Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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No way someone made fun of a guy having an anime profile pic on a forum about a japanse game with an anime artstyle and an anime show that has been running for >20 years.
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Anyway, I'm quite miffed to see that Gambit survived, albeit by not a big margin. I've been reading the arguments in the suspect thread and it makes sense to me why it didn't get banned, but personally I've been really disliking post-home OU and was hoping something would change.

That said I'm not even sure what'd "fix" the tier. I dont like how hazard heavy & offense/ho focused the tier is, but taking a single element away probably wouldnt change anything... maybe the DLCs will change something (Defog tutor COPIUM)

Time to go back to UU
 
Moyashi said:
If you have nothing constructive to say
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nah i pointed out how a pure bug can't be viable in the current state of sv ou and maybe not even in sv nu, does not matter if it """counter""" one single pokemon who has >40% usage

our good friend unfortunately forgot to post what kricket can do for countering tusk, but i can post it for him

252+ Atk Technician Kricketune Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 128-152 (29.4 - 35%) -- 13.3% chance to 3HKO

"""counter""", and i am a gentleman to not put leftovers or that was a 4hko

Return to Zero said:
the alucard pfp
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have a good night my g
 
Anyway, on the Moltres vs Zapdos debate, I feel like Moltres belongs more in Sun or in Fat Balance, the former is fun, while the ladder helps alot in providing burns, which neutralizes physical attackers, allowing you to tank more, momentum, recovery and a way to blank check fairys and contact happy mons, but its reliance on boots means you have to take the game slower and more methodical if you want hazards off and / or boots intact

Zapdos on the other hand goes better in Rain and Bulky Offense, rain for obvious reasons, and BO because Static allows hax and slow mons to potentially out speed key mons, and zapdos doesn't have a quad SR weakness, so you can go more on the wild against a different type of mons, hammy for example (ant if you're reading this im sorry) has water stab, which drowns moltres, yet zapdos can stay in and hax it out

Also, I wanna mention Articuno for one single reason

+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 328-387 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

I once lost a match because I got overconfident and SB instead of Make it Rain "fuck it, its gonna kill anyway" and then I got haze´d, do not repeat the same mistakes as I did

Srn edit: deleted parts quoting deleted post
 
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Lemingue said:
:moltres: vs :zapdos:
With the rise of moltres, wanted to do a fun exercise and compare these two. This is mostly from watching plays and trying it out/fighting against it, so it might not be the most correct analysis ever, but I wanted to try it out anyway

Offensive usage

Zapdos is a great offensive tool, especially but not exclusively in rain teams. There's not a lot in the tier that resists the thunder/hurricane combo, and it keeps momentum alive with unstoppable volt switches. Outside of rain, hurricane and heat wave are still great. Heat wave in specific is a great tool vs kingambit, who can survive one hit and threatens to ohko it depending on supreme overlord stacks or put it on sucker punch mindgames. Hurricane makes tusk volt switch blocking almost unviable, and its good typing means even without bulk investiment it can still survive vs higher threats like valiant, sneasler, zama.
It does forego thunder wave and some sort of speed control for its team, but the pokemon it can nail down make it worth it and static helps with punishing attackers, even turning checks into winnable matches if unreliable.

Compared to bulkier sets though, its easier to nail down and while I did say the typing helps it keep some of that defensive profile, it doesn't like getting hit by nukes like gholdengo, specs pult, pyro ball etc, and gets chipped faster/needs to click roost more often. Ting Lu, lando and sandy shocks can stop it and without the bulk, the latter two may threaten to ko it or force it to switch out. Glowking is also a great stop to it.

I haven't seen a lot of offensive Moltres, so I can't talk about it in depth. I think it has a lot of potential and moltres hasn't been fully explored yet, but having no equivalent of rain enabling and competition with cinder which provides hazard control is an issue. If anyone has any experience with it though let me know!

Defensive usage

I'm starting with Moltres since I talked too much about zapdos LOL.

