Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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15terms said:
Well yeah it would solve the hazard problem with it's defog, however Giratina is an even better spinblocker than Gholdengo and it's a broken threat and it would centralize the metagame around itself, because it would pretty much invalidate Great Tusk as hazard removal. Bringing down Giratina to deal with hazards is like bringing down Zacian Crowned to deal with Magearna.
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Yeah, true. OU also doesn't need another BS screens sweeper. SubCM under screens sounds like hell to deal with, esp w/ Tera likely invalidating the limited counterplay to such a strategy like Tera Fairy for Band Tera Dragon Dragapult. Though I see this as more of a Chien-Pao case where the mon is so strong, that Tera likely won't be needed since Screens will do most of the heavy lifting. I'd imagine Giratina-A will likely run multiple variations of a Calm Mind set, with options like Restalk, Will-O-Wisp, Aura Sphere, and Tera Blast that will make pinning it down quite difficult. Pressure is also quite the nasty ability, letting it stall out potentional checks like Clodsire and Ting-Lu which likely won't be able to break its sub.

I may have been a Giratina-A supporter before, but that was during a time when Urshifu-RS and Volcarona were in the tier and I did not truly grasp the potency of Screens. Now, I have been enlightened by the greater community. If a Giratina form were to be unbanned, I believe that Giratina-O would be the wiser of the two to test, in no small part due to its lack of Leftovers recovery and lesser bulk, though its reselliance to entry hazards is a massive advantage compared to its Altered form. Completely shitting on Ursaluna, Great Tusks, Lando-T, and others could be a good or bad thing. Calm Mind sets still have a high probability of being broken under screens, but may be more managable due to lack of leftovers recovery, though on the flipside, higher attacking stats and the G-Orb boost may make it more overwhelming, since its bulk is still quite high and it may require less CMs to be setup before being able to sweep. And nontheless, Giratina-O would still bring the issue of making entry hazard removal more centralizing due to making options like Tusks less viable, though its arguable on how significant of an impact it would have as a whole, since it would also be a great entry hazard clearer - better than tusk - due to its Spikes immunity. Removal is centralized as is and Giratina-O would simply be moving it to a different form of centralization.

Ultimately, a Giratina test could happen, but higher priority issues exist and either Giratina form would prove to be a mixed bag in dealing with some of these issues (entry hazards), could worsen other issues (screens), and don't check enough broken mons with the banning of Volcarona and Urshifu-RS. Testing it earlier when Chien-Pao, Urshifu-RS, and Volcarona where in the tier would have been the best time to test it, but unfort that ship has long sailed.
 
Giratina most certainly does not need a test. Both forms would be broken in OU in any sense of the term.

Comparing it to certain threats in the metagame and saying that it's outclassed in certain aspects is like looking at a single Arceus-normal set and asserting it should be allowed because we have other prominent offensive threats/checks.

Giratina's solid stats across the board, great typing, and movepool offer it immense utility. Comparing it to mons like Zamazenta, Ting-Lu, or Dragapult is somewhat off-topic. The fact we're making all these comparisons just proves my point: Giratina doesn't just fit one simple role. Unbanning it would open pandora's box. People drawing comparisons between Giratina and specific monsters always seem to ignore crucial details and omit important details about its base stats, movepool, and typing. Levitate is also an insane ability, by the way. Ignoring spikes, plus a ground immunity, and spin-blocking? Usage rate would be absurd. Variety would be absurd. Everyone would be running it, and the entire meta would revolve around it.

Anyway, if we can do this for one monster, what's stopping us from doing the same to something like Arceus-Bug or Ice? Nothing. My point is that we need to properly consider WHY an uber is in ubers to begin with, instead of saying we need to "test it" to watch as it single-handedly burns down the tier, then chuckling and saying "Oops! My bad, guys. I did not think of that" after making surface-level arguments that sound intuitive but are really just out of scope.

We need to critically evaluate the threshold for "broken" and problematic centralization rather than trying to rationalize our way into giving banworthy characters the green card.
 
Im a big fan of Giratina, origin or altered, and I just don't think it would be healthy, unless somehow Garg didnt have to waste a tera to not get folded by a 120 base SpA Earth Power, and even then Garg and Ting-Lu being the stalwarts of OU is probably a darker future than the Giratina-less one.

