Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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hidin said:
im still mad at this bc setsu whooped my ass with this on ladder but besides that this mons a freak man. tail glow + surf + dgleam + filler is very nutty and not hard to pilot and win with, other sets like take heart resttalk are p bad and imo is kinda a waste of the mon that manaphy can be. waiting until someone cooks rain with this tho but unfort veil is everywhere on the planet atm
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I did make a rain team with manaphy, i played about 16 games all around 1400-1500 range(final rating i got was 1535) climbed from 1380 lost 5 games(4 with an actual user who knows how to use alolan ninetales, 1 to walking wake(my manaphy died so had nothing to counter wake)) Here is the team I used(with short detail on each member):

https://pokepast.es/d68ed01cb105c5e2

starting with :pelipper:
obviously to setup rain, u turn to absorb damage and switch,roost for recovery, knock for utility, surf for some dmg.

:zapdos: is good to take on other electric types, defeats tusk with hurricane, t-wave for utility and u-turn over volt switch because of so many ground types, tera poison lets it counter enamorus, ironval, and makes it immune to toxic.

:basculegion: hits many things very hard and flip turn helps it keep momentum on its resists, psychic fang is for water absorb clodsire, pex and other poison types.

:greninja: is there to clean everything left, tera grass over tera water solely to tank a grassy glide from rilla and ko it with ice beam(it has to be weakened tho, this works if you can predict rilla switching in or if it is weakened by hazard) hydro pump or surf depends on you.

:kingambit: is there for gambit things

and finally,
:manaphy: is there to switch in on resists or status moves, set up, tera grass against rilla or rotom-w and go on the rampage, try keeping it above 50% health before rain runs out.(forgot to mention the nature in pokepaste but its timid nature)

unfortunately, this team is weak to walking wake(tho not completely dead to it), and a-ninetales(try to keep your pelipper alive against it) i won against 4 a-ninetales and lost against 4, sadly i didn't save any such replays but you got to either kill ninetales early or switch pelipper before it sets up veil.
 
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honestly an atales ban might be better than a bax ban, this shit facilitates bax + HO too well. Pre DLC our best hail setters were glowking and some even ran aboma. Now we have a mon that fits hail + screens without being shit like abomasnow. Banning light clay would just nerf HO without tackling bax.
 
(Before you read this post A9 means Alola Ninetales, A Tales is too long of an abbreviation)

So I went on to ladder with the A9 Bax Manaph structures and holy shit why am I facing a mirror every game. Hail is definitely the most dominant and consistent playstyle right now, and as expected A9 has pushed Baxcalibur over the edge. I haven't seen two mons as built for each other as these two (ok maybe Hamurott + Gholdengo ties). The Snow Defense buff is definitely very impactful on a game to game basis for A9, there's a lot of stuff A9 can just stay in on and Veil up. I've been pairing it with Scarf Healing Wish Enamorus and that allows me to be a lot reckless with it, setting of Veil vs mons that severely threaten it. I've been using DD Bax, haven't experimented with SD + Scale Shot, but DD Bax is just as absurd with Veil support. It's got very easy switchins, absurd bulk makes it very hard to force out, and revenging it is a pointless exercise with Tera, even if Veil runs out. You don't HDB imo, Leftovers + Ice Body gives it incredible longevity even with Rocks up. I already wanted this mon gone pre DLC and this is just the final nail in the coffin. Ban Bax.

Manaphy is very absurd. I don't think Take Heart is really all that worth it, the immediate game ending potential of Tail Glow is too much to pass up on. Surf + Dazzling Gleam + filler gives you all the moves you need. Imo Timid with enough speed to outspeed Adamant/Rash Garchomp is definitely the way to go, the rest can be dumped into bulk. Tera allows it to set up Tail Glow on anything with any Tera of your choosing, be it Ogerpon or Zapdos. Manaph + Bax is impossible to beat defensively and it's pretty close to impossible to beat offensively with A9's excellent support.

