Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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right so, in the pits of recent depression i thought one thing that might give me the slightest hit of dopamine might be playing some mons. nothing too heavy, build some mindless offense & a gking bo and gl, hf!. catastrophic mistake, i tell you.

this meta is a fuckin mess. i didn't think tier could get worse with the advent of home, yet here we are. i am not joking when i say mage+cind g8 was better than this dogshit. gonna outline the issues i have with it & what is to be done. yes i am ranting yes you are reading enjoy!!!

1. there are Too Many Threats with a fundamental imbalance between offensive tools & defensive means of handling them. a lot of mons are very unfun to account for & play around - in no particular order: valiant, bax, pult, goldie, nite, GAMBIT, ungodly enam-i, garg, zapdos, zero-skill sam, & some tusk sets like max atk booster 4a. everything else in the meta is secondary to these pokemon, in my view - either in supporting them, or insufficiently providing countermeasures.

it's practically impossible to build consistent teams that aren't abusing the problematic traits these silly fucks hold. we have no real resists to the relevant fairy mons - no unbanning volc is not the answer, that thing is also broken. we have one proper ghost resist that is unquestionably broken. you have like one option for handling zapdos in gking, which loses in the long term, - best part is that gking gets whittle like hell from hazards+volt, and zapdos ruins our only (lol) means of true removal. bax is just like, what the fuck do you even say? lol, lmao.

2. tera. this shit needs to go. no half measures - not repeating myself in depth on this but tldr: limitations do not do what proponents purport they do, & it's backwards tiering. all of the pokemon i listed with the maybe the exceptions of zapdos, sam, & offensive tusk are sent to stratospheric levels of fuckedupness with tera. all of them have a deep well of means to circumvent would-be countermeasures, which is nigh impossible to prepare for. i said it near the very start of the generation & have been repeating it ever since: until tera is gone, there will be no path for the meta to stabilise into something resembling a Cool Place. i stay correct, naysayers stand corrected.

3. hazards. who would win, a billion spikers or tusk & cind? once again, a huge mismatch in terms of setting vs removal, & this alongside with Very Skillful Goldie is another source of imbalance in the meta. game freak really played the greatest switcheroo since operation barbarossa in granting us the perfect means of removal in terms of distribution & reliability, only to take it away for no good reason. treacherous fucks. bonus meme: sam is one of the most braindead things i've ever had the displeasure of both facing & using - no thoughts head empty click ceaseless etc.

ban spikes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
​
the correct order of operations in my view is as follows:

- quickban quick claw. there are no good arguments against keeping it (not going over this again, you're all wrong if you think otherwise). no downsides to banning it.
- full suspect on tera. no other action until that point because it is far too intertwined with all of the problematic elements we currently see.
- don't even suspect gambit lol - just quickban, shit is still broken without tera.
- suspect garg.
- suspect the ghosts, starting with goldie if you want to make headway in the hazards department (see: giving teams a good ground immune+removal+steel type in one slot, freeing up building a fuckload), or pult if spdef stacking can't make it somewhat bearable as with g8.
- suspect both of the fairies, probably enam first should tera go.
- suspect spikes & maybe sam/ceaseless alongside it.
- take it from there &, depending on the timeline, see what reasonable measures dlc gives us.

what not to do:

- do NOT do nothing other than quickbanning two mons & suspecting one semi-fucked mon, when so much clearly needs to be done. your opinion on my takes aside, i think people in general are deeply unhappy with the state of the meta & this calls for swift & drastic action.
- do NOT give us another survey without taking action on tera & gambit.
- do NOT allow this power level to continue the standard for the generation, unless you want a total joke gen that can only be somewhat salvaged by post-gen shenanigans
- do NOT allow the awful lines of argument such as "we can't ban gambit because of pult!" to slide. yes. yes we can. we can then ban pult, if necessary. this is how it works. like i'm seriously disappointed that the zeitgeist has taken a turn away from a consistent view of tiering & tiering pokemon based on their merits alone, rather than trying to cobble together some state of broken-checking-broken. such an approach has been invalid since the jump of smogon laying down what is & is not good tiering.

sorry if the tone of this post gets to you, i'm just at the end of my tether with both the state of the meta & the discussion i see around it. i probably won't be responding to questions or objections because frankly, cba. also, sorry it's really ugly - i'm in no mood to make it look somewhat pretty.

bl, dhf!
 
