Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Drifting]

Anyone who thinks Gholdengo is the problem should take a look at this replay, fresh off the presses of SCL between two top players, Carkoala and Sylveon Is So Cute.

No Ghold to be seen, but still we see teams comprised entirely of Magic Guard, Flying-types and Boots, 70 turns in a 130 turn battle being Gliscor's sitting in front of one another, and maximum layers of spikes being set up by Gliscor, cleared, and then set up again without losing any health, all the while completely invalidating Knock Offs aimed at Boots users (I'd like to see Samurott or Ting-Lu achieve that).

It's not even like this is an unusual occurrence in high-ladder/tournament settings. What I described above is basically every other game, or it feels like it anyway. This Pokemon's toxic effect on the meta really could not be more clear. With 100% sincerity I believe a quickban is warranted as soon as the Moon suspect ends. Gliscor could not be more obviously the problem.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Anyone who thinks Gholdengo is the problem should take a look at this replay, fresh off the presses of SCL between two top players, Carkoala and Sylveon Is So Cute.

No Ghold to be seen, but still we see teams comprised entirely of Magic Guard, Flying-types and Boots, 70 turns in a 130 turn battle being Gliscor's sitting in front of one another, and maximum layers of spikes being set up by Gliscor, cleared, and then set up again without losing any health, all the while completely invalidating Knock Offs aimed at Boots users (I'd like to see Samurott or Ting-Lu achieve that).

It's not even like this is an unusual occurrence in high-ladder/tournament settings. What I described above is basically every other game, or it feels like it anyway. This Pokemon's toxic effect on the meta really could not be more clear. With 100% sincerity I believe a quickban is warranted as soon as the Moon suspect ends. Gliscor could not be more obviously the problem.

The only reason they're running teams like that is because of Gholdengo. These teams were not made with the knowledge of the opponent's team in mind. Without Gholdengo, you'd be much less likely to see shit like this happening because teams would be carrying more viable ways to remove hazards and more ways to break Gliscor.

Gliscor is not the problem, it is a symptom of a greater problem with the metagame. This replay doesn't show anything more than that.

 

[Cheryl.]

[Gen 9] OU replay: carkoala vs. Sylveon is so cute - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

So we just got this replay from SCL today and I think it's a pretty telling example of what this current metagame promotes. The winning team is essentially immune to hazards. Boots on 4 of the mons, and the other two are Magic Guard Clefable and Gliscor which is practically immune because of Poison Heal. The other team actually attempts to deal with hazards by having a Rapid Spin Great Tusk (that does not carry Boots) and two other mons that do not have Boots in Rillaboom and Heatran. Both teams attempt to overwhelm the other with hazard stack via Gliscor being an overly efficient Spikes setter. However, carkoala's team, lacking the crucial immunity to hazards in three of its mons, soon falls over to just how easily Gliscor can set up Spikes over the course of a game. Sylveon's team makes no attempt to deal with or remove hazards and it is all the better for it because having mons that get damaged by Gliscor Spikes is just way worse and way more high-maintenance than just giving your team Boots or having a Clef and Glis (the one exception to this in the meta is HO which moves fast enough to not care about Gliscor as much). Keep in mind, neither of these teams had Gholdengo as well, and Gliscor was still able to do it's job excellently. Get this mon out of the tier within the next month, immediately

 

[Drifting]

The only reason they're running teams like that is because of Gholdengo. These teams were not made with the knowledge of the opponent's team in mind. Without Gholdengo, you'd be much less likely to see shit like this happening because teams would be carrying more viable ways to remove hazards and more ways to break Gliscor.

Gliscor is not the problem, it is a symptom of a greater problem with the metagame. This replay doesn't show anything more than that.

I don't agree with this argument, sorry. The only viable hazard remover that Gholdengo truly roadblocks is Corviknight. With that in mind, the (likely unintentional) implication of what you're saying is that you should be forced to run Corviknight if you don't want to lose on matchup to Gliscor, which I don't think anyone wants. (As an aside, I'm not even fully convinced Corviknight is a proper answer to Gliscor, when you consider that Corviknight cannot harm Gliscor at all while Gliscor can use Knock Off and Taunt to cripple the metal bird). 70/130 turns being Gliscor sitting on itself is not a problem caused by Ghold, believe it or not

Also, as for the "running more ways to break Gliscor comment", all the realistic ways that exist are already being implemented. When was the last time you saw a Tusk running Knock over Ice Spinner? Pre-DLC, if I had to guess. Another example is the explosion in Ice Beam Glowking. All these ways to break Gliscor are already being applied in full, and of course all lose to Tera.

