Nooo don't ban the funny meme your so sexy aha
I mean, vert won with it in tour; and I'm #19 on ladder with it rn. I'd say its not THAT bad either. Don't sleep on my work.
(jk it is probably bad)
I still fail to see how it is uncompetitive, you trade your itemslot for a very bad form of speed control, which isn't that game breaking like evasion. Evasion is something that deals with every gamestyle, not only offensive mons get screwed if they miss their attacks but also do defensive mons by missing some moves (like clear smog, pex missing toxic if it was forced to tera, an so on or just dozo missing the attacks to get rid of the attackers), that is something that doesn't happen against walls when talking about speed it is mostly irrelevant and in some cases quick claw can be bad (like going first in a turn were you predicted a Zapdos going for roost). Quick claw in that sense isn't different from other rng in the game and the trade isn't worth. Basically is like if instead of WoW somebody would run Flamethrower on Drige only to spread burns, while it can happen, it is way more suboptimal than running what is better. We may not like it, but rng is a part of competitive Pokémon, unless we implement a not crits mod, ban everything that has a secundary effect from mud slap to scald and ban all the not 100% moves then we could call rng uncompetitive (the funniest thing is that even doing that speed ties would still exist). Of course we can't just accept everything, but there needs to be a clear distinction between what is unhealthy and what isn't, evasion and OHKO moves need not explanation of why they broke the game, but honestly quick claw is far from being unhealthy, the team wins because it is good and Delibird Heart uses it very well to no rely on the procs to win, but you put any other 5 shitmons like Rampardos or Luxray the team isn't going to work like that team does in high ladder even with a lot of procs and screens in the favor.'Losing their mind' is a bit excessive, wake up call is more like it. This is something that hadn't been used in this generation when you get to see the full force of it you start to have an idea of how broken the concept is of having priority randomly on vital turns. It's a bunch of bulky mons with Quick Claw so you fix a majority of their deficits and then you put screens on top of that conceptually it becomes a bit difficult to beat (its luck of the draw). People won't stop talking about it because they realize that it is uncompetitive and it doesn't have to be in the meta.
because yall ignored it the first time, I literally made a post hours ago that ia a counterpoint to like almost everything in hereI still fail to see how it is uncompetitive, you trade your itemslot for a very bad form of speed control, which isn't that game breaking like evasion. Evasion is something that deals with every gamestyle, not only offensive mons get screwed if they miss their attacks but also do defensive mons by missing some moves (like clear smog, pex missing toxic if it was forced to tera, an so on or just dozo missing the attacks to get rid of the attackers), that is something that doesn't happen against walls when talking about speed it is mostly irrelevant and in some cases quick claw can be bad (like going first in a turn were you predicted a Zapdos going for roost). Quick claw in that sense isn't different from other rng in the game and the trade isn't worth. Basically is like if instead of WoW somebody would run Flamethrower on Drige only to spread burns, while it can happen, it is way more suboptimal than running what is better. We may not like it, but rng is a part of competitive Pokémon, unless we implement a not crits mod, ban everything that has a secundary effect from mud slap to scald and ban all the not 100% moves then we could call rng uncompetitive (the funniest thing is that even doing that speed ties would still exist). Of course we can't just accept everything, but there needs to be a clear distinction between what is unhealthy and what isn't, evasion and OHKO moves need not explanation of why they broke the game, but honestly quick claw is far from being unhealthy, the team wins because it is good and Delibird Heart uses it very well to no rely on the procs to win, but you put any other 5 shitmons like Rampardos or Luxray the team isn't going to work like that team does in high ladder even with a lot of procs and screens in the favor.
Evasion potentialy can mess with all the counterplay you can use against a mon, while moving first not always change the income of a turn. Quick and easy example, you have a full health scarf Rotom-W infront of an unboosted Gyadoros with the standard tera flying tera blast set and quick claw, doesn't matter that quick claw triggers in both turns, Rotom-W wins against that Gyarados even if removes is water type because thunderbolt still 2HKO Gyarados and that set can't beat Rotom-W with two moves. However, in that same scenario but with Gyarados using Bright Powder then the thing changes because Gyarados potentially can get enough free turns to boost itself and beat Rotom-W without taking a hit.How is Quick Claw not in the same category as Evasion type RNG? You also have to use up slots on your build to go for it. Hell, with stuff like Sand Veil, you often give up an entirely consistent ability for an inconsistent one.
