I get the impulse to compare them, but hidden power didn't also come with an extra STAB/super powered STAB and with the ability to flip matchups on their head unprompted via a new defensive typing. Tera is definitely not healthy for the tier, even if it's definitely here for good
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Hello! Three questions:
- Why made Samurott drop so hard? Is he threatened by an OU drop?
- Why is Rillaboom OU with a nerfed priority that would hurts barely more than unstab extreme speed (while not being +2 priority and necessitating terrain that only lasts a few turns) Theoretically he must be really bad as a wincon cause offensive grass type + limited turns + 55bp WHY DID THEY NERF HIM ;^;
he can't even OHKO Iron Valiant with band
(Don't look Rillabros ;^; :)
- Are there new toys against Kingambit or do we still have to use DB+encore Iron Valiant to hope constantly defeating him?
- Why made Samurott drop so hard? Is he threatened by an OU drop?
- Why is Rillaboom OU with a nerfed priority that would hurts barely more than unstab extreme speed (while not being +2 priority and necessitating terrain that only lasts a few turns) Theoretically he must be really bad as a wincon cause offensive grass type + limited turns + 55bp WHY DID THEY NERF HIM ;^;
he can't even OHKO Iron Valiant with band
(Don't look Rillabros ;^; :)
- Are there new toys against Kingambit or do we still have to use DB+encore Iron Valiant to hope constantly defeating him?
- hamurott dropped so hard because gliscor is so much better than every other spikes setter that it's almost a waste of a teamslot to run anything else for the move. we basically went from like 25 viable spikes users to 1 within a matter of weeks. also has an awful matchup against waterpon. definitely not at risk of dropping from ou, though, since ceaseless edge is still one of the cheapest moves in the game and it still has a lot of useful things it can do that other things can't in conjunction
- you have to remember that grassy glide isn't 55-power priority. it's only priority in grassy terrain, which boosts its power, so you're dealing with an 82.5-power priority move. grassy terrain is also one of the best available anti-gliscor techs, and the abundance of grounds in the meta is great for rillaboom. sure, on paper it might not be that great of a wincon, but in practice it screws up a lot of earthquake-centric mons
- i mean, bloodmoon is a great tool against gambit, but, uh…
What are your thoughts on breloom?
I believe that this pokemon can work as a decent "anti-lead" since it can threaten most hazard setters thanks to its typying and priority mach punch.
I believe that this pokemon can work as a decent "anti-lead" since it can threaten most hazard setters thanks to its typying and priority mach punch.
Then it always ends in the thing of "broken checks/beat broken", and currently BM is getting suspected wth having a lot of people being against it, but once again, no wonder, special attackers are always proven to be more difficult to check compared to physical attackers, and even if BM has worse bulk than regular Ursaluna, it still hasn't to deal with chip damage each turn, then has a recovery move, CM can help with its poor special defense, it's excellent tanking physical moves, and why not a priority. If only Gamefreak put the frostbite of Legends Arceus in Gen 9 many things would probably change
Thanks!
Small correction, grassy terrain boosts x1.3 I believe, so grassy glide does 71.5 on terrain. X1.5 for stab and you got a 103bp move, which is really sad. (Even though it's stronger than Extreme Speed that has 80bp, don't know why I thought it had 100bp)
Kingambit made me drop after a few weeks of DLC, I really hope he gets either banned or DLC2 brings things to counter him.
Even if not centralizing he's just too toxic and you can't ignore his looming presence when teambuilding. And a wincon setup mon at 40%?! Come on, that doesn't seem right...
