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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Yeah, both are fair. If Tera gets hard banned, I'm going to be upsetti spaghetti (in a sad way.) I've been enjoying Tera, outside of Pokemon that really abused it. It's fun to catch people off guard.
Not the results I was expecting, but not surprised either.
Volc retest should still happen, I do believe primarily a lot of volc's votes were due to a mix of 'we have X broken to deal with now, that's priority #1 to me' and "I'm on my hookah rn and the flavor is "tera was banned" and it taste so good, volc flavor is next trip". Which personally I'm all for the later cause whether volc is or isn't unbanned it won't mean jack shit if the tera test is on the horizon anyways cause that's basically an unban of volc if it does get banned or restricted automatically anyways. It'd be easier to test gambit/volc with an environment knowing what our final thoughts with tera are rather than 'uh... soon something might happen to it?'
Definitely feels odd seeing the survey results unironically believe the minecraft salt bastard is more ban worthy than ANY of the survey results that volcarona was apart of and volc still eventually got the QB while garg didn't even get tested. I personally don't care much for garg so it aint an emergency to me, but statistically speaking how the hell are we supposed to read survey results in this context? By this logic garg would be QB'd and volc who only got write-ins and didn't have much request for ban in its last 1-5 survey shouldn't have been banned at all. Kingambit similarly seems up next on the council's mind but a lot of fixing kingambit is via the tera/volc test so it sounds like a poor order of priorities here.
Idk, just looks fishy to me, not the votes but reading the votes themselves and translating that to 'what's the next priority'. I'm shocked the council doesn't automatically throw kingambit and garg on a radar and 7-2 vote ban them tomorrow, they've done it to something not on the survey and previous survey to that, with a lower interest.
Volc retest should still happen, I do believe primarily a lot of volc's votes were due to a mix of 'we have X broken to deal with now, that's priority #1 to me' and "I'm on my hookah rn and the flavor is "tera was banned" and it taste so good, volc flavor is next trip". Which personally I'm all for the later cause whether volc is or isn't unbanned it won't mean jack shit if the tera test is on the horizon anyways cause that's basically an unban of volc if it does get banned or restricted automatically anyways. It'd be easier to test gambit/volc with an environment knowing what our final thoughts with tera are rather than 'uh... soon something might happen to it?'
Definitely feels odd seeing the survey results unironically believe the minecraft salt bastard is more ban worthy than ANY of the survey results that volcarona was apart of and volc still eventually got the QB while garg didn't even get tested. I personally don't care much for garg so it aint an emergency to me, but statistically speaking how the hell are we supposed to read survey results in this context? By this logic garg would be QB'd and volc who only got write-ins and didn't have much request for ban in its last 1-5 survey shouldn't have been banned at all. Kingambit similarly seems up next on the council's mind but a lot of fixing kingambit is via the tera/volc test so it sounds like a poor order of priorities here.
Idk, just looks fishy to me, not the votes but reading the votes themselves and translating that to 'what's the next priority'. I'm shocked the council doesn't automatically throw kingambit and garg on a radar and 7-2 vote ban them tomorrow, they've done it to something not on the survey and previous survey to that, with a lower interest.
I'm curious why you think Bright Powder was banned. Is a 10% increase to Evasion more consistent than Quick Claw?
Interesting survey results
Comp scores at a 5, "room for improvement" seems like an understatement king.
Almost 1000 players want some action on tera.
Looks like we aren't a vocal minority after all.
However, Tera isn't going anywhere. It's too late. It's been too long.
And we all know "restrictions" aren't going to do anything to address the core downsides of allowing this gimmick into our tier.
Tera will always be in gen 9, and comp scores will always be low, and fun scores will always be mid.
i was actually very pleasantly surprised by the size of the majority tiering action had! I thought it would be closer to 50/50 but over 60% in favor of TA is a crazy supermajority for "banning a generational gimmick" (a term that means nothing of course.) With a discussion thread imminent and many council members and over 60% of players critical of Tera I wouldn't be so pessimistic
It is more consistent at not doing anything
To clarify, I am of the opinion of not banning BrightPowder since I don't think running a Brightpowder as a standalone item is meaningful. The Brightpowder ban is more of an idealistic one to keep the entire Evasion ban ruleset "consistent". You can go back to a thread like this one and you can see that a similar sentiment is shared albeit with a more apathetic stance on banning the item. I also don't see the point in your question as it's clearly a leading one with the intent to discredit my post. If you have a differing viewpoint, then write it out.
