Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is the Smogon definition for Broken.
Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

I think its broken because it better than every other option in the meta. If you dont have it, its almost like a disadvantage. It literally dictates endgames like no other mon has before. Supreme Overlord is busted and not balanced. It sucker punch kills every thing and if it cant, it teras to get better defensive typing. All this in conjunction with tera makes it broken. If it was required to stay Steel-dark typing it wouldn’t be.

The two main checks in Iron Valiant and Great Tusk get beaten 1v1 if Gambit teras. Tusk want to earthquake or cc, it can tera Flying or Fairy. The same with Valiant. Kingambit is broken because it abuses Tera like no other in the OU meta atm.
 
MegaScizor32 said:
This is the Smogon definition for Broken.
Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

I think its broken because it better than every other option in the meta. If you dont have it, its almost like a disadvantage. It literally dictates endgames like no other mon has before. Supreme Overlord is busted and not balanced. It sucker punch kills every thing and if it cant, it teras to get better defensive typing. All this in conjunction with tera makes it broken. If it was required to stay Steel-dark typing it wouldn’t be.

The two main checks in Iron Valiant and Great Tusk get beaten 1v1 if Gambit teras. Tusk want to earthquake or cc, it can tera Flying or Fairy. The same with Valiant. Kingambit is broken because it abuses Tera like no other in the OU meta atm.
Click to expand...
I mostly agree with this, except for the fact that Gambit actually begins to apply pressure around the mid game and then really picks up late game. That raw 135 attack stat, even without Choice Band, is such a threat.
 
Without weighing on if I think Gambit is outright broken, I think the big thing is you have to be able to read all your opponent's options and REALLY hope your responses have a good outcome for what they could do (Sucker, Boost, Raw attack, Tera, switching, etc). Given Gambit's main performance is mid-late game (ironic given its namesake is for an opening move), one wrong move puts immediate pressure since there isn't as much of your team/the battle left to regain that momentum.

The thing is despite the namesake for Chess, Kingambit feels more akin to a Queen, in that it has a ridiculous number of options to position itself offensively and is really hard to approach with traditional answers or movement. The question there comes down to if those answers to Kingambit are considered so niche as to make it an unhealthy metagame presence, or just unorthodox and unexplored despite the Mon's extensive presence.
 
MegaScizor32 said:
This is the Smogon definition for Broken.
Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

I think its broken because it better than every other option in the meta. If you dont have it, its almost like a disadvantage. It literally dictates endgames like no other mon has before. Supreme Overlord is busted and not balanced. It sucker punch kills every thing and if it cant, it teras to get better defensive typing. All this in conjunction with tera makes it broken. If it was required to stay Steel-dark typing it wouldn’t be.

The two main checks in Iron Valiant and Great Tusk get beaten 1v1 if Gambit teras. Tusk want to earthquake or cc, it can tera Flying or Fairy. The same with Valiant. Kingambit is broken because it abuses Tera like no other in the OU meta atm.
Click to expand...
Gambit doesn't have to abuse tera, but tera is legal so it will. Without tera it will probably still be A rank or above because base 135 atk and supreme overlord hits like a truck. tera just lets it choose it's checks, which is common among tera users and abusers. i see how this could be problematic in some situations because kingambit is often the last or second last mon and at that point both sides have probably lost a portion of their team so the check that it chose by tera-ing may already be dead. If gambit was banned, tusk usage would most likely drop, don't get me wrong tusk is an amazing mon but it serves as the best check to gambit. Besides, even if gambit decides to tera tusk could still beat it because kingambit isn't immediately threatening since +0 iron head probably does like 30% with 5 allies fainted. Some variants of tusk of started running ice spinner as well, which is very bad for flying gambit. Fire gambit dies to eq and headlong rush and great tusk learns iron head and heavy slam, which could lure and kill fairy gambit and valiant.
 