252+ SpA Tera Fairy Giratina-Origin Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 170-204 (33 - 39.6%) -- 15.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Core Tera Dragon Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 272-322 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery / 252+ SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Giratina-Origin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, vs 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Giratina-Origin: 438-516 (86.9 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

As much as I love the Gira, this just cannot be allowed in OU. You could sacrifice 4 mons to it, and still have less of an ohko chance than getting the quick claw that turn.


Tenfold said:
We need to critically evaluate the threshold for "broken" and problematic centralization rather than trying to rationalize our way into giving banworthy characters the green card.
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This is something I've been thinking myself, but haven't been able to conclude solidly one way or another. I keep asking myself what distinguishes the broken from the elite of the tier, and if such a distinction is even possible nowadays. I don't mean nowadays as in this gen, but rather this month, since some things this gen were clear insane outliers, like Palafin and Bundle, but then some things are murky, like Volcarona and Zamazenta. There is no one definition to broken that can be cleanly applied to every mon, but it being in ubers already is a good start. Just because its utter shit there doesn't mean it wont snap our spines in two, like...
Palafin is the worst ranked actively tiered Ubers mon, and its still a B rank, although the rankings havent changed since mid-May. Yeah, don't bother asking about bringing down shit Ubers because there debatably aren't any.
 
I take 1 nap and wake up to Giratina talk in OU.

As much as I would like to see it and Finchinator did say "fuck around and find out" to letting some other broken bullshit in OU, its just not good for the tier's sanity. It's been broken more than it needs to be honestly. And besides, everyone knows its too much for the tier anyways. It would be like adding Zygarde-Complete into OU again - and everyone plus their mothers knows how bulky that thing is. Nothing was able to OHKO Zygarde Complete from full. Flying types wasn't immune to its STAB. And so much other shit about it was broke.

Then again, this is Giratina who is just mediocre in general, and also can't be 2HKO'd without a decently strong hit.
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 254-300 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord (3 allies down) Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 260-308 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 186-222 (36.9 - 44%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So how would things play out if it was in the tier? Well, stall would be incredibly overbearing to handle yes that much is true, and it may be an auto include in many a team. But it can be dealt with. You just need it to switch-in on you and get the chip you need. If you wanna go the extra mile, Taunt shuts it down hard. Choice sets are as mediocre coming from Dragapult as it is with Giratina as its actually weaker on the special side. But this is assuming it's reguar Giratna.

Giratina-Origin might be kinda strong, but it has the same flaws as Zamazenta-Crowned in that it can't hold another item. It's much more prevalent here as its bulk goes from monstrous to... still bonkers and it gets a neat attack boost too. Maybe one day the OU council will let loose some Ubers never put in OU some day. One at a time - just to see how busted they actually are. I am almost certain the Ubers didn't get a day in OU at all, so this would be a very fun experiment.

After all, I'm in it for the chaos >:)
And with all that being said, goodbye (for now)
 
DynamaxBestMeta said:
Palafin is the worst ranked actively tiered Ubers mon, and its still a B rank, although the rankings havent changed since mid-May. Yeah, don't bother asking about bringing down shit Ubers because there debatably aren't any.
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Small nitpick but it's D tier rn, probably due to some combination of the overall power level increasing and Sun gaining a second really good setter.
 
DynamaxBestMeta said:
Palafin is the worst ranked actively tiered Ubers mon, and its still a B rank, although the rankings havent changed since mid-May. Yeah, don't bother asking about bringing down shit Ubers because there debatably aren't any.
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I understand what point you're making, and I agree. But just because something performs poorly in Ubers doesn't necessarily mean it's a good fit for OU. That being said, I do agree that Uber bans should be open for discussion. I also encourage careful scrutiny, however, as such bans typically have good reasons behind them.


The2009Zapdos said:
So how would things play out if it was in the tier? Well, stall would be incredibly overbearing to handle yes that much is true, and it may be an auto include in many a team. But it can be dealt with. You just need it to switch-in on you and get the chip you need. If you wanna go the extra mile, Taunt shuts it down hard. Choice sets are as mediocre coming from Dragapult as it is with Giratina as its actually weaker on the special side. But this is assuming it's reguar Giratna.