1LDK said:
Less stall? Well what are we waiting for boys, put the item clause
now
Click to expand...
No, not exactly since Iten Clause will cause the ban of many other broken breakers and hazard setters. The Hat-Bike stall team is also a thing soooo, this might, just might help stall after like 10 bans that come with it. But yeah Item Clause is really funny, who even thought that and a real metagame would be possible together.
 
1LDK said:
Less stall? Well what are we waiting for boys, put the item clause
now
Click to expand...

As a Stall enjoyer, I actually non ironically support this. Current Stalls are all extremely boring and passive with 6 Boots, I am pretty sure its possible to do something better even with Gholdengo and Spike stack existing.

https://pokepast.es/6213ccd6cf2e0b4d < Stalls like this Gen 7 one are what I want to see. Of course, different Meta and more limited removal options, but I am pretty sure its possible to do if you think outside the box.
Some of my favorite teams (of all styles, not just Stall) were built with Item Clause.

Realistically though, Smogon will never do this unfortunately. Diversity in team building is the only actual argument for it.
 
tigers jaw said:
right so, in the pits of recent depression i thought one thing that might give me the slightest hit of dopamine might be playing some mons. nothing too heavy, build some mindless offense & a gking bo and gl, hf!. catastrophic mistake, i tell you.

this meta is a fuckin mess. i didn't think tier could get worse with the advent of home, yet here we are. i am not joking when i say mage+cind g8 was better than this dogshit. gonna outline the issues i have with it & what is to be done. yes i am ranting yes you are reading enjoy!!!

1. there are Too Many Threats with a fundamental imbalance between offensive tools & defensive means of handling them. a lot of mons are very unfun to account for & play around - in no particular order: valiant, bax, pult, goldie, nite, GAMBIT, ungodly enam-i, garg, zapdos, zero-skill sam, & some tusk sets like max atk booster 4a. everything else in the meta is secondary to these pokemon, in my view - either in supporting them, or insufficiently providing countermeasures.

it's practically impossible to build consistent teams that aren't abusing the problematic traits these silly fucks hold. we have no real resists to the relevant fairy mons - no unbanning volc is not the answer, that thing is also broken. we have one proper ghost resist that is unquestionably broken. you have like one option for handling zapdos in gking, which loses in the long term, - best part is that gking gets whittle like hell from hazards+volt, and zapdos ruins our only (lol) means of true removal. bax is just like, what the fuck do you even say? lol, lmao.

2. tera. this shit needs to go. no half measures - not repeating myself in depth on this but tldr: limitations do not do what proponents purport they do, & it's backwards tiering. all of the pokemon i listed with the maybe the exceptions of zapdos, sam, & offensive tusk are sent to stratospheric levels of fuckedupness with tera. all of them have a deep well of means to circumvent would-be countermeasures, which is nigh impossible to prepare for. i said it near the very start of the generation & have been repeating it ever since: until tera is gone, there will be no path for the meta to stabilise into something resembling a Cool Place. i stay correct, naysayers stand corrected.

3. hazards. who would win, a billion spikers or tusk & cind? once again, a huge mismatch in terms of setting vs removal, & this alongside with Very Skillful Goldie is another source of imbalance in the meta. game freak really played the greatest switcheroo since operation barbarossa in granting us the perfect means of removal in terms of distribution & reliability, only to take it away for no good reason. treacherous fucks. bonus meme: sam is one of the most braindead things i've ever had the displeasure of both facing & using - no thoughts head empty click ceaseless etc.

ban spikes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
​
the correct order of operations in my view is as follows:

- quickban quick claw. there are no good arguments against keeping it (not going over this again, you're all wrong if you think otherwise). no downsides to banning it.
- full suspect on tera. no other action until that point because it is far too intertwined with all of the problematic elements we currently see.
- don't even suspect gambit lol - just quickban, shit is still broken without tera.
- suspect garg.
- suspect the ghosts, starting with goldie if you want to make headway in the hazards department (see: giving teams a good ground immune+removal+steel type in one slot, freeing up building a fuckload), or pult if spdef stacking can't make it somewhat bearable as with g8.
- suspect both of the fairies, probably enam first should tera go.
- suspect spikes & maybe sam/ceaseless alongside it.
- take it from there &, depending on the timeline, see what reasonable measures dlc gives us.

