Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Has anyone experimented with Hatt to deal with Gliscor? I know it's not exactly the strongest mon in OU, but in theory it would wall the spikes/toxic/tect set that's been brought up in this thread. EQ is a 5hko without the gliscor investing in attack, and Hatt does get a chance to set up CMs and drain off the damage.
 
Court Change isn't real removal for teams that are not able to very quickly win after the Court Change, or can kill the Unkillable Gliscor/Ting-Lu first before being able to Court Change it all away. That's why you need Great Tusk too. So really, when people say "run Great Tusk / Cinderace"; don't get it twisted. It's not one or the other, you really need both.

On top of that, the reason not every team needs Gholdengo is because of simple math.

If 30% of the tier is running a Pokemon, people will not run Pokemon that make the game a 5v6 against that Pokemon. You don't need to run Gholdengo on your team because you can teambuild around the fact that everyone else is already teambuilding around Gholdengo.

It's not like you just don't prep your team around the fact that Sneasler exists, and that shapes the ways almost every team is built at least slightly. Gholdengo magnifies this tenfold by shaping the entire hazard metagame, and thus this obviously effects how every type of team is made.

No one wants to be the one bringing a team that just can't get the three plus stacked hazards off of their side of the field, because Gholdengo keeps blocking it.
 
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Yeah I just want to point some things out for consideration regarding some arguments I've seen

1. Not every team (nor every hazard stack team) needs to be running Gholdengo for it's impact to still be felt in the meta
2. A hazard stack team does not need to be running Gholdengo to benefit from Gholdengo existing in the meta, by virtue of it's presence centralizing the ways that hazards can be removed
3. Just because hazard stack is still a good strategy without Gholdengo doesn't mean Gholdengo is not contributing to a hazard stack meta
4. People running defog corviknight currently doesn't mean that Gholdengo isn't impacting it's viability
5. Even if ONLY corviknight were to become more viable as a defogger without Gholdengo, that's still suddenly a new mon that you can run in different team styles than always having to rely on Great Tusk, and is a mon that happens to do incredibly well against the current hazard stackers
6. If the counterplay to hazards as is, is to "lol run Great Tusk", is that healthy?
7. If a hazard stacker that beats Great Tusk being introduced causes the meta to be broken, because Great Tusk is the viable hazard removal (and Cinderace although as others have pointed out it's a temporary removal), is it better to look at the hazard stacker or the fact that there are only 1.5 viable ways to remove hazards in the meta?
8. On that line of thought, it becomes a chicken and egg type of deal, would Gliscor (for example) be unhealthy without Gholdengo in the meta, in a theoretical scenario where the meta would then adapt to it's introduction by Corviknight usage rising to counter it? Would Gholdengo be unhealthy without powerful spikers (gliscor, ting-lu, sammy) in the meta? I don't know the answer to either question, but I do know that Gholdengo's impact is unique and there are much more likely to be powerful spikers at this point given it's distribution, than there will ever be another versatile mon with the ability to block almost all hazard removal
9. Gholdengo not being traditionally "broken" doesn't mean it can't have a significant, and unhealthy impact on a metagame, and doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to consider banning it
10. Given the impact Gholdengo's departure on a meta would have, I can understand the idea of waiting until DLC2 to really consider any sort of action
 
Look at the current list of Defog and Rapid Spin users, what realistically happens if Gholdengo is banned?
Like currently the only Pokemon you'd want to bring with Defog/Rapid Spin that also uses said moves are Great Tusk, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, and Torkoal, all of which can threaten Gholdengo out anyways, and pretty much are the only hazard removers that are good/not outclassed. Only Pokemon I can see rising in usage as a Defogger is Scizor and Cinderace forgoing Court Change.
Ultimately there really isn't a change to hazard aspect of the Metagame if Gholdengo is banned. Good defoggers and rapid spins are simply just rare or outclassed.
The real issue is that the metagame is way too strong and distribution of Defog/Rapid Spin was gutted. Unless Indigo Disk provides Defog back to several Pokemon like Zapdos, Moltres, Landorus-T, Pelipper, and Rotom-W, hazards will just be a problem no matter what.
 
i don’t understand why people are advocating action on gholdengo - it seems to me to be a case of beating around the bush. if we can agree that the hazards game is lopsided or problematic, why not deal with the problem at its roots?

this generation has seen a huge increase in the number of viable spike setters, alongside a hefty restriction in the viable means of removal. there has never been such an imbalance in any previous generation, even before the buff to defog.

it’s clear to me that spikes are overcentralising, & have been since the advent of g9. were it not for their presence, we would see a far less constrained metagame. stall wouldn’t be pigeon-holed into boots spam, balance wouldn’t be forced to do the same or abuse spikes itself, & teams in general would not be as formulaic as they are now.
 
