Ok after reading and responding to the posts and deliberating on the question I have had a change of mind. I don't believe Gliscor is broken in the conventional sense that it has no counters but I do believe that it is having an unhealthy effect on the meta and while I do thing that part of that comes from the presence of the golden boy who shall not be named, Gliscor still definetly plays a role and the fact that it can keep spiking with nothing really punishing it really makes it obnoxious. The thing that really pushed me to the edge was when I thought about what Gliscor does for the meta rather than against the meta and I can't really think of many positives it brings. It fulfills many roles but those roles can be fulfilled by other pokemon in a way that isn't so restrictive on team building. Maybe once the next DLC comes out and maybe more pokemon will get defog Gliscor may be tested in OU again but until then I think I'll be voting to ban
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np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]
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I'd vote ban on Gliscor.
It's an unusual mon because it isn't, I guess, traditionally broken. Unlike most of the other Gen 9 OU bans, Gliscor is not going to set up and 6-0 your team (outside of SD Gliscor, which I don't think is broken). I'd argue that it is banworthy based on it being too centralizing. If you don't have a Gliscor on your team you're playing at a disadvantage, and if you don't prep heavily for Gliscor you'll likely lose. I'd agree with others that it has a negative influence on the tier.
I think the problem is that it is dominant in a couple of roles. Obviously, it is the best hazard setter in the tier, as it can get endless layers of spikes up with the longevity that poison heal provides. This is probably its most broken aspect. However, it is also the best toxic user in the tier. Arguably, it is the best status spreading pokemon in OU (competing with with Cinderace wisp and Zapdos paralysis).
On top of that, Gliscor is the best switch in to...Gliscor. Standard set Gliscor basically wall each other, since they are immune to earthquake and toxic, and don't particularly mind knock off. Gliscor is immune to spikes, so it doesn't mind coming in on hazards. Gliscor v Gliscor is a pretty terrible interaction, as the only thing they can really do is set up spikes and poison heal back to full heath.
Gliscor is also a premier knock off absorber, has two immunities, and has stab earthquake+toxic coverage which gives it decent options against most of the tier. Unlike most of the other hazard setters, it is very easy to get Gliscor in and start clicking spikes. It has extreme longevity compared to all of the other setters in the tier. Ting Lu and Samurott can reliably get a few layers of spikes, but they do so at the cost of their health, and neither has reliable methods of recovery. Yes, Ting Lu can get up full spikes, and you may have to outplay a Gholdengo to clear them, however, once the hazards are removed, they probably aren't going back up. Gliscor can set them up all day.
In conjunction with Gholdengo's spinblocking, spikes might as well permanantly be on the field. However, even ignoring Gholdengo, I think Gliscor's hazard setting ability is broken. It is just too good at this role, and makes spikes the dominant aspect of the metagame, which I don't think is ideal. IMO, Gliscor should be removed first, and then Gholdengo can be properly evaluated.
Additionally, toxic makes Gliscor so much harder to deal with than the other spikers. Spinners, like Great Tusk, really don't want to take a toxic. It is also very hard to surpise Gliscor and knock it out with an unexpected move. It only has a couple weaknesses, gets passive healing, and can use protect to scout (while recovering). Although Gliscor isn't tera dependent, it can tera into something random if it is facing an obvious threat. If you lose the wrong pokemon, Gliscor might become unbreakable.
The crazy thing is that almost everything I've written applies to standard set Gliscor. This isn't a pokemon with heavy 4MSS. With some banned pokemon, the issue is that it is too difficult to predict which dangerous set it is running. Although Gliscor can run a few sets, its most broken one is its simple, most predictable set: protect/EQ/spikes/toxic. You don't lose to gliscor because you mispredict its tera. You lose to gliscor because it sets up a million spikes and spreads toxic through your team. It is obvious, but still very difficult to stop.
Some might be hesitent to ban Gliscor, as it has been in many previous generations of OU, and has never been particularly close to broken. In most ways, it is the same mon, and it even lost roost. However, spikes just works so well on Gliscor specifically, to the point that it has turned out to be a crazy buff. Spikes let Gliscor make so much progress in almost all situations, and, combined with toxic and reliable healing, this pushes it over the top.
It's an unusual mon because it isn't, I guess, traditionally broken. Unlike most of the other Gen 9 OU bans, Gliscor is not going to set up and 6-0 your team (outside of SD Gliscor, which I don't think is broken). I'd argue that it is banworthy based on it being too centralizing. If you don't have a Gliscor on your team you're playing at a disadvantage, and if you don't prep heavily for Gliscor you'll likely lose. I'd agree with others that it has a negative influence on the tier.
I think the problem is that it is dominant in a couple of roles. Obviously, it is the best hazard setter in the tier, as it can get endless layers of spikes up with the longevity that poison heal provides. This is probably its most broken aspect. However, it is also the best toxic user in the tier. Arguably, it is the best status spreading pokemon in OU (competing with with Cinderace wisp and Zapdos paralysis).
On top of that, Gliscor is the best switch in to...Gliscor. Standard set Gliscor basically wall each other, since they are immune to earthquake and toxic, and don't particularly mind knock off. Gliscor is immune to spikes, so it doesn't mind coming in on hazards. Gliscor v Gliscor is a pretty terrible interaction, as the only thing they can really do is set up spikes and poison heal back to full heath.
Gliscor is also a premier knock off absorber, has two immunities, and has stab earthquake+toxic coverage which gives it decent options against most of the tier. Unlike most of the other hazard setters, it is very easy to get Gliscor in and start clicking spikes. It has extreme longevity compared to all of the other setters in the tier. Ting Lu and Samurott can reliably get a few layers of spikes, but they do so at the cost of their health, and neither has reliable methods of recovery. Yes, Ting Lu can get up full spikes, and you may have to outplay a Gholdengo to clear them, however, once the hazards are removed, they probably aren't going back up. Gliscor can set them up all day.
In conjunction with Gholdengo's spinblocking, spikes might as well permanantly be on the field. However, even ignoring Gholdengo, I think Gliscor's hazard setting ability is broken. It is just too good at this role, and makes spikes the dominant aspect of the metagame, which I don't think is ideal. IMO, Gliscor should be removed first, and then Gholdengo can be properly evaluated.
Additionally, toxic makes Gliscor so much harder to deal with than the other spikers. Spinners, like Great Tusk, really don't want to take a toxic. It is also very hard to surpise Gliscor and knock it out with an unexpected move. It only has a couple weaknesses, gets passive healing, and can use protect to scout (while recovering). Although Gliscor isn't tera dependent, it can tera into something random if it is facing an obvious threat. If you lose the wrong pokemon, Gliscor might become unbreakable.
The crazy thing is that almost everything I've written applies to standard set Gliscor. This isn't a pokemon with heavy 4MSS. With some banned pokemon, the issue is that it is too difficult to predict which dangerous set it is running. Although Gliscor can run a few sets, its most broken one is its simple, most predictable set: protect/EQ/spikes/toxic. You don't lose to gliscor because you mispredict its tera. You lose to gliscor because it sets up a million spikes and spreads toxic through your team. It is obvious, but still very difficult to stop.
Some might be hesitent to ban Gliscor, as it has been in many previous generations of OU, and has never been particularly close to broken. In most ways, it is the same mon, and it even lost roost. However, spikes just works so well on Gliscor specifically, to the point that it has turned out to be a crazy buff. Spikes let Gliscor make so much progress in almost all situations, and, combined with toxic and reliable healing, this pushes it over the top.
I never actually checked on how this suspect was going until now. Figured I'd drop by since the metagame discussion thread got locked due to people being really really stupid. Did not think this would be more of a warzone.
Alright, sniping aside, I am here to give my treatise on why Gliscor needs to get the hell out of OU.
1: Gliscor is a hazard setter in a meta with Gholdengo.
Before this gets removed: I'm not talking about why Gholdengo should be banned instead. I think they totally both should be banned, but this post is about Gliscor, I promise. It's just impossible not to talk about how good a hazard setter in OU is without also mentioning how Gholdengo makes hazards much stronger than they already are. This is why stall teams run nothing but HDB and Ribombee is OU by usage. Nothing new here, not a point particularly worth dwelling on nor one anyone would argue against. Just worth mentioning that Gliscor's a great abuser in particular because it gets three choices of hazards to set and can compliment any other setter with less options like H-Samurott or Ting-Lu. However...
2: Gliscor is a hazard setter that does not need Gholdengo to be extremely good.
Surprise! There are plenty of teams that run one and not the other. Even if Gholdengo had been quickbanned before now, I'd still say Gliscor is banworthy. Gliscor's so bulky between its amazing defensive typing, very high base Defense, and Poison Heal giving it double Leftovers and status immunity that it really doesn't care if its hazards are removed. It can just come back in and set up everything again, often in the face of the hazard removers who have to choose between threatening it out or dealing with its hazards. Not helping is that Gliscor has a favorable matchup against every hazard removal option in OU right now, and those options often need to make themselves worse in general to deal with Gliscor better, i.e. Tera Ice Great Tusk with Ice Spinner being an actual honest to god legit metagame adaptation. Gholdengo just makes Gliscor's job easier. Even without this partner, it would only be slightly less effective at its job than it is now.
3: Gliscor isn't just a hazard setter.