what not to do:

- do NOT do nothing other than quickbanning two mons & suspecting one semi-fucked mon, when so much clearly needs to be done. your opinion on my takes aside, i think people in general are deeply unhappy with the state of the meta & this calls for swift & drastic action.
- do NOT give us another survey without taking action on tera & gambit.
- do NOT allow this power level to continue the standard for the generation, unless you want a total joke gen that can only be somewhat salvaged by post-gen shenanigans
- do NOT allow the awful lines of argument such as "we can't ban gambit because of pult!" to slide. yes. yes we can. we can then ban pult, if necessary. this is how it works. like i'm seriously disappointed that the zeitgeist has taken a turn away from a consistent view of tiering & tiering pokemon based on their merits alone, rather than trying to cobble together some state of broken-checking-broken. such an approach has been invalid since the jump of smogon laying down what is & is not good tiering.

sorry if the tone of this post gets to you, i'm just at the end of my tether with both the state of the meta & the discussion i see around it. i probably won't be responding to questions or objections because frankly, cba. also, sorry it's really ugly - i'm in no mood to make it look somewhat pretty.

bl, dhf!
Click to expand...
so you want at least 8 more bans before fall (don't try to get all clever with "b-but i said suspect", we all know what you actually mean), when the dlc will cause pretty much everything banned post-home to drop anyway? by the time you finish your crusade to save the meta or whatever, it'll be too late. why not wait until post-dlc2 to demand bans so you can make sure they stick?
 
Floatstonemafia said:
My single biggest issue with tera restriction is that if we're going that far, we might as well ban it. That's as deep down the rabbit hole as the highly complex bans trying to axe baton pass strategies until people wised up and just banned baton pass. The point was to maintain relatively simple bans, and anything creating as large of a gap between cart and smogon as restricted to 1 is imo a big no-no. Especially since it runs into the fairly obvious problem of smogon tries to keep the simulator as playable on cart as posssible, and that's a restriction that's simply not really feasible on cart besides a gentleman's handshake that you will only tera X mon. It's not like mega stones were you could say 'you cannot have a legal gengar with gengarite on it' or dynamax were the choice was 'alright no one touch the dynamax button'. You kind of half ass it where you say 'alright, every mon can tera, but only one can actually do it. And we call it ahead of time.'

The second big issue is that it still has a number of problems. It still makes the format offensively favored (because if you get the one tera, putting it on a sweeper has drastically better returns than a defensive mon) because it still enables a sweeper to bypass their checks. It also does not solve the teambuilder problem. You still have to treat every mon in the format like it could become 4 other things until proven otherwise, and that extreme pressure on teambuilding is also contributing to how shitty this gen is. Like why would we go nuclear and still not fix the problem in it's entirety.
Click to expand...
Don't feel like dissecting your entire post right now (very tired and recovering from a fairly nasty bug), but Tera Preview is at least based on a rule that was officially enforced by Game Freak (like Sleep Clause was once upon a time) and isn't a complex ban of any kind. It's more akin to HP%, which is actually enforceable on cart by anyone who knows how to use a calculator and is akin to public knowledge rules in TCGs.
 
Karxrida said:
(very tired and recovering from a fairly nasty bug)
Click to expand...
yeah, so are we
01173340-7D12-4678-A13B-BF4465E6125E.png
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
so you want at least 8 more bans before fall (don't try to get all clever with "b-but i said suspect", we all know what you actually mean), when the dlc will cause pretty much everything banned post-home to drop anyway? by the time you finish your crusade to save the meta or whatever, it'll be too late. why not wait until post-dlc2 to demand bans so you can make sure they stick?
Click to expand...
i mean, your objection is irrelevant when it comes to whether or not anything i mentioned is deserving of a ban, as this is the meta we are currently playing.

i don’t fuckin know pal - i specifically addressed what you’re saying. it’d depend on how swift action is taken, the timeline between now & the dlc, & what is/is not available to us & whether or not that would be sufficient to unban whatever goes by then.

i do know that dealing with this meta for the foreseeable is a total joke, though.

also lol, outside of quick claw & gambit i genuinely do mean suspect. i would even take a gambit suspect! it would just be a foregone conclusion & a waste of time, in my view. “crusade to save the meta”, lmao. this is why i said “i probably won't be responding to questions or objections because frankly, cba”.

last time i want any interaction with you, thanks!
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
yeah, item clause does seem like the best way to solve the quick claw issue, and it has official precedent. the problem here isn't one quick claw, it's five quick claws
Click to expand...