Cuddly said:
Look at the current list of Defog and Rapid Spin users, what realistically happens if Gholdengo is banned?
Like currently the only Pokemon you'd want to bring with Defog/Rapid Spin that also uses said moves are Great Tusk, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, and Torkoal, all of which can threaten Gholdengo out anyways, and pretty much are the only hazard removers that are good/not outclassed. Only Pokemon I can see rising in usage as a Defogger is Scizor and Cinderace forgoing Court Change.
Ultimately there really isn't a change to hazard aspect of the Metagame if Gholdengo is banned. Good defoggers and rapid spins are simply just rare or outclassed.
The real issue is that the metagame is way too strong and distribution of Defog/Rapid Spin was gutted. Unless Indigo Disk provides Defog back to several Pokemon like Zapdos, Moltres, Landorus-T, Pelipper, and Rotom-W, hazards will just be a problem no matter what.
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>Corv
>Threaten Gholdengo

Have you missed literally the entire conversation thus far which has said, whether legitimately or as a strawman, that a Gholdengo ban would basically be around saving Corviknight? Also as for Mandibuzz
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 152-182 (48.2 - 57.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 104-126 (33 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 102-122 (32.3 - 38.7%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO

Mandibuzz can't break through Gholdengo and in fact is set-up fodder for Recover + Boosting move sets like standard Air Balloon or NP-Cloak. So 2/4 of the Hazard removers you listed as "want to bring and can threaten Gholdengo" are in fact stopped by Gholdengo. Even assuming no unlisted Pokemon become viable, going from 2-4 is literally doubling the Hazard control options, thinking in proportions instead of the flat quantity is important in a heavily centralized tier.

tigers jaw said:
i don’t understand why people are advocating action on gholdengo - it seems to me to be a case of beating around the bush. if we can agree that the hazards game is lopsided or problematic, why not deal with the problem at its roots?

this generation has seen a huge increase in the number of viable spike setters, alongside a hefty restriction in the viable means of removal. there has never been such an imbalance in any previous generation, even before the buff to defog.

it’s clear to me that spikes are overcentralising, & have been since the advent of g9. were it not for their presence, we would see a far less constrained metagame. stall wouldn’t be pigeon-holed into boots spam, balance wouldn’t be forced to do the same or abuse spikes itself, & teams in general would not be as formulaic as they are now.
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Because as I pointed out in a previous post, Hazards are so deep-seated and integral as a metagame element that acting on Spikes presents a much wider net to evaluate than the unprecentedly-effective-removal-blocking Pokemon this Gen also added. Hell, something many regard as busted as Terastalization is a massive topic to even consider action, much less a ban on it, as the flavor-of-the-gen gimmick. Not to mention that Spikes being available on an unhealthy number of viable setters isn't mutually exclusive from a Pokemon that makes them nigh impossible to remove in an effective/timely manner as a bad presence in the tier. You cite the imbalance of Spikes setters, but Gholdengo's entire concept as a Mon is literally unprecedented by outright preventing (not ignoring, outright preventing from activating) an entire category of moves if they have to interact with it (something even Magic Bounce could not do for Hazard interaction)
 
I think Ghold deserves a deeper dive once we have a settled metagame, but we don’t currently and I don’t know when we will. I also don’t know if a deeper dive constitutes looking at it or looking at other things adjacent to it. And I also don’t know if looking at it means discussion or formal action.

