? I'm sorry, does that sound like anything Silver would say? This is too far. This is too drastic a change.
I guess that final quote really encapsulates everything I take issue with regarding how Silver is portrayed in the remakes. All the edge and toughness just gets sanded right off, and his moody, succinct dialogue gets stretched out to a point that's neither naturalistic or believable. And by the end of the game, he's been contorted to the point that he's pretty much a different character altogether. It's a frustrating change because he isn't written well enough in the remakes to make the character arc feel particularly engaging or earned.
Yeah. To reiterate, I really dislike what was done with Silver in HGSS. GSC does a pretty great job with most of its characters, and many suffer in the remakes - but none more so than this guy.
GSC said:
Here, his mindset has changed quite startlingly. It's not that he blames his Pokemon for the loss; in fact, for the first time, he's emphasising his bond with them. What's striking is that without context you could almost read this as being from any other rival in the series; he's less combative than he was before, and his dialogue indicates that - rather than declaring again that he just needs to find stronger Pokemon - he's actually improved in skill: he's just still not as skillful as you are.
Which makes it all the more painful that HGSS wrecks this moment entirely.
HGSS said:
Let's briefly summarise everything that sucks about this:
- Uninteresting nonspecific dialogue ("the trainers in Kanto are strong, which is good for training because I am also a trainer")
- In the original his justification for battling you is almost as if to prove himself to you; he suggests that he's had some sort of epiphany and wants to test its validity and show you how he's changed. In the remake it's just "you're tough, but I'm not afraid to challenge you". Again, uninteresting and unspecific
- Mid-battle, he nonsensically says he thought we came to Kanto to show off - er, what?
- He also bids the player farewell, which feels bizarrely out of character because this is something he otherwise never does (even after this battle when he's nominally friendlier). His closing remark is pretty much always some variation on "next time I see you, watch out - because I'm going to beat you".
I also really dislike that the dialogue signals so blatantly that he's going to Dragon's Den after this fight. It's a purely personal peeve, granted, but in the originals finding Silver there was a neat surprise long after I'd cleared the game. While I'm aware that the tag battle in Dragon's Den is a requirement to trigger his rematches at Indigo Plateau, doing it in this way is like screaming "YOU MUST GO TO DRAGON'S DEN NOW."
So let's head over to Dragon's Den, where Silver goes on certain days to train. Interestingly, the elder in the Dragon's Den directly compares Silver to Clair when Silver is present:
Clair and Silver make an interesting comparison. We can presume that Clair treats her Pokemon with more affection than Silver initially does, but her bullheadedness and unwillingness to accept that the player beat her fairly do echo his attitude more than a little. We can also reasonably assume that Clair, having the good guidance and mentorship Silver seems to be lacking, will grow out of this mindset - and of course she does eventually back down and apologise for her behaviour to the player (though remains defiant and warns them not to lose to the Elite Four).
So the parallel between them is an interesting one, even if we don't ever see them interact in GSC. Whether he defeated her to gain access to Dragon's Den is unclear - I'm thinking not, as they seem unfamiliar with each other when they later meet. The implication seems to be that the elder permitted him entry, but refuses to give him anything beyond that; perhaps he's testing Silver, wanting him to come to some sort of personal breakthrough on his own without any external prodding before he'll agree to train him.
So the setup here is quite thought-provoking... and then HGSS opts to resolve it in the least interesting way imaginable.
Approaching Silver, he says the following:
GSC said:
HGSS said:
This, and the prior Mt Moon dialogue, embody one of my biggest gripes with HGSS Silver: he reads like he's much younger in these games (it doesn't help that his sprite in HGSS makes him look far younger than his GSC sprites do, too). Why is he initially so combative? In contrast to his dialogue in GSC, in which he expresses a sense of duty to his Pokemon's wellbeing, acknowledging the importance of knowing his and his team's limits, he sounds ridiculously immature and petulant here. It completely wrecks the notion that he's gained any humility or self-awareness.
