Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Finchinator said:
It received more support than things like Magearna, Chien-Pao, and other quickbans in the survey, and idt someone who isn’t privy to the full results can comment like this in good faith.
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I didn't see the leaked survey results until after I made that post. I am surprised it received more support than Chien-Pao. Nonetheless, if the community felt so strongly about it as to rate it higher than Magearna and Pao, then I suppose a quick ban vote was warranted, even if I don't agree with that assessment (of it being more overbearing than Chien-Pao / Magearna that is).

Regardless of semantics, I wanted Bax banned, so it is still a net positive imo.
 
Now that Bax is gone and the snow hype should somewhat die down I wanna shift the attention to other newly improved weather and drop this nasty rain team. Been laddering with it since the DLC dropped with decent success up to the 1800s. Barraskewda getting flip turn again made me remember how brutal that mon can be. The only thing is idk how much sense Scizor makes now because its niche is less necessary after the ban.
 
Finchinator said:
It received more support than things like Magearna, Chien-Pao, and other quickbans in the survey, and idt someone who isn’t privy to the full results can comment like this in good faith.
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Obviously when the survey results are in we'll have some more detailed numbers, but if Bax got more support than Chien-Pao (I'm assuming this was HOME Chien-Pao) that's really impressive, considering Pao got a 4.3 for the overall playerbase and a 4.6 for the qualified playerbase.

Like, I agree that it probably should've been banned and was in the 4-ish range myself, but I find it incredible that it managed numbers that high.
 
Tag365 said:
Is Skuntank ever going to get popular enough to become OverUsed? If so, how will it, and is it possible to accelerate it?
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i have serious doubts it will become popular enough to rise into the actual tier, but that's ok! usage statistics aren't a one-to-one map to viability. as morkal has shown us time and again, nearly any pokemon (even spidops) can carve out a niche for itself, however tiny.

besides, skuntank belongs in pu
Fenghuang said:
A gut gebentsht yor to baxcalibur, who is fucking gone from this tier.
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more like gut getbentsht yor, gottem
 
Avira said:
Gengar's paper-thin defenses and much lower speed matter a lot. It's not a bit bulkier as Darkrai has close to 50% more bulk on the physical side than Gengar does and has a typing that is better against the most common priority move in OU in Sucker Punch. Darkrai if dropped into OU would be the third-fastest Pokemon, which allows to beat a lot more than Gengar since many OU threats have more options for OHKOing Gengar than they do with Darkrai and are faster, such as Cinderace (Pyro Ball and also Sucker Punch if you can fit it), Choice Specs Dragapult (Shadow Ball and Draco Meteor whereas it can only OHKO Darkai with Draco Meteor), pre-transformation Battle Bond Greninja (Dark Pulse and Hydro Pump whereas none of its moves OHKO Darkrai), Meowscarada (Knock Off and Sucker Punch while it doesn't OHKO Darkrai with anything), and speed-boosting Walking Wake outside of sun (has a chance to OHKO Gengar with Hydro Steam whereas Darkrai lives). And as you yourself pointed, out, Dark Pulse is more spammable due to it having no immunities.

One of the bigger upsides Darkrai has over Gengar is that it beats Clodsire, the main special wall of OU, while Gengar outright loses to it.

To pretend that Gengar is even remotely comparable to Darkrai in performance is disingenuous or just outright wrong.
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I think comparing Darkrai to Gengar is far from a perfect comparison, but that there is some merit in it - hence, why my original post in response to yours is not disingenuous. I don't believe they would be similar in viability in OU; Gengar is unviable and if I had to guess I think Darkrai would be around an A-, but who knows since it's never been tested.

Also, your points about darkai's matchups with ace/pult/ninja/meow/clod are 1) Certainly good reasons for why it is better suited for OU than Gengar (and why my comparison b/w darkrai and gengar is a little flawed), but 2) Not direct proof it is broken and still technically theorymoning.

