Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Darkrai and Shaymin-S started in Uber,

they always start in ubers and they always will. this isn't exactly something that should be pointed out like it's different or new

 

[Srn]

what is this pagliacci-ass take bro. even if it were possible to go into the sv options menu and toggle global warming to "on", freezing just doesn't happen often enough to consider a ban on the entire status condition. there's no real way to abuse or exploit it like you can with all of the banned rng-related things or unclaused sleep

What competitive value is there in keeping freeze? Much like quick claw, I see no value in having it around, even if it isn't a big enough problem in practice to get rid of.

As a reminder for how potent a 10% freeze chance can be, you should try reading through the SS OU Kyurem suspect thread. That freeze chance gets brought up over and over in posts by great players because kyurem was clicking freeze dry so many times in a game that the chances for a freeze to happen were actually realistic and problematic, and was one of the reasons that kyurem was banned.

If you're gonna insult my takes, please be funnier.

I feel you are hyperbolizing a bit here. Nobody is doubting that OHKO moves are uncompetitive. There is obviously such thing as too much randomness and by definition, a competitive game cannot exist if it's completely stochastic.

I brought up ice beam freezes to demonstrate that there is baseline unpredictability in this game and that it's here to stay. There is immense unpredictability in this game, from damage rolls, to secondary effects, to every move that doesn't have 100% accuracy. All of this isn't going anywhere, because it's part of what Pokemon is. You're right that the game would be more competitive if we got rid of all the sources of RNG, but for the better or worse this isn't going to happen. I personally am not adverse to this kind of RNG because in some ways it makes the game more "exciting" as Gondre19Wedj mentioned. But I recognize that this is a matter of personal preference.

Second, I think it's important to differentiate between random RNG and the kind of unpredictability that has human agency behind it. An ice beam freeze is different from clicking an unexpected tera because one was a decision by the server's RNG and the other was a conscious decision by a player. The former absolutely detracts from the competitiveness of the game, but the latter is a more nuanced case. Playing around an unexpected move by your opponent takes skill, as does making moves that you believe your opponent won't predict. This, in my opinion, does not detract from the competitiveness of the game. And by definition, it is only possible if there is room for unpredictability.

If we wanted Pokemon to be like competitive chess, then why don't we release open team sheets on Showdown like in the VGC tournaments? We don't because "competitive" is not as black and white as you are portraying. There is skill to be had in designing unexpected sets in the builder and taking advantage of the inherent surprise factor in-game. It's for the benefit of the game that people can surprise their opponent with an Energy Ball Jellicent, or revenge kill the opponent's Dragapult with an unexpected choice scarfer, or take the time to scout opponents' sets to gain an informational asset. If that is what you want to get rid of, then it seems that we have inherently different personal philosophies on the matter.

I don't lump together evasion/freeze and teambuilding/tera as "unpredictability," I hope it didn't come off that way. There obviously is a difference in that there's very little counterplay vs evasion, ohko moves, etc but plenty of counterplay to weird teambuilding and teras. I just find it strange that some of you embrace the former, but yes, it is personal preference.

 

[Ehmcee]

Tbh, I might be alone in this experience, but a lot of the current hazard debacle seems to currently be revolving around Gliscor being problematic. I've personally not found it to be a huge threat in most games, and would almost 100% attribute the hazard stack mess of a metagame we're currently dealing with to Gholdengo.

I've had fairly good success with a bunch of webs teams, all of which that utilize offensive mons as spikers (greninja/ogerpon-w mainly), and even just doing this feels cancerous enough, paired with a balloon Gholdengo.

Teams running Gliscor also 90% of the time will be leading it, I've had great success leading with either a strong water or ice type and you usually get free hazards or switch initiative due to Gliscor protecting T1 then switching out.

 

[Alternator]

I'm gonna push back against the heart of this message here: why are we framing the inherent unpredictability of Pokemon as a good thing? This is smogon, where we try our best to make this game as competitive as possible while being faithful to cartridge. If we wanted to embrace the unpredictable nature we'd legalize double team, legalize swagger, legalize OHKO moves, and much more. It's just "competitive skill" to play around OHKO moves right? lmao ofc not. The reason we banned all that bullshit is because we do not want unpredictability in a competitive game. To the greatest extent possible, we want to minimize rng skill-free nonsense.