Edit: Forgot to add this, but it's also - again - semantically unsound. "I took my time coming all the way here" doesn't make sense: "I took my time" means that you purposefully dawdled, ergo the journey lasted longer than it should have done. But "all the way here" generally is taken to imply that the distance referred to is an inconveniently far distance to travel. So what this sentence would appear to be saying is "I purposefully made an already inconveniently long and difficult journey take even more time than it already should have done", which doesn't make much sense unless we're meant to assume that this was the intention. And it's fairly clear that we aren't.
What I think this sentence is trying to say is: "I took the time to come all the way here" (emphasis mine). When someone says this (ex: "I took the time to help you") they're saying they willingly gave up some of their precious time to do something they didn't have to do. Which is closer to the intended effect I think we're meant to be getting: Silver is bitching that even though he purposefully gave up on whatever else he could have been doing to make this difficult journey, the Master doesn't appreciate his sacrifice and he feels like he made the effort for nothing.
Then Lance and Clair show up:
HGSS said:
So Silver rejects Clair out of hand... because her costume is embarrassing. Okay, that's underwhelming. Plus you've gotta love Lance picking the player instead of his cousin. Poor Clair, no-one's first choice to partner with.
But here's my real issue: wouldn't it have been a much stronger moment if it were Clair and Silver who teamed up? Clair wants to beat Lance, Silver wants to beat both you and Lance. Sure, maybe it's cooler for players to get to team up with Silver - and maybe the developers felt that it would have been overwhelming for Lance to be the player's partner, since his levels are way higher than Clair's. It's a weirdly lopsided battle all around: Silver and Clair's Pokemon are in the high 50s capping at 60, but Lance's team ranges from 68-75. Right, so it's consistent with his rematch team... did it have to be? Granted, it's a tough fight - largely because Silver's team isn't great. He's decent enough if he has Feraligatr, since it knows Ice Fang.
So hey, here's an idea - why not give players the choice? Have all three characters make their case to team up with you, and let the player set the terms of the fight. A similar thing is done with the Striaton triplets in B2W2: each offers to partner the player against the other two. As it is, it's just hugely underwhelming, not least because it's a one-time event.
Plus we've got another round of badly-written dialogue:
- A double battle is "really not bad"? Don't you mean "a double battle isn't so bad" or "a double battle could be fun"?
- Also, Lance completely avoids answering Silver's question. Rather than saying "we can fight one-on-one another time" or "Clair and I are training together at the minute, so it'd be cool for us all to get involved" he just says... a double battle is really not bad.
- (Plus it's a multi battle, not a double battle. Imagine being the Champion and not knowing that)
- Silver's insult is typically clumsy and overwritten
HGSS said:
I had to check if Bulbapedia had transcribed this line incorrectly but no, it is literally "I am not giving up beating you". Uh, I think there should be an "on" in that sentence.
But what he says is kind of heartfelt, and more rather emotive than what he says to the player in GSC - which again, makes him sound much younger and more earnest compared to his more downbeat and cynical portrayal there. But then when encountered on subsequent occasions, he says:
GSC said:
HGSS said:
You'd think I'd be hard-pressed to take issue with this, but I do. Specificity in writing matters: by changing one word, the meaning of the whole sentence changes with it. In GSC it's stay out of my way while in HGSS it's stay out of the way. The former is pointed and rude; the latter is bland and unmemorable. Again, it diminishes his character. His HGSS quote might as well be giving you life advice to be unobtrusive and avoid making waves.
The HGSS quote just... also doesn't really fit with the tone of his last statement to the player. In GSC he expressly tells you he won't fight you now; he's here to train and focus on himself. His parting comment in HGSS sounds like an open invitation for you to come back any time.
And now we go to the last battle with him: his Indigo Plateau rematch.
GSC said:
Like I said earlier, his overall demeanour hasn't much changed from how he was before. He's still blunt and forthright, but he's less given to personal attacks - he doesn't call you a weakling or talk about how much better he is than you. Nor does he repeat his earlier claim that he now has the strongest Pokemon - instead he very clearly says that he's trained them well enough to finally win against you, though admittedly still not in very friendly terms. It's not much, but it's there.