Gambit is pretty strong, but I think people underestimate that Tera has the opportunity cost of making Gambit worse in the Gambit Ditto (barring low kick) & that the nature of Sucker Punch means that even Pokemon Gambit should be destroying like Pult and Gholdengo aren't free MUs because they can cripple it with Wisp / Trick.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
"no, guys, you don't get it, it's not broken because both teams are using it"
Click to expand...
They aren't, one is using ditto, they have a different dex number and Ditto usage doesn't count as Gambit's in the montly stats. :boi:
Now to add something and not just shitpost, what do you guys consider is the most oppressing aspect about Gambit? I know that it is considered overpowered by the sum of all its traits, but I have noticed each people has different pov of what makes Gambit too much for the tier. For me it is the ability to punish a missplay, I believe that not other mon punishes you more for getting a turn wrong like Gambit, not sure if what I'm saying makes sense for others so you can ask if you want me to get more in deep with that.
 
Mega Breloom said:
They aren't, one is using ditto, they have a different dex number and Ditto usage doesn't count as Gambit's in the montly stats. :boi:
Now to add something and not just shitpost, what do you guys consider is the most oppressing aspect about Gambit? I know that it is considered overpowered by the sum of all its traits, but I have noticed each people has different pov of what makes Gambit too much for the tier. For me it is the ability to punish a missplay, I believe that not other mon punishes you more for getting a turn wrong like Gambit, not sure if what I'm saying makes sense for others so you can ask if you want me to get more in deep with that.
Click to expand...

I think it's that it's a 100/120/85 steel type. If it was a worse defensive type, or not 90% of the way to Garganacl's defenses, you could just eat a hit and kill it on the return swing.

Sure, it's got three common weaknesses. But outside of those, not a whole hell of a lot really threatens a clean OHKO. And Gambit is very good at killing you if it gets to click two buttons.
 
Mega Breloom said:
Now to add something and not just shitpost, what do you guys consider is the most oppressing aspect about Gambit? I know that it is considered overpowered by the sum of all its traits, but I have noticed each people has different pov of what makes Gambit too much for the tier. For me it is the ability to punish a missplay, I believe that not other mon punishes you more for getting a turn wrong like Gambit, not sure if what I'm saying makes sense for others so you can ask if you want me to get more in deep with that.
Click to expand...
Supreme Overlord
 
Since the point of `mons is to have fun, I thought I'd share a couple of sets that I've been having fun with, even if they're objectively pretty "meh":

Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Disable
- Encore
- Wish
- Psychic Fangs

Disable + Encore lets you shut down both Choice users and setup sweepers (or just generally generate favorable switching opportunities) to enable Wish-passing. In rare occasions, the combo can even win you an otherwise un-winnable MU by forcing the opponent to Struggle. Scream Tail is never going to accomplish much offensively (outside of rare CM sets), so Psychic Fangs over Dazzling Gleam is about utility as much as anything, providing an unexpected outlet against Screens (especially in conjunction with Encore to shut down setup sweepers).

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Sand Tomb
- Endure
- Dragon Tail
- Spikes

Sand Tomb increases the passive damage output of Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet while creating opportunities to stack spikes or to muck things up with Dragon Tail. Endure lets you add an extra round of passive damage to contact attackers (potentially multiple times, depending on your hazard control), which can make a surprising difference.

Enamorus @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 216 HP / 40 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Play Rough
- Tera Blast
- Substitute

I still think Physical Contrary Enamorus is generally an anti-set, but it's sure fun. TB Ghost is solid coverage for Gholdengo and Glowking while providing good neutral coverage that doesn't make contact into Zapdos/Moltres and most Helmet `mons. The Poison resist + Fighting immunity also help you not get RKed by Sneasler. HP investment, lefties, and Sub all give you more space to"set up" with Super Power. Pro-tip, lead it into webs, lol.