I don't think item clause will fix the issue, yeah the more of something the more overwhelming it is, but Slowbro-Galar hitting multiple important attacks because of Quick Draw and Quick Claw has nothing to do with an item clause. The problem in general is luck items and it just straight up be suspected / banned.
 
Sheerluck Holmes said:
On the flipside, if Tera Preview reveals Fire Kingambit, then Earthquake becomes a 100% cert move rather than "Do I click Ice Spinner and hope he goes Flying" instead?
Click to expand...
A pretty cherry picked example considering there is little reason for tera fire Gambit considering Volc is gone, but I concur that tera preview will help, but after its implementation what reason will there be to not just use singleminded immunity tera?
 
Part of the problem with implementing Items Clause, ala VGC, is that while it forces more diversity between Pokemon sets, it also means that team building is a lot more restrictive. A lot of Pokemon require the use of Heavy-Duty Booties JUST to be reasonably playable, so suddenly you can't have a Boots Spinner/Defogger and a Zapdos. Or have Boots Zapdos and then your hazard remover gets crippled from the entry hazards.

Then you have some things like a large number of Pokemon wanting Life Orb... What will we use then? Single-type boosting items? Muscle Band/Wise Glasses? What if you don't want to commit to Band/Specs?

Some Pokemon can easily get away under Items Clause, but a large portion look at it and go "Welp, I guess I'm now stuck in PU/Untiered because I can't be justified over other picks due to needing a specific item that something else uses."
 
What's 6 quick claws like in other gens?

I'm still just fascinated by this sudden revelation generation 9 is the generation we're talking about fucking item clauses and RNG item bans.

Quick claw was introduced in generation 2 which came out on... November 21, 1999 JPN, 2000 US. Smogon started (according to bulbapedia idk how accurate that is) December 18, 2004... so you mean to tell me it took us 19 years to be here and call out these items that have been around since before smogon was even created??

I ask again, what the hell happened????

I really don't care if it gets banned or not but I'm trying to figure out... well.. what the fuck happened for this random feeling change of heart to something you probably would just flame the person and call a shitpost for using less than 7 months ago. Is it gen 9 specific or do we have a problem in the earlier gens too?
 
tigers jaw said:
1. there are Too Many Threats with a fundamental imbalance between offensive tools & defensive means of handling them. a lot of mons are very unfun to account for & play around - in no particular order: valiant, bax, pult, goldie, nite, GAMBIT, ungodly enam-i, garg, zapdos, zero-skill sam, & some tusk sets like max atk booster 4a. everything else in the meta is secondary to these pokemon, in my view - either in supporting them, or insufficiently providing countermeasures.
Click to expand...

“valiant” Valiant has a big 4MSS, wanting Knock, Encore, Destiny Bond, M-Blast, Spirit Break, CC, Tbolt, Sball, etc. Banning it would be a big mistake. It is important right now for keeping DD sweepers, Pult, and other shit at bay. Valiant in particular isn’t really broken or overbearing itself like you claim. G-King, Zapdos, Torn, Pex, Amoonguss, etc all are solid checks to Valiant. Physical sets are checked by Lando. Even some nicher mons like Clod, Skele, Molt, and Scizor can reliably check it. Valiant is a weird fusion of DPP Lucario and Post-ORAS Lucha, theoretically having no counters but being balanced by 4MSS and shit bulk.

“bax” Not gonna argue against this. Bax is stupid, lmao. You either run Dozo or you bust.

“pult” Pult has always been one of the top offensive dogs of the tier but I don’t think its overbearing. You have solid ghost resists with Gambit, Ting-Lu, A-Muk, and Garg. Pult is a healthy presence in the tier, providing speed control and Infiltrator for those stupid fucking screen hos even if ironically it is the best screen setter rn.