We are at a point right now where I think there are bigger fish to fry, but I am glad this is beginning to make the rounds and hope we keep discussing Ghold as well as conducting the type of root cause analysis others have within this thread.
 
i'd like to throw my hat in the ring here and say that i don't think gholdengo is the root cause of this hazard nonsense and banning it wouldn't solve anything. it's simple math—we just have too many spikes setters and not enough removers, and none of the mons with access to spikes are individually banworthy in my eyes (except for ogerpon-hogslice, who doesn't even run it). since i don't consider any of the involved pokemon to be banworthy, the next step would be looking into the move spikes itself, which, while extreme, would conclusively solve the issue of the hazard stack meta—it would leave hisuian samurott as the only way to set spikes, and if the playstyle still proves problematic, hisuian samurott could go as well. needless to say, this is somewhat of a nuclear option and would probably receive no small amount of community pushback, including from myself. this is a puzzle with only impossible solutions. the only thing we can realistically do is accept that hazard stack is part of gen 9 like weather was part of gen 5—ubiquitous and generally disliked, but impossible to effectively deal with under the limits of tiering policy
 
pika pal said:
>Corv
>Threaten Gholdengo

Have you missed literally the entire conversation thus far which has said, whether legitimately or as a strawman, that a Gholdengo ban would basically be around saving Corviknight? Also as for Mandibuzz
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 152-182 (48.2 - 57.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 104-126 (33 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 102-122 (32.3 - 38.7%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO

Mandibuzz can't break through Gholdengo and in fact is set-up fodder for Recover + Boosting move sets like standard Air Balloon or NP-Cloak. So 2/4 of the Hazard removers you listed as "want to bring and can threaten Gholdengo" are in fact stopped by Gholdengo. Even assuming no unlisted Pokemon become viable, going from 2-4 is literally doubling the Hazard control options, thinking in proportions instead of the flat quantity is important in a heavily centralized tier.


Because as I pointed out in a previous post, Hazards are so deep-seated and integral as a metagame element that acting on Spikes presents a much wider net to evaluate than the unprecentedly-effective-removal-blocking Pokemon this Gen also added. Hell, something many regard as busted as Terastalization is a massive topic to even consider action, much less a ban on it, as the flavor-of-the-gen gimmick. Not to mention that Spikes being available on an unhealthy number of viable setters isn't mutually exclusive from a Pokemon that makes them nigh impossible to remove in an effective/timely manner as a bad presence in the tier. You cite the imbalance of Spikes setters, but Gholdengo's entire concept as a Mon is literally unprecedented by outright preventing (not ignoring, outright preventing from activating) an entire category of moves if they have to interact with it (something even Magic Bounce could not do for Hazard interaction)
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Corviknight can threaten to stall out Gholdengo's PP, especially on Make it Rain.
Also that's besides the point. Point is nothing really changes. In Gholdengo is constricting team building by enabling hazards, then surely a bunch of hazard removers would rise in usage when it's gone, but looking at what's available I question what would become good.
If Gholdengo does not actually constrict teambuilding, then why care or bring it up?
Saying Gholdengo is a problem because it makes hazard removing too hard and constricts what's good is only valid if tons of hazard removers drop and niche ones like Hawlucha/Weezing start appearing. Fact is most defog/rapid spin users are simply not good or outclassed, regardless of Gholdengo's existence.
 
Once again, people are not letting the meta develop to see how far it can go. This metagame is less than 10 days old (at the time of writing) and will obviously be crazy. Just look at gen 8, it was probably even more crazy with stuff like dracovish, cinderace, magernea and g-darmanitan. Even ursaluna after home dropped was theorised it would be broken but look at it now, it's in UU. Gholdengo checks a lot of crazy pokemon, sneasler could potentially be ban worthy, and I honestly don't see it on every team. If Gholdengo was truly busted, you would see it far more often, and yet I haven't been seeing it too often. It's simply a good pokemon and banning it would not change much.
For example, sure Corviknight could defog much easier, but there aren't many good defoggers or rapid spinners. Besides, spike stack teams could build around this new meta and be just as defining. Banning Gholdengo will just take away a great defensive answer and because people will complain about a retest when others realise it's importance in the meta game, we won't get it back and way more pokemon will get banned.
 