Moltres, just like zapdos, has a great defensive profile vs a lot of the offensive threats right now. Flame body is an incredible ability, in quite a few situations even better than static. While zapdos without heat wave can be picked apart by gambit, which doesn't like thunder wave but doesn't get super bothered by it, moltres immediately threatens it to get burned, and doesn't allow for a sword dance equalizer by forcing it out immediately. Similar situation with valiant, tusk, sneasler, dnite etc. It can run wow if it wants a consistent crippling too, but just the threat of flame body forces a lot of switches in the moltres player favor, which zapdos doesn't force as much

A lot of the mons it has good matchups against tend to overlap with zapdos, but stuff like resisting valiant/enamorus moonblast, ghold make it rain and the fact it doesn't have to rely on hurricane for some matchups is really good. It toasts corvi resisting both cinder pyro but also the uturn makes it great at helping keep spikes up/open up the path to get spikes up
U-turn, while not dealing the same amount of damage like zapdos, still makes it a good pivot that doesn't get stopped by ting lu.

It also has issues that overlap with zapdos, but also some issues exclusive: the typing, while great for a lot of things, is scared of gren and h-samu, which zapdos can threaten easily. It struggles harder with garg, especially tera water, and doesn't like pult thunderbolt.
It has lower speed, and has some of its bulk benefits cut by the fact it will often be hit first, roosting is trickier, and is more scared of 2hkos/3hkos than zapdos in certain situations. While running hurricane, it still hates rain teams (for obvious reasons lol) and is a bad mu against them.

What do you guys prefer to use? which teams fit each better?
Please let me know if I missed anything, got anything wrong etc.
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I think the main truth about Zapdos Vs Moltres is that The Usage of Moltres is more about it being anti-meta, it serves as a good way to soft check some physical attackers in the same way zapdos does but it also checks some spooky special mons like iron valiant, gholdengo and enamorus.

As a defensive asset it is a lot better than Zapdos in the current meta, but I believe mainly this is because most teams have not yet adapted to Moltres as a presence, While Moltres is Anti-Meta I would say Zapdos is the meta, Flying + Electric stab is a lot more threatening than fire + flying stab. Personally I believe long term it will be very hard for Moltres to come into the meta as an offensive presence as compared to Zapdos who is a wonderful asset on Rain and also can support very strong voltturn cores.

I also Disagree with you on the Moltres and Zapdos VS kingambit or at least with your phrasing of picked apart, Kingambit does not want to ever swap into zapdos or try and damage it early game, Offensive Zapdos 2hkos with Thunderbolt and Defensive threatens it strongly with either t-wave, discharge or static all threatening potential paras or 2hkos it with heat-wave. I think you are really underestimating the potential turn loss static gives which is vital for gambit who needs every single turn much more than some other mons. While Moltres does threaten it with more damage the MU is largely the same of both being checks who can still die because cheap gambit has no counter

Personally I believe Moltres is just an anti-meta fad and while in this meta specifically it will remain relevant due to being a check vs strong threats, I think it is likely that once the dlcs drop that it is very plausible that Moltres vanishes from the meta, either as teams adapt or the mons within the Meta itself changes.

I think ultimately it is much easier to get zapdos on the field and for it to contribute vs pretty much any enemy team comp compared to moltres who while it is very good at providing moderate pressure and checking stuff it feels like it can be way harder to get onto the field at times, It also feels so bad when it gets knocked off which will happen when you are trying to deal with stuff like Valiant and GT. I use Zapdos on a lot of my teams as I don't believe it is Zapdos who competes with Moltres for a slot but rather Glowking.

At least in my experience for building Balance/BO, Zapdos just fits super fantastically with Glowking, both can threaten status while providing defensive utility and strong pivoting, while it is never a bad idea to double up on checks to iron val, enam and so on I find that I am never unhappy in the MU vs those strong mons moltres checks if instead I am running Glowking Zapdos.