“ghold” I have yet to be convinced Ghold as broken. Its a spinblocker/defogblocker that is threatened by the two best forms of hazard removal in the tier (Cinder/Tusk). Pro-Ban Ghold arguments are always about the way it enables hazard stacking so I assume this is the same here. Cause there isn’t a universe where a slow ghost/steel type is broken in a meta where half the tier can tank a hit or two and threaten back. (Mag and Aegi were different. One had a billion sets and was bulkier, the other also had a billion sets and was almost impossible to handle with King Shield mindgames.)

“dnite” I think this meta compared to pre-Home is better equipped at dealing with Dnite. Tusk runs Ice Spinner more frequently, Balloon Gambit is more common, Zapdos can cripple it, Encore Valiant, Lando, etc. Dnite can obviously run different moves but its the same problem with Valiant where it has a bunch of important options but can’t fit them all at once.

“gambit” I would argue on keeping Gambit less because it is a ghost resist and moreso because it keeps offensive teams while providing a strong offensive/defensive presence itself. I would argue this chess piece is the biggest reason to ban Tera, without it, Gambit would have a fair 4x Fighting weakness and not be simultaneously the best Fairy, Fire, or Flying type in the game. Gambit frees up some holes in teambuilding (Ghost resist, speed control, wincon, breaker). Though if it was being suspected I wouldn’t be mad about it, this thing is still fucking stupid, but I would take action on Tera first before touching Gambit.

“enam-i” Lele 2.0. Plays a very similar role while also offering a sweeper role with CM/Agility. Specs/Scarf sets are kept in check by stuff like G-King + Ground Immune, and CM sets can be rkilled by Gambit, Pult, Bax, etc. Also Molt is a good counter to Enam regardless of its set, and again, Tera is the main culprit for why Enam was ever considered suspect worthy.

“garg” We have a good Regen pivot in Glowking and the meta is a bit more aggro than even the HO infested pre-Home meta. I would’ve probably voted Yes to banning Garg, but here, Garg seems like a more balanced chess piece.

“zapdos” At this point this is venting about getting haxed by Hurricane confusion.

“samu-h” DarkSamu is balanced by two things. Kinda slow with 85 base speed and most importantly Ceaseless Edge having 90 base accuracy, meaning if it misses, you lose a lot of momentum. I think we are just starting to explore H-Samu while also limiting the amount of spikes it gets off, if not at all. Fast U-Turn/Volt Switch + Helmet mon.

Spikes being as polarizing in this metagame is more of a symptom of limited hazard removal. If mons like Hydrei, Lando, Zapdos, Molt, etc were to keep Defog, Samu-H and Ghold wouldn’t even be part of the discussion. The counterplay for hazards rn is less about removing them and moreso about preventing them from being set up to begin with or running teams less vulnerable to hazards (HO, Boots Spam, Superman teams).

“tusks” Bro, out of all the things to call for a suspect test for, you want our best form of hazard removal gone. You know, after going on a tangent about hazards, you would think giving our best form of hazard removal the ban hammer would just make the problem worse. Anyways, moving on.

tigers jaw said:
we have no real resists to the relevant fairy mons
Click to expand...

IMG_4783.jpeg
tigers jaw said:
you have like one option for handling zapdos in gking.
Click to expand...
IMG_4784.png

Believe in the Thunder

Aside from that, I believe Clod is severely underrated in the meta. I might make a post about it in the near future, but it checks alot of the shit people call broken. (Valiant, Enam, Pult, Ghold, Zap, etc)

Clod also has the rare Toxic that cripples everything that isn’t a steel type. Unaware over Water Absorb cause you aren’t gonna be kept up at night over getting 6-0d by Volcanion.

My suggestion:
Suspect Tera first, then see if Gambit and others are still broken without it.
 
658Greninja said:
Aside from that, I believe Clod is severely underrated in the meta. I might make a post about it in the near future, but it checks alot of the shit people call broken. (Valiant, Enam, Pult, Ghold, Zap, etc)

Clod also has the rare Toxic that cripples everything that isn’t a steel type. Unaware over Water Absorb cause you aren’t gonna be kept up at night over getting 6-0d by Volcanion.
Click to expand...
Just saying, but Toxic also doesn't affect opposing Poisons. Clod does have a place in the meta, definitely, but it's sometimes hard to fit.
 
pika pal said:
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Click to expand...