The fact that it is one at all kinda stifles this point from being expressed because Gholdengo is also on everyone's minds right now, but let's not forget Gliscor has more sets than Toxic/Protect/Spikes/Earthquake. Even with the loss of Roost and Defog, this thing's movepool is huge by SV standards. Swords Dance? This thing outspeeds everything after a Sticky Web speed drop, so sure, go nuts. It's even got high-power coverage with Facade, Gunk Shot, and Crabhammer to threaten and sweep with. Knock Off speaks for itself. Dual Wingbeat breaks Focus Sash. Taunt stops opposing setup. As mentioned, it gets Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock, so it can pair with any other hazard setter to compliment them by picking up whichever one they don't have, and thanks to its great defenses, it can often fit one into offensive sets just for funsies without losing much in a tradeoff. Gliscor does a ton and can fit on the majority of teams, and it doesn't really suffer from 4MSS because any combination of these with an appropriate EV spread is going to function perfectly fine. And another reason it fits everywhere is...
4: Gliscor's counterplay is disproportionally hard to produce in SV OU.
Gliscor has been OU every generation it's appeared in, but never overpowered or a top tier threat you'd see every other game. Easy to see why. Even though it has incredible stat distribution, movepool, and typing, its Special Defense is mediocre and it has two weaknesses, 2x to Water and 4x to Ice, that are common attacking types with a Special lean to them. Just slap something with Ice Beam or Hydro Pump onto your team and you've got a Gliscor check. So... what can do that in SV OU? Here's every* OU mon and lower tier mon with an OU analysis who can hit Gliscor super effectively through its Special Defense, excluding obvious shitmons like Masquerain, and using the usual max HP/Def set for Gliscor in reference to the damage it takes:
*Evvery mon whose Special Attack is their higher/primary attacking stat or at least has one high enough to use. Yes, Dondozo gets Hydro Pump. No, I'm not covering it.
The astute reader will see there's a couple recurring phrases in this list. The majority of what's here has one or several of some problems: it can't check Gliscor safely, it only checks slow sets and not faster offensive ones, it can't OHKO it from full so it doesn't scare it out properly, or it does check Gliscor but it only fits on certain team styles. Fact is, this metagame is extremely good for Gliscor. It just so happens that the things it doesn't like are unpopular. Even though it's not doing anything new, it's doing it better than ever because its drawbacks have been heavily minimized.
Also, y'know. Tera and such. Gliscor is only 4x weak to Ice if it wants to be. Tera is a huge buff in particular to mons balanced by having a 4x weakness, like we so often see with Kingambit. You don't typically want to blow Tera on Gliscor, but you totally can.
In conclusion: Gliscor is not going to look banworthy to some people because it's not like all the other bans we've had so far, where it's a broken offensive powerhouse that narrows all defensive counterplay around it. You can beat Gliscor. It (usually) won't run away with a game after a turn to boost. But it's definitely too good. It does the most, it does it the best, it doesn't need a whole lot of team support, and even though it has glaring weaknesses, it's difficult to find ways to include those weaknesses because they're either on mons with very specific niches or mons who struggle to find opportunities to check it. The metagame is bending around it to an unhealthy extent.
Gliscor's too good at what it does. The metagame is less competitive for its presence. Vote ban.
Alright, sniping aside, I am here to give my treatise on why Gliscor needs to get the hell out of OU.
1: Gliscor is a hazard setter in a meta with Gholdengo.
Before this gets removed: I'm not talking about why Gholdengo should be banned instead. I think they totally both should be banned, but this post is about Gliscor, I promise. It's just impossible not to talk about how good a hazard setter in OU is without also mentioning how Gholdengo makes hazards much stronger than they already are. This is why stall teams run nothing but HDB and Ribombee is OU by usage. Nothing new here, not a point particularly worth dwelling on nor one anyone would argue against. Just worth mentioning that Gliscor's a great abuser in particular because it gets three choices of hazards to set and can compliment any other setter with less options like H-Samurott or Ting-Lu. However...
2: Gliscor is a hazard setter that does not need Gholdengo to be extremely good.
Surprise! There are plenty of teams that run one and not the other. Even if Gholdengo had been quickbanned before now, I'd still say Gliscor is banworthy. Gliscor's so bulky between its amazing defensive typing, very high base Defense, and Poison Heal giving it double Leftovers and status immunity that it really doesn't care if its hazards are removed. It can just come back in and set up everything again, often in the face of the hazard removers who have to choose between threatening it out or dealing with its hazards. Not helping is that Gliscor has a favorable matchup against every hazard removal option in OU right now, and those options often need to make themselves worse in general to deal with Gliscor better, i.e. Tera Ice Great Tusk with Ice Spinner being an actual honest to god legit metagame adaptation. Gholdengo just makes Gliscor's job easier. Even without this partner, it would only be slightly less effective at its job than it is now.
3: Gliscor isn't just a hazard setter.
The fact that it is one at all kinda stifles this point from being expressed because Gholdengo is also on everyone's minds right now, but let's not forget Gliscor has more sets than Toxic/Protect/Spikes/Earthquake. Even with the loss of Roost and Defog, this thing's movepool is huge by SV standards. Swords Dance? This thing outspeeds everything after a Sticky Web speed drop, so sure, go nuts. It's even got high-power coverage with Facade, Gunk Shot, and Crabhammer to threaten and sweep with. Knock Off speaks for itself. Dual Wingbeat breaks Focus Sash. Taunt stops opposing setup. As mentioned, it gets Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock, so it can pair with any other hazard setter to compliment them by picking up whichever one they don't have, and thanks to its great defenses, it can often fit one into offensive sets just for funsies without losing much in a tradeoff. Gliscor does a ton and can fit on the majority of teams, and it doesn't really suffer from 4MSS because any combination of these with an appropriate EV spread is going to function perfectly fine. And another reason it fits everywhere is...
4: Gliscor's counterplay is disproportionally hard to produce in SV OU.
Gliscor has been OU every generation it's appeared in, but never overpowered or a top tier threat you'd see every other game. Easy to see why. Even though it has incredible stat distribution, movepool, and typing, its Special Defense is mediocre and it has two weaknesses, 2x to Water and 4x to Ice, that are common attacking types with a Special lean to them. Just slap something with Ice Beam or Hydro Pump onto your team and you've got a Gliscor check. So... what can do that in SV OU? Here's every* OU mon and lower tier mon with an OU analysis who can hit Gliscor super effectively through its Special Defense, excluding obvious shitmons like Masquerain, and using the usual max HP/Def set for Gliscor in reference to the damage it takes:
*Evvery mon whose Special Attack is their higher/primary attacking stat or at least has one high enough to use. Yes, Dondozo gets Hydro Pump. No, I'm not covering it.
Alomomola: No.
Clefable: Running Ice Beam on this carries a hefty opportunity cost when this thing tends to be pretty strapped for free moveslots. Also, Gliscor's faster. Even if it decides to stay in and sack, it's going to Toxic the Unaware sets or heavily chunk the Magic Guard sets.
Dragapult: Dragapult should not be running Hydro Pump, which is a waste of a moveslot in every other matchup. Granted, Specs Draco Meteor is a 62.75% chance to OHKO from full HP, but that means your opponent has handed you a free turn of setup in the wake of losing Gliscor. Switch in your Valiant or Moth or whatever else and start boosting.
Greninja: Actually a really good Gliscor answer, but it's so fragile that you can't risk coming in on an Earthquake, and the nerf to Protean has made the high-commitment Battle Bond its only option. It's going to be running Life Orb, and it's going to lose the chance to sweep unless it gets a free turn to come on. Also, not exactly an OU staple that fits easily into teams.
Iron Valiant: Neither Icy Wind nor Ice Punch can OHKO without a turn to boost or a Choice item, which means Gliscor can hang out for an extra turn to Toxic it, set up more hazards, damage it right back with Earthquake, whatever. Also, you just blew your Booster Energy doing this.
Manaphy: Just straight up a good Gliscor answer that isn't super threatened by it since it usually outspeeds. Manaphy's also scored pretty high on the last two surveys though, so...
Ninetales-Alola: Only has a place on HO teams, so this is hard to justify running. Gliscor is also the only thing it's capable of being an offensive check to and its only other purpose is setting up Aurora Veil or maybe going for a cheeky Encore.
Samurott-Hisui: Its Hydro Pump is just barely a guaranteed 2HKO with 4SpA EVs and a neutral nature, and its Razor Shell with max Atk EVs does even less damage. Also, a turn of using Hydro Pump is a turn not spent using Ceaseless Edge while Gliscor continues to press its own funny spike button, and running this makes HSam worse at everything else.
Slowking-Galar: Heavily fallen out of favor in the Teal Mask meta, Earthquake weak, and exploitable for being a slow defensive pivot trying to threaten something offensively.
Toxapex: No.
Walking Wake: Great Gliscor answer, but struggles to find a place outside of sun teams. On sun, you can exploit its Choice lock. Off sun, the opponent just blew their Booster Energy doing this.
Basculegion M/F: Never seen outside of rain, which has fallen out of style by now. Extremely one-dimensional and exploitable.
Empoleon: Can only beat the max HP/Def set if it trades out Surf for Ice Beam or gets a Competitive boost, but since it's slower, it loses to Swords Dance sets.