We have directly observable historical evidence that Gholdengo is not the one to blame for the current state of hazards and boots. Pokemon before DLC ran items other than Boots. Pivot Sneasler would run Protective Pads. 4A Zama could run Band. Lefties reliant mons like Garg and Heatran were viable. This is because former Spike Setters like Ting-Lu or Samurott were simply not capable of setting up max layers multiple times a game while taking effectively no damage and absorbing Knock Off, Gholdengo or not.

I've seen you in this thread accusing people who think Ghold isn't the problem of being "HO Brained", so take it from someone who has been playing OU for 4 generations and these days only runs teams spanning from Bulky Offense to Stall: Gliscor is one of the most warping meta-presences I've seen in a very, very long time. Targeting Gholdengo (who by the way, is one of few true counters we have for EQ Gliscor with its Balloon set), would really not help much, if at all.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Anyone who thinks Gholdengo is the problem should take a look at this replay, fresh off the presses of SCL between two top players, Carkoala and Sylveon Is So Cute.

No Ghold to be seen, but still we see teams comprised entirely of Magic Guard, Flying-types and Boots, 70 turns in a 130 turn battle being Gliscor's sitting in front of one another, and maximum layers of spikes being set up by Gliscor, cleared, and then set up again without losing any health, all the while completely invalidating Knock Offs aimed at Boots users (I'd like to see Samurott or Ting-Lu achieve that).

It's not even like this is an unusual occurrence in high-ladder/tournament settings. What I described above is basically every other game, or it feels like it anyway. This Pokemon's toxic effect on the meta really could not be more clear. With 100% sincerity I believe a quickban is warranted as soon as the Moon suspect ends. Gliscor could not be more obviously the problem.

The only reason they're running teams like that is because of Gholdengo. These teams were not made with the knowledge of the opponent's team in mind. Without Gholdengo, you'd be much less likely to see shit like this happening because teams would be carrying more viable ways to remove hazards and more ways to break Gliscor.

Gliscor is not the problem, it is a symptom of a greater problem with the metagame. This replay doesn't show anything more than that.

they're both the fucking problem and in an ideal world they would be an immediate simultaneous qb after the moon suspect along with gambit. seriously, guys, just try it. i know, community input and volcarona and letting things settle and whatnot, but it would improve things so fucking much in one fell swoop. maybe even just remove them for like a week and see how things play out

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

I don't agree with this argument, sorry. The only viable hazard remover that Gholdengo truly roadblocks is Corviknight. With that in mind, the (likely unintentional) implication of what you're saying is that you should be forced to run Corviknight if you don't want to lose on matchup to Gliscor, which I don't think anyone wants. (As an aside, I'm not even fully convinced Corviknight is a proper answer to Gliscor, when you consider that Corviknight cannot harm Gliscor at all while Gliscor can use Knock off and Taunt to cripple the metal bird).

Also, as for the "running more ways to break Gliscor comment", all the realistic ways that exist are already being implemented. When was the last time you saw a Tusk running Knock over Ice Spinner? Pre-DLC, if I had to guess. Another example is the explosion in Ice Beam Glowking. All these ways to break Gliscor are already being applied in full, and of course all lose to Tera.

We have directly observable historical evidence that Gholdengo is not the one to blame for the current state of hazards and boots. Pokemon before DLC ran items other than Boots. Pivot Sneasler would run Protective Pads. 4A Zama could run Band. Lefties reliant mons like Garg and Heatran were viable. This is because former Spike Setters like Ting-Lu or Samurott were simply not capable of setting up max layers multiple times a game while taking effectively no damage and absorbing Knock Off, Gholdengo or not.

