I fully expect a supermajority ban on it. I'd even vote ban, in spite of Pult going nuts once it's gone. Gambit is a little too nuts by itself to really stay.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Who knew losing Knock Off in favor of an evolution would break Bisharp?
But honestly, if Kingambit had Knock Off tho, it'd be gone months ago
People are still ragging on poor Bisharp... I think it will be a fine replacement for Gambit, even if less threatening immediately.
Who knew losing Knock Off in favor of an evolution would break Bisharp?
But honestly, if Kingambit had Knock Off tho, it'd be gone months ago
It's really not though. It has so little offensive pressure it exhibits as it lacks spammable dark stab, isn't even that strong after an SD, and has a useless speed tier. And unless you run eviolite, Bisharp lacks bulk. But running eviolite means it has even LESS power.
There's a reason Bisharp isn't even exactly good in UU. There's no hope for it in OU.
I wholly disagree. I went through some testing with it and Eviolite Bisharp does pretty damn well. If Bisharp's base 70 speed is a "useless" speed tier, then Kingambit's base 50 is absolutely abysmal.
Sure, Bisharp doesn't hit as hard as Kingambit, even after a Swords Dance, but it still has similar profiling to it.
I do want to note that whether or not it pans out, this isn't strictly a rule. Different environments can make Pokemon more viable in a tier above their usage wherein they're bad there, and if the concern is "we are desperate for Ghost-Spam checks without Kingambit" then I think people would find ways to play Bisharp to that end.
If King gets banned then Finch is gonna have to change his leader banner to Great Tusk or something lol.
It working personally for you doesn't mean it works on a broader scale. Plenty of people have made bad Pokemon work for them. That doesn't represent the Pokemon generally being good, but the player using them. When I say Bisharp's speed tier is useless, I mean it doesn't make a difference over Kingambit's. The extra speed doesn't help it in any matchups that Kingambit doesn't already win.
It doesn't just not hit as hard, it hits so much weaker that it's a wet noodle by comparison.
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 171-202 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 135-159 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Like there's no comparison especially when Gambit gets stronger over a game and can overcome walls while Bisharp remains walled. It only has a shared typing with Gambit, but past that has significantly worse offensive presence and defensive presence.
This typically applies to defensive Pokemon though. It's much harder to rationalize using an offensive Pokemon that is bad in a lower tier, in a higher tier unless it has a unique offensive profile suited for the higher tier that it ends up working in the end. With Bisharp just being significantly worse than Kingambit, it's not gonna fill that role.
And if we're so concerned for a ghost check that we're pulling out junk like Bisharp, then that's just a sign that ghost type offense (Pult cough cough) is an issue. But even there we have counterplay with Tinglu and Garganacl existing.
Tell that to Pokemon like Quag and Gastro in earlier gens. In their sitting tier, they were mid to bad. In higher tiers, they were very good. Just because a Pokemon is bad in their tier doesn't mean they will guaranteed be bad in OU.
Kingambit is insane. Check out blunder’s recent video. Its broken 
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fr, that gambit reverse sweep was brazyKingambit is insane. Check out blunder’s recent video. Its broken
Used to be NU Leader, not anymore
Used to have Toxapex Banner, not anymore
Used to have Kingambit Banner, not anymore >:)
They were decent in their respective tiers in old gens so that's not really right. But also, defensive Pokemon tend to fluctuate in viability in various tiers because their qualities make them valuable based on metagame context and what they specifically check. Gastrodon is a great example because it was mostly mediocre last gen in OU until the rise of multiple Pokemon that Gastrodon could check, which also let it leverage its other good qualities.
When it comes to offensive Pokemon, this can sometimes happen. But the gap between OU and UU in terms of defensive Pokemon that check Bisharp is large, and if Bisharp can't be threatening in UU then there isn't any hope for it in OU where defensive stops to it are in even greater abundance. It's simply got too many flaws to succeed.
So kingambit suspect test?
If you ONLY think of it as an offensive sweeper, sure. But you don't need it to fulfill that role. It can just be used as a check to various Pokemon. It can threaten various Pokemon, including itself. Hell, I've even used it to CHECK OPPOSING KINGAMBITS. Don't write it off.
Okay. I'll bite. List four Pokemon it checks well that would justify using it.
Volc retest, Finch told it on a dream.
Pult, opposing Gambit if it doesn't carry Low Kick/is Choice locked into something other than LK, Gholdengo, Hatterene, can check Roaring Moon to a fair degree depending upon its set, Corviknight without Body Press (Which a lot of people seem to do these days.)...
Unless running Evo, Bisharp is a flimsy Pult switch in (especially if wisp variants) and specs overwhelms it pretty fast with hazard pressure. Gambit doesn't run Choice Band generally, and Roaring Moon? How are you checking it. DD sets just clobber it after a boost, and CB sets overwhelming it ridiculously easily. While checking Corv is not really a need... At all. It's not really a threat you "check" given its passivity.
Gholdengo and Hatt are okay targets to check, but you need Evo or Bisharp simply isn't bulky enough to do it for long with hazards everywhere. And this brings me to my issue: a Pokemon relying on eviolite is simply not going to work reliably in an OU meta where spikes are arguably more powerful than ever. Especially since it has no reliable recovery. It switches in once, maybe twice to these threats while hazards are up and can't handle the pressure.
Next you're going to tell me that AV Kingambit is a bad set, and that I'm a bad player lmao.
L + ratio + post elo + my opinion is right and yours is wrong + cope + seethe + not even a ZU menace
for real tho, Bisharp right now feels like kingambit loss copium, everyone will make it rise to OU as a way to have a resemblance of a king, if it stays or not, well see, but I would be kinda happy since Chesnaught counters Kingambit, imagine poor bisharp, fuck, even quaquaval could probably dance in his grave no diff and shit
I wouldn't call it copium at all. It's more like exploring other options that can fulfill an actual role other than "haha I win late game because gambit exists"
most of these are dependent on the set, but yeah, generally gambit can check these mons.
Yup, and with Eviolite, Bisharp has better physical bulk than Gambit, and Special Bulk that's nearly on par. The only limiting factor is the HP. 125 Attack is nothing to scoff at. 10 points below Gambit's 135, but we don't get SO.
I almost feel like this discussion would be 180'd if Bisharp ALSO got SO.
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