Frosmoth: No.
Gastrodon: Chilling Water is a 3HKO and Gliscor can Toxic it safely before switching out.
Goodra-Hisui: Actually kind of slept on IMO, but slow and Earthquake weak. Standard hazard set chunks it on the way out, Swords Dance OHKOs.
Milotic: Slow, passive, doesn't want to get Toxic'd, Scald only does around 65%.
Mew: I guess???? If you need to build Mew as your dedicated anti-Gliscor that's pretty telling.
Pelipper: Only exists to facilitate rain teams, and if you're running a rain team, your primary special attacker is not Pelipper. Also, really slow.
Rotom-Wash: Pretty good Gliscor answer, potentially even capable of burning it before the Toxic Orb kicks in, but lacks anything else to contribute to a team right now.
Slowking: This thing is ranked below the Galarian one for a reason. Actually has a better Gliscor matchup since it's not Poison type, but worse at most everything else.
Volcanion: Slow, Earthquake weak, hard to fit onto teams, yadda yadda, this list is getting repetitive, we're cutting it here.
Clefable: Running Ice Beam on this carries a hefty opportunity cost when this thing tends to be pretty strapped for free moveslots. Also, Gliscor's faster. Even if it decides to stay in and sack, it's going to Toxic the Unaware sets or heavily chunk the Magic Guard sets.
Dragapult: Dragapult should not be running Hydro Pump, which is a waste of a moveslot in every other matchup. Granted, Specs Draco Meteor is a 62.75% chance to OHKO from full HP, but that means your opponent has handed you a free turn of setup in the wake of losing Gliscor. Switch in your Valiant or Moth or whatever else and start boosting.
Greninja: Actually a really good Gliscor answer, but it's so fragile that you can't risk coming in on an Earthquake, and the nerf to Protean has made the high-commitment Battle Bond its only option. It's going to be running Life Orb, and it's going to lose the chance to sweep unless it gets a free turn to come on. Also, not exactly an OU staple that fits easily into teams.
Iron Valiant: Neither Icy Wind nor Ice Punch can OHKO without a turn to boost or a Choice item, which means Gliscor can hang out for an extra turn to Toxic it, set up more hazards, damage it right back with Earthquake, whatever. Also, you just blew your Booster Energy doing this.
Manaphy: Just straight up a good Gliscor answer that isn't super threatened by it since it usually outspeeds. Manaphy's also scored pretty high on the last two surveys though, so...
Ninetales-Alola: Only has a place on HO teams, so this is hard to justify running. Gliscor is also the only thing it's capable of being an offensive check to and its only other purpose is setting up Aurora Veil or maybe going for a cheeky Encore.
Samurott-Hisui: Its Hydro Pump is just barely a guaranteed 2HKO with 4SpA EVs and a neutral nature, and its Razor Shell with max Atk EVs does even less damage. Also, a turn of using Hydro Pump is a turn not spent using Ceaseless Edge while Gliscor continues to press its own funny spike button, and running this makes HSam worse at everything else.
Slowking-Galar: Heavily fallen out of favor in the Teal Mask meta, Earthquake weak, and exploitable for being a slow defensive pivot trying to threaten something offensively.
Toxapex: No.
Walking Wake: Great Gliscor answer, but struggles to find a place outside of sun teams. On sun, you can exploit its Choice lock. Off sun, the opponent just blew their Booster Energy doing this.
Basculegion M/F: Never seen outside of rain, which has fallen out of style by now. Extremely one-dimensional and exploitable.
Empoleon: Can only beat the max HP/Def set if it trades out Surf for Ice Beam or gets a Competitive boost, but since it's slower, it loses to Swords Dance sets.
Frosmoth: No.
Gastrodon: Chilling Water is a 3HKO and Gliscor can Toxic it safely before switching out.
Goodra-Hisui: Actually kind of slept on IMO, but slow and Earthquake weak. Standard hazard set chunks it on the way out, Swords Dance OHKOs.
Milotic: Slow, passive, doesn't want to get Toxic'd, Scald only does around 65%.
Mew: I guess???? If you need to build Mew as your dedicated anti-Gliscor that's pretty telling.
Pelipper: Only exists to facilitate rain teams, and if you're running a rain team, your primary special attacker is not Pelipper. Also, really slow.
Rotom-Wash: Pretty good Gliscor answer, potentially even capable of burning it before the Toxic Orb kicks in, but lacks anything else to contribute to a team right now.
Slowking: This thing is ranked below the Galarian one for a reason. Actually has a better Gliscor matchup since it's not Poison type, but worse at most everything else.
Volcanion: Slow, Earthquake weak, hard to fit onto teams, yadda yadda, this list is getting repetitive, we're cutting it here.
The astute reader will see there's a couple recurring phrases in this list. The majority of what's here has one or several of some problems: it can't check Gliscor safely, it only checks slow sets and not faster offensive ones, it can't OHKO it from full so it doesn't scare it out properly, or it does check Gliscor but it only fits on certain team styles. Fact is, this metagame is extremely good for Gliscor. It just so happens that the things it doesn't like are unpopular. Even though it's not doing anything new, it's doing it better than ever because its drawbacks have been heavily minimized.
Also, y'know. Tera and such. Gliscor is only 4x weak to Ice if it wants to be. Tera is a huge buff in particular to mons balanced by having a 4x weakness, like we so often see with Kingambit. You don't typically want to blow Tera on Gliscor, but you totally can.
In conclusion: Gliscor is not going to look banworthy to some people because it's not like all the other bans we've had so far, where it's a broken offensive powerhouse that narrows all defensive counterplay around it. You can beat Gliscor. It (usually) won't run away with a game after a turn to boost. But it's definitely too good. It does the most, it does it the best, it doesn't need a whole lot of team support, and even though it has glaring weaknesses, it's difficult to find ways to include those weaknesses because they're either on mons with very specific niches or mons who struggle to find opportunities to check it. The metagame is bending around it to an unhealthy extent.
Gliscor's too good at what it does. The metagame is less competitive for its presence. Vote ban.
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I can see the argument as to why Gliscor switches up on these type disadvantage, and I can see why many see that it is problematic, but the truth is that Gliscor hates losing its incredible ground/flying typing, which effectively means that it gets outdamaged by max hazards in a metagame with many of these specific hazards. I would also like to mention that terastallizing to flip type matchups on defensive walls is pretty common in the current metagame as a whole.
Yes, the swords dance sets are not terrible, but they are not as unstoppable as you would think. Terastallizing does give it extra turns to swords dance and resist common answers, but not only do you, again, lose a great typing, this is still the case with lots of setup breakers and sweepers. Gliscor faces some fairly noticeable weaknesses to specially offensive attacks, and running special defense makes it relatively easy to wear down from both sides provided you can get enough hits in. For example, if the opposing Gliscor terastallizes water on my choice specs Walking Wake to get a turn of swords dance, I can then go into a grass type such as Rillaboom to finish the job. Now, of course, this isn't a perfect example, as these two mons don't have the greatest synergy, but there are definitely different offensive synergies that can exploit Gliscor similarly to this, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring + CM Iron Valiant, Dragapult + offensive Gholdengo (yes, you need to find a way to bring in Gholdengo safely, but once you do, tera fairy Gliscor can get pushed around fairly easily), Ninetales-Alola (even the veil set does fairly well into Gliscor) + Manaphy, and so on.
I do think that Gliscor still being able to keep hazards up even without Gholdengo is the strongest argument as to why Gliscor should get banned, but I don't think that would be the case. As you mentioned, there are options like Corviknight, but there are also options like Hatterene that do well. Taunt Gliscor sets definitely could see usage, but the issue with taunt Gliscor is that it is rough trying to force actual meaningful progress with just taunt + toxic, taunt + knock off, or taunt + earthquake. In these scenarios, you give up progress against most flying types and Great Tusk without toxic, and knock off is easier to switch into without toxic or earthquake support, such as from versions of Clefable. Let's say that taunt + toxic sets are used. This would get shut down completely by opposing faster taunt mons, which are actually quite good and are definitely a bit underrated, such as from Greninja and Ogerpon-Wellspring.
Overall, I do think there are good arguments, but I feel like none of these are anything new really. Tera ghost Ting-Lu + ruination/rest does the same thing to Great Tusk (yes, it forces a tera, but when everything is taking 37% every switch anyways, that's worth it in many cases), there are many hazard setters with taunt, and there are hazard setters with incredible longevity, such as magic guard Clefable carrying knock off + rocks.
And yes, Gliscor does have lots of longevity, but even that is limited to an extent. With stealth rocks up, you do heal off the rocks damage, but it's easier to make the progress you make against Gliscor more permanent, as in order to heal up Gliscor, you would need to burn a protect (which only has 16 pp). This can be difficult to pull off, but it is definitely doable. In addition, Gliscor is prone to being set up on whenever it protects, which Gliscor does not necessarily take too kindly. Lastly, taunting it on the switch can prevent it from protecting to outheal rocks altogether and/or buy you time to go into a strong setup option or setting up yourself, as is the case with Ogerpon-Wellspring.
I've been very outspoken about how unhealthy I believe gliscor is in the past (here and here). I said on September 20 that we are nosediving into Gliscor spikes balance hell at records speeds, and here we are. I feel like rilla+sneasler offense and Gliscor balance are the only consistent playstyles left kicking.