I still fail to see how it is uncompetitive, you trade your itemslot for a very bad form of speed control, which isn't that game breaking like evasion. Evasion is something that deals with every gamestyle, not only offensive mons get screwed if they miss their attacks but also do defensive mons by missing some moves (like clear smog, pex missing toxic if it was forced to tera, an so on or just dozo missing the attacks to get rid of the attackers), that is something that doesn't happen against walls when talking about speed it is mostly irrelevant and in some cases quick claw can be bad (like going first in a turn were you predicted a Zapdos going for roost). Quick claw in that sense isn't different from other rng in the game and the trade isn't worth. Basically is like if instead of WoW somebody would run Flamethrower on Drige only to spread burns, while it can happen, it is way more suboptimal than running what is better. We may not like it, but rng is a part of competitive Pokémon, unless we implement a not crits mod, ban everything that has a secundary effect from mud slap to scald and ban all the not 100% moves then we could call rng uncompetitive (the funniest thing is that even doing that speed ties would still exist). Of course we can't just accept everything, but there needs to be a clear distinction between what is unhealthy and what isn't, evasion and OHKO moves need not explanation of why they broke the game, but honestly quick claw is far from being unhealthy, the team wins because it is good and Delibird Heart uses it very well to no rely on the procs to win, but you put any other 5 shitmons like Rampardos or Luxray the team isn't going to work like that team does in high ladder even with a lot of procs and screens in the favor.
rng being a core part of pokémon does not mean that we shouldn’t seek to, where reasonable & feasible, reduce the impact rng has on the outcome of games. the two just do not track.
this is nominally a competitive site, so why do people argue against limiting clearly uncompetitive things?
What about sludge bomb, scald, etc ? According to your classification, wouldn't they fall under high cost & there is no counterplay ? (sludge does because of poison/steel types, but scald doesnt really. Besides, there's always iron head and hurricane, and unless you wanna run inner focus or own tempo, theres also no absolute 100% counterplay.)
"Very bad form of speed control", yes but that's not where the un-competitiveness comes from its you can have that 20% priority hit multiple times in row and you do not need it hitting at all to win games. Can't really compare it to evasion because there are moves out there with 100% accuracy (a lot actually). If you really wanted to you can have 6 mons on the team to have all 100% accurate moves. RNG is part of Pokémon and I have nothing against it but the point of Competitive Pokémon is to make it Competitive you cannot say a 20% draw in the priority bracket randomized induces any skill. If you can prevent it to keep competition at a high level why wouldn't you do it?
I played Generation 4 OU, Garchomp was banned because of Sand Veil, it is a powerful mon in general and with 20% chance to miss on 100% accurate moves changed the direction of the game drastically. You add Bright Powder to the equation and it starts getting ridiculous. Garchomp was banned because outside of Sand Veil it was a top 5 OU Pokémon. Obviously we're not saying use a bunch of PU mons and put Quick Claw and see if it's broken you obviously need to attach the uncompetitive item with solid OU mons that lack in the speed department. My point is if there is an item that induces luck and we see it plainly getting abused why wouldn't there be any sort of action? it's been done by Smogon historically.
Replying to both because I still not convinced on my point, evasion is way better than moving first and that changes how the rng affects the game, outside stuff like haze or those moves that doesn't miss (which are too weak or have a limitated distribution like Kowtow Cleave) there are not much options to deal with evation, especially when you combine it with stuff like sub to improve your odds, while with quick claw there are more options and not limited to just priority moves, position yourself in a scenario where the order doesn't matter, just like Delibirb Heart while playing positions himself to no rely on quick claw procs, the person playing against the quick claw team can postition themself to no lose to random procs, just like a player would avoid to touch Zapdos/Moltres with contact moves, something that your rival makes easier by running quick claw instead of other items like flame orb on Ursaluna (so it gets permawalled by Dozo).Oh my god I tried to stay out of it but the RNG discourse keeps on rolling so it is time for me to make the pain go away.