Giratina-Origin might be kinda strong, but it has the same flaws as Zamazenta-Crowned in that it can't hold another item. It's much more prevalent here as its bulk goes from monstrous to... still bonkers and it gets a neat attack boost too. Maybe one day the OU council will let loose some Ubers never put in OU some day. One at a time - just to see how busted they actually are. I am almost certain the Ubers didn't get a day in OU at all, so this would be a very fun experiment.

After all, I'm in it for the chaos >:)
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This is basically the point I'm trying to make here. Many arguments for Giratina's trial run seem to acknowledge that it's very likely overpowered, and that it would completely turn the metagame upside-down. Arguments for its actual inclusion seem weak and speculative at most, and are predicated more on the idea of such a test being "fun."

I'm not opposed to creating a fiasco in the tier for entertainments' sake, but we need to acknowledge that our reasoning is somewhat arbitrary and likely exaggerated, downplaying the potential flaws in order to rationalize a desire for excitement.
 
Tenfold said:
I understand what point you're making, and I agree. But just because something performs poorly in Ubers doesn't necessarily mean it's a good fit for OU. That being said, I do agree that Uber bans should be open for discussion. I also encourage careful scrutiny, however, as such bans typically have good reasons behind them.




This is basically the point I'm trying to make here. Many arguments for Giratina's trial run seem to acknowledge that it's very likely overpowered, and that it would completely turn the metagame upside-down. Arguments for its actual inclusion seem weak and speculative at most, and are predicated more on the idea of such a test being "fun."

I'm not opposed to creating a fiasco in the tier for entertainments' sake, but we need to acknowledge that our reasoning is somewhat arbitrary and likely exaggerated, downplaying the potential flaws in order to rationalize a desire for excitement.
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wait, i've got it

a giratina-a "suspect" should be next year's afd ladder

that way we can actually see how bullshit it is (or isn't) without even having to hold an actual suspect, in the same way that this year's afd ladder showcased exactly why species clause is a thing. as a bonus, it plays into the "smogon loves stall" meme in a non-serious way
 
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As much as I love the concept of retesting Ubers in OU (I was a big Deoxys-D OU advocate in Gen 7), I don't feel that it's really a great point of conversation at least until the DLC rolls around and we get more options. Pretty much every Uber Pokemon in the game at the moment would be too much for OU, and it would be detrimental to the meta to consider drops right now.

I've gotten in some talks with people on Showdown about retesting, so I'll summarize below how I feel about every Uber Pokemon that I've seen suggested for drops and why I feel they're too much at the moment.

Annihilape - Ghost/Fighting with Bulk Up + Tera and Rage Fist cleans up most team compositions late game with proper support. Far more powerful than people give it credit for.

Arceus Ice/Bug/any type - Arceus is far more deadly now than in any previous generation IMO - it has even more options and a much smaller pool of Pokemon to contend against it. Not even worth discussing for a drop.

Calyrex-Ice - 100/150/130 bulk with the most spammable physical STAB move in the game (Glacial Lance), access to screens, insane offensive typing, fantastic coverage, and Leech Seed + boosting options like Swords Dance? No, thank you.

Chien-Pao - It took a while to show, but Chien-Pao's attributes put way too much pressure on team building - it's literally Weavile on steroids, and Weavile was considered for a ban several times amongst the player base. Ubers is right where it belongs.

Chi-Yu - Do you want to have to run Max HP Max SpD Blissey or Clod on every team? Trust me, just don't.

Dialga (Base Form) - I've seen some semi-convincing arguments for this mon due to its exploitable Ground and Fighting-type weaknesses coupled with a lack of reliable recovery... until you factor in bulky sets with Tera + T-Wave, Rocks, and monstrous coverage + neutrality to other Dragon/Ice type attacks along with access to Trick for Scarf variants, Trick Room, and Bulk Up sweepers off of a very usable (and often forgotten about) base 120 attack. It's too versatile with stats that are too high for the tier overall.

Espathra - The Shaymin-Sky of Gen 9, kill it with fire and keep it out of OU.

Eternatus - Too fast and too powerful with access to Recover - STAB Dynamax Cannon means that non-Specs/Scarf sets don't have to rely on Draco Meteor, Sludge Bomb is additionally great STAB that nukes any fringe fairy options, while coverage in Shadow Ball and Flamethrower obliterates most of its checks. Additionally - Tera means that with Tera Blast it can turn the tables on Pokemon that would be able to handle it (however shakily), it's too much.