The unhealthy effects gliscor has on the meta aren't obvious at a glance, and it is not a pokemon that will be 6-0'ing teams on its own like the over the top broken mons we've banned before. For a defensive/support mon to be banned, the rationale must be a little different than the standard offensive threats. "Is this pokemon greatly limiting and/or centralizing in teambuilder?" and I believe Gliscor fits this criteria perfectly. As a Spike setter with great matchup vs existing hazard removal, unmatched hazard resilience, and overall knock+status absorbing utility, Gliscor single-handedly limits the viable teamstyles in the meta today. Running a bulky team that isn't hazard proof is suicidal nowadays, and that wasn't always true this gen.
A common argument to keep Gliscor is "Well we're just gonna go back to Ting-Lu/Hammy+Gholdengo stacking teams." Good. That is an upgrade over the current meta. Ting-Lu and Hammy are markedly worse at getting and keeping Spikes up, are not hazard proof, and have worse longevity than Gliscor. I cannot emphasize enough how much BETTER gliscor is as a spiker than Ting-lu or Hammy.
That's the best DNB argument I've seen, and it's greatly misguided. Banning Gliscor will not fix the hazard meta instantly, but it will be a big improvement. I also don't buy the idea that Gliscor will be more balanced after Gholdengo is gone, but that is irrelevant regardless as we should only be focused on the current meta when deciding what to vote for a suspect test.
I want to use pokemon like Tinkaton, Alolan Muk, and Clodsire again. Let's BAN Gliscor.
The unhealthy effects gliscor has on the meta aren't obvious at a glance, and it is not a pokemon that will be 6-0'ing teams on its own like the over the top broken mons we've banned before. For a defensive/support mon to be banned, the rationale must be a little different than the standard offensive threats. "Is this pokemon greatly limiting and/or centralizing in teambuilder?" and I believe Gliscor fits this criteria perfectly. As a Spike setter with great matchup vs existing hazard removal, unmatched hazard resilience, and overall knock+status absorbing utility, Gliscor single-handedly limits the viable teamstyles in the meta today. Running a bulky team that isn't hazard proof is suicidal nowadays, and that wasn't always true this gen.
A common argument to keep Gliscor is "Well we're just gonna go back to Ting-Lu/Hammy+Gholdengo stacking teams." Good. That is an upgrade over the current meta. Ting-Lu and Hammy are markedly worse at getting and keeping Spikes up, are not hazard proof, and have worse longevity than Gliscor. I cannot emphasize enough how much BETTER gliscor is as a spiker than Ting-lu or Hammy.
That's the best DNB argument I've seen, and it's greatly misguided. Banning Gliscor will not fix the hazard meta instantly, but it will be a big improvement. I also don't buy the idea that Gliscor will be more balanced after Gholdengo is gone, but that is irrelevant regardless as we should only be focused on the current meta when deciding what to vote for a suspect test.
I want to use pokemon like Tinkaton, Alolan Muk, and Clodsire again. Let's BAN Gliscor.
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I’m too simultaneously busy and lazy to get reqs for Gliscor, but consider these three things about Gliscor. It’s ability to force progress, it’s ability to deny progress, and it’s strain on teambuilding.
PROGRESS MAKING
Gliscor was already a fantastic progress maker with SD, Rocks, Toxic, Knock, Taunt, and U-Turn. However previous gens had tools like HP Ice, Ferro, Celesteela, and generally more mons that threaten OHKOs on Gliscor.
Fast forward to Gen 9 and now we are at what breaks Gliscor. Spikes and Tera. While Gliscor as estalished earlier was already great at forcing progress, Spikes gives it the ability to immediately progress on all parties minus Flying types, which is obviously stackable and thus more threatening than rocks. It has pretty much become the best spike user in the tier without question, and when we look at it in comparison to other spike setters in Gen 9 and even in the past, Gliscor starts to get more ridiculous.
Ting-Lu has sheer bulk but it lacks reliable recovery and is overall much slower. Hamurott not only lacks longevity but is also quite frail. Glimmora is a suicide lead that may only get at most 2 layers in a game and sometimes it doesn’t even run them. So it is entirely possible for Tusk to be able to outlast them and spin their hazards away. Even before that, we had Ash-Gren, Ferro, and Skarm. Ash Gren suffered similar problems to Hamurott of being frail. Ferrothron is the closest to matching Gliscor’s progress making with Leech Seed + Knock, but outside of Leech Seed, Ferro didn’t have alot of longevity and often times is gone after the midgame. Skarm is the closest to matching Gliscor’s longevity, packing both a fantastic defensive typing and Roost, however it was notably more passive and sometimes had to chose between Toxic and Whirlwind. Plus it could be trapped by Magneton/Magnezone. However Gliscor not only can easily make progress, and not only can it heal itself, but it can heal itself without wasting a turn which you gotta understand is fucking huge, especially when in Gen 9, recovery pp is halved.
My main reason that Gliscor is unhealthy for the meta is the opponent has to work much harder to deny progress from Gliscor than Gliscor does making progress. You have to do so much to make sure it makes as little progress as possible in the builder which we’ll get to later. Knock + Toxic is absolutely ludicrous, on top of the potential use of Taunt to stop Corv from clicking Defog, so this isn’t just a Ghold issue, it’s a Gliscor one. Gliscor can also utilize slow U-Turn to get in dangerous threats whom also can force progress.
As Storm Zone mentioned earlier, it can also run Tspikes which synergizes perfectly with Gliscor’s ground typing. Tusk cannot outlast Gliscor unlike other spike setters, Gliscor can even Tera Ghost to completely spinblock it, yes it costs a Tera, but as demonstrated with several examples, most players are willing to do that just to keep hazards up. Same with Cinderace since if Cinder decides to Court Change, it can simply just come back in to put up the Spikes again. I haven’t even mentioned SD yet, which can win vs Clef and opposing Gliscor. So pretty much no matter what you do, Gliscor is gonna change the tide of the battle, and very easily cause of its defensive typing + solid bulk, which segways to my next point.
DENYING PROGRESS
Gliscor’s bulk, defensive typing, and Poison Heal makes it difficult for teams to make progress vs it, on top of it already being a pain to switch into. Poison Heal bounces off Stealth Rock damage while it is immune to Spikes. I have legit seen this thing go from 30% to nearly full health with Poison Heal + Protect.
Some have pointed out Gliscor’s 4x Ice weakness and its Water weakness, making it exploitable by mons like Manaphy, Weavile, and Wogre. It was also cited to be vulnerable to Hex from the ghost. None of these besides Take Heart Manaphy want anything to do with Toxic, all of these besides Wogre hate Knock, and Defensive Ghold needs to Tera to be safe vs it. So lets say you do manage to bring in your offensive threat to take out Gliscor, and oh fuck, it clicked Tera Water or Tera Dragon, now what dipshit? Setup sweepers? Hope it doesn’t get Toxic’d. Wallbreakers, Gliscor is scouting your shit with Protect or outright trading and clicking Toxic. In other words, Tera, its defensive profile, and its utility moves denies progress from the opponents side by a landslide.
IMPACT ON TEAMBUILDING
This section is all about how teams are specifically picking options for targeting Gliscor and how it hurts the viability of several other picks. Random Ice moves, Clef, Boots Spam, Ice Fang Gliscor, SZ even has a team with Tera Ice Cinder. While having a team handle a top threat isn’t always a sign that the meta is in a bad state, when it hinders the performance of certain Pokemon, that is when this sort of centralization becomes an issue. Clef wants Ice Beam to threaten out Gliscor, but that is giving up much more useful utility options like Knock, T-Wave, Wish, Encore, Healing Wish, etc. Tusk needs Sub to 1v1 Gliscor which gives up the much more impactful BU. Tran would love to have Lefties to stay in the battlefield for longer but it needs Balloon to threaten Gliscor without needing Tera, even then, Gliscor can click Knock or U-Turn out. Running Ice Beam on G-King gives up Flamethrower to hit crucial targets such as Tera Steels, Gambit, and Ghold.
Gliscor is also making things worse for other Pokes. Lando-T is pigeonhold to Sub sets cause there is no reason to run Defensive sets when Gliscor does it’s job twice as good, fucking Lando of all things is on the brink of dropping to UU. Do you how ridiculous that sounds? An incredibly versatile mon with a fantastic typing, ability, movepool, and stat distrubution to drop to fucking UU cause of a scorpion? Some smaller niche options like Tinkaton would love to be able to make progress without having a Gliscor to blank it all. Or how bout Toedscool who is a spinner that can 1v1 Ghold, doesn’t do shit to Gliscor. I had said before that Gliscor has freed up teambuilding due to covering multiple roles at once, but holy shit, I regret my former thinking tenfold. This is Lando-T if the low ladders who wanted him ban him were valid.
I highly convince you to vote ban
PROGRESS MAKING
Gliscor was already a fantastic progress maker with SD, Rocks, Toxic, Knock, Taunt, and U-Turn. However previous gens had tools like HP Ice, Ferro, Celesteela, and generally more mons that threaten OHKOs on Gliscor.