I am highly opposed to banning A9, imo it's support isn't that strong to break every set up sweeper in the game. Baxcalibur's Ice Body + Defense boost isn't replicable and neither is Manaphy's Tail Glow + Tera combination. A9 has been doing the same thing since the last two gens and it was fine then, I highly doubt that Snow boost is enough to make it the clear cut offender of the Veil squad. I also highly doubt that Veil will have nearly as much gamebreaking effect with sweepers other than those two.

I think Baxcalibur and Manaphy should be put on the radar and be subject to a council vote after a week, and the week's time is to allow any possible reasonable counterplay to float to the surface (Cinder snatching screens isn't nearly enough, a smart Hail player will just account for situations where a screen snatch is possible, not to mention Cinder can't threaten Manaph much nor stop a set up Bax) . A9 is not the culprit.
 
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Deathbringer7 said:
(Before you read this post A9 means Alola Ninetales, A Tales is too long of an abbreviation)

So I went on to ladder with the A9 Bax Manaph structures and holy shit why am I facing a mirror every game. Hail is definitely the most dominant and consistent playstyle right now, and as expected A9 has pushed Baxcalibur over the edge. I haven't seen two mons as built for each other as these two (ok maybe Hamurott + Gholdengo ties). The Snow Defense buff is definitely very impactful on a game to game basis for A9, there's a lot of stuff A9 can just stay in on and Veil up. I've been pairing it with Scarf Healing Wish Enamorus and that allows me to be a lot reckless with it, setting of Veil vs mons that severely threaten it. I've been using DD Bax, haven't experimented with SD + Scale Shot, but DD Bax is just as absurd with Veil support. It's got very easy switchins, absurd bulk makes it very hard to force out, and revenging it is a pointless exercise with Tera, even if Veil runs out. You don't HDB imo, Leftovers + Ice Body gives it incredible longevity even with Rocks up. I already wanted this mon gone pre DLC and this is just the final nail in the coffin. Ban Bax.

Manaphy is very absurd. I don't think Take Heart is really all that worth it, the immediate game ending potential of Tail Glow is too much to pass up on. Surf + Dazzling Gleam + filler gives you all the moves you need. Imo Timid with enough speed to outspeed Adamant/Rash Garchomp is definitely the way to go, the rest can be dumped into bulk. Tera allows it to set up Tail Glow on anything with any Tera of your choosing, be it Ogerpon or Zapdos. Manaph + Bax is impossible to beat defensively and it's pretty close to impossible to beat offensively with A9's excellent support.

I am highly opposed to banning A9, imo it's support isn't that strong to break every set up sweeper in the game. Baxcalibur's Ice Body + Defense boost isn't replicable and neither is Manaphy's Tail Glow + Tera combination. A9 has been doing the same thing since the last two gens and it was fine then, I highly doubt that Snow boost is enough to make it the clear cut offender of the Veil squad. I also highly doubt that Veil will have nearly as much gamebreaking effect with sweepers other than those two.

I think Baxcalibur and Manaphy should be put on the radar and be subject to a council vote after a week, and the week's time is to allow any possible reasonable counterplay to float to the surface (Cinder snatching screens isn't nearly enough, a smart Hail player will just account for situations where a screen snatch is possible, not to mention Cinder can't threaten Manaph much nor stop a set up Bax) . A9 is not the culprit.
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Adding to this, this was the team I was using. It got me into the mid 1700s . Definitely a lot of room for improvement but hey it's a day 1 meta. All of our teams are gonna be shit.
Have fun OUers.
https://pokepast.es/b1189f8a961df833
 
gen 9 ox the fox hail copy: https://pokepast.es/ed270c0b2ce8e760

same concept with double removal, now we have alola sandslash which is kinda bad tbh but actually fills a role since spin is so rare. Sandslash forces defensive play with SD and thus can spin for free. Tera water to beat air balloon ghold, or just crash the ghold so bax can sweep later. AV torn coz it's sick. Specs volc can probs be switched for walking wake.

replays
rain cteam
lucky game but sandslash sweeps
 
Deathbringer7 said:
A9 has been doing the same thing since the last two gens and it was fine then, I highly doubt that Snow boost is enough to make it the clear cut offender of the Veil squad. I also highly doubt that Veil will have nearly as much gamebreaking effect with sweepers other than those two.
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I just want to say that I do very much agree with your post as a whole, but Snow is a significant boost.

