I'd note that number is kinda dramatically inflated by the Paradoxes, who make up about 10% of Gen IX's mons overall.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
I'd note that number is kinda dramatically inflated by the Paradoxes, who make up about 10% of Gen IX's mons overall.
There are a few fan projects out there that remake the RBY sprites for the GBA and I wish they'd done this for FRLG instead of some of the ones they used.
Alright, yes, a lot of the Gen I sprites are famously a bit off, so I wouldn't want them exactly reproduced in a lot of cases. There are some that look fine (Grimer, Butterfree, Cubone, Charmeleon, Rhydon) but a lot need some work to make them less cartoonish or off-model. But overall, the poses and positioning of these sprites beat out the dullness of the ones FRLG used by miles.
Wonder if anyone's done this for the GSC sprites too... (edit: found a couple of partial examples)
https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=258451
https://www.deviantart.com/elementalheroshadow2/art/Pokemon-Gold-Revamped-124612127
I'd still say they're fair to count alongside Regional forms or Cross-Gen Evos, since they are given distinct slots and stats/typings that change their playstyle significantly. The Past-Paradoxes also definitely vary their designs up a lot, Future toss up based on the Chrome and some cases like IV or Iron Bundles cannon
Great Tusk's design would honestly be perfectly suited to a Donphan evo, and it kinda annoys me that it's saddled to a group of Pokemon which have zero future-proofing and are impossible to divorce from the scenario of SV.
So are it's stats. If you went back in time a few years and went "This is Greatusk, the Ground/Fighting evolved form of Donphan" most people would probably believe you.
Also, stat-wise, not so much design-wise Iron Hands is similar for Hariyama.
Ah yes, the Mawile problem.
Why is it that mons that aren't fully evolved get these kinds of upgrades when they *really* could use an evolution?
I wonder how they'll handle the story of both DLCs. The Teal Mask working like IoA and being a side-story to the main game would be nice.
I don't see the Indigo Mask not being post-game, and going by what I remember of SV's post-game... It has a lot of room to work with.
Poor Donphan, once a counterpart to Ursaring now doomed to stay in the shadow of Ursaluna and Great tusk. Worst part is that unlike the megas where bad Mons at least had a time to shine; Donphan is doomed to have nothing because Great tusk only looks like donphan, and isn’t truly related to it like how Ursaluna brought relevancy to Ursaring or Mega Mawile to regular mawile
This kind of segways into an unpopular Opinion of my own: The Paradoxes, Megas, and Cross-Gen evos alike don't improve the previous Pokemon in any significant manner besides association with the design concept anyway. Literally the only 2 Pokemon that have ever benefitted from evolutions in their existing forms are Aipom being allowed into LC (before it became LC Ubers) and Porygon-2 by virtue of Eviolite a Gen later. Every other time the overlap is Fringe at best, as the two stages barely compete in the same environment while alternates/Megas often alter their playstyle to the point they end up in different tiers or don't play the same even in the same place.
Donphan and Iron Treads in SV UU are very similar in viability because Donphan having an ability, Ice Shard, and no Steel Typing presents some benefits despite its lower stat total, and these would be traits it has regardless of Treads existing. No one using Mawile is using it (in the tiers the Mega elevates to) because Mawile at base is improved by Mega Mawile existing, same to Charizard, Ursaring, Kingambit, Farigiraf.
Donphan's as much doomed to stay in GT's shadow as much as Ursaring is in Ursaluna's shadow, because Ursaring didn't suddenly become more viable, it now just went from "that NU mon" to "that NU mon that evolves into the UU/OU Trick Room Monster" the same way Donphan is "that UU Ground Type they based Great Tusk on"
Something that surprised me in SV so far is that they kinda let future Paradoxes "not have an ability" considering Pincurchin is a joke and noone would ever use it, whereas Torkoal has always been a solid VGC mon (when Groudon isn't around obv).