Moltres is a super cool thing to see gaining traction however, I just personally do not believe it will become a main stay as it provides an Anti-meta niche rather than a meta niche, also I have my personal doubts that offensive Moltres will gain traction as it seems very one-note and will struggle infinitely harder to make progress vs Balance Staples such as Garg and Glowking

(also fuck moltres for making me have to run blaze rather than libero on my Cinderace)
 
1LDK said:
[makes enemies with the community]"
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if u really think u can get "enemies" online u probably need to turn off your phone and leave it for a week, AT LEAST

1LDK said:
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 328-387 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
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irrelevant calc and he does not have something to punish contact moves like static or flame body + no status move
 
Morkal said:
I do have to say though in regards to your comment about pure Bug-type being bad; pure Bug resists both of Tusks's STABS (Ground/Fighting) along with Grass.
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more important that that, i would think (because flying does the same but better), is resisting tusk's stabs while also not being weak to ice spinner.

the problem with pure bug isn't that the typing is inherently unviable, it's that the mons that wind up with the typing tend to be early-game low-bst garbage that you really need to try hard to squeeze some utility out of. this is partially also a design issue because the bug-type design process is "take an arthropod and slap on a secondary typing that aesthetically fits", so not many fully evolved pure bugs even exist
 
Ryomathekillers said:
I also Disagree with you on the Moltres and Zapdos VS kingambit or at least with your phrasing of picked apart, Kingambit does not want to ever swap into zapdos or try and damage it early game, Offensive Zapdos 2hkos with Thunderbolt and Defensive threatens it strongly with either t-wave, discharge or static all threatening potential paras or 2hkos it with heat-wave. I think you are really underestimating the potential turn loss static gives which is vital for gambit who needs every single turn much more than some other mons. While Moltres does threaten it with more damage the MU is largely the same of both being checks who can still die because cheap gambit has no counter
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Nah this is a fair point. I think its bias from Me Personally not having as many issues w going around paralysis vs burn on gambit, but it's true that especially as a late game cleaner paralysis can make or break your win.

Tysm for the reply, I didn't consider glowking and zapdos competing for a slot, I just always imagined the two being used together as a defensive core than fighting for a space lol
 
Napoli Burns said:
irrelevant calc and he does not have something to punish contact moves like static or flame body + no status move
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You and I know both this is a disingenuous comment. If you read the context you’d notice that it wasn’t a gigantic defense on “oh, actually Articuno is good,” it was a “I got called out by Articuno once, here’s a silly little addendum.” It has minimal metagame impact, I agree with that, but he never said it did.
 
Athyestic said:
disingenuous comment
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that calc does mean nothing, i prefer to see a realistic calc that can recreate an ingame scenario, like the damage of specs draco meteor of pult on the switch and see if i am forced to roost or i am free to use uturn or freeze dry with articuno; doing the specs draco calc require the SAME amount of time

otherwise is theorymon like the guy who says kricketune can counter tusk
 
Napoli Burns said:
that calc does mean nothing, i prefer to see a realistic calc that can recreate an ingame scenario, like the damage of specs draco meteor of pult on the switch and see if i am forced to roost or i am free to use uturn or freeze dry with articuno; doing the specs draco calc require the SAME amount of time

otherwise is theorymon like the guy who says kricketune can counter tusk
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But that’s not what I’m saying. Are you actually cherry-picking those two words or are you that incompetent that you can take a post that’s about “Here’s a time I got called out by something, doesn’t mean it’s good but it’s kind of funny” and make it “Irrelevant calc, bad theorymon.”
on a more fun note: I might write up something quick on DuskRoc later. That mon is horrifically strong with Tera Fighting Close Combat, and I’ve had a lot of fun with it.
 
my take on zapdos vs moltres is that moltres will fall out of favor the moment people start running more rock moves

the fact that they aren't showcases that moltres, while good, isn't good enough to have dedicated counterplay in the builder like taking a moveslot

zapdos on the other hand imo has had a lot more meta effects, and I've seen people use Tera Electric on physical Pokemon solely to stop Static / Discharge and setup on it. Because there are like no good Electric types besides Zapdos right now, the best answer to Electric/Flying is Zapdos.

speaking of if you want some anti moltres techs, Protean Life Orb Power Gem Meowscarada with no investment does pretty good against both of the birds on the switch in. Also no contact.

realistically not worth it but keep it in mind imo
 
ant4456 said:
my take on zapdos vs moltres is that moltres will fall out of favor the moment people start running more rock moves
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Outside Great Tusk sometimes running Head Smash... What Pokemon in the tier can afford to slot rock moves on?

ant4456 said:
the fact that they aren't showcases that moltres, while good, isn't good enough to have dedicated counterplay in the builder like taking a moveslot
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???

