Me when I win a game off a 55% chance move (Sneasler could never)
Real talk, unbanning Ubers in general is usually a terrible idea, no matter the gen. Zamazenta got lucky (or unlucky) that we realized it's so ass it may be fine in OU
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Me when I win a game off a 55% chance move (Sneasler could never)
Real talk, unbanning Ubers in general is usually a terrible idea, no matter the gen. Zamazenta got lucky (or unlucky) that we realized it's so ass it may be fine in OU
I don't think the discussion itself is something not worth having, since there can be arguments in favor of it and there are successful cases of Ubers being adapted into OU, like Zamazenta-H this very generation. SV OU is kind of a bad example for this point because some of those retested Ubers had to go again, but that was in no small part due to Tera and Tera discussion here should be limited, but follow me. I think the issue is that this generation, there just aren't any Ubers picks here that can actually be justified for OU. We tried Magearna, we tried Chien-Pao, nada. The only one I could really see having an argument for why it might be fine in OU is Palafin, but it's a pretty weak argument that I don't believe in at all. Still, it is worth asking every now and then if a big meta shakeup is enough to drop something. After all, the ideal for the metagame is to have as much stuff legal as possible and without that we wouldn't have Zama-H in the tier, which I personally think is a great addition.
Deo-D is the only "chronic Uber" that I would actually support a retest of assuming it returns via being transferable in DLC. I almost miss the days where it was the most terrifying hazard setter (partially because of the release of things like Hamurott and Glimmora and partially because teams built around broken DeoSharp cores were fun)
Bored of this Uber talk
In all seriousness unbanning volc has a high chance to fuck up the mega by not fucking anything except gambit and all it’s checks and counters but shush firebugrules
soooooooooooo
If, say, gamefreak reveals a Gen 6 remake and added back Gen 6 gale wings (ignoring megas cause why not) how would it affect the meta?
Cause I am currently laughing at band tflame burdening things in ORAS ou
In all seriousness unbanning volc has a high chance to fuck up the mega by not fucking anything except gambit and all it’s checks and counters but shush firebugrules
soooooooooooo
If, say, gamefreak reveals a Gen 6 remake and added back Gen 6 gale wings (ignoring megas cause why not) how would it affect the meta?
Cause I am currently laughing at band tflame burdening things in ORAS ou
I miss Mega Gardevoir. :< That shit was my jam.
I miss mega mawile, sure it was kingambit with a different coat of paint but it made mawile great and genuinely fun to use in all formats.
Also I miss mega swampert, mon was genuinely the most fun I had with weather teams and singlehandedly made rain way stronger by existing.
If they make one off returns in the future someday in future gens I can't wait to use them again!
I don't like Megas. Most Megas could just be evos and have future proofing forever.
You can cut Megas, but if you're gonna have Mawile, you're gonna have the full evo line. So many Pokemon have their viability tied to Megas, and some of them are even one stage lines, like Absol, Sableye, Mawile, etc.
On top of this, the one mon a team limit makes it so they're very much tiered. Audino will never get a viable evolution, because Mega Audino exists, and Megas have to be the final stage of the evo line. Thus, Audino is forever boned with a bad Mega, / no Mega in new gens, and has no hope of becoming more than the most mid Regenerator pivot ever in low tiers.
This was even worse in VGC where if you didn't use the like top 3 Megas you are just throwing.
Basically, I feel Megas restrict how Pokemon can be shifted due to how they used them. I would be much more into it if they did it only for 3 stage lines like Pidgeot and Mega Beedrill, but... That's really the minority.
I'm a fan of the newer gimmicks in concept over Megas purely because they do not restrict Pokemon, or tie Pokemon into a specific viability forever. Your favorite Pokemon was dogshit until it got a Mega? If you can't Mega, it's dogshit yet. And if the Pokemon are already buffed and good without Megas, there isn't a real need for them.
Yes some Pokemon are mega buffed by Z Moves like Porygon-Z, but it's still pretty much the same Pokemon without it.
Tera may be a major buff to some Pokemon, but not in a way that literally restricts their evolution line. If in 2074 Game Freak wants to give Avalugg a new evolution, they can still do that. If Avalugg got a Mega? Nah.
You can cut Megas, but if you're gonna have Mawile, you're gonna have the full evo line. So many Pokemon have their viability tied to Megas, and some of them are even one stage lines, like Absol, Sableye, Mawile, etc.