You bring up 10% ice beam freezes, but the only reason we haven't gotten rid of that is because there's no way to do so on cartridge. You could argue critical hits are "balanced" in a way that it punishes passive bulky set up, and honestly banning static/flame body would be great but we're not ready to cross that bridge yet.

Tera adds to the unpredictability, but that feels less overwhelming as the meta drags on and we get a feel for things. The minimal unpredictability that tera adds is not a good thing, it's just not bad enough to be the main reason to ban it anymore. That would be "too much burden on teambuilder for a healthy meta."

Nothing has ever been banned because of unpredictability alone. The closest is mons that were already borderline being pushed over the edge due to having multiple sets with different counters, and being too punishing if you guessed wrong, but those were already on the edge of acceptable.

We have banned RNG elements, but until we ban Static/Flame Body/Effect Spore/etc. then the claim that minimizing RNG is a core part of Smogon's balancing falls flat.

What gets balanced is 'pure' RNG that has no (viable) counterplay: if Swift was 90 BP and had plenty of type clones, I doubt evasion moves would be banned. Swagger could only be countered by switching, and it stopped being banned when confusion self-damage chance was nerfed - it wasn't the existence of RNG, it was the nonexistence of viable counterplay

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Much like quick claw, I see no value in having it around, even if it isn't a big enough problem in practice to get rid of.

i see three pretty compelling reasons to keep freeze around

I.) We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.

• Some exceptions exist, such Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause (RBY / GSC), but they are to be avoided as much as possible.
• Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering proposals.

III.) The onus of providing justification is on the side changing the status quo.

• The status quo can be changed in certain cases, such as new game releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-U in ORAS, which started directly in OU, unlike other 680-BST legendaries, which start in Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.

• This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
• This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
• "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.

but, y'know, that's just the tiering equivalent of the bible, doesn't really hold much water against the opinions of some guy who doesn't like ice beam

If you're gonna insult my takes, please be funnier.

and for the record, i don't think you get to decide what is and isn't funny, mr. suicide-joke-in-profile

 

[Alternator]

On an entirely different note, and this is pure theorymonning because I am not a good team builder, it seems like the combo of Ursaluna and Maushold could be a fun bit of heat.

1) Ursaluna's problems are being whittled down quickly (Flame Orb, hazards, being slow), but Maushold can provide a nice entry. Tidy Up to clear out the hazards, and then go down swinging with either Population Bomb to chunk a normal resist, or Technician Bite to take a chunk out of a Ghost type. Ursaluna gets to come in with no hazards, and not taking a hit.

2) Presuming the Maushold answer wasn't outspeeding it with a Booster Energy mon (in which case you should switch out the mouse and try again later), Ursaluna now faces down a weakened opponent. You lack the Guts boost, but for this one turn, you don't really need it; this lets you get away with not using Protect.

3) There might be a set I've missed, but I don't think anything in OU can take a +1 Population Bomb/Bite from Maushold and then a hit from pre-Guts Ursaluna.

This combo needs more support, but getting Ursaluna in cleanly and not requiring a first turn Protect seems fun.



Also, further Maushold heat, because I love seeing low BST mons shine:

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 320-378 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 390-458 (123 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Unaware Skeledirge: 204-242 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

You trade your ability to threaten Corv, Dondozo, and other Body Press mons for erasing the Ghosts.

 

[Bakugames]

I dont think this is an argument of people wanting a "less competitive game" but a more "pokemon" one. Banning tera wont make the game less pokemon, its just an optional gimmick thats not foundational to this game and will be replaced next game, but stuff like freezing, rng etc are part of what makes pokemon the game it is. We ban uncounterable, unreactable rng, like freeze in rby for being the same as an early kill unless youre a fire type, moody etc. but the rng imbued in the game is just as important as the typing chart is.

On an entirely different note, and this is pure theorymonning because I am not a good team builder, it seems like the combo of Ursaluna and Maushold could be a fun bit of heat.