I've seen you in this thread accusing people who think Ghold isn't the problem of being "HO Brained", so take it from someone who has been playing OU for 4 generations and these days only runs teams spanning from Bulky Offense to Stall: Gliscor is one of the most warping meta-presences I've seen in a very, very long time. Targeting Gholdengo (who by the way, is one of few true counters we have for EQ Gliscor with its Balloon set), would really not help much, if at all.

This is total bullshit. There would be more viable hazard removers without Gholdengo and we all know it, trying to pretend like Gholdengo isn't the sole fucking reason there are maybe two actual viable hazard removers in the tier is just patently ridiculous. If Gliscor's running Knock Off and Taunt, it become significantly more exploitable because it can't run everything at once. Corv doesn't even mind getting knocked, really.

The "directly observable historical evidence" is also bullshit. Hazards have been a problem and people have been complaining since day 1 of the meta that hazards go up and they never go back down or go down only briefly before Tusk gets worn down and dies. Defensive teams were still largely running full-boots save for maybe one or two lefties mons max. Even on stuff like balance, tons of mons that would otherwise want to be running things like lefties/band/pads/etc. were often running boots on them. Dengo has been there the entire time, causing issue after issue after issue for anyone not running anything other than the most braindead of HO. And even now, many of those mons are still able to run non-boots. It's the problem, or at least a large part of it. If we weren't whining about Gliscor, we'd be whining about Ting-Lu or Hamurott or whatever other spike setter is causing problems. The problem is the one stupidly broken mon that has the unique trait of blocking all forms of hazard removal. I genuinely can't believe this is so hard for you to understand.

I accuse people of being HO-brained because they clearly are. The community has gotten so brainrotted that people see a mon survive more than a single hit and they go berserk and beg for people to ban it and call it "the most warping meta presence ever". Playing balance/stall doesn't exhonerate you from the HO brainrot that has taken root this generation. I've been harassed and treated like shit on Showdown more this generation than ever before for playing defensive teams, the toxicity against "stall" (read: defensive play) is ridiculous and you'll forgive me for assuming that generally speaking this community is hostile towards anything defensive especially now that they're used to playing in the matchup-fishing HO wasteland meta that we're in now.

 

[SDK03]

Like I’ve said before, even before Gliscor came back we had some people saying Samurott-Hisui should be banned, with it even appearing as a possible suspect option on one of the “state-of-the-metagame” surveys. Even if Gliscor is banned, people will just start complaining about the other Spikes setters that spam their hazards without punishment like Ting-Lu. And there’ll be the people complaining about Screens with how hard those are to remove and want a Light Clay/Screens ban (I gotta wonder why those are so hard to remove though, it’s like there’s something going around just casually hard-countering Defog or something).

Even if you ignore Gliscor and Samurott-H, Game Freak is still gonna give more Pokémon access to Spikes down the line, and make more new Pokémon to abuse Spikes. Trying to counteract the horribly unhealthy effect Gholdengo has on making hazard-removal a gargantuan task by trying to ban every “unhealthy” Spikes setter not only sounds ridiculous, but is just Sisyphean considering that unless you outright ban Spikes (also a ridiculous idea), there’ll still always be more Spikes setters around for people to complain about. Hell, if Ferrothorn ends up coming back I could easily see people start complaining about that and wanting Ferrothorn banned.

Hell, the only reason why Cinderace is in OU is because it counters Gholdengo’s removal-blocking (when it isn’t a defensive variant using Tera). Yeah, it checks Kingambit too, but do you really think that rabbit would still be in OU if Kingambit and Gholdengo were gone?

I can’t say this enough at this point, but Gholdengo is the core problem when it comes to not only hazards and Screens because of how much it discourages the use of hazard removal at all, just by existing. That’s extremely unhealthy. Even NatDex recognizes this. After Roaring Moon’s out of the way and Kingambit goes through a second suspect, just get Gholdengo the hell out of here.

 

[Magcargo]

And there’ll be the people complaining about Screens with how hard those are to remove and want a Light Clay/Screens ban (I gotta wonder why those are so hard to remove though, it’s like there’s something going around just casually hard-countering Defog or something).

Screens teams don't need to run Gholdengo to prevent Defog though. They can also run Hatterene, (which can deflect Defog for Screens specifically).

