It was only a matter of timeCurse garg is back babyyy. Yew
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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very good point. Big thing about maus is yeah, you get the following:
-big Bomb (all the populations died)
-Fast asf
-Clean (ghold stuck watching while u clean them spikes up)
-Another One (encore!!!)
-Ghost Immune… IG? (Good for specs pult shadow ball ig)
-Break Subs
-not sisyphus (you sweeper man)
But. This is all on MAUSHOLD. This means you have to deal with:
-353 max speed (ace moon pult valiant all outspeed you at +0)
-74/70/75 defenses. I think that one explains itself.
-Gotta be Lensed up. (Item locked+ vulnerable to knock-off)
-1 shot wonder (you get 1 switch in per game on a non-healing wish/wish support team cuz of your bulk. You also are forced to rely on the ghost immunity/encore to ever set up and fully sweep)
-Ouch (You have to play knowing that sometimes, they may or may not have a helmet mon, just waiting to switch in, and may not be able to afford clicking bite on whats in front of you in case they switch in)
However, with all this in consideration, I feel like the Stall infested, Setup-filled, Waterpon/Gliscor dominated metagame, with Corv living on scraps after Ace became everywhere+Ghold existing, Maushold is just great right now. The usage of Chomp, although slowly rising again, is still on a major decline, and in addition to the mons who used to run helmet, now either not being as viable, or instead running Booster (Tusk), boots (Mola), or Lefties (also tusk, also corv), just created a perfect storm that makes maushold good. There are other threats that people prepare for in teambuilding, and this little goober is not one generally prepped for, creating openings that really show on the ladder!
guh
If you want to write up a full proposal to implement kokoloko tiering, I'm willing to post it on Policy Review on your behalf. All I require is that it be up to PR quality, so a bit more formal than the standard for this thread.
It is so damn sad that Magnet Pull doesn’t work on the Steel/Ghost types. Being able to just outright punish Gholdengo would be so valuable for every structure that isn’t just Hyper Offense, but ofc Ghost types are just that overtuned.
nothing like waking up to a fresh heaping portion of internet drama from people whose merits to actually be talking about the metagame are: frequenting the OU forum... and.... um.. being occasionally funny
AND with a new suspect forum for people to argue in?
mmm delicious
AND with a new suspect forum for people to argue in?
mmm delicious
A singular relevant pokemon resists the stab combination of Ghost + Steel
Can anyone guess who it is?
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Without having to resort to Broken VS Broken.
The two best Water-types in the tier, Garganacl and Samurott-H.
ting-lu, which is so fat that it resists even the things it doesn't actually resist
The first gen where all three sinnoh starters have a niche in OU. What a time to be alive.
technically they all had an ou niche in gen 4 (yes, even torterra, check the vr), but never since then. this is, however, the first gen since 4 where all of its own starters have a niche in ou. inteleon didn't in 8, none of the ones in 7 found their way onto the vr, chesnaught managed to carve out a small niche in 6 but gren was banned and delphox was delphox, and 5 was just kind of miserable all around especially since contrary serperior never actually released until 6
This is kinda how I view the 2nd Tera Suspect & Whatever The Heck Happens With DLC 2.
Smogon (to my knowledge) is entirely volunteer based, there's no money or whatever involved at all, every council member, every mod, is here simply Because They Like Pokemon (at least, publicly it seems that way).
There is just, no "Good Way" forwards, imo. The current Meta (and, honestly, just Gen 9 as a whole rn) is in this sort of, Jenga Endgame state, where you can only remove one piece at a time, but no matter what is removed there is going to be Some Form Of Issue. If/When Tera gets banned, there is then the entire floodgates of debate/testing of "what is okay in a Tera Meta" and so on so forth. If Tera doesn't get banned then we still have this Massive Vocal Divide between players (and while personally, the more this goes on, the more I think Tera is not welcome in such a volatile environment as this tier- but I am also bias to keeping it simply because Gen8 OU is so incredibly incredibly boring. But that is also a bias of mine, and both would get in the way of an honest vote if I participated in a Suspect).