Flutter Mane - People can suggest Sucker Punch all they want until people start investing just enough EVs to live a Kingambit strike or run Tera-Fighting. This thing is way too powerful, fast, and bulky with great coverage and wonderful additional movepool options. Trust me, keep it in Ubers.

Giratina/Giratina-O - I get why there's pushing to test this, but the combination of bulk + stats with various movepool options for boosting like Calm Mind is simply too much - additionally, Tera means that Tera Fairy Giratina can waltz over most of its checks. It would put too much pressure and constraints on team building to handle it

Groudon - I've seen some people say that because Ursaluna is in OU, Groudon should be given a test - I could not disagree more. Groudon may not have Guts or Ghost Immunity, but it has 100/140/90 Bulk with 90 speed and a base 150 Attack - Ursaluna has 130/105/80 Bulk with a paltry 50 speed. Ursaluna has 140 base attack with Guts, sure, but Ursaluna also has a glaring Fighting weakness, cannot run Scarf if it wants to utilize Guts, is far slower, and cannot use Stealth Rock or Spikes. Groudon is essentially Ursaluna, but faster with the ability to set hazards and set up without reliance on status for power.

Magearna - No

Miraidon - Bulky Calm Mind variants effectively eliminate most of its checks barring highly specialized ones - Hadron Engine means that it cannot be hit with Amoonguss/Breloom Spore, Electro Drift is one of the most spammable STAB moves on the planet (which would lead to the most common OU variant likely being Tera Water with Calm Mind, Tera Blast, Electro Drift, and Draco Meteor. If that seems like an annoying set - understand that it also gets Flash Cannon, Dazzling Gleam, Power Gem, and Overheat. It's far too much for OU.

Palafin - People were calling for Basculegion to be banned because of its power under rain - Palafin has that same nuclear power, but can function without rain as well. Not worth it, keep it out of OU.

Volcarona - Extremely matchup-fishy and puts the same type of teambuilding constraints in place that Chien-Pao did. OU is healthier without the fire moth.

Zacian-Base - 120 Attack with +1 on the first switch in, access to both Swords Dance and Trailblaze along with STAB Play Rough and coverage options in Crunch, Close Combat/Sacred Sword, Poison Jab/Iron Head, and Wild Charge along with Tera. Not worth it, keep it out of OU.
 
Morkal said:
ding dong, your post is long
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i'm sorry, you know people who were advocating a test of eternatus? the thing that was top 3 last gen in terms of usage and on the vr, lost virtually nothing of importance in the transferpocalypse, and is currently sitting comfortably in a-tier on this gen's vr? and groudon, which is even higher on the vr and found its way onto an ubers tiering survey last gen? and fucking miraidon??? who are these people you're hanging out with?
 
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DaddyBuzzwole said:
i'm sorry, you know people who were advocating a test of eternatus? the thing that was top 3 last gen in terms of usage and on the vr, lost virtually nothing of importance in the transferpocalypse, and is currently sitting comfortably in a-tier on this gen's vr? and groudon, which is even higher on the vr and found its way onto an ubers tiering survey last gen? and fucking miraidon??? who are these people you're hanging out with?
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Meanwhile, the very few Eternatuses I've ran into on cart all got slaughtered by my Scarf Gardevoir.
 
bigasschungusboi said:
Calc walls will always be off-putting but on paper and in practice are 2 wholly different things.
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this is true. when gen 7's base stats and abilities leaked pre-release, people were expecting toxapex to be broken. then the games actually came out and you know what i'm probably going to make a lot of enemies if i keep talking so i'm just going to stop
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
i'm sorry, you know people who were advocating a test of eternatus? the thing that was top 3 last gen in terms of usage and on the vr, lost virtually nothing of importance in the transferpocalypse, and is currently sitting comfortably in a-tier on this gen's vr? and groudon, which is even higher on the vr and found its way onto an ubers tiering survey last gen? and fucking miraidon??? who are these people you're hanging out with?
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I once saw a person argue in the OU chat for a straight 20 minutes about how they felt Rayquaza would be healthy for OU - never underestimate the unhinged nature of Showdown's chat

Speaking of OU mons though - one of my favorite newcomers finally reached his well-deserved OU slot by usage

250px-0989Sandy_Shocks.png

How are you all feeling about Sandy Shocks right now? What type of sets have you seen and what types of sets have you been using? Screens Shocks has been really interesting and I've been seeing it more commonly as of late.
 