 

[OvertoneSeries]

[Gen 9] OU replay: carkoala vs. Sylveon is so cute - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

So we just got this replay from SCL today and I think it's a pretty telling example of what this current metagame promotes. The winning team is essentially immune to hazards. Boots on 4 of the mons, and the other two are Magic Guard Clefable and Gliscor which is practically immune because of Poison Heal. The other team actually attempts to deal with hazards by having a Rapid Spin Great Tusk (that does not carry Boots) and two other mons that do not have Boots in Rillaboom and Heatran. Both teams attempt to overwhelm the other with hazard stack via Gliscor being an overly efficient Spikes setter. However, carkoala's team, lacking the crucial immunity to hazards in three of its mons, soon falls over to just how easily Gliscor can set up Spikes over the course of a game. Sylveon's team makes no attempt to deal with or remove hazards and it is all the better for it because having mons that get damaged by Gliscor Spikes is just way worse and way more high-maintenance than just giving your team Boots or having a Clef and Glis (the one exception to this in the meta is HO which moves fast enough to not care about Gliscor as much). Keep in mind, neither of these teams had Gholdengo as well, and Gliscor was still able to do it's job excellently. Get this mon out of the tier within the next month, immediately

To actually put substance into this post: I don't believe long games are a sign of an unhealthy meta. Boots spam is an archetype and it's quite strong rn, and considering Carkoal's team had very few actual answers for Knock Off Gliscor, I wouldn't view this game as indicative of a specifically unhealthy threat; more a potent threat that wasn't properly prepared for. but it's quite funny though

 

[bhkg]

View attachment 565501

To actually put substance into this post: I don't believe long games are a sign of an unhealthy meta. Boots spam is an archetype and it's quite strong rn, and considering Carkoal's team had very few actual answers for Knock Off Gliscor, I wouldn't view this game as indicative of a specifically unhealthy threat; more a potent threat that wasn't properly prepared for. but it's quite funny though

Im looking at cars team and id like to know what likes getting knocked off booster tusk is about it nothing else does clefable hates losing its item even if its magic guard the thing about gliscor vs gliscor neutral is that eventually someone will lose there patience and cause the game to get favored into whoever waited it out longest since nothing likes to be down an item or come into glisc toxic really outside of your own gliscor.

 

[Tio Chico]

Since generations 6-8 playing most of the suspects, and always using stall/balance because it's the playstyle I'm most comfortable with when you need a long term goal.
Because I don't like the current metagame, I stayed away from suspects until this one, where I decided to see how far it went. I played with an HO on Saturday and Sunday to "feel" the meta and on Monday I made an account to get the requirements. 40-8 was my worst score ever, and all I saw in those 3 days was HO (only ONE stall team). Webs variants, occasional weather variants, but an absurd dominance of random Lead + 5 auto setup mons. Understand auto setup as everything that enters the field already having any way of increasing its statistics, be it spamming Booster Energy, Zamazenta or Kingambit abilities. Which was exactly what I was doing too.
And it was uncomfortable, I don't remember fighting for momentum in any turn, just sacrificially optimizing my current Pokémon on the field for the next one to avenge it and repeat the cycle.
And most of my opponents doing the same.
It wasn't the most fun or healthy way to play, but it was the most effective despite the depressing score.
So you go all out before your field is infested with impossible-to-remove hazards or use 6 boots (4 boots + Clefable and Gliscor).
Gholdengo is generating this polarization and is perhaps starting to become more controversial even than Terastal.
Extremely uncomfortable with the meta but confident in better days.

Defensive PPs were almost all cut in half this generation and the power creep was insane, but the culture of complaining that defensive players make the game boring still remains, while it's really just a style. "I can't dedicate a slot on my team to a stallbreaker, etc."
Filling the field with hazards is basically trying to win indirectly, I don't understand teams based on Gholdengo not being more compared and "judged" like stall.

 

[SDK03]

Screens teams don't need to run Gholdengo to prevent Defog though. They can also run Hatterene, (which can deflect Defog for Screens specifically).

Defog will affect both sides of the field even if Hatterene deflects it. The only thing “deflected” back to the user is the Evasion drop. Yeah I mis-remembered that. Whoops.