Cuddly said:
Look at the current list of Defog and Rapid Spin users, what realistically happens if Gholdengo is banned?
Like currently the only Pokemon you'd want to bring with Defog/Rapid Spin that also uses said moves are Great Tusk, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, and Torkoal, all of which can threaten Gholdengo out anyways, and pretty much are the only hazard removers that are good/not outclassed. Only Pokemon I can see rising in usage as a Defogger is Scizor and Cinderace forgoing Court Change.
Ultimately there really isn't a change to hazard aspect of the Metagame if Gholdengo is banned. Good defoggers and rapid spins are simply just rare or outclassed.
The real issue is that the metagame is way too strong and distribution of Defog/Rapid Spin was gutted. Unless Indigo Disk provides Defog back to several Pokemon like Zapdos, Moltres, Landorus-T, Pelipper, and Rotom-W, hazards will just be a problem no matter what.
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Its not so much the fact that other pokemon with hazards would become ou, its that removing hazards with mons that are already ou and have hazard removal becomes more consistent. Yeah Corv can now defog if Ghold is gone, which honeslty helps a ton and destroys a lot of the usefulness of hazard stack. But youre assuming in this discussion just by having a great tusk or torkoal and "threatening" gholdengo that its consistently able to remove hazards. No, with even decent playing a player can block hazard removal from all these mons.

Hazards are everywhere and are an issue, which we seem to agree on, but we can't control the distribution of defog and rapid spin. Rolling over and saying "itll just be an issue regardless of what we do" while intentionally turning a blind eye to the pokemon that is without a doubt the best way of preventing hazard removal in the history of mons is thoughtless.

I'm not saying hazards and amazing setters wont be everywhere, or that the amount of removal mons will be limited. I'm saying allowing these mons to remove the actual hazards (even if just one time) is incredibly important and impactful on the effectiveness and overall use of hazard spam in the game.

I mean if Gholdengo is banned, Glimmora drops out of OU. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
 
Please feast your eyes on my fire spin dragonite. It deals with fire ogerpon and ursaluna bloodmoon pretty well and gives a lot of threats a hard time. At least in theory. Lax nature lol.

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 40 SpA / 4 SpD / 68 Spe
Lax Nature
- Fire Spin
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
 
FuecocoBoi said:
WHY DUSKNOIR IS GOOD IN GEN 9 OU
  1. REALLY HIGH DEFENSES WITH DECENT DEFENSIVE TYPING
  2. TRICK ROOM AND IF YOU TERA CURSE BECOMES FLIPPING VICTORY DANCE
  3. PRIORITY IN SHADOW SNEAK
  4. JUST GOT FLIPPING POLTERGEIST
  5. FANTASTIC COVERAGE IN FIRE ICE ELECTRIC GROUND LEECH LIFE ROCK FIGHTING
  6. WILLOWISP
  7. PRESSURE TURNS SUCKER PUNCH INTO A 4PP MOVE
  8. ICE PUNCH TO COVER LANDORUS
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Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 40 SpA / 4 SpD / 68 Spe
Lax Nature
- Fire Spin
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
 
cartertben said:
Once again, people are not letting the meta develop to see how far it can go. This metagame is less than 10 days old (at the time of writing) and will obviously be crazy. Just look at gen 8, it was probably even more crazy with stuff like dracovish, cinderace, magernea and g-darmanitan. Even ursaluna after home dropped was theorised it would be broken but look at it now, it's in UU. Gholdengo checks a lot of crazy pokemon, sneasler could potentially be ban worthy, and I honestly don't see it on every team. If Gholdengo was truly busted, you would see it far more often, and yet I haven't been seeing it too often. It's simply a good pokemon and banning it would not change much.
For example, sure Corviknight could defog much easier, but there aren't many good defoggers or rapid spinners. Besides, spike stack teams could build around this new meta and be just as defining. Banning Gholdengo will just take away a great defensive answer and because people will complain about a retest when others realise it's importance in the meta game, we won't get it back and way more pokemon will get banned.
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This isn't really about DLC1 meta, Ghold was overbearing in home, and in pre-home sv. And its also not about Gholdengo being broken, its about it being overcentralizing. That doesn't mean its on every team, moreso that every team has to specifically account for it, and that its easy to put onto nearly any team. Honestly, the metagame has stabilized to the point that hazard spam is the obvious answer, as not only does ghold support that, but its also the only way passive walls can make any progress in a game since ghold is completely immune to or invalidates so much.