Not to mention just, it should be obvious by now but, Gamefreak's balancing team makes some, very silly decisions, and this is entirely outside of Smogon's wheelhouse. Someone a few pages or so back mentioned "What is your view of this, unquantifiable definition of "Balanced" and "Fun"", and in my view I think a Metagame like that, is one where there isn't this, great, glaring divide between the levels of strength of even just the top few mons. Every competitive game, no matter the genre, will almost always have Something or a Group Of Things that is/are "The Best", but the issue in my eyes is "by how much". I enjoy watching a lot of Guilty Gear, Strive especially (even if it's in, an incredibly sorry state), and it is a fairly well-balanced game, the average powerlevel is high but the gap between these levels isn't ruinous (besides HC and Ram). Pre-Home, with our beloved Gluemon Great Tusk is where I would pinpoint my "This is Balanced" feelings, there was not (comparitavely, at least) many Outrageously Big Gaps of power.
And so *I think* (? at least) that is what is meant when "The Council" (I only say it as if they are a hivemind for the sake of trying to make this cohesive) means by "Balanced". But again, getting to that point is, an almost assured impossibility it feels like with Gamefreak Being Gamefreak, and the struggle and stress of trying to balance the many, many voices, opinions, and players. I know for a fact that I'm not mature enough to suggest any better ideas for how to go about This Mess, but I'm genuinely thankful for "The Council" trying to make Something that people can actually enjoy out of This Mess, even if it doesn't happen, or it takes ages, I'm simply thankful for the effort. (And empathetic of their mental states during this lol).
Hopefully any of that was coherent and made sense, Autism gives me a like negative a billion in communication.
I did this today, and it was the best thing I did. Great advice, thank you, and I actually want to second your lattermost idea. Depending on what happens over the next few days, it might be a good idea to lock the forum. I think that happened last gen? Can't really remember why, but it might do us all some good to step outside, go for a drive, touch some grass, feel some rain, all that.
I'm out with my friends tonight and none of them care about the Gholdengo dominance over hazard removal. Nature is healing.
now that you mention it, it would probably be a great idea to lock the discussion thread for a couple days after each suspect, successful or not, so the initial outburst of toxicity happens elsewhere. we could possibly even make a separate thread specifically for post-suspect reactions so everyone can still speak their piece without cluttering up the discussion thread
also, something something joy distilled from detachment
Thats some of the realest shit ever said. Wonder if the Moon will be banned like the Moon was ok I think I understand his hate for Lunatone
Why is this actually a good idea? I mean the issue is that with... let's count:
- Magearna
- Chi-Yu
- Chien Pao
- Iron Bundle
- Flutter Mane
- Annihilape
- Baxcalibur
- Regieleki
- Palafin
- Espathra
- Bloodmoon Ursaluna
- Hearthflame Ogerpon
- Volcarona
- Urshifu Rapid Strike
- Zamazenta Crowned
- Houndstone (pre Last Respects ban)
- Cyclizar (pre Shed Tail ban)
And Roaring Moon on the horizon that's... 17 pokemon bans. Now either that would be too many subforums, or just a very active main forum for the ban reactions. We're gonna all look back on this message in gen 10 when even WORSE power creep happens. I'm sure we don't want a repeat of this gen in terms of toxicity, ye?
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You're missing Chien-Pao.
Guys, seriously though, I think there's hope at the moment. I know I many not be the greatest expert in OU, tiering, and such, but with the way things are currently, I think we need to backtrack to where these roots of distress come from, and rip them out. For example, hazards. Everyone hates hazards, don't deny it, even you little .timmy reading this. Now why did hazards become the way they are. Simple, just look back at what forces these hazards to be omnipresent and a royal pain to begin with: Good as Gold, and by proxy, Gholdengo. With Ghold running around, there are very few ways to remove hazards, forcing this metagame of ours to be so hazard-reliant. The easy solution would be to ban Ghold, but I don't see it that way. We need to not just nip this in the bud, but uproot the entire environment around said forest. Remove Ghold, Gambit, Ogerpon-Water, and Gliscor, as these are the problem cards in our theoretical deck called OU. I know this may cause general chaos, but I feel that this may be for the better. Gambit is a royal pain in the ass to remove, especially with Supreme Overlord, Ghold was already talked about as it just says "No" GER-style to every status move barring buffing moves like SD, Tidy Up, Take Heart, Court Change, and etc. Waterpon completely forced out numerous pokemon out of the meta due to raw power alone, and Gliscor, despite loosing Roost, is still obnoxously hard to kill, especially when it starts stalling and placing hazards left and right. I know many of you may disagree with my opinion, but remember this: we are Smogon, we are OU, WE ARE POKEMON!!! WE CAN DO ANYTHING, AND IF YOU THINK NOT, WELL GET OUT OF HERE AND NEVER COME BACK!!! WE CAN SOLVE THIS TOGETHER!!! Now LET'S GO AND SOLVE THIS TOGETHER!!!
Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk, and good night!
Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk, and good night!
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Fixed that thanks for the blunder. But it does beg the question: if this generation has **12** new pokemon banned from OU, how powerful IS this generation in terms of power? So far, we got a generation intro ban rate -- or GIBR for short -- of almost 11% (10.71% to be exact). Roaring Moon would guarantee 11% at 11.61, and if we were to ban Gholdengo, that's now exactly 12.5%. I'm not expert on pokemans but if nearly 14% of the pokemon added in a new generation are banned from OU, then I think that generations power creep is uum... well not the best player experience. I'm not here to start another debate about this and that being banned because it's been said for like the 38th time already. Just want to show some numbers as to the quantity of pokemon banned from their debut generation.
Legitimately, I want to see two high ranked OU titans build teams that have Gliscor but no Ghold on it just to see how the community feels about Ghold being gone, but Gliscor remaining. Ghold is the stranglehold of the hazards metagame, and it would be vastly improved with it gone. Yet everyone seems to be throwing ALL of their darts at the opposite board toward Gliscor.
You know who else gets all 3 hazards to set? Glimmora, Clodsire, Quagsire, Mew, and Forretress. Yet, no one talks about them, it's always Gliscor, Gliscor, Gliscor.
Glim doesn't have anywhere near the survivability that Gliscor does, yet can still spin and apply SOME pressure with it's massive SpAtk stat.
Clodsire has many fatal flaws that Gliscor doesn't, but also has one defensive utility over Gliscor; Unaware.
Quagsire is well... Quagsire. Middling stats compared to Gliscor's dummy thiccness, but still has access to things like Unaware, Haze, and recovery.
Mew is Mew is Mew. 'nuff said.
Forretress is weaker than Gliscor by far, but only due to not having an amazing ability like Poison Heal. Forre also has the ability to spin, just like Glim.
Seriously, let's actually take some time to play around with some sparring matches using Gliscor and no Gholdengo, JUST to see how it hits for us. Yes, Gliscor wars will be a thing, but that has ALWAYS been a thing.
You know who else gets all 3 hazards to set? Glimmora, Clodsire, Quagsire, Mew, and Forretress. Yet, no one talks about them, it's always Gliscor, Gliscor, Gliscor.
Glim doesn't have anywhere near the survivability that Gliscor does, yet can still spin and apply SOME pressure with it's massive SpAtk stat.
Clodsire has many fatal flaws that Gliscor doesn't, but also has one defensive utility over Gliscor; Unaware.
Quagsire is well... Quagsire. Middling stats compared to Gliscor's dummy thiccness, but still has access to things like Unaware, Haze, and recovery.
Mew is Mew is Mew. 'nuff said.
Forretress is weaker than Gliscor by far, but only due to not having an amazing ability like Poison Heal. Forre also has the ability to spin, just like Glim.
Seriously, let's actually take some time to play around with some sparring matches using Gliscor and no Gholdengo, JUST to see how it hits for us. Yes, Gliscor wars will be a thing, but that has ALWAYS been a thing.
I said after every suspect, not quickban. almost everything you listed was quickbanned. we've only had 7 suspects counting the current one
i don't think you understand what i'm getting at here. i want to redirect the toxicity somewhere else, away from this thread and future discussion threads, by locking it for a little while after every suspect. tensions run highest right after suspect results are announced, so it would be a good idea to prevent that toxicity from spoiling other threads by creating a containment thread for everyone to rant/be smug about the bans in. eliminating toxicity altogether is not possible and will never be possible.
so what do we do about that? yes, things are not good right now. the power creep is insurmountable by normal means. we all know this. your suggestion seems to be "stop talking about it", which doesn't solve anything
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