 

[Drifting]

Defog will affect both sides of the field even if Hatterene deflects it. The only thing “deflected” back to the user is the Evasion drop.

All it would have taken is a 5 second google search

 

[SDK03]

All it would have taken is a 5 second google search

View attachment 565508

Wait, it doesn’t? Damn, but still, what Screens teams out there are actually gonna run Hatterene when, you know, Gholdengo can also just completely quash it?

 

[Magcargo]

Wait, it doesn’t? Damn, but still, what Screens teams out there are actually gonna run Hatterene when, you know, Gholdengo can also just completely quash it?

Yeah. Hatterene is excellent on screens. It is very good at preventing hazards from the likes of Gliscor and Ribombee. It I'd also a fantastic cheese Wincon with CM Stored Power which is even more difficult to stop than normal because normal counterplay like encore and toxic don't work on it.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Every single time I hear these 2 being talked about I slowly melt in terms of my braincell count.

I said it once. Ok maybe I wasn't clear enough. I say it TWICE. Ok, maybe I need to be louder. I say it a THIRD TIME. Now you're just not listening. The Gliscor Gholdengo dynamic is like... good and bad. If there's no bad, what's considered good? If everyone is bad, once considered good? Or like the debate on if everything is unfair, then it's technically fair for all. Gliscor and Gholdengo are BOTH the problem. If you take either or out the equation, problem solved. Gholdengo makes the hazards Gliscor sets exceptionally tedious to face with the removal negation. Gliscor turns Gholdengo into a force to be reconned with by way of its hazards. It's very clear that both of them synergize with each other. There really is no way around it.

- Banning Gholdengo means hazard removal is 10x easier by virtue of Rapid Spin Great Tusk and Defog Corviknight -- who in itself kinda just shits on Gliscor

- Banning Gliscor makes Gholdengo go back to being a kinda meh pokemon with it not really being of much use outside of a Defog blocker

Before Gliscor spawned in, Great Tusk mopped the floor with Gholdengo. After Gliscor stepped in, suddenly you need to acknowledge the thing. Gliscor's debut in tandem with Gholdengo's persisting hazard block negation makes Gliscor an annoying little shit. So what if high level gameplay is Gliscor mirror matches that are incredibly stale? You don't really have a choice to do much else because your team was constructed in a way to handle Gliscor with Gholdengo, so you can't do much except bide your time. Likewise a Gholdengo team without Gliscor may lead to a Corviknight Gholdengo stalemate because you prepared for Gholdengo with Gliscor, and once again, you can't change your team items or moves mid battle.

Honestly I find it really sad no one can spot the clear issue here. Darkness cannot exist without light and vice versa. There's tons of examples explaining 2 things that cannot exist without each other -- except in this case, the 2 things make a problem even worse -- so taking either one out of the equation will cause the other one to suffer the lasting effects (aka the problem is solved). At the end of the day, both are causing an unfun Rock Paper Scissors dynamic -- just remove one of the rock paper or scissors. You gotta be on your toes for both, which is very obviously not healthy at all. But one on its own is fine. It's a very bad dilemma here: Do you get rid of both, or so you get rid of one? Which one do you get rid of? Do we get rid of both?

It's really sad that's what we're faced with. Honestly I'd just do the Kokoloko method and ban both then suspect them later, but this is OU so idk

 

[658Greninja]

Anyone who uses Tera as an argument as to why Gliscor is broken must realize that if it Tera’s, it will now the taking over 25 from spikes and rocks. Personally I don’t see it any different than Lando except obviously much, much more versatile thanks to Spikes. There is indeed ways around it

Run Sub or Taunt on Tusk, preferably Sub. With 72 HP and max speed, you always can Sub up against Gliscor since EQ doesn’t break the Sub, thus you can safely spin on that bitch or threaten with Ice Spinner. You can also use Gliscor as setup fodder with a Tera Steel BU set, cause Gliscor’s weak ass 95 base atk ain’t doing shit to it after a few Bulk Ups.