That people aren't running rock moves means it isn't good enough to have dedicated counterplay?? Nevermind GT which like I said, sometimes runs head smash BECAUSE of Moltres (and Zapdos), which shows it has influence.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
more important that that, i would think (because flying does the same but better), is resisting tusk's stabs while also not being weak to ice spinner.

the problem with pure bug isn't that the typing is inherently unviable, it's that the mons that wind up with the typing tend to be early-game low-bst garbage that you really need to try hard to squeeze some utility out of. this is partially also a design issue because the bug-type design process is "take an arthropod and slap on a secondary typing that aesthetically fits", so not many fully evolved pure bugs even exist
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Yeah, it's this. The people who think Arceus-Bug wouldn't be far too much for OU are crazy, as well. It's still a 120/120/120 mon, with reliable recovery and more than enough offensive options to mix with its 150/100 Bug move.

Or, you know, it could just ignore that move entirely.

Bug is a fine defensive type, with two very common resists & an oddly useful third, but a terrible offensive one. If they ever actually made a pure bug that played to Bug's strengths, it'd definitely be used.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
it really speaks volumes about how much the meta has shifted that people are starting to forget about the very existence of lando-t
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speaking of to answer the question

great tusk (barely ever does, be for fucking real)
sneasler
ursaluna
ting lu
dragonite
meowscarada
garchomp
glimmora

sure not all of these have crazy good free moveslots but like some of these mons would really love to not get immediately walled / get burned on contact moves

except they dont care because every team since the meta's inception is already fine at checking moltres

because it has offensive utility. flamethrower to who? hurricane ig? uninvested because bulk? physical fire move to not lose to cm enam anyways?

zapdos hits a lot and can afford to run more speed making it a more overall rounded pokemon

straight walling pokemon will never be enough, you have to be able to do shit afterwards
 
SpritePony

I'd say the biggest difference between a Morkoal "Look at this shitmon" post and your post about Sliggoo is how it's structured and supported. Morkoal identifies a specific thing that a low tier mon has going for it (Spidops and Banded Stakeout First Impression being a nuke) then builds a set around it, finding a way to make it function - it's not good, he doesn't pretend it's good, but you can slot it into your team and it (might) do work. Morkoal also identifies a few teammates and gives a brief description of how to use the mon that will actually get use out of it.

Your Sliggoo post was, "This mon is incredibly bulky" and ended there. The bulk is nice - but what does it accomplish once it's on the field? No phasing, no hazards, can't PP stall due to limited rain turns, no status moves, no viable setup options (it has Curse, but a very low attack + lacks powerful moves to leverage it), the best you can do is lob middling-strong attacks with a 30% chance to poison or paralyze while spending rain turns.

You've got the first half - you identified a mon with a specific strength. You lacked the second half - showing how that mon's traits can help a team win.
 
RE: morkal post
The quality of the content that Morkal posts is infinitely higher than most of them here. With that said, its popularity detracts from actual metagame discussion because the forum becomes 2 pages of pseudo-intellectual discussion on Kriketune (a la the previous Sligoo discussion) or just people fanboying over Morkal. I think exploring more niche options (e.g. B-, C+, C Pokemon) is fruitful in helping people build a bit more creatively, but promoting absolute shitmons generates regressive discussion.

RE: Moltres vs. Zapdos
They're equally bulky, but I'd much prefer the Paralysis proc than the Burn proc. Lifesaver on BO or Offense compositions. I'd much rather have a Speed-hindered Pokemon than a burned Pokemon. Moltres' main draw is that its typing combo allows it to check some other top threats in the metagame, most notably IVal.
 
ant4456 said:
great tusk (barely ever does, be for fucking real)
sneasler
ursaluna
ting lu
dragonite
meowscarada
garchomp
glimmora
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Watch WCOP. Great Tusk sometimes, not terribly often, but sometimes runs head smash.