Fast forward to Gen 9 and now we are at what breaks Gliscor. Spikes and Tera. While Gliscor as estalished earlier was already great at forcing progress, Spikes gives it the ability to immediately progress on all parties minus Flying types, which is obviously stackable and thus more threatening than rocks. It has pretty much become the best spike user in the tier without question, and when we look at it in comparison to other spike setters in Gen 9 and even in the past, Gliscor starts to get more ridiculous.
Ting-Lu has sheer bulk but it lacks reliable recovery and is overall much slower. Hamurott not only lacks longevity but is also quite frail. Glimmora is a suicide lead that may only get at most 2 layers in a game and sometimes it doesn’t even run them. So it is entirely possible for Tusk to be able to outlast them and spin their hazards away. Even before that, we had Ash-Gren, Ferro, and Skarm. Ash Gren suffered similar problems to Hamurott of being frail. Ferrothron is the closest to matching Gliscor’s progress making with Leech Seed + Knock, but outside of Leech Seed, Ferro didn’t have alot of longevity and often times is gone after the midgame. Skarm is the closest to matching Gliscor’s longevity, packing both a fantastic defensive typing and Roost, however it was notably more passive and sometimes had to chose between Toxic and Whirlwind. Plus it could be trapped by Magneton/Magnezone. However Gliscor not only can easily make progress, and not only can it heal itself, but it can heal itself without wasting a turn which you gotta understand is fucking huge, especially when in Gen 9, recovery pp is halved.
My main reason that Gliscor is unhealthy for the meta is the opponent has to work much harder to deny progress from Gliscor than Gliscor does making progress. You have to do so much to make sure it makes as little progress as possible in the builder which we’ll get to later. Knock + Toxic is absolutely ludicrous, on top of the potential use of Taunt to stop Corv from clicking Defog, so this isn’t just a Ghold issue, it’s a Gliscor one. Gliscor can also utilize slow U-Turn to get in dangerous threats whom also can force progress.
As Storm Zone mentioned earlier, it can also run Tspikes which synergizes perfectly with Gliscor’s ground typing. Tusk cannot outlast Gliscor unlike other spike setters, Gliscor can even Tera Ghost to completely spinblock it, yes it costs a Tera, but as demonstrated with several examples, most players are willing to do that just to keep hazards up. Same with Cinderace since if Cinder decides to Court Change, it can simply just come back in to put up the Spikes again. I haven’t even mentioned SD yet, which can win vs Clef and opposing Gliscor. So pretty much no matter what you do, Gliscor is gonna change the tide of the battle, and very easily cause of its defensive typing + solid bulk, which segways to my next point.
DENYING PROGRESS
Gliscor’s bulk, defensive typing, and Poison Heal makes it difficult for teams to make progress vs it, on top of it already being a pain to switch into. Poison Heal bounces off Stealth Rock damage while it is immune to Spikes. I have legit seen this thing go from 30% to nearly full health with Poison Heal + Protect.
Some have pointed out Gliscor’s 4x Ice weakness and its Water weakness, making it exploitable by mons like Manaphy, Weavile, and Wogre. It was also cited to be vulnerable to Hex from the ghost. None of these besides Take Heart Manaphy want anything to do with Toxic, all of these besides Wogre hate Knock, and Defensive Ghold needs to Tera to be safe vs it. So lets say you do manage to bring in your offensive threat to take out Gliscor, and oh fuck, it clicked Tera Water or Tera Dragon, now what dipshit? Setup sweepers? Hope it doesn’t get Toxic’d. Wallbreakers, Gliscor is scouting your shit with Protect or outright trading and clicking Toxic. In other words, Tera, its defensive profile, and its utility moves denies progress from the opponents side by a landslide.
IMPACT ON TEAMBUILDING
This section is all about how teams are specifically picking options for targeting Gliscor and how it hurts the viability of several other picks. Random Ice moves, Clef, Boots Spam, Ice Fang Gliscor, SZ even has a team with Tera Ice Cinder. While having a team handle a top threat isn’t always a sign that the meta is in a bad state, when it hinders the performance of certain Pokemon, that is when this sort of centralization becomes an issue. Clef wants Ice Beam to threaten out Gliscor, but that is giving up much more useful utility options like Knock, T-Wave, Wish, Encore, Healing Wish, etc. Tusk needs Sub to 1v1 Gliscor which gives up the much more impactful BU. Tran would love to have Lefties to stay in the battlefield for longer but it needs Balloon to threaten Gliscor without needing Tera, even then, Gliscor can click Knock or U-Turn out. Running Ice Beam on G-King gives up Flamethrower to hit crucial targets such as Tera Steels, Gambit, and Ghold.
Gliscor is also making things worse for other Pokes. Lando-T is pigeonhold to Sub sets cause there is no reason to run Defensive sets when Gliscor does it’s job twice as good, fucking Lando of all things is on the brink of dropping to UU. Do you how ridiculous that sounds? An incredibly versatile mon with a fantastic typing, ability, movepool, and stat distrubution to drop to fucking UU cause of a scorpion? Some smaller niche options like Tinkaton would love to be able to make progress without having a Gliscor to blank it all. Or how bout Toedscool who is a spinner that can 1v1 Ghold, doesn’t do shit to Gliscor. I had said before that Gliscor has freed up teambuilding due to covering multiple roles at once, but holy shit, I regret my former thinking tenfold. This is Lando-T if the low ladders who wanted him ban him were valid.
I highly convince you to vote ban
I'm happy to hear that you haven't struggled against Gliscor so far. If that is okay with you, can you share some of the ways you dealt with Gliscor? I'm speaking for myself here, but it would help me tremendously as I have had trouble pressurizing Gliscor and preventing it from making progress against my team.
The turn 1 for the Gliscor team just about always follows a singular structure in high end ladders:
It protects turn 1.
It knocks turn 2 or sets 1 layer.
It continues with layers or knocks off an item.
With this in mind you starting the game off with some immediate hard hitting nuke to make it fuck off from the turn 1 you already put the gliscor from a positive situation (It gets orb proc) to a neutral/arguably negative one (gliscor is no longer on the field)
Thus there's a couple of relatively fool proof ways to fuck with the process to me.
I'll mention one to make it simple but it should apply to other Mons past the example one.
Ogerpon Wellspring turn 1.
Immediately forces tect to proc Heal. If the Gliscor chooses to run the status move Toxic and it tries to status Ogerpon turn 1 it risks an immediate Tera Ivy Cudgel which means the gliscor is incredibly dead without its own Tera. Thus the gliscor will just about always switch and not risk it unless it's on a stall team. If it is a stall team and you force out their Dozo you've essentially secured that they pop Tera pre emptively which means your X Y Z broken setup sweeper can get a cheap kill somewhere down the line (Psyshock ghold fits this description). If it's not a stall team you've essentially fumbled their whole early game by making them go to their Ogerpon check which means that you now get a free double switch to something else to apply offensive momentum.
There's bound to be more examples I am neglecting but I expect there to be more examples like it down the line if we let Gliscor remain in the tier and develop countermeasures for it.
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I'll preface this by acknowledging that I haven't been tapped into the SV OU meta much since the end of Midwest's WCOP run, and that is going to skew my perspective to some degree, but I've played quite a bit of this ladder and watched some tour games so I feel like I've got a reaasonably educated opinion.
That being said, I've found that gliscor's lack of access to roost and reliance on protect for recovery can absolutely be taken advantage of. It isn't the behemoth that can be thrown into attacks willy nilly that it is in past generations. Obviously, PH + Tect is great for longevity, but I've found that you can consistently pressure it pretty hard with rocks up, as they neutralize the first PH round and limit it to 12.5 at a time, which in turn forces it to protect every cycle. That being said, the teams that it was featured on worked together to be really annoying to deal with, and dealing with gliscor requires a level of patience that hasn't really been required in SV OU up to this point. That stall team that voltage made a while ago is pretty disgusting because glisc clef pex etc work together to wear down opposing teams, but the reason why it's so irritating/annoying to deal with is because of how the team members work together more than gliscor being an enormous progress engine. Gliscor's movepool gives it less margin of error in the past and its predictable play pattern, with it constantly being forced to protect for recovery, makes it a mon that you can use of to carve out an advantage when piloting offense against it. For these reasons I'll be voting no ban but I can see why people would want to get rid of it.
That being said, I've found that gliscor's lack of access to roost and reliance on protect for recovery can absolutely be taken advantage of. It isn't the behemoth that can be thrown into attacks willy nilly that it is in past generations. Obviously, PH + Tect is great for longevity, but I've found that you can consistently pressure it pretty hard with rocks up, as they neutralize the first PH round and limit it to 12.5 at a time, which in turn forces it to protect every cycle. That being said, the teams that it was featured on worked together to be really annoying to deal with, and dealing with gliscor requires a level of patience that hasn't really been required in SV OU up to this point. That stall team that voltage made a while ago is pretty disgusting because glisc clef pex etc work together to wear down opposing teams, but the reason why it's so irritating/annoying to deal with is because of how the team members work together more than gliscor being an enormous progress engine. Gliscor's movepool gives it less margin of error in the past and its predictable play pattern, with it constantly being forced to protect for recovery, makes it a mon that you can use of to carve out an advantage when piloting offense against it. For these reasons I'll be voting no ban but I can see why people would want to get rid of it.
i respect that opinion. i think you're right that gliscor can technically be exploited, especially if you learn the patterns and exploit the common protect turns (turn 1, turn 3, and then a panic-protect turn 4 once it realizes you just set up), but it's still too unhealthy in my opinion to keep in the tier. it just sets up spikes way too easily, lives too long, has too much utility, and the fact that it's a spikes user that's also immune to spikes basically invalidates any other spikes user
on a much less serious note, i feel like if you're going to make a no-ban argument this well-thought-out and nuanced, you should probably also put in the time to find a new profile pic for a couple days so you don't look like the most biased no-ban voter ever
Hot Take: We should've suspected Gholdengo before Gliscor. Don't ban Gliscor!