Defensively, Gliscor is threatened by random Ice coverage, strong water moves from Wake, Gren, or Wogre. Ghosts with Hex can threaten Gliscor, even Ghold can work fine with Tera. Taunt Torn can shut down everything minus Knock, U-Turn, etc. Balloon Tran can threaten to trap Gliscor. Not to mention there are several ways of setting up on Gliscor like Balloon Gambit, Tera Flying Ghold, Taunt on random setup mons, opposing Gliscor, etc.

Gliscor also happens to have a strong 4mss, wanting Spikes, Knock, Protect, Toxic, Taunt, U-Turn, SD, etc but never being able to fit everything.

Corv can slow U-Turn into those aformentioned mons to bring them into the field safely.

B..but what about Tera? Congrats, you may now get hit by those Spikes.

Again, by removing Ghold, you open the door for more hazard removal. Yes Corv loses to Taunt, but Gliscor also has to use up a slot for it, and without it, Corv can pretty much prevent it from ever keeping Spikes up cause of Pressure. Who the fuck cares if it can’t touch Gliscor, neither can it.

I would much rather remove a mon that has done nothing good for the meta than remove a defensive staple that can check several meta staples in one slot.

Let’s be honest, half of our meta problems are caused by Tera and we need to stop pretending it’s not.

 

[Magcargo]

I would much rather remove a mon that has done nothing good for the meta than remove a defensive staple that can check several meta staples in one slot.

But Dengo is also a mon that can check several metagame staples in one slot, including the likes of Sneasler, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, and Hatterene in addition to providing actual counterplay to Spore, Thunder Wave Spam, etc. Players claim Gambit is the GSC Snorlax of the tier, but nah, its definitely dengo with its ability to run multiple sets that provide a variety of different defensive functions, from Trick Scarf, Air Balloon, bulky NP or T-Wave, etc. which, most importantly, fit on ALL types of teamstyles to balance, stall, and offense. Saying it does nothing good for the meta is cap, when its arguably keeping the tier together.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Yesterday morning, I played a game where the first 25 turns were me and my opponent playing "Knock Off Chicken" with 2 Gliscors.

Tusk cannot remove spikes without taking a toxic and is now boxed into running Ice Spinner, useful vs only one Pokémon, and is no longer a particularly good utility Pokémon for this reason. Even if it gets its spin off, Gliscor comes right back out and gets the spikes right back up. Cinderace and Maushold remain relevant and have no problem dealing with hazards in Gholdengo's face. Gliscor now sometimes runs Ice Fang for other Gliscor. Random Pokémon slot in Ice Punch instead of better moves. Ground immunity, Electric immunity, Knock Off absorption, status immunity, and physical wall are somehow one single team slot? And can't be worn down with chip? Scapegoating GholdenGOAT, a wonderful glue Mon vs the numerous ridiculous threats in our tier, and not this absurd menace of a Pokémon that's been turning high level play into an absolute JOKE all week, because of how it interacts with ONE (1) Pokémon that is barely even viable in the tier and severely outclassed in hazard removing by the plenty of reasonable options in the tier (literally zero difference in the number of necessary/viable removers this gen than gens 4 and 5 which were before the defog buff by the way, and hazards were never considered a problem there!) is genuinely absurd cope and completely random inane tiering based on "Corv good in gen 8, surely the fact that that's not the case in gen 9 is a PROBLEM."

And before anyone says "if we ban Gliscor different Pokémon will just use spikes" - GOOD! That would be great! Because guess what, you can wear down Ting-Lu with status and knock, you can get rid of Samurott with a couple hard hits, same goes for Greninja and Meowsc, Clodsire can be burned and has a much more exploitable type, etc. Gliscor is a completely degenerate presence in our meta and we CANNOT allow completely unrelated Pokémon to be scapegoated to preserve this game-ruining demon.

But Dengo is also a mon that can check several metagame staples in one slot, including the likes of Sneasler, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, and Hatterene in addition to providing actual counterplay to Spore, Thunder Wave Spam, etc. Players claim Gambit is the GSC Snorlax of the tier, but nah, its definitely dengo with its ability to run multiple sets that provide a variety of different defensive functions, from Trick Scarf, Air Balloon, bulky NP or T-Wave, etc. which, most importantly, fit on ALL types of teamstyles to balance, stall, and offense. Saying it does nothing good for the meta is cap, when its arguably keeping the tier together.