On top of this, the one mon a team limit makes it so they're very much tiered. Audino will never get a viable evolution, because Mega Audino exists, and Megas have to be the final stage of the evo line. Thus, Audino is forever boned with a bad Mega, / no Mega in new gens, and has no hope of becoming more than the most mid Regenerator pivot ever in low tiers.
This was even worse in VGC where if you didn't use the like top 3 Megas you are just throwing.
Basically, I feel Megas restrict how Pokemon can be shifted due to how they used them. I would be much more into it if they did it only for 3 stage lines like Pidgeot and Mega Beedrill, but... That's really the minority.
I'm a fan of the newer gimmicks in concept over Megas purely because they do not restrict Pokemon, or tie Pokemon into a specific viability forever. Your favorite Pokemon was dogshit until it got a Mega? If you can't Mega, it's dogshit yet. And if the Pokemon are already buffed and good without Megas, there isn't a real need for them.
Yes some Pokemon are mega buffed by Z Moves like Porygon-Z, but it's still pretty much the same Pokemon without it.
Tera may be a major buff to some Pokemon, but not in a way that literally restricts their evolution line. If in 2074 Game Freak wants to give Avalugg a new evolution, they can still do that. If Avalugg got a Mega? Nah.
Lemme help you pick those up - oh oops, I just dropped mine too!whoops i dropped these
Ngl, a fair chunk of the new evos and paradox mons like Gambit, Iron Valiant, Iron Hands and Flutter Mane feel like they could be classified as megas in terms of how they change the Pokemon. At least mons like Gambit will be permanent additions.
To be honest, some of the Megas were complete cheeks -- on either end of the spectrum. Either cheeks to play against (busted as hell, ala Mega Mom, Mawile, Mence, Blaziken, Lucario, etc.), or were complete shit (Audino, Aggron, Houndoom, Steelix, Abomasnow...) Some Megas were actually very good while also being fairly reasonable. (Mega Garde, Manectric, TTar, Chomp, etc.) I loved Mega Evolution as a mechanic just because it often lent itself to changing a Pokemon's play style, and served to give some Pokemon certain niches.
One egregious thing I will never forgive GameFreak for with Megas is Absol; Why in the hell did we not get it as a Dark/Fairy type!? It'd be PERFECT as one!
Some Pokemon never needed a Mega (TTar, Chomp, Blaziken, Lucario...) but some loved having a Mega. It isn't entirely a thing of "Is this dogshit without a mega? Then dogshit permanently." Sure, a lot of the Pokemon that got a Mega were bad beforehand, but some were between serviceable and good without it. The Mega just gave it an extra push.
Z-Moves were busted AF. A non-recharge elemental Hyper Beam that pierces Protect (for a 50% damage penalty) that is only stopped by immunities? Sure, you give up an item slot for it, but if you just delete the only check to a certain Pokemon on the opposing team, you usually win by default.
IMO, when it comes to generational gimmicks, Megas > Tera > Z Moves > Dmax/Gmax. No one, absolutely no one, can argue that Dmax/Gmax was ever at all a balanced thing, lmao.
i can agree with pretty much everything said here except the claim that mega aggron was "complete shit". it was b- on the ou vr last time it existed, so it was mid at least, and it was solid in uu (a- on the vr there). from my personal experience piloting it, that thing was a fucking monster at eating physical hits and was one of the only megas that fit well on stall. don't diss my boy mega aggron
Yeah, Mega Aggron was the goat. I remember CTC making some really cool stall team w/ Restalk Mega Aggron with DTail that was extremely goated & fun to use. Heavy Slam would get rid of Fairies making D-Tail very Spammable
I wonder if Hisii Goodra can pull off a similar role since it too has the strong Heavy Slam to get rid of Fairy Tera Pokemon & hazards are stronger now.
I wonder if Hisii Goodra can pull off a similar role since it too has the strong Heavy Slam to get rid of Fairy Tera Pokemon & hazards are stronger now.
hisuian goodra doesn't have the utterly bonkers bulk that mega aggron had, so i don't think you would get the same results with that set. if you're looking for a fat rest-phazer, closest you're gonna get to mega aggron would probably be ting-lu. as for goodra-h, my preferred set is av
This Goodra on paper looks super good, but in pratice it gets 2HKO by everything it would like to check, gen 9 mons have a lot of coverage for no reason so most of them have something to hit goodra for SE damage so it gets overwhelmed easily.