I am moderately surprised that they didn't try to buff it or introduce a new Electric Surge pokemon. Ofc tecnically the chance Tapu Koko comes back in DLC is probably 99% or more so at that point they will actually have an ability, though I do wonder if they have planned something for it in DLC1: they probably don't want that only one side of the paradoxes actually sees VGC usage. (The only future paradoxes that really saw usage are Iron Bundle and Iron Hands, and Iron Bundle has all but disappeared now with the extended pokedex)
Yeah, the paradoxes counting as separate mons give the impression that they just really wanted to get to the 1000 Pokemon milestone asap. Gholdengo is still amazing tho, my favorite Paldea mon
And speaking about Nemona, I'm not much of a fan tbh. Her personality really doesn't differ much from previous friendly rivals, and it doesn't help the League path is so barebones in terms of plot and characters (although I heard she gets some focus in postgame). The concept of a champion being your rival is very wasted potential bc gameplay wise she does the same thing near every prev rival has done. She could've spiced up her team variety every now and then since she already did her journey with other mons, heck she uses a Tauros in the game's opening, but nah she just sticks with the same mons every time. So I never feel she goes easy on me like the game is implying, but instead she's nowhere near as strong and innonative to begin with...
surprised you're implying paradox pokemon shouldn't be considered new entire pokemon when most of them are unique designs (yes, even the future ones, don't @ me) with new types, movepools, etc.
and not shit like wugtrio which is literally just miscolored diglett but not considered a paldean form because "realism"
and not shit like wugtrio which is literally just miscolored diglett but not considered a paldean form because "realism"
On the contrast, I would argue the value in the cross-gen evos is that they complete lines, allowing them to actually be on an even level that is worth using. No one cared about half the Johto lines until Gen IV (and now Legends/IX) starting giving evolutions en-masse to them, but now it's arguably one of the strongest generations because there's so much worth using among its number.
That's the problem with Megas and Paradoxes. They are locking Pokemon's worth behind association with short-lived gimmicks, and once those gimmicks are gone, so too does any real reason to use them. You can use Togekiss or Weavile endlessly generation after generation, but Lopunny and Mawile just went right back to being effectively junk filling slots in your PC.
Speaking of Wugtrio, Regional Fakes are an idiotic concept.
I know there's a lot of biological mumbo jumbo backing it up, but in practice, they're regional formes with a new name and ID.
Barring species clause, which shouldn't block regional formes to begin with, they're just a pointless mechanic.
I know there's a lot of biological mumbo jumbo backing it up, but in practice, they're regional formes with a new name and ID.
Barring species clause, which shouldn't block regional formes to begin with, they're just a pointless mechanic.
Convergent forms would be really cool if they leaned into why they're similar and why they're different. Falcons are parrots that ended up as a minmaxed hawk, crabs have shown up like 8 times IRL, almost every species that swims ends up with roughly the same body type...if they want to do a thing about Convergent Evolution, go for it. Why did the species converge? What remained the same, what's different?
Give us a convergent Flying/Fire bee that mimics Beedrill in order to hunt them, or a Normal that lives in the ocean and looks like Seaking but still has the statline of Raticate. Hell, do a throwback to the original finches, east side of Paldea gets C-Pidgeot, west side gets C-Swellow, both get the same level-up moves, a new ability that removes terrain, and a dex entry about eating Arboliva berries, with at most minimal sprite/stat changes.
Basically, I don't look at Wugtrio and think it tells us anything interesting about the world or history of Pokemon. It should, with them trying to make a big deal out of it.
It tells us that if you live in the ground full time you become a whack-a-mole.
To be fair, couldn’t the same be said about stuff like Misdrevious, Electabuzz, or Magmar. Sure those Mons are outclassed in alot of ways, especially by their evolutions, but they can at least evolve and get some kind of chance to shine because they can get stronger. Unlike Donphan or Mawile who can’t (Mega) evolve, and thus can’t have a way of getting out of any shadow.
Also, Eviolite. That's a direct buff.
For the likes of Donphan, that's certainly worth taking into consideration.
See, the fact that they do get an entire dex slot makes them substantially better as an idea than regular regionals to me. Regional forms may not add dex slots, but I believe they're accounted for when Game Freak is considering type balance for new Pokémon. To bring in another post:
I was a little disappointed that they didn't mention regionals too, since in my mind it's the same issue. It's kinda maybe not as bad when it's an entire evolution line, because then its usually more of a side-grade to the original (typically with a little more polish to stats, typing, and ability, though). But when it's a split evolution? That's just mean, because those new evolutions get access to the moves of the pre-evolution, regardless of how the Pokémon's concept changes when it evolves (thinking about Alolan Marowak and Exeggutor here).
Gen 8 added the lovely idea of regional forms that get new evolutions, but not the original line. It's at least a little acceptable with Obstagoon, but Mr. Rime can get all of the moves that Mime Jr. can transfer up from previous games. Even more frustrating to me is the inclusion of regional forms of Pokémon that were previously single-staged that get new evos, leaving the original in the dust. Galarian Farfetch'd at least has a new type and adjusted movepool, but White-stripe Basculin is just the same Pokémon! As the final bit of salt in the wound for me, most regional forms are added without any good explanation. Alola wasn't quite as bad with this (though Alolan Raichu is the biggest shrug of an explanation of the entire concept), but Galar and Hisui have regional variants of Pokémon that really don't have a reason to exist in their particular region over the originals (Galar especially).