Morkal said:
I once saw a person argue in the OU chat for a straight 20 minutes about how they felt Rayquaza would be healthy for OU - never underestimate the unhinged nature of Showdown's chat

Speaking of OU mons though - one of my favorite newcomers finally reached his well-deserved OU slot by usage


How are you all feeling about Sandy Shocks right now? What type of sets have you seen and what types of sets have you been using? Screens Shocks has been really interesting and I've been seeing it more commonly as of late.
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i think he got robbed by the "ohhhh they all have to have the same ability" design philosophy. imagine this thing with magnet pull, there wouldn't be a single steel-type in the tier by usage
 
Morkal said:
I once saw a person argue in the OU chat for a straight 20 minutes about how they felt Rayquaza would be healthy for OU - never underestimate the unhinged nature of Showdown's chat

Speaking of OU mons though - one of my favorite newcomers finally reached his well-deserved OU slot by usage


How are you all feeling about Sandy Shocks right now? What type of sets have you seen and what types of sets have you been using? Screens Shocks has been really interesting and I've been seeing it more commonly as of late.
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I've been playing around with Booster: Speed Tera Ice Stonks and I've found it to be kinda mid. Some games it did nothing, other times it swept through teams like a hot knife through butter. Realistically, I don't see myself using it much.
 
Morkal said:
As much as I love the concept of retesting Ubers in OU (I was a big Deoxys-D OU advocate in Gen 7), I don't feel that it's really a great point of conversation at least until the DLC rolls around and we get more options. Pretty much every Uber Pokemon in the game at the moment would be too much for OU, and it would be detrimental to the meta to consider drops right now.

I've gotten in some talks with people on Showdown about retesting, so I'll summarize below how I feel about every Uber Pokemon that I've seen suggested for drops and why I feel they're too much at the moment.

Annihilape - Ghost/Fighting with Bulk Up + Tera and Rage Fist cleans up most team compositions late game with proper support. Far more powerful than people give it credit for.

Arceus Ice/Bug/any type - Arceus is far more deadly now than in any previous generation IMO - it has even more options and a much smaller pool of Pokemon to contend against it. Not even worth discussing for a drop.

Calyrex-Ice - 100/150/130 bulk with the most spammable physical STAB move in the game (Glacial Lance), access to screens, insane offensive typing, fantastic coverage, and Leech Seed + boosting options like Swords Dance? No, thank you.

Chien-Pao - It took a while to show, but Chien-Pao's attributes put way too much pressure on team building - it's literally Weavile on steroids, and Weavile was considered for a ban several times amongst the player base. Ubers is right where it belongs.

Chi-Yu - Do you want to have to run Max HP Max SpD Blissey or Clod on every team? Trust me, just don't.

Dialga (Base Form) - I've seen some semi-convincing arguments for this mon due to its exploitable Ground and Fighting-type weaknesses coupled with a lack of reliable recovery... until you factor in bulky sets with Tera + T-Wave, Rocks, and monstrous coverage + neutrality to other Dragon/Ice type attacks along with access to Trick for Scarf variants, Trick Room, and Bulk Up sweepers off of a very usable (and often forgotten about) base 120 attack. It's too versatile with stats that are too high for the tier overall.

Espathra - The Shaymin-Sky of Gen 9, kill it with fire and keep it out of OU.

Eternatus - Too fast and too powerful with access to Recover - STAB Dynamax Cannon means that non-Specs/Scarf sets don't have to rely on Draco Meteor, Sludge Bomb is additionally great STAB that nukes any fringe fairy options, while coverage in Shadow Ball and Flamethrower obliterates most of its checks. Additionally - Tera means that with Tera Blast it can turn the tables on Pokemon that would be able to handle it (however shakily), it's too much.

Flutter Mane - People can suggest Sucker Punch all they want until people start investing just enough EVs to live a Kingambit strike or run Tera-Fighting. This thing is way too powerful, fast, and bulky with great coverage and wonderful additional movepool options. Trust me, keep it in Ubers.