Even if spike stack teams adapt to a ghold-less meta, I would much rather me be able to actually remove hazards and for spike stack to get them back up. What are they gonna block removal with if ghold doesn't exist? Only ghold blocks defog and its not like other ghosts are as widely usable or can recover like ghold. So they spend more time getting up the hazards I just removed and give me more and more time to actually win the game. The whole hazard stack meta, literally hinges on the fact that they cant be removed. One mon is truly preventing that.

If you're only issues with ghold being banned is that it makes other things too broken, perhaps they should be looked at as well, but I don't think an ability which blocks all status moves in the game on a pokemon that widely useable is healthy for any metagame. If this was aegislash, I'd see literally no issue.
 
Its so awesome that they made ADV Skarm for Gen 9!

Seriously, I don't think Gliscor is banworthy but its pretty ridiculous. No reliable recovery yet it never dies, is a spiking machine, is spike immune itself and barely has to worry about stealth rock. The only thing its really missing that ADV Skarm has is a phazing move.

As a side note, having been playing around with some of the new tools we have, I realize we don't actually have a lot of great special walls this gen that pair particularly well with Gliscor. Ting-Lu and Clodsire are the main special walls in OU and they stack weaknesses with Gliscor which isn't ideal. Any suggestions to pair with gliscor for a good defensive core?
 
Guyoftheego said:
Its so awesome that they made ADV Skarm for Gen 9!

Seriously, I don't think Gliscor is banworthy but its pretty ridiculous. No reliable recovery yet it never dies, is a spiking machine, is spike immune itself and barely has to worry about stealth rock. The only thing its really missing that ADV Skarm has is a phazing move.

As a side note, having been playing around with some of the new tools we have, I realize we don't actually have a lot of great special walls this gen that pair particularly well with Gliscor. Ting-Lu and Clodsire are the main special walls in OU and they stack weaknesses with Gliscor which isn't ideal. Any suggestions to pair with gliscor for a good defensive core?
Click to expand...

I think that Clodsire can actually do if you run water absorb. You are still weak to ice but I haven't come across that many ice types since Bax got the axe. Or maybe Empoleon could do since it also gets rocks, resists water and quad resists ice, has flip turn, has a switch move, and Gliscor can protect it from ground, fighting, and electric type moves. Of course, that still means grass can be problematic since neither of them resists the move. Oh, and Zapdos rips both of them apart reliably so that's something to think about as well. I've been using Gliscor and Empoleon with an AV Tyranitar set posted here and it's doing mostly fine. The only real problem with it is the Ogerpons which is really difficult to defensively answer. But at least Tyranitar protects the core from Zapdos
 
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`ShadowTwo said:
For the Spikes and Gholdengo, I think we should wait until DLC 2 to suspect them, see if Defog returns with DLC 2 as a TM
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I agree with this. Even though these discussions on Ghold and dealing with hazard stack are important, unless something egregious comes out they are a bit fruitless if we would be forced to repeat them in three months
 
What do you think about weezing galar this generation?

Its neutralizing gas ability seems somewhat more relevant this generation than before.

It can use defog on gholdengo and does not have hawlucha's frailty
 
Soiramio3000 said:
What do you think about weezing galar this generation?

Its neutralizing gas ability seems somewhat more relevant this generation than before.

It can use defog on gholdengo and does not have hawlucha's frailty
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I didn't have time to experiment much with it but Nuetralizing Gas vs Levitate is something I still have to wrap my head around. In particular, while the former allows to Defog on Ghold (on switch) and beat Gliscor (after a few turns) and Garg, the latter can beat Tusk, Chomp, Lando and wall Gliscor and Clod. Honestly I think on a game-to-game basis, Levitate does seem like the more versatile ability, especially for the Tusk match-up, but Neutralizing Gas can have its uses on certain teams
 
Guyoftheego said:
As a side note, having been playing around with some of the new tools we have, I realize we don't actually have a lot of great special walls this gen that pair particularly well with Gliscor. Ting-Lu and Clodsire are the main special walls in OU and they stack weaknesses with Gliscor which isn't ideal. Any suggestions to pair with gliscor for a good defensive core?
Click to expand...
Empoleon has excellent type synergy with Gliscor on paper and has solid special bulk supported by its newly-acquired Roost, but in my experience (at least so far), it struggles to accomplish much in this metagame without some real creative thinking.
EDIT: oh I'm not the first to mention it!
 
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