Despite all of the power creep that we have experienced in the last two generations, Gliscor is still going strong, even after losing roost. Many people want it out of OU because it's oppressive and it causes spikes to be semi-permanent. I agree Gliscor is incredible, but it's not ban-worthy, at least not for now. We shouldn't ban Gliscor because it would bring us back to the pre-DLC hazard meta, it isn't immortal, and it isn't the one that breaks hazards.
The pre-DLC hazard meta was almost if not just as bad as it is now. Ting-Lu takes 20% from special attacks, Samurott-H does a ton of damage with sharpness-boosted ceaseless edge and its other powerful moves, and other hazard setters are also extremely powerful and oppressive. The prominence of hazards has led to boots spam's rise in popularity, especially among stall, balance, and bulky offence teams that prize longevity. Although Gliscor is one of, if not the best bulky spiker in the game banning it is not the answer because after Gliscor is banned, we will go back to using Ting-Lu and Hamurott to a similar effectiveness.
If you look at Gliscor's typing you can see that it's amazing but it's 4x weak to ice and 2x weak to water. Unfortunately, there aren't any good ice types in OU other than Ninetales-A, but there are plenty of powerful water types. Gliscor's overreliance on protect makes it extremely easy to exploit, something like tera steel Haxorus can easily sweep a stall team with Gliscor and it can be passive versus other Gliscor, Corviknight, Hatterene, etc. Gliscor is walls many things but the spikes set it often passive and its more offensive swords dance brethren are non-existant and often have trouble KOing things with it's paltry 95 attack.
The main issue isn't Gliscor, but since we aren't technically supposed to discuss anything other than Gliscor, I'll keep this brief. There have been a significant increase in spikes and hazard setters in general. The amount of viable stealth rockers in gen 8 were 13, but now it's 14. Not a huge increase but let's take a look at spikes now. Gen 8 had 3 viable spikers and in gen 9 viable spikers have quadrupled to a whopping 12 spikers (Thank Ehmcee's post for the info). Another mon that wasn't in gen 8 was introduced in gen 9 and it completely invalidates Gliscor counterplay like Corviknight, this mon shall not be named and only known as you-know-who. You-know-who facilitates Gliscor and other spikers, pair this up with Gliscor's longevity in poison heal and it really puts a strangle hold on the meta.
I don't think that Gliscor is broken. You-know-who definitely should've been suspected first so we could see if Gliscor would be broken afterwards but I guess we just live in the darkest possible timeline. I would be voting no ban if I can get reqs (it's about as easy as growing wings and flying).
Despite all of the power creep that we have experienced in the last two generations, Gliscor is still going strong, even after losing roost. Many people want it out of OU because it's oppressive and it causes spikes to be semi-permanent. I agree Gliscor is incredible, but it's not ban-worthy, at least not for now. We shouldn't ban Gliscor because it would bring us back to the pre-DLC hazard meta, it isn't immortal, and it isn't the one that breaks hazards.
The pre-DLC hazard meta was almost if not just as bad as it is now. Ting-Lu takes 20% from special attacks, Samurott-H does a ton of damage with sharpness-boosted ceaseless edge and its other powerful moves, and other hazard setters are also extremely powerful and oppressive. The prominence of hazards has led to boots spam's rise in popularity, especially among stall, balance, and bulky offence teams that prize longevity. Although Gliscor is one of, if not the best bulky spiker in the game banning it is not the answer because after Gliscor is banned, we will go back to using Ting-Lu and Hamurott to a similar effectiveness.
If you look at Gliscor's typing you can see that it's amazing but it's 4x weak to ice and 2x weak to water. Unfortunately, there aren't any good ice types in OU other than Ninetales-A, but there are plenty of powerful water types. Gliscor's overreliance on protect makes it extremely easy to exploit, something like tera steel Haxorus can easily sweep a stall team with Gliscor and it can be passive versus other Gliscor, Corviknight, Hatterene, etc. Gliscor is walls many things but the spikes set it often passive and its more offensive swords dance brethren are non-existant and often have trouble KOing things with it's paltry 95 attack.
The main issue isn't Gliscor, but since we aren't technically supposed to discuss anything other than Gliscor, I'll keep this brief. There have been a significant increase in spikes and hazard setters in general. The amount of viable stealth rockers in gen 8 were 13, but now it's 14. Not a huge increase but let's take a look at spikes now. Gen 8 had 3 viable spikers and in gen 9 viable spikers have quadrupled to a whopping 12 spikers (Thank Ehmcee's post for the info). Another mon that wasn't in gen 8 was introduced in gen 9 and it completely invalidates Gliscor counterplay like Corviknight, this mon shall not be named and only known as you-know-who. You-know-who facilitates Gliscor and other spikers, pair this up with Gliscor's longevity in poison heal and it really puts a strangle hold on the meta.
I don't think that Gliscor is broken. You-know-who definitely should've been suspected first so we could see if Gliscor would be broken afterwards but I guess we just live in the darkest possible timeline. I would be voting no ban if I can get reqs (it's about as easy as growing wings and flying).
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on today's episode, people continue not reading post number 2
shhhhhhhh! we can't let the mods know
also I wrote the title before I read post number 2
are you going to elaborate on why it isnt broken or how we are supposed to pressure it? or are you just going to drop this barebones ass take and dip? because this doesnt help your side of the argument at all. at least other DNB voters tried to back up their stance on gliscor, even if some of them were rather flawed.
Yup.
why should they have to defend their position? apparently we're all too lazy to listen
people who are on the fence, take note: if you vote dnb, this is the type of person whose company you will be keeping
This doesn't really work because Gliscor can just protect to get the toxic orb activated and then switch to a counter for the pokemon. The only way it could really work would be to lead with a set-up pokemon but the opponent may have a pokemon that can actually wall your set-up mon even after boosting. Additionally, they don't have to lead Gliscor they can just switch it in later into a pokemon it walls or get it in via switch move
Yes Oggerpon-W is a check to a lead Gliscor that can punish its stalling however it isn't a full counter. It can't really switch in because it fears getting toxiced. Additionally, the opponent may not even lead Gliscor and may instead lead something that can beat Oggerpon like Ninetales-Alola or something that can both beat Ogerpon and pivot Gliscor like Sneasler or Meowscarada with protean U-Turn. Not to mention the opponent may have a mon that can beat Oggerpon-W even after a +2 like Amoongus with red card, clear smog or foul play. Oggerpon-W is just not a reliable enough way to beat Gliscor and neither are any set-up mons for that matter because the opponent won't always lead Gliscor or they may have a counter to the set-up mon. The main problem with Gliscor isn't necessarily what it does by itself but what it can do to support itself and its teammates and what its teammates can do to support it (I don't think I have to mention the steel ghost type everyone including me has been referencing in this thread) which leads to it being very restrictive on team building and overall making games less fun
Now that I've gotten reqs, I'll be voting ban on Gliscor.
From the conversations I'm hearing here, on discord, and on various youtube channels, the playerbase has decided on a binary of either banning Gliscor or banning Gholdengo (with most wanting to ban our favorite string cheese surfer bro). I will be doing everything in my power to keep Gholdengo in the metagame, which means that, unfortunately, Gliscor will need to suffer the consequences.
Truth be told, I do think that Gliscor, similar to Gholdengo is a somewhat positive presence in our metagame as a form of Status Absorption, Knock Off absorption, and as a general turn staller with Protect (which is quite useful vs styles like Sun, Rain, and TR). Gliscor itself is quite customizable with its multiple sets as well, similar to Gholdengo. I have seen several sets work, from the standard bulky Toxic + Spikes set, a utility pivot sets with Knock Off and U-Turn, and multiple different variants of the SD Set with SD + Taunt, Double Dance, and a variety of different coverage moves, Tera Types and EV Spreads. I personally like this amount of customizibility in a Pokemon (hence why I want to keep Gholdengo in the tier, which is similarly customizable). In general, I am not a fan of Toxic / Knock off users, which typically are able to play and make progress incredibly safely, but Toxic has really limited distribution this generation, and Gliscor itself helps against these tools interestingly, despite also being the best user of these tools (we'll get to the impact of that later)
My reason for banning Gliscor is less Gliscor itself and moreso its Spikes being an incredibly oppressive move in the landscape of SV. I would have preferred just outright banning Spikes instead, but that will likely not be entertained any time soon. I don't think Gholdengo is the issue. I see people speculating how Corviknight will be our knight in shining mirror armor if Gholdengo is banned against the evil Spikes Menace, but... people still run Defog Corv in a Ghold meta and not all Gliscor teams run Ghold. Defog Corv typically does fine against these teams and it does quite well vs Defensive Gliscor due to Pressure, but gameplay interations aren't entirely in its favor. For one, depending on if Gliscor runs Knock off, Corv's longevity will be inherently on a timer while Gliscor will be recovering health over time, which is mostly fine, as Corv itself will still win the 1v1 with Gliscor quite handily due to pressure, even if it has trouble making progress itself. Corviknight can also bring a teammate safely in with its slow U-Turn, though as we saw from one of aim's videos today, Gliscor can take advantage of this to set up Spikes again as Corv U-Turns out, putting it in an advantageous position imo. There is also the issue that Defog Corv in general is just very passive and hurts whatever progress your own team makes by setting up hazards, which is another reason I personally prefer running Iron Defense, which is itself a strong wincon and check to Pokemon like Kingambit.