All of this is for me to say: I believe many regional forms exist because Game Freak decided they wanted to update an old Pokémon concept but are too concerned with internal series consistency to change them in a meaningful way. Most of the others exist because they play off of the concept of an existing Pokémon, and for some reason they felt they needed to make these new designs regionals. They've retreaded concepts plenty of times before; very few regionals actually needed to be tied to an existing line to work. The regionals get publicity because they're new "forms," but said publicity ends up overshadowing the originals a lot.
Tl;dr: regional forms are a fun concept but are rarely necessary for whatever design they are working with to be successful.
Last edited:
I think opinions like these need to consider the symbolic value present in Pokemon as a whole, specifically in how we interact with it.
Consider like this, Pokemon, like many forms of fiction, is an entity reliant on symbolic value of presentation. Objectively speaking, all Pokemon are from a purely mechanical perspective are lines of numbers activating motions in a game script, but symbolically, they are presented as living creatures in a fictional world. These lines of numbers have visual and narrative presentation behind them which gives them meaningful worth from a holistic perspective, the belief that every entry in your PC is worth something, that every Pokemon you train and fight with are living creatures for your to value.
Consider this - why do so many players, myself include, resist or outright refuse to use Legendaries in battle? Speaking from a direct position of optimized play, the process is illogical, purposely handicapping yourself from using the actual numerically and mechanically strongest tools they have at their disposal. But from a symbolic position, the idea is entirely natural. Legendaries are in lore presented as these all-powerful mythological (and in some cases downright divine) creatures who exist above all else in the Pokemon world, and this turns lessens the symbolic worth of using them in battle. Even though quite a few a genuinely bad in actual battle (hi Articuno), they still feel like an effective cheating device, a method of play which demonstrates less honest achievement and thus less in the way of actual satisfaction in playing the game. (This, BTW, is what separates Pokemon from a game like YGO, which has no explicitly "tiers" of overt power, and anything that is considered broken is quickly sent to the Shadow Realm/banlist)
Let's face it, Gen I has aged a lot. The original games were not made with PvP in mind (I think Miyamoto pushed it on the team late in development?), and thus the lines were designed just as expressions of the game world, with usually bland kits that consisted mostly of just STAB moves and little else. Which was fine at the time, but as the franchise has progressed and the awareness of competitive Pokemon and high-level play has become a core part of the franchise's identity, the complementing paratext has altered the way in which new Pokemon have been designed to better accommodate such aspects, which has in turn formed a power creep in general design which has left many of the Kanto/Johto lines in the dust. For some like Gengar and Clefable, they have the expanded kits that they're able to interact with newer Pokemon easily, but for many, the only way which they can retain symbolic and mechanical value is through explicit upgrades. Hence the use of new evos and Regionals. New evos symbolically remove the "irrelevancy" of weaker lines by establishing a higher tier of power for them to take advantage of, and Regionals allow for the symbolic rehabilitation of outdated lines into something more mechanically interesting while keep the iconography which gives them worth.
TLDR; Make Amamola a Luvdisc evo, you cowards.
The fact that Iron Hands have managed to hold up despite the extended Pokédex speaks volume on how genuinely strong it is for Doubles despite being a Future Paradox, especially in a Trick Room heavy meta. Tapu Koko, if it returns, would only benefit it outside of Trick Room due fo Koko’s blistering Speed, but can help Iron Hands in non-TR teams.
Being an Electric physical Pokémon makes it’s accomplishment even more impressive. If a non-signature stronger physical Electric move exists and Iron Hands gets it, I don’t wanna imagine how devastating it would be.
I feel like some Yugioh players would disagree about "quickly" sending broken stuff to the banlist.
For something I can actually contribute though, I don't think the Symbolic importance of Legendary Pokemon is the sole reason people would refuse to use them. On the "roleplaying" aspect there's the angle that you probably have Pokemon well established in your team by then that you're already attached to and may simply not want to replace with another Pokemon, Legendary or Mundane, for that reason.