His losing text, again, is subtly different to previous times - he doesn't blame his Pokemon, or even you. Instead he acknowledges that what's lacking is himself - but he covers it up and tries to save face with a defensive command to the player that they should try not to lose before exiting.
Like I said, it's subtle - but it's a noticeable change from how he was before. You get the sense that over time he and the player might even one day be friends. But we don't see that happen because that's a long time coming, and he's got a while to go before then. What counts is that he's making the effort.
HGSS said:
So the opening quote here is more or less the same - only the post-battle text is changed. And, um...
...remember when I said a total personality overhaul wouldn't have worked?
Yeah, this is it. He apologises for getting in the way... and then reminds the player to heal up. What? I'm sorry, does that sound like anything Silver would say? This is too far. This is too drastic a change.
I guess that final quote really encapsulates everything I take issue with regarding how Silver is portrayed in the remakes. All the edge and toughness just gets sanded right off, and his moody, succinct dialogue gets stretched out to a point that's neither naturalistic or believable. And by the end of the game, he's been contorted to the point that he's pretty much a different character altogether. It's a frustrating change because he isn't written well enough in the remakes to make the character arc feel particularly engaging or earned.
Yeah. To reiterate, I really dislike what was done with Silver in HGSS. GSC does a pretty great job with most of its characters, and many suffer in the remakes - but none more so than this guy.
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Clair's costume gets made fun of a couple times in HGSS.
Erika talking to Jasmine in the Celdaon Department Store
As for the double battle, I think it's more so Silver wanting to learn from the player through working together rather than just battle each other and basically bragging he only loses to the player character because they're stronger than Lance.and maybe from being a tsundere.
Erika talking to Jasmine in the Celdaon Department Store
As for the double battle, I think it's more so Silver wanting to learn from the player through working together rather than just battle each other and basically bragging he only loses to the player character because they're stronger than Lance.
Yeah I know - I never really got why this was a thing, many of the other gym leaders wear outfits no more outlandish than hers.
Not to mention that there's a perfectly valid reason for Silver to reject Clair - she's not as strong as Lance. Making up some nonsense about him suddenly being dreadfully concerned with aesthetics just feels off.
I don't really get the impression he particularly wants to learn from the player; he doesn't ever ask them anything related to training or raising Pokemon, and even when he's considering what Lance said to him after the Goldenrod Tunnel it comes off more like he's talking to himself, not asking the player's opinion.
Him enlisting the player as his partner feels kind of more circumstantial than anything else - I suppose he could take both Clair and Lance on together (but we very rarely see other NPCs fight two opponents at once, unless they're being ganged up on by an evil team).
Plus his reaction to beating Lance is iffy. He says "it wasn't supposed to go this way" which in the absence of any other explanation I can only assume is him saying that he wanted to beat Lance on his own. But nothing more about it is said. Again, without context you could read that piece of dialogue and surmise that he'd just been defeated by the player, instead of finally defeating the guy he's been trying to find and rematch throughout the game. It's a really limp ending for this single-minded obsession that HGSS gives him.
Interesting localization analysis
I do agree with all these points, but sadly Nob needed to move on to better jobs. Localization is incredibly iffy both in fan rep, fan misinfo, and notorious difficulty in comparing to source. If I recall, Nob had little to no context for each scene in OG, just getting an XML. It's still done that way some companies, so awkward things can occur if one's not careful. Same for being aware of localized age rating
With that said, he did a good job for Pokemon. Only game I felt was off for dialogue was Colo
This is genuinely some of the best character analyses I've ever read, and I say that as someone who has been trying to write dialogue for almost four years as a writer. You sound like you've been writing / analyzing it for a decade. I feel like I could read that post twice and maybe not fully absorb all the analysis because it was so layered.
Also wow HGSS loves being redundant
man, i never really picked up on hgss having worse dialogue than gsc but seeing them directly compared feels really damning. is this a consistent thing throughout the whole game? it really feels like an awkward fan translation when compared to the original. also, that quote from after the indigo plateau fight is just hilarious. it makes him sound like he's your butler.