I will split up RNG shit into 3 broad categories:
High cost & There is counterplay: Discharge, Lava Plume, Scald etc. Taking up a moveslot and using a turn to fish for paralysis/burn/etc is a pretty high cost. Sometimes counterplay can be limited, in the case of scald, but there's lots of special attackers who can take a scald and dont terribly mind the burn like latios, tapu lele, torn-t, etc and burn damage is nerfed to 6.25% so its not as bad as it used to be. Fair and balanced imo! I will not shed tears if scald is banned though.
High cost & There is NO counterplay: Quick Claw, Double team. You need to take up an item slot in QC's case and a moveslot+a turn in double team's case, but there is no counterplay to this. You just hope Quick claw doesn't proc or hope that your attack connects. No reason to keep this stuff, even if they're not that powerful they are uncompetitive. Ban please!
Low cost & There is counterplay: Static, Flame body. Having these as your abilities and not needing to use a turn to fish for status is a low cost. However, you can just not use contact moves, use pads, etc so there is some counterplay. Will not shed tears if these abilities are banned.
Do not lump all of these things into the same category or so help me I will type up an even longer post.
Ok sorry I honestly think a ton of the points in your post were fair and it was a well reasoned post but what on earth does this mean? How is volcarona a placebo?So again I repeat, what exactly changed without volc? Nothing positive. Volcarona's pressure on teambuilder was a placebo effect from the start, instead creating an actual negative effect on removal.
Not them, but I think they mean that Volcarona's teambuilder pressure was illusory, imagined from whatever reasons with little actual terror in the builder, and that its removal meant that several mons that were actually pressured by it, like Valiant and Gambit, now have nigh on nothing to fear.Ok sorry I honestly think a ton of the points in your post were fair and it was a well reasoned post but what on earth does this mean? How is volcarona a placebo?
Quick and easy example, you have a full health scarf Rotom-W infront of an unboosted Gyadoros with the standard tera flying tera blast set and quick claw, doesn't matter that quick claw triggers in both turns, Rotom-W wins against that Gyarados even if removes is water type because thunderbolt still 2HKO Gyarados and that set can't beat Rotom-W with two moves. However, in that same scenario but with Gyarados using Bright Powder then the thing changes because Gyarados potentially can get enough free turns to boost itself and beat Rotom-W without taking a hit.
What about sludge bomb, scald, etc ? According to your classification, wouldn't they fall under high cost & there is no counterplay ? (sludge does because of poison/steel types, but scald doesnt really. Besides, there's always iron head and hurricane, and unless you wanna run inner focus or own tempo, theres also no absolute 100% counterplay.)
while with quick claw there are more options and not limited to just priority moves, position yourself in a scenario where the order doesn't matter, just like Delibirb Heart while playing positions himself to no rely on quick claw procs, the person playing against the quick claw team can postition themself to no lose to random procs, just like a player would avoid to touch Zapdos/Moltres with contact moves, something that your rival makes easier by running quick claw instead of other items like flame orb on Ursaluna (so it gets permawalled by Dozo).
i think a decent definition, & the one that i go by, is:probably because multiple people have multiple definitions of what they consider “uncompetitive”. I think Flame Body is really really dumb and luck based, but I don’t think it is “uncompetitive”. Luck is a huge part of Pokemon games, yes, but everyone has a different idea of where they want to draw the line.
Don't let the council see this man.Ban Quick Claw
Ban Static
Ban Flame Body
Ban Dire Claw
Ban the odds of Ice Beam and ice moves freezing
Ban the odds of Thunderbolt and electric moves paralyzing
Ban the odds of Fire moves burning
Ban Poison Touch
Ban Poison moves odds of poisoning
Ban Rock slide odds of flinching
Ban Iron head odds of flinching
Ban any extra odds of critical hit in said moves
Ban Earth Power and Shadow Ball odds of lowering SpDef
Ban Moonblast odds
Ban Liquidation
Ban
i see everything.Don't let the council see this man.
Oh god, he has seen my search historyi see everything.