Then from a Numerical/Mechanical standpoint there are two things I would consider. The advantage of Legendary Pokemon can vary not just because of the mons but the games they're placed in (Dialga and Palkia are strong in Gen 4, but need a lot of leveling to be ready for the Elite Four and definitely are dangerous to go against Cynthia if not high level) if we're talking about whether using them is optimal. Conversely, some players may specifically want a challenge run (Nuzlockes, Monotype, minimum Battles, etc), and thus refuse the Legendary Pokemon mechanically because they make the challenge too easy, if they're allowed in the first place.
They're usually on par with the player's team when they're caught. They might not be an insta-win button like Emerald Rayquaza, but they still provide a massive advantage if added to the team asap.
Reading this and coming to the conclusion that I generally prefer when uber-level legendaries, even mascots, are confined to the postgame.
Partly I think it's because I've never much enjoyed the actual process of catching legendaries - even despite absolutely buzzing off the old events where you got to go to an island and encounter Mew or Deoxys or something, it's more the "everything else" that I like: the location, the mystery, the key items, the lore, the vibes. But also because the forced encounter with the powerful legendary nearly all games post-RS have (and especially the mandation that you catch them in later games) make it feel like you're being pressured into using them on your team. So many guides just openly tell you to use your legendary as a crutch for the Elite Four, which I personally hate doing. BW slips by on a technicality because you literally catch it in time for the last two fights of the game and still aren't forced to use it; XY took this concept and did it worse in every way.
But B2W2's way of doing things is cool. (God, when am I going to play all of Gen V again?) Obviously everyone appreciated Rayquaza being catchable in Emerald, but it didn't need to be; just have it only return to Sky Pillar once you beat the Elite Four. It's not difficult.
And GS make Ho-oh and Lugia optional. It's genuinely one of the things I find most refreshing about replaying the Gen II games, and while I don't hate HGSS's approach because it's so low-stakes and I appreciate it purely for being a novel change from the usual world-ending plot that was getting quite tired by then, I'm not crazy about it.
Taking into account the fact that Crystal basically forces you to catch it (well, it doesn't but you are heavily pushed into encountering it) the only mascot legendary you can catch pre-E4 that isn't totally busted is Suicune. I used it on my team for a while when I first played Crystal and honestly it's very so-so. It fits the right balance - it's strong but not overly so, it's tanky but not excessively fast, and it doesn't learn powerful enough moves to cleave through enemies like a cover legend would. Actually, its movepool in GSC is crap; it learns Hydro Pump at level 71 which is by far and away its best move but that's long after the main story will be over. It's a point in favour of making non-uber legendaries the game mascot for once.
Partly I think it's because I've never much enjoyed the actual process of catching legendaries - even despite absolutely buzzing off the old events where you got to go to an island and encounter Mew or Deoxys or something, it's more the "everything else" that I like: the location, the mystery, the key items, the lore, the vibes. But also because the forced encounter with the powerful legendary nearly all games post-RS have (and especially the mandation that you catch them in later games) make it feel like you're being pressured into using them on your team. So many guides just openly tell you to use your legendary as a crutch for the Elite Four, which I personally hate doing. BW slips by on a technicality because you literally catch it in time for the last two fights of the game and still aren't forced to use it; XY took this concept and did it worse in every way.
But B2W2's way of doing things is cool. (God, when am I going to play all of Gen V again?) Obviously everyone appreciated Rayquaza being catchable in Emerald, but it didn't need to be; just have it only return to Sky Pillar once you beat the Elite Four. It's not difficult.
And GS make Ho-oh and Lugia optional. It's genuinely one of the things I find most refreshing about replaying the Gen II games, and while I don't hate HGSS's approach because it's so low-stakes and I appreciate it purely for being a novel change from the usual world-ending plot that was getting quite tired by then, I'm not crazy about it.
Taking into account the fact that Crystal basically forces you to catch it (well, it doesn't but you are heavily pushed into encountering it) the only mascot legendary you can catch pre-E4 that isn't totally busted is Suicune. I used it on my team for a while when I first played Crystal and honestly it's very so-so. It fits the right balance - it's strong but not overly so, it's tanky but not excessively fast, and it doesn't learn powerful enough moves to cleave through enemies like a cover legend would. Actually, its movepool in GSC is crap; it learns Hydro Pump at level 71 which is by far and away its best move but that's long after the main story will be over. It's a point in favour of making non-uber legendaries the game mascot for once.
I like how Hisuian Samurott is so much better than the original.
Just moving from Unova to GOAT Region Sinnoh made it better
Just moving from Unova to GOAT Region Sinnoh made it better