Giratina/Giratina-O - I get why there's pushing to test this, but the combination of bulk + stats with various movepool options for boosting like Calm Mind is simply too much - additionally, Tera means that Tera Fairy Giratina can waltz over most of its checks. It would put too much pressure and constraints on team building to handle it

Groudon - I've seen some people say that because Ursaluna is in OU, Groudon should be given a test - I could not disagree more. Groudon may not have Guts or Ghost Immunity, but it has 100/140/90 Bulk with 90 speed and a base 150 Attack - Ursaluna has 130/105/80 Bulk with a paltry 50 speed. Ursaluna has 140 base attack with Guts, sure, but Ursaluna also has a glaring Fighting weakness, cannot run Scarf if it wants to utilize Guts, is far slower, and cannot use Stealth Rock or Spikes. Groudon is essentially Ursaluna, but faster with the ability to set hazards and set up without reliance on status for power.

Magearna - No

Miraidon - Bulky Calm Mind variants effectively eliminate most of its checks barring highly specialized ones - Hadron Engine means that it cannot be hit with Amoonguss/Breloom Spore, Electro Drift is one of the most spammable STAB moves on the planet (which would lead to the most common OU variant likely being Tera Water with Calm Mind, Tera Blast, Electro Drift, and Draco Meteor. If that seems like an annoying set - understand that it also gets Flash Cannon, Dazzling Gleam, Power Gem, and Overheat. It's far too much for OU.

Palafin - People were calling for Basculegion to be banned because of its power under rain - Palafin has that same nuclear power, but can function without rain as well. Not worth it, keep it out of OU.

Volcarona - Extremely matchup-fishy and puts the same type of teambuilding constraints in place that Chien-Pao did. OU is healthier without the fire moth.

Zacian-Base - 120 Attack with +1 on the first switch in, access to both Swords Dance and Trailblaze along with STAB Play Rough and coverage options in Crunch, Close Combat/Sacred Sword, Poison Jab/Iron Head, and Wild Charge along with Tera. Not worth it, keep it out of OU.
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Changing up the subject. I mean judging from what's revealed, we're just getting vanilla OU threats (or at least prior OU threats) what with Crawdaunt and Metagross gaining access to Terastallization. Testing has already been done for HOME so this is 100% possible. Going over some of your potential restests, here's my opinion on them and every other Uber rn:

:annihilape:
If nothing is done to Terastallization, it can't be in OU under any circumstance unless Rage Fist got banned - however, as of now it's a signature move of Primeape & Annihilape. That move alone is why it's not OU. No restest needed.
:arceus-bug:
Ok, MAYBE the bad forms of Arceus can get the boot. But like... can't it use Terastallization? I assume it can't in which case its STILL too much to handle. Arceus Bug is the closest form to OU and even that is still an Arceus form. God shall not be allowed into the realm of OverUsed.
:calyrex-ice:
It's obviously overpowered. You thought Ursaluna was bad? Try it with Moxie in favor of Guts and the biggest attack stat in the game right now. Oh, and it has Swords Dance, Leech Seed, can set Trick Room by itself, can use Terastallization and is MUCH bulkier than Ursaluna. Hard pass.
:calyrex-shadow:
You're joking. This thing is in Anything Goes my guy. U b e r s was a testing ground for this beast. You're sick if you believe this should be retested.
:chien-pao:
It's been banned from OU. Twice. I'm certain nothing can contain it no matter what happens.
:chi-yu:
HA! You really think a special attacker that can out Blissey is OU material? Yea go back to Arkham Asylum and chill out.
:dialga: :dialga-origin:
It's my favorite steel type, but its not allowed in OU for a reason my guy. It's got too many pros and not enough cons. IT EVEN HAS BULK UP!!!
:espathra:
Espathra. The biggest win more pokemon in this gen. Terastillization made it even more obscene to handle. But personally, I don't see the issue with it. It might be able to be retested so long as the tier shifts go against it. Maybe.
:eternatus:
Eternatus. Lemme ask you this question: If a top 3 mon in last gen's Ubers is allowed in OU, what will happen? The answer: nothing good will come out of it. This thing is so obscene It's almost funny.
:flutter mane:
You guys that were here for the first 2 days of Scarlet and Violet OU know what this thing is. It's the ultimate special attacker, and proved to be unhealthy beyond comprehension. Speed, power, decent bulk - it all went right for the devious prehistoric Misdreavus.
:giratina::giratina-origin:
I already mentioned it, but breifly: Maybe. It's not a good idea, but hey we like chaos.
:groudon:
No. Well, its managable... maybe. But I wouldn't recommend it. Plus it got Spikes and Will-o-Wisp support.
:iron bundle:
I wasn't totally sure why it was banned, but having unresisted STABs is not good for any tier. RNG be damned with the robo santa. Slim chance of unbanning.
:koraidon:
Its Groudon with cons. And a free attack boost
:kyogre:
I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole with it being in OU.
:landorus:
Maybe. It's always very strong, and we just gave up testing it. But its still Landorus
:magearna:
I. Don't. Like. This. It will never be allowed in OU no matter what is said and done.
:mewtwo:
??? Probably not. I mean it's Mewtwo tho so
:miraidon:
This is obscene. Absolutely not
:palafin-hero:
I made a bold call saying its an Uber. It's an Uber.
:palkia: :palkia-origin:
The DPP legendaries are all hard passes - including Palkia.
:rayquaza:
Rayquaza. It's not mega, but its Rayquaza. You'd need some major power creep to allow this
:regieleki:
The fastest ban in OU history because of Terastallization. If it goes, Regieleki is like RU
:spectrier:
If Dark types can't take it on when it has no neutral moves, it's not allowed with Dark type coverage
:urshifu: :urshifu-rapid-strike:
Yea no. They're too much for OU to handle. Especially Urshifu Dark.
:volcarona:
It's better than Kingambit in setup sweeping. I personally think its fine, but its really not
:zacian: :zacian-crowned:
No. No no no no no. NOOOOO
:zamazenta-crowned:
It's kinda funny how Zamazenta Hero is OU and the Steel type version is Ubers. And it's staying there