ID zama is pretty good vs this, and if you run tera ghost instead, you could get caught by crunch. It cant come in after a tidy up since thats a 2hko, but if it comes in earlier or at the same time, it'll almost always win. Can even set up an id while you tidy up, which will ohko ursa with body press

 

[ianlazerbeem]

i see three pretty compelling reasons to keep freeze around

but, y'know, that's just the tiering equivalent of the bible, doesn't really hold much water against the opinions of some guy who doesn't like ice beam

Lmao at you posting that quote that mentions in the very first bullet point that freeze is worth making exceptions for

Not saying "ban freeze" (and I don't think he really is either) but don't come at Srn acting like what he's saying is ridiculous when the exact page you're pointing to directly addresses what he's talking about

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Lmao at you posting that quote that mentions in the very first bullet point that freeze is worth making exceptions for

Not saying "ban freeze" (and I don't think he really is either) but don't come at Srn acting like what he's saying is ridiculous when the exact page you're pointing to directly addresses what he's talking about

freeze clause, in the early games where freeze was effectively an instant kill. not an outright ban of freeze, or even the clause, in modern games. please stop deliberately misinterpreting my posts and official tiering policy, you're insulting the intelligence of everyone around you

 

[ianlazerbeem]

you're insulting the intelligence of everyone around you

And you're not? This is the pot calling the kettle black, you are also not engaging respectfully, and talking down to people you have no business condescending to:

what is this pagliacci-ass take bro.

 

[Srn]

i see three pretty compelling reasons to keep freeze around

but, y'know, that's just the tiering equivalent of the bible, doesn't really hold much water against the opinions of some guy who doesn't like ice beam

I asked you "what competitive value is there in keeping freeze?" and you responded with "we have to keep freeze around because we must be faithful to the cartridge" which I already acknowledged here

You bring up 10% ice beam freezes, but the only reason we haven't gotten rid of that is because there's no way to do so on cartridge.

Which is a post you quoted...You see how this doesn't answer my question?

The tiering policy I) you quoted also flat out states that exceptions for freezes have been made in the past, because unlike what you say here

there's no real way to abuse or exploit it like you can with all of the banned rng-related things or unclaused sleep

There are many real ways to abuse and exploit freezes, that's why fishing for them have been a legitimate strategy, as far back as gen 1 to as recently as gen 8. If we had any great ice mons, we'd be fishing for it in gen9 too. How do you NOT abuse and exploit free turns?

Freeze was better back then, I agree, but nothing you've said has answered the core question "what competitive value is there in keeping freeze?"

Tiering policy III) also does not answer the core question, it just says "if you want to change smth, show us why." I'm not even pushing for a ban on freeze lol.

Tiering policy IV) almost answers the question by itself, but also doesn't. Probability management is a part of the game, sure, but as policy states, we draw a line somewhere. I would say freeze checks the box of "skilled players at a disadvantage fighting less skilled players due to factors outside of their control," but not a considerable amount of the time in current gen9, as there are no great ice mons to fish freezes with.

Probability management in a vacuum is not something I consider to have competitive value, it is the positioning and teambuilding choices that make up the "management" which is skillful, and the "probability" aspect is just something you have to deal with.

So let me ask you again, what competitive value is there in keeping freeze?

Nothing has ever been banned because of unpredictability alone. The closest is mons that were already borderline being pushed over the edge due to having multiple sets with different counters, and being too punishing if you guessed wrong, but those were already on the edge of acceptable.

We have banned RNG elements, but until we ban Static/Flame Body/Effect Spore/etc. then the claim that minimizing RNG is a core part of Smogon's balancing falls flat.

What gets balanced is 'pure' RNG that has no (viable) counterplay: if Swift was 90 BP and had plenty of type clones, I doubt evasion moves would be banned. Swagger could only be countered by switching, and it stopped being banned when confusion self-damage chance was nerfed - it wasn't the existence of RNG, it was the nonexistence of viable counterplay

I feel like we're splitting hairs here: you describe swagger, evasion moves as 'pure' RNG and say they got "balanced," at the same time you say "Nothing has ever been banned because of unpredictability alone." Well what else would you consider evasion, swagger, and OHKO moves as, if not "unpredictability alone"? The scant existence of fake counterplay does not take away from the fact that minimizing RNG was the main reason Smogon banned these things. These clauses have carried over from generation to generation, I fail to see how they are not a core part of Smogon's balancing.