Breloom can be interesting, since if it runs Toxic Heal basically has no problems against Gliscor unless it runs sets with Ice/Fire Fang or a Flying move, can be really useful against Hamurott, as it resists both Aqua Jet than Sucker Punch, maybe can have a chance against Kingambit, but it's too frail
In a vacuum, Dondozo is the best. Doesn’t mind toxic thanks to rest. Sits on Gliscor for days and can whittle it down with liquidation. But it’s easy for gliscor to set up spikes on dondozo so you’ll need to bring hazard control. You may run into some issues if your opponent has a reliable Dondozo switch in. Because then they can just set a spike, switch out, repeat. While Dondozo remains a momentum sink.
oh yeah, it is 1.3, whoops. even still, that's stronger than almost every other viable form of priority in the tier. the only things that hit harder unboosted are various sucker punches and tera normal dragonite espeed; the former require you to win the sucker punch 50/50 mindgames and the latter burns your tera. as for gambit, yeah, it's bullshit and we all know it's bullshit. hopefully we get a suspect for it in dlc2
i like breloom a lot and i'm interested in how poison heal sets might function as anti-gliscor tech in particular. it also has a good matchup against a lot of waterpon sets even though it's frail, and spore is very threatening to a lot of current team compositions
It's only been 3 weeks into DLC and we're already on page 100 
I have nothing useful to add at this time, but I'll ask a fun question instead:
Aside from Blood Moon, what other Pokémon do you currently find very strong in the metagame, and is there anything that might be too much in your opinion?
My other fun question is, how do you personally keep up with OU? Do you stick to forums, ladder a lot, watch tournaments, youtube/streamers, all of those, or something else?
Have a fun one and here is a small reminder that you have until Friday night GMT-4 to get voting requirements for the Ursaluna suspect test if you haven't already done so!
I have nothing useful to add at this time, but I'll ask a fun question instead:
Aside from Blood Moon, what other Pokémon do you currently find very strong in the metagame, and is there anything that might be too much in your opinion?
My other fun question is, how do you personally keep up with OU? Do you stick to forums, ladder a lot, watch tournaments, youtube/streamers, all of those, or something else?
Have a fun one and here is a small reminder that you have until Friday night GMT-4 to get voting requirements for the Ursaluna suspect test if you haven't already done so!
Zamazenta is hella underrated. With the abundance of physical attackers in the tier that it outspeeds and threatens, it can easily come in and get that iron defense and clean up late game. Tusk, Gambit, Ogerpon, Roaring Moon, hell you can even come in and threaten bloodmoon if it doesn't have a tera ready. I'm running the psyspam team with it and once you get that spdef boost you can live basically everything and sweep most teams, as rest allows it to deal with gliscor, body press just straight up ohkos empoleon, heavy slam hits clef, and only dozo can stop you.It's only been 3 weeks into DLC and we're already on page 100
I have nothing useful to add at this time, but I'll ask a fun question instead:
Aside from Blood Moon, what other Pokémon do you currently find very strong in the metagame, and is there anything that might be too much in your opinion?
My other fun question is, how do you personally keep up with OU? Do you stick to forums, ladder a lot, watch tournaments, youtube/streamers, all of those, or something else?
Have a fun one and here is a small reminder that you have until Friday night GMT-4 to get voting requirements for the Ursaluna suspect test if you haven't already done so!
Edit: oops missed the second question lol. I like to ladder, check the forums occasionally, and am pretty active in the smogon discord. Mostly chilling on the discord though.
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To answer the first question, I still think Manaphy is busted. That thing was the one mon I feared most when I matched up into it while getting reqs. I find the take heart sets incredibly unfun to fight against, at least Tail Glow is out offensable for most teams. Besides that stuff like Kingambit, Gliscor and Waterpon are all very strong mons and could all warrant a suspect, although we all know how the Gambit one went last time.It's only been 3 weeks into DLC and we're already on page 100
I have nothing useful to add at this time, but I'll ask a fun question instead:
Aside from Blood Moon, what other Pokémon do you currently find very strong in the metagame, and is there anything that might be too much in your opinion?
My other fun question is, how do you personally keep up with OU? Do you stick to forums, ladder a lot, watch tournaments, youtube/streamers, all of those, or something else?
Have a fun one and here is a small reminder that you have until Friday night GMT-4 to get voting requirements for the Ursaluna suspect test if you haven't already done so!