Very well said Magcargo, I also want to add that "X contributes nothing positive to the meta" is a 100% SUBJECTIVE statement, and completely detached from logic and reason, and serves rhetorically as a barely-more-legitimate paraphrase of "I don't like facing it."

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Yesterday morning, I played a game where the first 25 turns were me and my opponent playing "Knock Off Chicken" with 2 Gliscors.

Omg this just reminded me of this random thought I have

Is it weird that everytime I think about Gliscor mirrors I just here VSauce's theme?

"I'm gonna switch out"
"Or am I" o_O
*Moon Men intensifies
Oh man the funny shit like that takes my mind off the intense, tedious and deteriorating metagame at large. You love to see it

 

[tommytt22]

A few days ago I made a post about gholdengo restricting teambuilding. In that post I said there were 4 hazard removalists who could do it in the face of gholdengo, which was incorrect I forgot about tidy up.

Here's some food for thought for anyone That thinks maushold is an effective removal pokemon in the face of gholdengo

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 214-252 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Maushold: 252-297 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Any self respecting maushold will run wide lens to take advantage of its best move, so if youre removing hazards you have to account for not being at full health. In such a case you basically have to go for a flinch to win this matchup OR tera dark but at that point what are you doing bro.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Yesterday morning, I played a game where the first 25 turns were me and my opponent playing "Knock Off Chicken" with 2 Gliscors.

Tusk cannot remove spikes without taking a toxic and is now boxed into running Ice Spinner, useful vs only one Pokémon, and is no longer a particularly good utility Pokémon for this reason. Even if it gets its spin off, Gliscor comes right back out and gets the spikes right back up. Cinderace and Maushold remain relevant and have no problem dealing with hazards in Gholdengo's face. Gliscor now sometimes runs Ice Fang for other Gliscor. Random Pokémon slot in Ice Punch instead of better moves. Ground immunity, Electric immunity, Knock Off absorption, status immunity, and physical wall are somehow one single team slot? And can't be worn down with chip? Scapegoating GholdenGOAT, a wonderful glue Mon vs the numerous ridiculous threats in our tier, and not this absurd menace of a Pokémon that's been turning high level play into an absolute JOKE all week, because of how it interacts with ONE (1) Pokémon that is barely even viable in the tier and severely outclassed in hazard removing by the plenty of reasonable options in the tier (literally zero difference in the number of necessary/viable removers this gen than gens 4 and 5 which were before the defog buff by the way, and hazards were never considered a problem there!) is genuinely absurd cope and completely random inane tiering based on "Corv good in gen 8, surely the fact that that's not the case in gen 9 is a PROBLEM."

And before anyone says "if we ban Gliscor different Pokémon will just use spikes" - GOOD! That would be great! Because guess what, you can wear down Ting-Lu with status and knock, you can get rid of Samurott with a couple hard hits, same goes for Greninja and Meowsc, Clodsire can be burned and has a much more exploitable type, etc. Gliscor is a completely degenerate presence in our meta and we CANNOT allow completely unrelated Pokémon to be scapegoated to preserve this game-ruining demon.



Very well said Magcargo, I also want to add that "X contributes nothing positive to the meta" is a 100% SUBJECTIVE statement, and completely detached from logic and reason, and serves rhetorically as a barely-more-legitimate paraphrase of "I don't like facing it."

And furthermore, in conclusion, do we really want the game of the year, Pokémon Showdown Current Gen OU, to continue devolving into:

 

[Avira]

Gholdengo is a very problematic mon due to its ability to deny hazard removal, keep Screens up, and block Status moves, which is more broken than what Mega Sableye did in stopping hazards from being set up and bouncing back status moves. On top of all that, Gholdengo actually has more raw bulk than Mega Sableye on both ends of the spectrum (If you don't believe me, run some calcs) while having almost as good of a Special Attack stat as Aegislash along with Nasty Plot and a much better speed tier. Gholdengo is basically MEGA Mega Sableye given its superior raw bulk, high offensive potential, and ability to run an item. It is way more overtuned than Mega Sableye ever was, which was scapegoated in Gen 6 'cause of Dugtrio being broken and banned in a low-turnout vote at the end of the generation. Gholdengo is basically Mega Sableye molded together with a better Aegislash.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

A few days ago I made a post about gholdengo restricting teambuilding. In that post I said there were 4 hazard removalists who could do it in the face of gholdengo, which was incorrect I forgot about tidy up.