Sneasler is not running rock coverage.
Ursaluna does better with facade than rock coverage, is slower and isn't even something Moltres is checking normally (but can in a pinch).
Ting Lu doesn't always run rock coverage, and doesn't exactly have the easiest time fitting it anyways. After spikes and EQ, it often wants whirlwind to avoid being set up fodder, rest to shrug status and stay alive, and ruination to avoid passivity.
Where is Dragonite fitting rock coverage? It already has somewhat frustrating moveslot issues.
Meowscarada? All it gets is power gem. And no, you're not running that as viable.

Glimmora is not something Moltres ie even checking or facing 1v1 so dont know why you brought it up. And Garchomp is niche as fuck wnd barely relevant anymore.

ant4456 said:
sure not all of these have crazy good free moveslots but like some of these mons would really love to not get immediately walled / get burned on contact moves

except they dont care because every team since the meta's inception is already fine at checking moltres
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It's not as simple as not wanting to be walled. For most of what you listed, you have to give up some important moveslot for a move you won't be clicking in most other match ups. Mewning Moltres did its job anyways just by existing.

I feel like you're not listening. Moltres isn't an offensive threat you check necessarily. It's a defensive mon that blanket checks a list of relevant threats.

ant4456 said:
because it has offensive utility. flamethrower to who? hurricane ig? uninvested because bulk? physical fire move to not lose to cm enam anyways?
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Respectfully, you don't seem familiar as to why Moltres even rose in the first place. I'd recommend watching WCOP replays to see where it's putting in work. But I also don't understand why you seem to have this impression as if Moltres is some niche mon that's not great.

ant4456 said:
straight walling pokemon will never be enough, you have to be able to do shit afterwards
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Good thing it does
 
ant4456 said:
because it has offensive utility. flamethrower to who? hurricane ig? uninvested because bulk? physical fire move to not lose to cm enam anyways?
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I would run a lil bit of SpA investment with Molt, 24 SpA EVs so that Flamethrower does 25% min to +2 Enam so it can’t click Sub after 2 Calm Minds.

24 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 73-87 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

You can also pivot with U-Turn into something that can outspeed and threaten Enam such as Tpunch Meow or offensive Cinder.

Alternatively you can run Flare Blitz over Flamethrower to 2HKO Enam

0 Atk Moltres Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 174-205 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flare Blitz also has the benefit of hitting Glowking and Ghold harder.

0 Atk Moltres Flare Blitz vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 270-320 (74.1 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

0 Atk Moltres Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 104 Def Slowking-Galar: 138-163 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Also if Ghold is max speed, that thing is fucking dead.

0 Atk Moltres Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 270-320 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

ant4456 said:
straight walling pokemon will never be enough, you have to be able to do shit afterwards
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And it does.

>Wisp threatens physically offensive threats
>Molt’s solid offenses means its Fire/Flying STAB still hits hard
>Can pivot with U-Turn, generating momentum on bulky waters and Glowking which is monumental with mons like Hoopa, Ting-Lu, Samu, or Meowscarada.

You said it needs to do something besides walling and it does, which is why it rose to OU in the first place.
 
Not going to quote both posts, but Morkal and Alternator thanks for the words. Took some time off from here to just do other stuff (and partly work on my computer... Having a dying machine and not many funds sucks :zonger: )

Morkal, it's neat to see you actually took a look at my small Bisharp deal. My entire goal with that was to try and get people to think about what Bisharp could bring to the table defensively that Kingambit being banned would've left open. (The most notable one being checking Pult. Bisharp will never offensively be Gambit, but it certainly has a unique defensive profile.)

Alternator, yeah, I know that bit. Admittedly I jumped the gun with it just because of the fact that I was :quagchamppogsire:ing so hard from seeing my Sliggoo put in so much work for me. Once I get more actual testing down (it was a goof around with that Rain team and screwing about with Sliggoo instead of Goodra), I feel like I could actually get something more solid down. K-Goodra feels like it may actually have a small Rain niche pre-DLC.
 
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