And for the second, I generally ladder and build my own teams. I hop on forums often to check what others are talking about, but it's mostly laddering. And of course, Youtube, can't miss the agency
my attempts at getting reqs are consistently stopped by substitute zamazenta and i have no idea what to change or replace on my team to deal with it. i'm considering skeledirge because my team also has a pretty substantial iron moth weakness (although that's easier to maneuver around), but everything on my team seems too instrumental to replace
edit: skeledirge also doesn't work. i'm beginning to suspect that zamazenta is not as balanced as we first thought
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I got my shit rocked by by a Cornerstone Ogerpon with Focus Energy after I foolishly thought my Dragon Manaphy after 3 Acid Armors was invincible.
More seriously though, I think Iron Moth really won in this DLC. I see it a lot more often now. I've seen both Tera Grass Energy Ball sets and Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam, and they work pretty well. Plus going for Booster Energy Speed is something really helpful this metagame.
For myself, I mostly keep up with OU by laddering, talking here (once again as of recent), and checking in on YouTubers. I like Jimothy Cool best myself.
Have you tried Glowking? Unless you're consistently running into Tera Ground Moth and/or CB Crunch Zama, Glowking deals with both of these pretty well from my experience & it fits in a bunch of teams. To deal with moth specifically I usually run AV with Surf + Ice Beam to cover any Tera that moth might whip out
yeah theyre def different
I def agree that hp is probably healthier, as it doesn't allow the mons to change their type
i was just trying to say theyre similar
I've found Quaquaval to actually be not too bad in the current hyper-offensive metagame when placed on Sticky Web teams. Not having to worry about being outrun by Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, and Iron Moth really helps the duck out, and would-be checks like Wellspring Ogerpon and Walking Wake become less reliable when they can't out-speed the duck and must eat a Close Combat which can KO if they are chipped on/before switch-in. It also works as a great anti-lead against Glimmora if it runs Aqua Step + Rapid Spin which can lead to Glimmora being forced out with no progress or getting to take out an enemy Gholdengo or Dragapult that tries to spinblock, though the latter needs to be sniped on switch-in if you're running Adamant. It also just scares a lot of the tier into either switching or using Tera as Gliscor, Great Tusk, Hisuian Samurott, and more want nothing to do with it. I'd mention Bloodmoon Ursaluna, but it tends to be the Tera user regardless so it's not struggling. It also helps that Water-Fighting is good against Hisuian Samurott and Kingambit defensively, the latter being especially useful as forcing Kingambit out can lead to an opportunity.
Quaquaval does still face a lot of problems though; Toxapex and Dondozo hard-wall it without Tera support, Zamazenta can check it on the first switch-in, Rillaboom barrels through it with ease, Cinderace can Will-O-Wisp it if you try to start your sweep with it, Corviknight can be an issue without Moxie or Swords Dance boosts, Alolan Nintales can be annoying to break past sometimes, physically defensive Galarian Slowking can wall it if it doesn't have a boost and/or Knock Off, Zapdos can tank a hit and paralyze it, Clodsire can be a decent check when you don't know what set it's running, and without webs all of the faster Pokémon will outspeed and OHKO it. While webs help against Wellspring Ogerpon, her Water Absorb ability does not as incorrectly predicting when it switches in can lead to her being brought out of Close Combat range. As a lead it really only likes going up against Glimmora or Iron Treads, as Ribombee can potentially OHKO with Moonblast and Alolan Nintales can pretty easily tank an unboosted Quaquaval.
For moves, Aqua Step is an obvious must-have, as is Close Combat. If you really want it as only a lead, I suppose Brick Break could work if you're crazy enough. As for other moves, Rapid Spin is great for clearing the field if needed and helps in the anti-lead effort, Ice Spinner is great coverage and can make a predict on a Rillaboom switch-in all the more rewarding with its Terrain removal, Tera Blast can let you break past certain threats depending on Tera-type, Brave Bird can be used to ensure a kill on Wellspring Ogerpon, Knock Off can make sure that you make progress on checks, U-Turn is great for pivoting, Swords Dance can give you a huge boost in exchange for a move slot, Bulk Up can make you harder to revenge kill, Aqua Jet is good priority, Roost can be good for longevity, and Encore can ruin slower set-up sweepers like Bloodmoon Ursaluna being locked into Calm Mind.