Yes, there's a lot of other instances. Might do a roundup of other particularly egregious examples in a few days.
Thank you!
You're not a million miles off...
This is an issue I notice in modern localizing of not really thinking how people talk (bar swearing, but that's cheap). A lot of amateur or worse, google translations, also lose site of char individuality, outside incredibly basic ticks that really don't work if literally translated to English
Nob himself admitted that Pokemon dialogue is very basic in source, so his expression is more seen for trainers and jerk rivals
The localizers seemed to have changed again for Gen 5, so HGSS's awkwardness mostly is gone
Gyarados being a part flying type really annoys me. If water/dragon had been too overpowered in gen 1, they should have made it a mono water type then. Now that it's a flying type type, why it can't even learn some useful flying type moves such as aerial ace and brave bird?
In a weird way, being a physical Flying type without common access to Flying moves makes Gyarados feel more powerful nowadays that Dragon isn't as unique. It's in the same category as Dragonite, Salamance, and Landorus, but not Druddigon or Flapple.
I've joked to myself that Gyarados is the best average recipient of generational gimmicks as a whole. Has a Mega, likes Flying attacks from a Z-move or Tera, really likes Max Airstream.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koinobori This is what Gyarados is based on.
Still, the lack of physical flying moves that aren't "look at how bird I am" is quite annoying. Specially when a bat gets to learn Brave Bird, while stem-birds Aerodactyl and Archeops don't.
Still, the lack of physical flying moves that aren't "look at how bird I am" is quite annoying. Specially when a bat gets to learn Brave Bird, while stem-birds Aerodactyl and Archeops don't.
Electrode is a weakling. I get that its fast so they needed to "balance" its power. However, 80 SpA is just too low. Calyrax-Shadow for example, literally has a higher Attack Stat (base 85 Attack) compared to Electrode's Special Attack.
Speaking of Calyrax-Shadow, it is the most blatantly overpowered Pokemon to ever exist. I thought it was suppose to be balanced by being frail or something, but its defenses aren't even bad. 100 / 80 / 100 isn't amazing by Ubers standard, but is really good compared to most regular Pokemon. Astral Barrage is also broken as shit. 120 BP / 100 Acc with no drawback on a type with no real resistances is insane. Other signature moves like Origin Pulse are nowhere near as cracked.
Speaking of Calyrax-Shadow, it is the most blatantly overpowered Pokemon to ever exist. I thought it was suppose to be balanced by being frail or something, but its defenses aren't even bad. 100 / 80 / 100 isn't amazing by Ubers standard, but is really good compared to most regular Pokemon. Astral Barrage is also broken as shit. 120 BP / 100 Acc with no drawback on a type with no real resistances is insane. Other signature moves like Origin Pulse are nowhere near as cracked.
As amazing as some of the Pokémon V art may be, one thing that rubs me the wrong way is that they are Basic Pokémon. It’s like you don’t have to try to evolve and build up your Pokémon to Stage 2 like in the old days, and it rings a little hollow how you can just plop beat sticks down. Kinda defeats the point of the core evolution mechanic, y’know?
Welcome to one of several long standing arguments with the TCG. To the poitn where "the old days" can also refer to the EX era (technically Gen 5, but more Gen 6) and even the SP Era but also some other various types of cards throughout the history.
V Pokemon can at least evolve into other "types", even if it's not "proper" evolution ie there's Vs that go into VMAX or VStar.
Though the bigger design snafoo is more "big basics" in general. ex & GX Pokemon at least have the evolution aspect but they also still print "big" ex/GX Pokemon. Stage 2s are incredibly annoying to dedicate deck space too (& you often ignore the middle stage for rare candies instead) and get out so you have to either be really really good or have a really really good support ability to make it worth while. Or be Gardevoir ex who is both and also has reason to play the full line because Kirlia has a busted ability.
Which I guess credit where it's due, that seems to be the design space they want to push (central beat stick big basic + support normies) but it does always feel a little off when even a normal stage 2 Pokemon can struggle to make a dent in a given V or ex.