4 Atk Donphan Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem with an ally's Aurora Veil: 171-202 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Ice Body recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 118-139 (31.8 - 37.4%) -- 60.6% chance to 4HKO after Ice Body recovery and Leftovers recovery

Despite how weak it seemed, Snow is actually a really strong weather for mons that have anything resembling native bulk.
 
Rootb said:
I just want to say that I do very much agree with your post as a whole, but Snow is a significant boost.

4 Atk Donphan Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem with an ally's Aurora Veil: 171-202 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Ice Body recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 118-139 (31.8 - 37.4%) -- 60.6% chance to 4HKO after Ice Body recovery and Leftovers recovery

Despite how weak it seemed, Snow is actually a really strong weather for mons that have anything resembling native bulk.
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I should clarify that I was talking about A9 getting the snow boost for itself in that sentence. I completely agree that the snow is part of what makes Baxcalibur a broken sweeper, but it's worth noting that there probably will not be another sweeper that can abuse A9's snow and veil antics as well as Baxcalibur. So A9 getting the snow boost for itself, while of course a sizeable buff for itself as it can produce veils more easily , probably isn't a big enough buff for A9 to be banned instead of Baxcalibur.
 
Shurtugal said:
why is shaymin-sky ubers? did the ou council post the initial banlist and reasoning yet for the new dlc meta? this mon has been banned since dpp ou but the power level of the meta has greatly shifted since Gen 4. not saying shaymin-sky would or wouldn't be broken because honestly idk that's why I wanted to read a council statement for initial banlist reasons. it's just a shame we never get to play & try it in the new tiers, speed creep/power level of the new meta should be able to handle it, but maybe it'd be too strong with tera I'm not sure. anyways if someone could link me to the council reason for not starting it in OU that would be cool
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It would be too strong with Tera indeed. But even without it, it has Serene Grace and enormous Speed. If it had just STAB Moves, it would be fine, but it does get some coverage such as Earth Power. Right now, it clearly doesn't belong to OU, if it either loses movepool or Serene Grace, it could be tested in a future gen.
 
Just ban Ninetales-Alola and ban Manaphy. And eventually retest Volcarona and suspect Baxcalibur if needed.
Ninetales-Alola + Baxcalibur is absurd but I think the main problem its Ninetales-Alola, even if Bax is banned before Ninetales-A won't help with this meta, Kingambit will become more threating under Aurora Veil and Volcarona if eventually gets unbanned will be broken again under Aurora Veil.

Another option is banning Baxcalibur + banning Light Clay but allowing Ninetales-Alola in the tier but I like 1st more than this one.

Overall I should say Aurora Veil/Light Clay exacerbates the Kingambit/Bax/Volcarona/Valiant/any other Tera abuser + Terastallization problematic. You can't expect to allow everything in the tier and have a balance and healthy tier.
 
I might be missing something, but what's made Walking Wake more broken than pre-DLC1? The arguments I read all center around Hydro Steam, "doesn't matter if Veil is up", etc., which all echo pre-Home arguments when Wake first dropped.

I also had a chance to retrofit my Screens team with ATales and SD + Scale Shot Bax. Aurora Veil -> Hypnosis/Encore sequence just makes bringing in any sweeper 500 times easier than with Grimm or Pult. Bax is probably the biggest offender here because of the 1.5x Defense boost under snow under Screens. in the 5 test matches I ran (not a large sample I know), I could achieve +4 Atk pretty easily.

I'm not one to advocate banning anything this early, but Bax is the biggest metagame offender right now. I can see an argument for banning ATales if its consistency of getting screens up continues even after action on Bax (Baxtion) occurs. A Light Clay ban, like every instance before DLC, does not make sense as its the abusers and specific setters, not the playstyle as a whole, that are causing inbalance.
 