For items, Heavy-Duty Boots and Leftovers are great for longevity with the former also making it solid against opposing Sticky Web, Life Orb or Splash Plate/Mystic Water can give a good power boost, and Lum Berry can block status attempts.
For Tera-type, Tera-Water lets you ensure kills with Aqua Step, Tera-Fighting can make your Close Combat hit harder while keeping the crucial Dark-resist, Tera-Electric helps in breaking past Dondozo, Toxapex, and Manaphy if you run Tera Blast, and Tera-Ghost can prevent Dragonite from revenge killing and instead make it Moxie fodder.
Also, if you run Jolly, then you only need to run 204 Speed EVs to out-speed Dragapult after an Aqua Step.
Thoughts? I only got to around the 1700s before getting bored so I'm not too sure if it's actually OU material for the current meta.
Quaquaval does still face a lot of problems though; Toxapex and Dondozo hard-wall it without Tera support, Zamazenta can check it on the first switch-in, Rillaboom barrels through it with ease, Cinderace can Will-O-Wisp it if you try to start your sweep with it, Corviknight can be an issue without Moxie or Swords Dance boosts, Alolan Nintales can be annoying to break past sometimes, physically defensive Galarian Slowking can wall it if it doesn't have a boost and/or Knock Off, Zapdos can tank a hit and paralyze it, Clodsire can be a decent check when you don't know what set it's running, and without webs all of the faster Pokémon will outspeed and OHKO it. While webs help against Wellspring Ogerpon, her Water Absorb ability does not as incorrectly predicting when it switches in can lead to her being brought out of Close Combat range. As a lead it really only likes going up against Glimmora or Iron Treads, as Ribombee can potentially OHKO with Moonblast and Alolan Nintales can pretty easily tank an unboosted Quaquaval.
For moves, Aqua Step is an obvious must-have, as is Close Combat. If you really want it as only a lead, I suppose Brick Break could work if you're crazy enough. As for other moves, Rapid Spin is great for clearing the field if needed and helps in the anti-lead effort, Ice Spinner is great coverage and can make a predict on a Rillaboom switch-in all the more rewarding with its Terrain removal, Tera Blast can let you break past certain threats depending on Tera-type, Brave Bird can be used to ensure a kill on Wellspring Ogerpon, Knock Off can make sure that you make progress on checks, U-Turn is great for pivoting, Swords Dance can give you a huge boost in exchange for a move slot, Bulk Up can make you harder to revenge kill, Aqua Jet is good priority, Roost can be good for longevity, and Encore can ruin slower set-up sweepers like Bloodmoon Ursaluna being locked into Calm Mind.
For items, Heavy-Duty Boots and Leftovers are great for longevity with the former also making it solid against opposing Sticky Web, Life Orb or Splash Plate/Mystic Water can give a good power boost, and Lum Berry can block status attempts.
For Tera-type, Tera-Water lets you ensure kills with Aqua Step, Tera-Fighting can make your Close Combat hit harder while keeping the crucial Dark-resist, Tera-Electric helps in breaking past Dondozo, Toxapex, and Manaphy if you run Tera Blast, and Tera-Ghost can prevent Dragonite from revenge killing and instead make it Moxie fodder.
Also, if you run Jolly, then you only need to run 204 Speed EVs to out-speed Dragapult after an Aqua Step.
Thoughts? I only got to around the 1700s before getting bored so I'm not too sure if it's actually OU material for the current meta.
I'm pretty sure you're better than like 70% of the people on this thread
i’ve brrnntil
Iron Moth is BACK. This thing is practically the face of offensive teams right now, and it’s easy to see why.
Practically everything has gone its way. A lot of its best checks—Heatran, Skeledirge, Glowking, and Ting-Lu are either on a downturn or nowhere to be seen in the meta, and popular new Pokemon like Clefable, Rillaboom, and Ogerpon-W are especially good victims for it to prey on.