Overall, Defensive Corv does fine enough vs defensive Gliscor, but gets completely smashed by Taunt SD, which flips the matchup in its favor by taking advantage of Corv's passivity in the match-up to set up 1-2 free Swords Dances, all while healing in the process. This set similarly smashes the next best counter to Defensive Gliscor, ...Defensive Gliscor. Overall, not a broken set in it of itself, but the fact that it bypasses Gliscor's most common counterplay is noteworthy.
As for other Defoggers, most of them still get trash'd I'd say. Mandibuzz has a rough match-up against defensive Gliscor since Gliscor has Toxic, G-Weezing with Levitate could do okay and has some utility vs other Pokemon like Great Tusk and Garchomp, but lacks recovery and if it runs levitate, also gets smashed by Taunt SD, Glimorra obviously gets destroyed, Great Tusk can win against Gliscor, but the deck is stacked heavily in Gliscor's favor, and Cinderace has some one-time use vs Gliscor with Court Change, but in general, gets completely cooked by Gliscor, whose teams are typically better equipped to deal with Hazards than Cinderace squads.
One element I find incredibly unhealthy about Gliscor are its interactions with other Gliscor. Now, this is nothing new, as I find dittos in Scarlet and Violet to be incredibly volitile and unhealthy for other Pokemon like ogerpon and iron valiant, but defensive Gliscor dittos are unhealthy in the sense that 0 progress will be made by either side, outside of 3 layers of Spikes getting set up. If you Knock off the opposing Gliscor's Toxic Orb as it switches in or on turn 1, they aren't so bad, but this is moreso a rookie / play pattern mistake that will rarely happen the higher you go up on the ladder. Switching other Pokemon into other defensive Gliscor is quite difficult, as nothing in the tier wants to eat a Toxic, most of the Steels and poisons don't want to take an EQ, and breakers don't want to eat a Knock, though EQ / Knock / Protect / Spikes Gliscor has some more counterplay like Ogerpon. It is not uncommon for Gliscors to be staring each other down for 70+ turns. Granted, dittos like this aren't entirely uncommon, as I believe Dittos in earlier gens between mons like Forretress or Skarmory were somewhat similar, but progress could at least be made by switching into something like Magnezone in those cases. Furthermore, undoing the progress Gliscor makes is quite difficult, and Gliscor will not be able to do it itself. Defensive Gliscor vs SD Gliscor is in the opposite, as SD Gliscor will sometimes be able to get two free SDs and reverse sweep the opponent, though as I said earlier, I don't find this alone to be too unhealthy.
Brute forcing past Gliscor is an option to beat it that does work quite well. Tera Grass Rillaboom and Ogerpon put immense pressure on Gliscor and can easily be difficult for it to deal with. I also find Hatterene to be a problematic match-up for Gliscor, espicially under Grassy Terrain. Random Tera Blast Ice is something I've seen more Pokemon tech as well for Gliscor. Air Balloon + Tera Flying Gholdengo also completely cooks Gliscor.
Really though, most of Gliscor's unhealthy impact boils down to Spikes being broken IMO. 4-6 Pokemon running HDB should not be the norm in the metagame and Gliscor is a big contributor to this by being the best Spiker in the tier. People may like to fingerpoint at Ghold for contributing to this as well, which is fair, but Ghold x Ting-Lu / Hammy squads are easier for our tiers removers to deal with, as it is easier to make progress vs Ting-Lu and Hammy than Gliscor, which can more than likely set up three Spikes and get back up to full with no sweat, espicially as Ting-Lu and Hammy's typings are both more flawed than Gliscor's, with our tiers removers like Tusk and Cinderace hitting them super effectively with their STAB attacks / U-Turn and forcing them to burn a Tera if they want an upper hand in those match-ups, unlike Gliscor who wins them with no sweat and is inflicting more chip damage by Knocking Off boots and poisoning the target, while being immune to chip damage itself. My opinion is certainly open to changing however, as outside of Spikes, I do not believe that Gliscor is too unhealthy for our tier otherwise.
From the conversations I'm hearing here, on discord, and on various youtube channels, the playerbase has decided on a binary of either banning Gliscor or banning Gholdengo (with most wanting to ban our favorite string cheese surfer bro). I will be doing everything in my power to keep Gholdengo in the metagame, which means that, unfortunately, Gliscor will need to suffer the consequences.
Truth be told, I do think that Gliscor, similar to Gholdengo is a somewhat positive presence in our metagame as a form of Status Absorption, Knock Off absorption, and as a general turn staller with Protect (which is quite useful vs styles like Sun, Rain, and TR). Gliscor itself is quite customizable with its multiple sets as well, similar to Gholdengo. I have seen several sets work, from the standard bulky Toxic + Spikes set, a utility pivot sets with Knock Off and U-Turn, and multiple different variants of the SD Set with SD + Taunt, Double Dance, and a variety of different coverage moves, Tera Types and EV Spreads. I personally like this amount of customizibility in a Pokemon (hence why I want to keep Gholdengo in the tier, which is similarly customizable). In general, I am not a fan of Toxic / Knock off users, which typically are able to play and make progress incredibly safely, but Toxic has really limited distribution this generation, and Gliscor itself helps against these tools interestingly, despite also being the best user of these tools (we'll get to the impact of that later)
My reason for banning Gliscor is less Gliscor itself and moreso its Spikes being an incredibly oppressive move in the landscape of SV. I would have preferred just outright banning Spikes instead, but that will likely not be entertained any time soon. I don't think Gholdengo is the issue. I see people speculating how Corviknight will be our knight in shining mirror armor if Gholdengo is banned against the evil Spikes Menace, but... people still run Defog Corv in a Ghold meta and not all Gliscor teams run Ghold. Defog Corv typically does fine against these teams and it does quite well vs Defensive Gliscor due to Pressure, but gameplay interations aren't entirely in its favor. For one, depending on if Gliscor runs Knock off, Corv's longevity will be inherently on a timer while Gliscor will be recovering health over time, which is mostly fine, as Corv itself will still win the 1v1 with Gliscor quite handily due to pressure, even if it has trouble making progress itself. Corviknight can also bring a teammate safely in with its slow U-Turn, though as we saw from one of aim's videos today, Gliscor can take advantage of this to set up Spikes again as Corv U-Turns out, putting it in an advantageous position imo. There is also the issue that Defog Corv in general is just very passive and hurts whatever progress your own team makes by setting up hazards, which is another reason I personally prefer running Iron Defense, which is itself a strong wincon and check to Pokemon like Kingambit.
Overall, Defensive Corv does fine enough vs defensive Gliscor, but gets completely smashed by Taunt SD, which flips the matchup in its favor by taking advantage of Corv's passivity in the match-up to set up 1-2 free Swords Dances, all while healing in the process. This set similarly smashes the next best counter to Defensive Gliscor, ...Defensive Gliscor. Overall, not a broken set in it of itself, but the fact that it bypasses Gliscor's most common counterplay is noteworthy.
As for other Defoggers, most of them still get trash'd I'd say. Mandibuzz has a rough match-up against defensive Gliscor since Gliscor has Toxic, G-Weezing with Levitate could do okay and has some utility vs other Pokemon like Great Tusk and Garchomp, but lacks recovery and if it runs levitate, also gets smashed by Taunt SD, Glimorra obviously gets destroyed, Great Tusk can win against Gliscor, but the deck is stacked heavily in Gliscor's favor, and Cinderace has some one-time use vs Gliscor with Court Change, but in general, gets completely cooked by Gliscor, whose teams are typically better equipped to deal with Hazards than Cinderace squads.
One element I find incredibly unhealthy about Gliscor are its interactions with other Gliscor. Now, this is nothing new, as I find dittos in Scarlet and Violet to be incredibly volitile and unhealthy for other Pokemon like ogerpon and iron valiant, but defensive Gliscor dittos are unhealthy in the sense that 0 progress will be made by either side, outside of 3 layers of Spikes getting set up. If you Knock off the opposing Gliscor's Toxic Orb as it switches in or on turn 1, they aren't so bad, but this is moreso a rookie / play pattern mistake that will rarely happen the higher you go up on the ladder. Switching other Pokemon into other defensive Gliscor is quite difficult, as nothing in the tier wants to eat a Toxic, most of the Steels and poisons don't want to take an EQ, and breakers don't want to eat a Knock, though EQ / Knock / Protect / Spikes Gliscor has some more counterplay like Ogerpon. It is not uncommon for Gliscors to be staring each other down for 70+ turns. Granted, dittos like this aren't entirely uncommon, as I believe Dittos in earlier gens between mons like Forretress or Skarmory were somewhat similar, but progress could at least be made by switching into something like Magnezone in those cases. Furthermore, undoing the progress Gliscor makes is quite difficult, and Gliscor will not be able to do it itself. Defensive Gliscor vs SD Gliscor is in the opposite, as SD Gliscor will sometimes be able to get two free SDs and reverse sweep the opponent, though as I said earlier, I don't find this alone to be too unhealthy.