Kingambit is infamous for not really needing any specific item, so I genuinely think that Eviolite Bisharp could serve largely the same defensive role. It's nowhere near as powerful a cleaner, but a +2 Sucker Punch is still strong, it's just not "kill things from full health" strong like a last-mon Kingambit is.
"Nowhere near as powerful" is an understatement. Bisharp's already suffering a 20% damage cut on its main STAB because it has to use Night Slash over Kowtow Cleave. Add on the fact that it doesn't have Supreme Overlord and its attack is lower, and its left massively wanting for power compared to Gambit. Under certain circumstances, Bisharp needs to set up an SD to do what Gambit does by default.
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 255-301 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 246-289 (58.5 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Eviolite Bisharp may have Gambit's bulk, but losing HDB / Leftovers recovery is critical in a number of match-ups. Part of what makes Gambit a good check to most Pokemon is its ability to rack up Leftovers recovery because of Sucker Punch mind-games. Leftovers recovery imo is extremely notable on gambit, moreso than other Pokemon, and lets it escape critical KO thresholds. Bisharp not only forces less of these mindgames because of its weaker Sucker Punch, but it is a greater net loss to it because it's not passively healing in the process. Add on hazards chip being permanant, and I think Bisharp will be a much worse Dragapult check and Tera user compared to Gambit.
Yeah, I'm not writing out my umpteenth multi-paragraph post on what the term 'competitive' (and by extention 'uncompetitive') means compared to simply 'broken' or 'overpowered' and why they aren't the same on my phone. I've had this discussion before. A lot. At some point I guess I had better accept there's a reason 'competitive' Pokemon players play this game and not an actually competitive game.
If I remember and can be fucked to I'll 'write it out' tomorrow when I'm home, or just copy and paste shit from one of the many other posts I've made on this subject.
While it is a bad Item, what would the meta be missing if its banned? Its just cheese that can rob games with enough bad luck, warranting it's ban. Besides Monopowder would be frustrating to face if that became a thing.
I pretty much agree that Sneasler is pretty dumb. 130/120 offensive stats is just... Yikes. 2HKOs Corviknight with CB CC. Forces Steels and/or Covert Cloak to avoid getting screwed by Dire Claw. It's... Not a fun time seeing it.
Yeah, he can 2HKO Corv with a choice band, but look what Corv can do back:
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasler: 348-410 (115.6 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
He can't switch into Corv, and that's a recurring problem with Sneasler: for all that very little wants to switch into his attacks, he doesn't want to switch into much either. 80/60/80 bulk is really bad and a major balancing factor.
You right, but if they smell
sneasler learns u-turn so it can just leave
Talkin' 'bout the CB set, and how it 2HKOs Corvi, but yeah. Even though it will most likely take helmet chip either way.
I do hope we get a Tera suspect before anything else. It really is the problem in the format, and we need to decide once and for all if we keep it or keep banning. Keep banning, what does that mean? What I mean is that we are currently living in a broken checks broken meta, and one ban opens the floodgate for more.
W apology man. I too am a guy who has a shifty personality and it can really hurt at times
I don't like lying, though this is the internet so make what you will of that
Not only this, but a good chunk of what was on the survey (Kingambit and Volcarona in particular) are not going to be as worthy of action with unrestricted Tera off the table. Let's settle whether or not the biggest abusers of Tera have that to work with. I'd rather we not, for example, ban Kingambit, then ban Tera, and then have to go back and ask "wait is it cool to unban it now or do we need a second test".
As a serious Sneasler hater, I have to say there's a lot of other things to prioritize before it to be honest. Sneasler is a problem but priority moves are a nice touch to try to beat it as well as just latching Gholdengo to every team. I think Kingambit needs to be looked at, like I said previously, I would probably lean on voting no ban personally because Kingambit is a metagame staple in terms of just one of the thing switching in on Pult / Dengo outside of Focus Blast / Flamethrower. I think removal of it would make the tier worse, but the fact is that it has been problematic the last couple of weeks and I understand if the people want it to be suspect tested, it reverse sweeps quite easily.
To be honest, the SV OU Discussion doesn't really have the most clear concise posts and is usually not heavily filtered for quality posts. A Tera Tiering Discussion thread can look like this where there many excellent reasons for anti-tera and pro tera (where readers can draw points / help make a decision). We need to bring back this type of thread and also just present points on why a re-suspect will be valid decision even after having the first one back in December.
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