Defensively it serves as good buffers to Pokemon like Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, and even opposing Iron Moth. It especially enjoys the popularity of Ogerpon-Wellspring, since it’s nothing more than a Sludge Wave victim, especially given that you speedtie with it before Booster.
What’s more, it’s coverage options are easily customizable to your team. Waters picking you off too easily? Tera Grass Energy Ball should cover that. Roaring Moon and Dragapult irritating you? Slap on Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam and blow them to bits. Need to keep Dragonite from Spamming its menacing E-Speed? Nothing a Tera Ghost can’t fix. You can even mess with OPPOSING Iron Moth by slotting in Psychic, which can screw over Toxapex too.
Of course, 4 attacks is viable, but i’ve always enjoyed Substitute, since Kingambit’s always lurking around the corner. Helps to ease prediction and get those Fiery Dance boosts, too. But there’s still sets that have yet to be experimented with. I imagine Specs Overheat could be really funny to mess around with, and maybe Boots to get around all this hazard spam. Overall, Iron Moth’s back, and it’s here to stay.
Iron Moth is BACK. This thing is practically the face of offensive teams right now, and it’s easy to see why.
Practically everything has gone its way. A lot of its best checks—Heatran, Skeledirge, Glowking, and Ting-Lu are either on a downturn or nowhere to be seen in the meta, and popular new Pokemon like Clefable, Rillaboom, and Ogerpon-W are especially good victims for it to prey on.
Defensively it serves as good buffers to Pokemon like Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, and even opposing Iron Moth. It especially enjoys the popularity of Ogerpon-Wellspring, since it’s nothing more than a Sludge Wave victim, especially given that you speedtie with it before Booster.
What’s more, it’s coverage options are easily customizable to your team. Waters picking you off too easily? Tera Grass Energy Ball should cover that. Roaring Moon and Dragapult irritating you? Slap on Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam and blow them to bits. Need to keep Dragonite from Spamming its menacing E-Speed? Nothing a Tera Ghost can’t fix. You can even mess with OPPOSING Iron Moth by slotting in Psychic, which can screw over Toxapex too.
Of course, 4 attacks is viable, but i’ve always enjoyed Substitute, since Kingambit’s always lurking around the corner. Helps to ease prediction and get those Fiery Dance boosts, too. But there’s still sets that have yet to be experimented with. I imagine Specs Overheat could be really funny to mess around with, and maybe Boots to get around all this hazard spam. Overall, Iron Moth’s back, and it’s here to stay.
Yeah Moth is great in the current meta, it can run like 3-4 diff viable teras and either booster +spe or +spA (im partial to the second as it can boost speed and +spA seems to help it get some noteworthy kills). Just matches up really well into a lot of meta stuff even if it doesn't appreciate OU being gliscor's tier now
I think heavy duty is still quaquavals best item. Its meh bulk with the current heavy hazard stack meta means that even if youre not running a spinner quaq, you appreciate not getting nailed down on a switch as it makes you much easier to deal with and cuts your potential pretty heavily.
Not only that, you can be forced to switch out by a lot of things: You're not the fastest so you want to come in to get a free aqua step or bulk up, but if you don't get that opening or the oponent has a mon that can deal with quaq easy you have to back out, which is where boots help again imo.
Small thing, but I think glimmora isn't as free as you say, since some run energy ball to bait great tusk and it out damages your roost, so if you tried to bulk up before aqua step you're forced out. Still a pretty decent matchup though
252 SpA Glimmora Energy Ball vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Quaquaval: 248-294 (71.4 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I think quaq is a pretty good mon, solid B tier and does a lot of things even though its scared by a lot of mons. Feels a bit clunky to use sometimes but I think once bm is gone it'll have more flexibility
what actually consistently beats waterpon besides "have your own waterpon and win speed ties"?
Zamazenta and Rillaboom are great checks, otherwise anything with tera dragon lol
Tera Dragon Manaphy sits on this thing. Especially the Acid Armor/Take Heart set that's been running around. One Acid Armor turns Waterpon into free setup, especially if you're running Sticky Web.
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