Bonus Content: Possibly the Platonic Ideal match featuring the Zapdos + Washtom tandem:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1906890330-5pp151n2reas57c9t093agmyfnad0o7pw
 
AM said:
Supreme Overlord
Click to expand...
On the one hand, a very interesting mechanic that makes you consider more when you should switch in your Gambit. On the other hand, it allows bullshit reverse sweeps to happen in too many situations and has too much of a warping effect on the game

It reminds me a lot of Sparking from Dragon Ball FighterZ, but whilst I mostly enjoy this mechanic in FighterZ, it doesn't work in Pokemon because often, not both players have access to this mechanic
 
Mega Breloom said:
They aren't, one is using ditto, they have a different dex number and Ditto usage doesn't count as Gambit's in the montly stats. :boi:
Now to add something and not just shitpost, what do you guys consider is the most oppressing aspect about Gambit? I know that it is considered overpowered by the sum of all its traits, but I have noticed each people has different pov of what makes Gambit too much for the tier. For me it is the ability to punish a missplay, I believe that not other mon punishes you more for getting a turn wrong like Gambit, not sure if what I'm saying makes sense for others so you can ask if you want me to get more in deep with that.
Click to expand...
Leigitmately, my major thing with Gambit is that it has a stupidly fat attack stat that gets bigger as the game goes on, without any user input or immediate risk required. (I don't consider losing mons to be an immediate risk, plus SO stacks with Revival Blessing, like Last Respects does.)

The weird thing is that SO apparently boosts Special Attack as well as Attack... But who tf is using something like Flash Cannon Gambit?
 
Local Dog said:
On the one hand, a very interesting mechanic that makes you consider more when you should switch in your Gambit. On the other hand, it allows bullshit reverse sweeps to happen in too many situations and has too much of a warping effect on the game

It reminds me a lot of Sparking from Dragon Ball FighterZ, but whilst I mostly enjoy this mechanic in FighterZ, it doesn't work in Pokemon because often, not both players have access to this mechanic
Click to expand...
Am I misremembering or doesn't Supreme Overlord boost Kingambit on switch and recount the Fainted Allies each time it does?

SpritePony said:
Leigitmately, my major thing with Gambit is that it has a stupidly fat attack stat that gets bigger as the game goes on, without any user input or immediate risk required. (I don't consider losing mons to be an immediate risk, plus SO stacks with Revival Blessing, like Last Respects does.)

The weird thing is that SO apparently boosts Special Attack as well as Attack... But who tf is using something like Flash Cannon Gambit?
Click to expand...
Great Tusk having flashbacks to Grass Knot lures
 
I’ve been pretty disappointed in the meta lately. Tera has sort of created a combo between HO and BO. Nothing can be killed in one hit, and any Pokémon with Calm Mind now is extremely dangerous/viable. Set up offense is unbelievably broken. And then Gambit is still floating around, a literal king of it all. it’s very difficult to win consistently and doesn’t really feel like a good meta to learn/improve on. Any style besides offense isn’t really viable.

I think with tera the vote should just be if it stays or goes, when I see a Cress, knowing it’s tera type isn’t an issue, it’s that once it tera, it becomes impossible to stop.
 
pika pal said:
Am I misremembering or doesn't Supreme Overlord boost Kingambit on switch and recount the Fainted Allies each time it does?
Click to expand...
It does! But switching it in early can still be disadvantageous, as it can chip down your Gambit and make the possibility of a late game Gambit clean more unlikely.
 
pika pal said:
Great Tusk having flashbacks to Grass Knot lures
Click to expand...
I literally just took a look at the calcs for GK Gambit vs my standard Tusk set and yikes.
0 SpA Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Great Tusk: 188-222 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now that's scary. With Zero allies fainted.
BobbyHill said:
I’ve been pretty disappointed in the meta lately. Tera has sort of created a combo between HO and BO. Nothing can be killed in one hit, and any Pokémon with Calm Mind now is extremely dangerous/viable. Set up offense is unbelievably broken. And then Gambit is still floating around, a literal king of it all. it’s very difficult to win consistently and doesn’t really feel like a good meta to learn/improve on. Any style besides offense isn’t really viable.

I think with tera the vote should just be if it stays or goes, when I see a Cress, knowing it’s tera type isn’t an issue, it’s that once it tera, it becomes impossible to stop.
Click to expand...
Taunt: Exists
Unaware Mons: Exists
Cress is literally a diet Espathra.
 
Last edited:
Admittedly, that suspect test starting up this Monday puts a dampener on my chances to actually get reqs for it, if it's the Tera suspect. I won't really be able to grind the ladder since I'll be hosting a guest for a week.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top