 

[mr.pinklives]

ice beam should increase the chance per consecutive use
so spamming has a strategy
or freeze should just be spa atk version of burn
turns are so important idk how i feel abt the mechanic that randomly allows freezes
i get that its always been a part of the game but still

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Tiering policy III) also does not answer the core question, it just says "if you want to change smth, show us why." I'm not even pushing for a ban on freeze lol.

it completely refutes the core question. there doesn't have to be any "competitive value" in keeping the mechanic, or any mechanic. i don't need to justify anything

 

[FCKNfuego]

I did promise I would disclose results from this past survey this week and while I paraphrased them on discord and in a prior post, I wanted to formally make them known (note these are all qualified, but there was only one big outlier with the general):

• Roaring Moon was a 3.68 / 5
• Gliscor was a 3.39 / 5
• Manaphy was a 3.37 / 5
• Kingambit was a 3.28 / 5
• Ogerpon-Wellspring was a 3.22 / 5
• Gholdengo was a 3.11 / 5
• Sneasler was a 2.22 / 5

This was a large part of why Roaring Moon was suspected and reflects how problematic Pokemon like GLiscor are regarded as throughout circles of higher level players.

Are we testing moon because of it being the highest scoring on the survey or a particular threshold? Asking for future reference for other surveys.

 

[Blaze_101392]

I'm sure this point has been beaten to death, but I'm really curious if Game Freak is going to be bring back Frostbite and Drowsy since they're so much better than Freeze and Sleep. I have to assume they weren't brought into this game because the two games were made at the same time, so I can see it being brought back in the future.

 

[Alternator]

I feel like we're splitting hairs here: you describe swagger, evasion moves as 'pure' RNG and say they got "balanced," at the same time you say "Nothing has ever been banned because of unpredictability alone." Well what else would you consider evasion, swagger, and OHKO moves as, if not "unpredictability alone"? The scant existence of fake counterplay does not take away from the fact that minimizing RNG was the main reason Smogon banned these things. These clauses have carried over from generation to generation, I fail to see how they are not a core part of Smogon's balancing.

I draw the distinction as randomness: if I bring a lure set, that's unpredictable but not random. If I bring an unusual tera typing, that's unpredictable but not random. If Minimize is legal, it's appear on known sets, and clicking it wouldn't be unpredictable, but it would be random.

Unpredictability can come from randomness, but it can also come from unexpected player choices, and the latter is what I mean by unpredictability alone never getting anything banned.

 

[Finchinator]

Are we testing moon because of it being the highest scoring on the survey or a particular threshold? Asking for future reference for other surveys.

If the highest thing on the survey is a 2.5, nothing will be tested. If the highest thing on the survey is >4 or even close, it may be quickbanned. But there’s no precise threshold for things like this. There’s a margin of error and there’s also council opinion that’s favored in. During this instance, Roaring Moon was clearly first and council wanted to proceed, so we did.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I'm sure this point has been beaten to death, but I'm really curious if Game Freak is going to be bring back Frostbite and Drowsy since they're so much better than Freeze and Sleep. I have to assume they weren't brought into this game because the two games were made at the same time, so I can see it being brought back in the future.

i certainly hope they will. the fact that they changed hail to snow this gen means that they aren't averse to outright replacing mechanics as basic as weather, so i think it's a definite possibility. what would really get it through to them, though, is if someone were to make a really nasty sleep/freeze-fishing vgc team, take it to worlds, and get a major upset with it

 

[Bakugames]

I wonder if roaring moon will be banned. On one hand one should never take the suspect discussion's opinion as the opinion of every voter, but I'm noticing a lot of mixed reviews on moon and its ban worthiness. I'm too busy to try and get reqs, have a lot of art to do so whatever happens happens

 

[kosecant]

Unpredictability ≠ randomness. Nothing about Tera is random, because a human is making every choice involved, from choosing what type their Pokémon should have to when they use it in a match. I’d argue it’s perceived randomness, due to a lack of information

This is something I said during the initial Tera suspect, which applies to a lot more than Tera.

Srn, I feel a reason that freeze will never be banned (besides cartridge accuracy problems) is the dangerous precedent it would set banning secondary effects of moves. Freeze can be devastating, but so can stat drops, other status, flinches etc. and all of those are common secondary effects on nearly every viable move currently. (Freeze is an entirely different beast in early gens due to functioning completely differently, and they also are allowed to be more flexible with big tiering decisions than current gen).

banning things for the sake of “removing rng” has way more widespread impact than people realize, and we’d either have to mod the game beyond recognition, or ban a frankly absurd number of things to accomplish it.