calc doesn't mean a lot if u remove the context, maybe that damages come after u got trapped with tox from a magma storm; in the end, u are doing that damage because the opponents WANT to stay in and epower you, killing tox otherwise heatran is free to switch to a non-fire mon

i want to ALWAYS burn the pokemon: i prefer a pokemon with wow
i want a spammable move: i go with scald, but i don't get a lot of damage when i need it (rather than surf or hpump), and i might not get the burn when i need it

a 30% burn maybe can solve me the match or maybe is just chip damage
a 20% priority close combat on the face of the only rkiller of my opponent can make me win the game

since my english sucks i won't make other examples but for ME scald in any gen was viable was really strong but not broken, impossible to compare to quick claw

in THIS gen it would help a lot on scary strong physical attackers and maybe it would balance things (or maybe make even more this meta a joke, scald dozo might be annoying)

about vgc and ubers: never played them

Froctopus said:
by using examples scenarios.
Click to expand...

of what? of 2 metagames ago?

i played rby like bw and i would never bring examples of old gens in gen 9 because is TOTALLY different, tera made so much pokemons broken that without it can be perfectly OU

SnackWasTaken said:
Damn you really dissected that article.
Click to expand...

thank you
 
RoyalDispenser said:
What's 6 quick claws like in other gens?

I'm still just fascinated by this sudden revelation generation 9 is the generation we're talking about fucking item clauses and RNG item bans.

Quick claw was introduced in generation 2 which came out on... November 21, 1999 JPN, 2000 US. Smogon started (according to bulbapedia idk how accurate that is) December 18, 2004... so you mean to tell me it took us 19 years to be here and call out these items that have been around since before smogon was even created??

I ask again, what the hell happened????

I really don't care if it gets banned or not but I'm trying to figure out... well.. what the fuck happened for this random feeling change of heart to something you probably would just flame the person and call a shitpost for using less than 7 months ago. Is it gen 9 specific or do we have a problem in the earlier gens too?
Click to expand...

I'm of the opinion that it's a problem everywhere, but it's also probably not good anywhere else:

:ursaluna:
:enamorus-therian:
:iron hands:
:kingambit:

4/6 of the team is from gen 9, and all 4 of those mons would be UUBL, at worst, in pretty much any other generation. It's always kinda been a problem, but it's the specific density of high quality, slow offensive threats that's really made it more than just a curiosity.
 
Karxrida said:
Unless Volcarona was making you eject food from both ends and miss cool sites in Athens then I don't think it's comparable.
Click to expand...
Oh. Well. It's...a pretty comparable experience for me. Like, word for word, the shit that would spew from my mouth whilst mon'ing on the shitter...all due to this asshole.


On a different note, I'd like to gauge opinions on this, just a silly question. Does anyone feel this meta to be more or less kind to Grass types and Grass type moves? I feel that grassers were eating good early this gen, now they seemed to have fallen out of style.
 
RoyalDispenser said:
What's 6 quick claws like in other gens?

I'm still just fascinated by this sudden revelation generation 9 is the generation we're talking about fucking item clauses and RNG item bans.

Quick claw was introduced in generation 2 which came out on... November 21, 1999 JPN, 2000 US. Smogon started (according to bulbapedia idk how accurate that is) December 18, 2004... so you mean to tell me it took us 19 years to be here and call out these items that have been around since before smogon was even created??

I ask again, what the hell happened????

I really don't care if it gets banned or not but I'm trying to figure out... well.. what the fuck happened for this random feeling change of heart to something you probably would just flame the person and call a shitpost for using less than 7 months ago. Is it gen 9 specific or do we have a problem in the earlier gens too?
Click to expand...
It's pretty clear that this started with the rise of monoclaw teams but you're right to still question why it only took off now. It used to be more frowned upon to use cheese strategies up until like gen 6 which is why it took so long to get action on BP. That's part of it, but I also think that power creep explains it in that we got a lot of slow but incredibly powerful attackers like Ursaluna and Iron Hands this gen. It wouldn't be as useful in, say, gen 3, where the power level is a lot lower and mons are slower in general. Would still be uncompetitive but it'd only really work if you're facing an already weakened pokemon and they are faster than you and poised to OHKO or do a lot of damage. By contrast the aforementioned pokemon can coast off their ridiculously high attack without any item that boosts it, and there are enough of them to do that this generation. Glowbro also helps this but it's probably the most gimmicky/matchup fishy mon on that team.
 
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