Historically, all I've ever seen of Mega Aggron was people dogging on it. I'd personally rather run regular Aggron over Mega, but that's because I have a soft spot for my cracked af Sub Punch + Head Smash Aggron set.
i personally always went with banded head smash myself (in tier shift, i've never used regular aggron in ou). that thing is a nuclear bomb in ts and it's gonna be even better with tera fighting body press if it comes back in the dlc
Usage doesn't always reflect the true viability of a mon, we have seen a lot of times how mons get overlooked for a long time until people realize that they are good, Mega Aggron was great checking a lot of stuff while getting some important kos, I think people just liked other megas more, which is fair since you only could pick one.
If (and this is a strong if) Zygarde comes in the DLC I see no problem with it being in OU. I mean, it effectively has no ability due to Xerneas and Yveltal, as well as Zygarde-Complete being in Ubers. Its BST is 600, the same as any old pseudo legendary, and 108/100/121/81/95/95 isn’t really distribution to write home about. Thousand Waves and Thousand Arrows might come to people’s mind’s, but those are, at best, pretty good moves. Hitting flying types and trapping the opponent are nice effects, but it’s still a low BP than EQ, for the same PP.
I mean, if we dropped Hoopa-Unbound and Zamazenta, with respective 680 and 660 BST, then Zygarde can be dropped too.
“Um actually Hoopa is four times weak to Bug, that’s diff-“ Zygarde is 4x weak to Ice, and there ain’t no STAB U-turn going around in OU (in fact, not even a singe bug type in the tier) as opposed to the common STAB Priority Baxcalibur and Ice Spinner Great Tusk. If Hoopa-Unbound is not only fine, but also under 10% usage, then I see no problem with Zygarde. Feel free to tell me why you think I’m wrong.
I mean, if we dropped Hoopa-Unbound and Zamazenta, with respective 680 and 660 BST, then Zygarde can be dropped too.
“Um actually Hoopa is four times weak to Bug, that’s diff-“ Zygarde is 4x weak to Ice, and there ain’t no STAB U-turn going around in OU (in fact, not even a singe bug type in the tier) as opposed to the common STAB Priority Baxcalibur and Ice Spinner Great Tusk. If Hoopa-Unbound is not only fine, but also under 10% usage, then I see no problem with Zygarde. Feel free to tell me why you think I’m wrong.
You defo haven't seen the mind-melting clicking capabilities of Thousand Arrows
This is most likely why I never really saw it much, and most people I saw talking about it were ragging on it. When you compare it to other Megas you'd want to take that slot, it just falls behind in spite of being such a massive tank. That and losing leftovers recovery.
Lol I get where you’re coming from. But Hyperspace Hole breaks protect just like Wicked Blow, and from 30 more points of attack is hitting harder than Urshifu, and MUCH harder than Thousand Arrows could dream of. Hoopa can also troll you by going special if it wishes to do so, so it’s unpredictable on what Hoopa is running. Yet, Hoopa isn’t exactly game breaking. So why would Zygarde be?
The difference between Hoopa and Zygarde is that Hoopa is slow and has no way to boost it's speed or bulk, where as Zygarde has Coil, Dragon Dance, and Glare. It's Choice Band set would probably be totally fine and infact quite mediocre but the setup sets, especially with Tera, will straight up destroy things.
Hoopa is worse than zyg because it has nonexistant physical bulk, no resistances beside psy, and its moves have relatively safe switches and tons of resists in the meta.
Ignoring the lack of knowledge on USUM OU for a minute.
You do realize that Zama and Hoopa-U have different roles and stat distributions than Zyagrde, right? You can’t compare the two. Zama is a fast wincon while Hoppa-U is a wallbreaker. Assuming Zygarde would be healthy for OU if it came back via DLC using the logic that we have other mons with the same bst is utterly ridiculous. BST doesn’t determine shit, its how stats/typing/abilities/moves lineup, otherwise Clefable would’ve been NU last gen. Hoopa-U is balanced not because of a 4x weakness to U-Turn, its because its frail as shit on the physical side. A single nudge KOs it.
Zygarde was broken in USUM and SS because it was bulky as shit and could run a billion sets. CB, Sub-Glare, DD, Toxic + Protect, Coil, Double Dance, Rest, etc. T-Arrows is great because it doesn’t have to run coverage to beat would-be checks.
Accounting it on the builder consistently was impossible unless you stacked in like 3-4 Zygarde checks. In SV it be even worse since it can Tera and be EVEN HARDER TO CHECK.
Might as well drop Calyrex-S down here cause it has a 4x weakness to Dark and Ghost, right?
People in the forum want to drop in Ubers into OU without considering why they’re broken in the first place and it adds nothing to metagame discussion. Just theorycrafting that has been tested begore and proven false. We are not dropping Zacian-H down here cause Skeledirge walls it.
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