 

[Srn]

it completely refutes the core question. there doesn't have to be any "competitive value" in keeping the mechanic, or any mechanic. i don't need to justify anything

Sigh

Ok. You've failed to answer the question 2 times now, I won't ask you a 3rd time. Just tryna have a discussion on this metagame discussion thread.
Please try not to insult other people's opinions, ok? Have a nice day.

I draw the distinction as randomness: if I bring a lure set, that's unpredictable but not random. If I bring an unusual tera typing, that's unpredictable but not random. If Minimize is legal, it's appear on known sets, and clicking it wouldn't be unpredictable, but it would be random.

Unpredictability can come from randomness, but it can also come from unexpected player choices, and the latter is what I mean by unpredictability alone never getting anything banned.

That's fair, I should've been using the word "randomness" rather than unpredictability.

This is something I said during the initial Tera suspect, which applies to a lot more than Tera.

Srn, I feel a reason that freeze will never be banned (besides cartridge accuracy problems) is the dangerous precedent it would set banning secondary effects of moves. Freeze can be devastating, but so can stat drops, other status, flinches etc. and all of those are common secondary effects on nearly every viable move currently. (Freeze is an entirely different beast in early gens due to functioning completely differently, and they also are allowed to be more flexible with big tiering decisions than current gen).

banning things for the sake of “removing rng” has way more widespread impact than people realize, and we’d either have to mod the game beyond recognition, or ban a frankly absurd number of things to accomplish it.

1) We've already set the precedent of banning secondary effects of moves. Dire Claw/Relic Song already cannot put multiple foes to sleep under the current Sleep Clause. Freeze Clause also established this precedent.
2) Freeze is far more devastating than every other secondary effect you've described, and it's more powerful than sleep too.
3) Sleep clause already mods the game "beyond recognition," Freeze clause did the same, and we largely accept these as good things. Smogon should be much more liberal in banning purely random elements imo. There is no reason to keep stuff like quick claw, focus band, etc.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

i certainly hope they will. the fact that they changed hail to snow this gen means that they aren't averse to outright replacing mechanics as basic as weather, so i think it's a definite possibility. what would really get it through to them, though, is if someone were to make a really nasty sleep/freeze-fishing vgc team, take it to worlds, and get a major upset with it

I don't think that's going to happen. VGC battles in person are best-of-3 without switching teams (something I'd like to see in Smogon tournaments to see how players adapt but I digress), so if you have a really gimmicky team, like one that relies on freeze, counterplay is a lot easier to create. Sleep on the other hand is very popular. Amoonguss has been a top Pokemon for a long time and during gen 8, with dynamax legal, venusaur was extremely popular and often ran sleep powder in sun (it even won in the Senior division in 2022). Of ocurse, its busted gmax move made it very popular, but it wouldn't exactly shock me if Venusaur became a popular partner with Groudon when it becomes legal again (in like 2025).

Edit: Also wanted to point out that if Freeze did cause a major upset, GF probably wouldn't change as I don't think they're gonna do anything about the OHKO moves that became popular during the 2023 season.
Also also, Wolfe Glicke lost a regional championship because his landorus was crit and frozen.

 

[Shinto7654]

If you wanna get rid of RNG this badly, might as well go all the way and mod out the by far biggest cause of RNG shit in the game: move accuracy. It's absolutely the biggest cause of loses out of any RNG element in this game, and enough Pokemon are basically forced into using moves with less then perfect accuracy to do their roles that just using only perfect accuracy moves isn't a viable alternative

 

[That_Dwayneee]

3) Sleep clause already mods the game "beyond recognition," Freeze clause did the same, and we largely accept these as good things. Smogon should be much more liberal in banning purely random elements imo. There is no reason to keep stuff like quick claw, focus band, etc.

Adding acupressure to this list due to a personal vendetta I have against the move. Nothing happened to me facing it I just don't like watching sweeps you'd find on showdown salt channels.

 

[Ehmcee]

Modding the game shouldn't even be an option, as soon as Sleep Clause was implemented in it's current way, we're no longer actually playing Pokemon. We've created an alternative version of it to suit our interests.

We should get rid of Sleep Clause, I'm not even kidding. We're not able to play OU on cartridge and that's an issue