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Skymin flinch hax is among one of the most infuriating things in existence and I don't think we should entertain it coming back. The mon got a unanimous public ban vote back in the day for a reason and nothing has functionally changed for it.
 
Jirachi is pretty beast. Love it on rain for thunder, iron head, rocks and healing wish for wave crashers. With 5 other checks can kinda help with bax and can kill ninetales.
 
Bakugames said:
Atales pushing mons that were already bordeline doesnt seem like an argument for atales ban, rather that it broke the camels back on the power level of these threats.
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exactly, it's the thing that pushes bax over the edge imo. scale shot without atales in the meta would be managable bcoz of the fairies we have (clef, iron valiant, azu) and slower teams ofc have counterplay in dozo. Offenses can usually outoffense bax but with atales support in screens + def boost offenses cant do that anymore.

Obviously bax can probably tera and beat you on MU, but without the snow or screens defensive boosts you can probably just wear bax down by attacking it and picking it off with priority.

tl;dr IMO the meta would be better with atales gone since it would make it far more managable to deal with bax with offensive teams.
 
DiscoDucky said:
I might be missing something, but what's made Walking Wake more broken than pre-DLC1? The arguments I read all center around Hydro Steam, "doesn't matter if Veil is up", etc., which all echo pre-Home arguments when Wake first dropped.
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Access to Flip Turn basically since now it can pivot but I agree it def should be suspected not quickbanned.

Also quickban Bax, a decent snow setter+Scale Shot has pushed it over the edge. For all those who think Alolan Ninetales or Aurora Veil is the issue, I’d argue that Bax was near broken beforehand and honestly Scale Shot alone might have been enough to break it since it gives SD sets a way to boost speed. If Ninetales + Aurora Veil is still causing issues once Bax is gone then we can look into it, but tbh I think it’ll be fine, if very good.
We still need to get rid of Kingambit as well, and Tera is probably worth another look, but otherwise I think the DLC mons will provide some much needed stability to the meta.
 
Hot take: I think blood moon Ursaluna will have a significant presence in UU, and maybe even OU. Moonlight is great recovery, it’s signature mice is great, and calm mind is a good boosting move
 
As a terrible low ladder player, here are my thoughts after loading up AVeil Baxcalibur:
Haven’t seen many Baxcalibur, surprisingly. Using it feels pretty good though.

Cirno (Baxcalibur) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Glaive Rush
- Icicle Crash
Not using Scale Shot on this set because I like it on Garchomp better. Garchomp also just feels good.

I’ve only used one Gliscor set so far and it feels good using it, man. Gliscor can just come onto Corv or other things that can’t kill it very well, set up swords dances and sweep. Tera Fire allows you to eat the Ice moves that are running around the meta and also tank Fire Ogrepon’s Ivy Cudgel. Despite running a snow team, Gliscor seems like it’s doing the most work.

Horseshoe (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Dual Wingbeat
- Protect
 
So glad Gambit wasn't banned, helps deal with a lot of the janky stuff. Balloon Gambit really helps put Bax in its place.

So glad Mandibuzz is back. People who are not running this thing are missing out on a defog alternative that can stand up to Gholdengo somewhat and pivot extremely well.
 
Wouldn't ttar be good in this meta? It can switch in on A-Tales to stop it from using Aurora Veil, and A-Tales can barely do anything in return, even if it were to run maximum offense investment for some reason.

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 55-66 (16.1 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Ninetales-Alola Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 79-94 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 72% chance to 4HKO

And if the ttar has any kind of bulk investment, it really just does almost nothing:

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 55-66 (13.6 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Ninetales-Alola Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 79-94 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
 
Ninetales-A should probably be slotting in Snowscape for incoming opposing weather setters. It was fairly standard last generation on veil teams for this purpose. Allows you to guarantee the snow & get veil, or reset rain after you force Pelipper to switch out.

Bonus flex points if you go for the double Snowscape as they switch back to Pelipper.
 
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