The point of my post was to show that the calcs you posted for Darkrai are about the same for Gengar because they have nearly an identical sp atk stat + movepool; furthermore, both are frail special sweepers. The significant advantages Darkrai has are it's speed (125 vs. 110), modestly better bulk, and defensive dark typing (notable resists to ghost/dark instead of weaknesses).

Now are these significant advantages enough to push it from unviable (Gengar) to broken (Darkrai)? Maybe, I don't know, but in my mind they are not enough to push it to "so unquestionably broken there is not even a need to test it", and that was my point in making the comparison to Gengar.
 
My thing is: what does Darkrai REALLY do that other Dark type mons can't? I'll wait. I don't think it's speed or bulk warrants it being a high tier Pokémon since, I assume, there are others that can do its job (and then some). At least tell me it gets Snarl. Maybe Choice Scarf + Snarl can be a thing. Otherwise, I can't think of anything useful it can do without it being able to take full advantage of Dark Void and/or Bad Dreams.
 
Pwndkthnx said:
My thing is: what does Darkrai REALLY do that other Dark type mons can't? I'll wait. I don't think it's speed or bulk warrants it being a high tier Pokémon since, I assume, there are others that can do its job (and then some). At least tell me it gets Snarl. Maybe Choice Scarf + Snarl can be a thing. Otherwise, I can't think of anything useful it can do without it being able to take full advantage of Dark Void and/or Bad Dreams.
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There's no shortage of posts in the thread detailing just how badly Darkrai's NP set (with or without Hypnosis, usually without) would rip OU open. No other Special Attacking Dark type in the tier is nearly as fast or as powerful.
 
So who takes bax role in veil teams now ? It’s a lot of viable or at least interesting. Manaphy and Hearthflame obviously split co-star duties now but I could see mons like Kommoo, Roaring moon, garchomp all getting a shot at beings one of the new top breakers
 
TH1N3 H4MM3R said:
would love if it gets an evolution down the line, poison/dark is such a badass typing and would love to have it on something that could pull its weight in this meta
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alolan muk can pull its weight quite well, actually. nice special bulk (especially with only the one weakness), spreads poison easily with poison touch, good physical stab and coverage, knock off, and some solid utility moves like taunt and even the occasional haze. it made its way to b- on the pre-dlc1 vr, right alongside torn-t and blissey
 
Pwndkthnx said:
My thing is: what does Darkrai REALLY do that other Dark type mons can't? I'll wait. I don't think it's speed or bulk warrants it being a high tier Pokémon since, I assume, there are others that can do its job (and then some). At least tell me it gets Snarl. Maybe Choice Scarf + Snarl can be a thing. Otherwise, I can't think of anything useful it can do without it being able to take full advantage of Dark Void and/or Bad Dreams.
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Sure, if those Dark-types are Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu. It's notably faster and/or stronger than other offensive Dark types such as Meow and Gambit (which most already think is broken anyway), and it has setup opportunities and insane coverage. Speed creep is real, but 125 unboosted is still enough to outspeed most of the meta (and with Tera it has the opportunity to improve its matchups against the few things that are faster, like going fairy to beat +spe booster valiant or zama). Calcs show how much +2 Darkrai can do to most of the meta, and it has enough opportunities to get in and set up with 90/90 bulk and how much offensive pressure it can put on most teams. It rips through bulkier teams, but offense also has a fairly hard time outpacing it. This isn't even getting into Scarf or Specs sets which could also be viable considering how naturally strong and fast it is (and how spammable STAB dark pulse is)
 