When talking about Ubers in general, Theyre obviously broken. Them being in OU is so ridiculous the only answer is "..."

Oh well, so well. That's just how things are ig
 
In general I think any talk of retesting/testing Ubers should wait until after either: a) a Tera ban/restriction happens or b) Tera stays as it is and the remaining abusers are suspected. Zama-H is one thing, but I seriously doubt adding Giratina-A that can Terastalize is going to make the meta healthier. People can't agree on a Volc retest and that's the least controversial suggestion.

DynamaxBestMeta said:
Huh, where're you getting that from? My source is this, the still locked ubers viability ranking thread.
Click to expand...
Check the post-HOME one
 
Since we're doing this

:annihilape:don't care

:arceus-bug:don't care

:calyrex-ice:don't care

:calyrex-shadow:don't care

:chien-pao:don't care

:chi-yu:don't care

:dialga: :dialga-origin:don't care

:espathra:don't care

:eternatus:don't care

:flutter mane:don't care

:giratina::giratina-origin:no

:groudon:don't care

:iron bundle:don't care

:koraidon:don't care

:kyogre:don't care

:landorus:don't care

:magearna:don't care

:mewtwo:don't care

:miraidon:don't care

:palafin-hero:don't care

:palkia: :palkia-origin:don't care

:rayquaza:don't care

:regieleki:don't care

:spectrier:don't care

:urshifu: :urshifu-rapid-strike:don't care

:volcarona:unban asap tera or not bad decision meta sucks ur bad at the game if you think otherwise can only tera into 1 out of 18 types in the game and you somehow still fuck up your draft against it post elo

:zacian: :zacian-crowned:don't care

:zamazenta-crowned:don't care

ok but shit posting aside, actually i feel pretty good about all the ubers except volc, i don't need to say what hasn't been already said but volc is a hard disagree on and the survey shows its still worth a test. I'm still pushing we test tera first then visit regardless of the result after. Pretty much every uber we've banned so far/don't ever try is for good reasons and I still think zama is just taking more time in the oven for more to realize its a lot more oppressive in practice, I would not be surprised if its another chien-pao were everyone tries it first test, and we revisit later on especially after hitting other things. Most of the mons listed are too braindead click 1 kill button, too bulky and just soak everything... or both. Volc and espathra are the only two standing out because they both need to setup for their bullshit and have teams basically funnel them for success, and even then its draft luck if they have to right matchup to do that... espathra is a little brain dead in how it automatically sets up and tera gives it the coverage to break its only good matchups, while volc on the other hand is trickier to pilot and doesn't have a '1 tera beats all' moveset, making its sweeping potential more 'the stars aligned' which doesn't seem any different from the current unbanned sweepers.
 
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