Here's some food for thought for anyone That thinks maushold is an effective removal pokemon in the face of gholdengo

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 214-252 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Maushold: 252-297 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Any self respecting maushold will run wide lens to take advantage of its best move, so if youre removing hazards you have to account for not being at full health. In such a case you basically have to go for a flinch to win this matchup OR tera dark but at that point what are you doing bro.

+1? How did it get there? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this scenario you're calcing, the hazards have been removed, no? Maushold has succeeded at its job, no?

 

[Chilln0]

I don't agree with this argument, sorry. The only viable hazard remover that Gholdengo truly roadblocks is Corviknight. With that in mind, the (likely unintentional) implication of what you're saying is that you should be forced to run Corviknight if you don't want to lose on matchup to Gliscor, which I don't think anyone wants. (As an aside, I'm not even fully convinced Corviknight is a proper answer to Gliscor, when you consider that Corviknight cannot harm Gliscor at all while Gliscor can use Knock Off and Taunt to cripple the metal bird). 70/130 turns being Gliscor sitting on itself is not a problem caused by Ghold, believe it or not

Also, as for the "running more ways to break Gliscor comment", all the realistic ways that exist are already being implemented. When was the last time you saw a Tusk running Knock over Ice Spinner? Pre-DLC, if I had to guess. Another example is the explosion in Ice Beam Glowking. All these ways to break Gliscor are already being applied in full, and of course all lose to Tera.

We have directly observable historical evidence that Gholdengo is not the one to blame for the current state of hazards and boots. Pokemon before DLC ran items other than Boots. Pivot Sneasler would run Protective Pads. 4A Zama could run Band. Lefties reliant mons like Garg and Heatran were viable. This is because former Spike Setters like Ting-Lu or Samurott were simply not capable of setting up max layers multiple times a game while taking effectively no damage and absorbing Knock Off, Gholdengo or not.

I've seen you in this thread accusing people who think Ghold isn't the problem of being "HO Brained", so take it from someone who has been playing OU for 4 generations and these days only runs teams spanning from Bulky Offense to Stall: Gliscor is one of the most warping meta-presences I've seen in a very, very long time. Targeting Gholdengo (who by the way, is one of few true counters we have for EQ Gliscor with its Balloon set), would really not help much, if at all.

Knock Off and Taunt Gliscor? Like yeah sure you’d fuck Corv over but you’re also running a bad set. In fact, it also makes you much worse into Tusk, because you can’t run Toxic to punish it.

More importantly, I’m not gonna accept this rewriting of history of people saying that “hazards weren’t a big issue until Gliscor”. Remember the first few months of Pre-HOME? Even when ludicrous shit like Chi-yu, Chien-Pao, and Shed Tail were legal hazard stack was so stupid to deal with. It wasn’t until Cinderace became available when hazard stacking teams became managable.

Also the “forcing every team to run Corv” argument is really funny considering for the longest time teams were being forced to run Tusk if they wanted to remove hazards

If Gliscor gets banned and not Gholdengo, the meta will be the exact fucking same except slightly worse without Gliscor being around as a blanket physical wall. Those teams that used Gliscor for Spikes will just use something like Ting Lu or Clodsire instead.

This seems weird to ask but what exactly makes Gliscor so uniquely problematic as a Spike setter? A Pokémon like Skarmory for example has never been considered problematic for “setting Spikes too easily throughout the game”. Keep in mind that Skarmory is a Pokémon that:

1. Has better physical defense than Gliscor
2. Has reliable recovery, something Gliscor currently doesn’t have
3. Has existed in metas with far less hazard removal options than Gen 9 would have without Gholdengo
4. Hasn‘t even always been the best Spikes setter

Skarmory is poised to return in DLC2 so I have to ask: If Skarmory was just made available in the current meta for no reason, would it be banworthy? According to the same philosophy used against Gliscor, apparently yes.