Pwndkthnx said:
My thing is: what does Darkrai REALLY do that other Dark type mons can't? I'll wait. I don't think it's speed or bulk warrants it being a high tier Pokémon since, I assume, there are others that can do its job (and then some). At least tell me it gets Snarl. Maybe Choice Scarf + Snarl can be a thing. Otherwise, I can't think of anything useful it can do without it being able to take full advantage of Dark Void and/or Bad Dreams.
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As a special wallbreaker, there is nothing that compares to Darkrai in OU because of it's combination of high speed (third-highest relevant OU mon) and power. As for as Dark-type breakers go, Swords Dance Samurott-Hisui is reliant on Sucker Punch since its speed is underwhelming, which can be outplayed by mindgames involving faster priority attacks, Encore, and Dark resists that can OHKO it such as Enamorus and Meowscarada. It is walled by Dondozo. Kingambit is a very powerful and bulky wallbreaker, but it is very slow, requiring it to rely on Sucker Punch, which can be played around much in the same way as Samurott-Hisui albeit to a lesser extent since Kingambit's Sucker Punch is so much stronger. Additionally, over half of people who qualified for the suspect test believe that Kingambit is broken. It is also walled by Curse Dondozo. Meowscarada is locked into a single move if you're using it as a wallbreaker, which is exploitable. Greninja is a lot weaker and needs a KO before it is really threatening, and even then, there are a multiple special walls that can handle it whereas Darkrai shreds pretty much every wall there is if you've seen my calcs here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-post-594-tiering-survey.3727806/post-9782905

As far as special wallbreakers go in general, Thundurus-Therian is stronger, but it is a lot slower and frailer and easily revenged by Kingambit. Enamorus has breaking power with the Choice Specs set, but it is a lot slower, frailer, and locked into a single move as well as being weak to Stealth Rock. Gholdengo is not fast by any stretch of the imagination, so even though it has comparable power special attack to Darkrai, it is easier to deal with due to the much worse speed tier and how Dark is a better attacking type than both Ghost and Steel. Iron Moth is reliant on Terastalizing or Booster Energy to wallbreak and has a much worse speed tier as well as awful physical bulk. Ursaluna-Bloodmoon is very slow with Blood Moon not easily spammable due to it not being usable in consecutive turns, and a horrible defensive typing that forces it to Tera a lot of the time. Walking Wake is a lot slower and has to be in weather to make the most of its potential as a wallbreaker, and even then there are some pretty sturdy Water resists or Water-immune Pokemon in OU. It's literally monstrous in Sun even if it is locked into a single move with the Choice Specs set, especially now that it has Knock Off to turn checks into sitting ducks, and I believe it's borderline broken after the DLC. Darkrai is a cut above every special wallbreaker in OU, even Walking Wake, so I don't believe there's much merit to dropping it down to OU for a test.
 
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Too early for bans as usual, day two and we already banning things when we haven't figured out yet how each one of the new tools is meant to be used. Either way one less threat to maneuver against so keep em bans coming idc I just don't find it the right way to be nuking things from a tier that quickly.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
alolan muk can pull its weight quite well, actually. nice special bulk (especially with only the one weakness), spreads poison easily with poison touch, good physical stab and coverage, knock off, and some solid utility moves like taunt and even the occasional haze. it made its way to b- on the pre-dlc1 vr, right alongside torn-t and blissey
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lmao completely forgot that amuk existed XD, poison touch + knock off is one hella combo. A skuntank evo would be cool af tho

Just wondering what people think of the non-hearthflame ogerpon forms. How viable do you think they are or will be in the meta? If you've been using them what types of teams are you using them in. A bit specific but how well do you think they pull their weight without needing to tera?
 
I haven't seen a single post about Darkrai suggesting any positive role it may have in the meta. Nothing about actual concrete and consistent offensive and or defensive counterclaim. Zamazenta supporters had a lot to say about its positives, both theoretical or practical. Even Bax was touted to have good positive additions to the tier, which until DzLC1 was able to somewhat justify its existence sgainst its negstive traits. The only arguments I've seen are "Iron Valiant" and "No Dark Void". Can someone please bring forward an actual reason why this Pokémon deserves a retest, and why it does more so than say, Urshifu (either form) for example, just to throw a mon out there.
 
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