Brute forcing past Gliscor is an option to beat it that does work quite well. Tera Grass Rillaboom and Ogerpon put immense pressure on Gliscor and can easily be difficult for it to deal with. I also find Hatterene to be a problematic match-up for Gliscor, espicially under Grassy Terrain. Random Tera Blast Ice is something I've seen more Pokemon tech as well for Gliscor. Air Balloon + Tera Flying Gholdengo also completely cooks Gliscor.
Really though, most of Gliscor's unhealthy impact boils down to Spikes being broken IMO. 4-6 Pokemon running HDB should not be the norm in the metagame and Gliscor is a big contributor to this by being the best Spiker in the tier. People may like to fingerpoint at Ghold for contributing to this as well, which is fair, but Ghold x Ting-Lu / Hammy squads are easier for our tiers removers to deal with, as it is easier to make progress vs Ting-Lu and Hammy than Gliscor, which can more than likely set up three Spikes and get back up to full with no sweat, espicially as Ting-Lu and Hammy's typings are both more flawed than Gliscor's, with our tiers removers like Tusk and Cinderace hitting them super effectively with their STAB attacks / U-Turn and forcing them to burn a Tera if they want an upper hand in those match-ups, unlike Gliscor who wins them with no sweat and is inflicting more chip damage by Knocking Off boots and poisoning the target, while being immune to chip damage itself. My opinion is certainly open to changing however, as outside of Spikes, I do not believe that Gliscor is too unhealthy for our tier otherwise.
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Objectively hilarious response but also reminder you are under no obligation to post here just because you got reqs. This is a board for discussion, not calling people bad at the game for thinking Gliscor is broken.
Gholdengo recieved very low results on every tiering survey and wasnt considered at all at some point... yes hazards were good but samu-h was more offensive and you have much more counterplay to that than gliscor. Ting Lu also had a much worse great tusk MU and didnt really like losing its lefties to a knock off or be spikes fother for itself as it was spikes weak itself.... chipping it down was much more easier than gliscor ever was
Boots spam was nowhere near as popular as it is now... many teams now run like 4+ boots users which is stupid
Gliscor is anything but passive.. with eq + toxic you can hit every steel and poison type for decent amount of damage and toxic hits the rest.. many pokemon cant switch into it esp the spinners... and you have a hard time wearing it down so it takes advanage of pokemon like ting lu, itself, amoonguss, non ice beam/surf slowking-g, smth like lando-t, etc.
Sure I agree overreliance on protect is expolitable but tera steel haxorus is pretty shit and corv kinda has been dropping fog lately, hat can lose over a period of the game esp with rocks + eq damage racking up or even more if gliscor is knock, and corv cna do jack shit in return to gliscor.
Lets assume we vote DNB on gliscor.... what makes you so certain we will vote ban on gholdengo... people may just decide "lol suspect kingambit instead" or many people might disagree. Then what? We should be thinking about the present not the future for the health of the meta... spending 2 extra weeks playing this meta isnt smth many want to do
yeah, considering that so many more people agreed about gliscor than gholdengo on the latest tiering survey, there's no way in hell a ghold suspect will succeed in the unlikely event that this suspect fails
Here's the issue with this thinking. The metagame HAS BEEN (and will still be) incredibly flawed when it comes to hazard control even IF we ban Gliscor. Let's think about the present of the metagame right now; hazard stack and grass spam offense.
Hazard stack does love Gliscor in terms of role compression, sure, but Gliscor is like a double-edged sword for hazard stack. Yes, Gliscor can knock off and pose practical problems, but opposing Gliscor prevents knock off from other strong utility mons you might see on these archetypes such as Clefable, Great Tusk, and Mandibuzz, as well as some other more offensive, fringe options such as Meowscarada and Iron Valiant. This is NOT to say that hazard stack does not benefit from hazard stack (which it does), but it suggests that Gliscor is not necessarily the sole drive of hazard stack; I could, as well as many others (come on now, we did the same thing before DLC) build Ting-Lu, Gholdengo, defensive core, double pivot and still get good results.
My overall point is this; Gliscor is a great teammate to an archetype that is overall unhealthy, but it isn't Gliscor's fault and banning Gliscor would do next to nothing.
Now, as many others keep pointing out, this thread is exclusively about Gliscor, not Gholdengo, but I think there is still some relevance I need to bring up here by making these two distinctions I made in an earlier post:
a) Gliscor is responsible for setting up the hazards and potentially 1v1ing Great Tusk and
b) Gholdengo allows the hazards to stay up.
Is there anything unhealthy about setting up hazards and 1v1ing options of hazard removal? Absolutely not, we have seen this in previous generations, especially with toxic being even more widely distributed. Secondly, we see this with other hazard removal in Samurott-Hisui, Glimmora, and even Ting-Lu to an extent (ruination really makes Great Tusk hate itself and tera ghost spinblocks all the same). Gliscor does similar things that TIng-Lu does but with substantially less bulk for better longevity (which, for the record, the longevity part can be emulated with wish support), but that begs the question; why should we ban Gliscor if it effectively does nothing towards the meta?
In fact, there are even potential arguments (albeit somewhat weak) that banning Gliscor could make hazard stacking WORSE. Think of how knock off got redistributed; what are the only two reliable answers into knock off currently? Clefable and Gliscor. Yes, these arguments are flawed in some ways because there are mons with knock off that threaten these, but they do help against other options. This argument is still weak, however, mainly because of the last part with there being knock off users that can get through Clefable and Gliscor, but there are some potential good arguments to this overall that I am sure someone that has strong faith in could explain better than me.
Lastly, which is another thing that people have mentioned (okay, it's going to mention Gholdengo just briefly, but it isn't about Gholdengo, please don't flame me) is that Gliscor is still a problem without Gholdengo.
Gliscor on its own has tons of counters. Think defog Corviknight, Hatterene, taunt, substitute, swords dance, etc. All of these exploit Gliscor's reliance on protect and/or toxic to effectively keep hazards up. Does your team have stealth rock? If you pair it with a setup sweeper, you can pose major problems for Gliscor by forcing it out and not allowing it to protect to heal back any damage it takes.
There is one good argument against this, however, and it is the question of "does forcing Gliscor out actually hurt the Gliscor user? You aren't making progress regardless." This is by far the strongest argument I have seen against Gliscor, but the truth is that yes, it is possible to still force progress by forcing something out. Think setup sweepers with knock off, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring, Weavile, Iron Valiant (possibly), Samurott-Hisui, Tornadus-Therian, and even mons such as Walking Wake carrying knock off and knock off Empoleon to some degree.
I would also like to mention that the format of the overall suspect kind of screws over Gliscor. We are supposed to look solely at Gliscor in the current metagame because it is a support mon meaning it relies on its teammates, even if it means Gholdengo is actually the problem, which is detrimental to the overall perception of it, but even going beyond that, there are still good arguments to keep Gliscor in the tier, which I tried to highlight above.
Overall, there are ways to actually play around Gliscor, and I don't think it is just to ban a mon that just does what other mons do, just slightly more splashable, just because it is a support mon that supports hazard stack overall.
What makes you think gliscor countering gliscor at the only way to not get screwed is healthy? that is unfun asf and not smth I want to be stuck in in a gliscor stall match because nothing else likes to switch into it.
" My overall point is this; Gliscor is a great teammate to an archetype that is overall unhealthy, but it isn't Gliscor's fault and banning Gliscor would do next to nothing. "
Why? If the best counter is gliscor itself then that is absolute bullshit then what happens when ur not running it? Smth like clef without ice beam, amoonguss without worry seed, corv with gholdengo present, great tusk without spinner, ting lu gets feasted on, and more... like what about that is fair...
What positive impact does it have besides "it also helps counter the hazard stack" which it just trades with gliscor spikes and it comes down to "who has more pp / who has less patience"
"Gliscor on its own has tons of counters. Think defog Corviknight, Hatterene, taunt, substitute, swords dance, etc. All of these exploit Gliscor's reliance on protect and/or toxic to effectively keep hazards up. Does your team have stealth rock? If you pair it with a setup sweeper, you can pose major problems for Gliscor by forcing it out and not allowing it to protect to heal back any damage it takes."
| Moves |
| Roost 99.720% |
| Body Press 68.064% |
| U-turn 66.662% |
| Iron Defense 61.186% |
| Brave Bird 45.805% |
| Defog 44.513% |
| Other 14.050% |
Yeah... totally esp when half of them drop defog. Corv cant even touch gliscor at all and at most is just able to deter spikes.... but everything else kinda loses.. we dont really have many good taunt users that want to switch into a toxic or knock off, hatt is also not a perfect counter esp with rocks + eq its taking a decent amount while also hating knock above all else, besides enamorus... what mon can really fit sub? SD lando-t? that isnt a set to my knowledge cuz just use garchomp.
If your only options are "lol just out offense it" and esp if we are also taking into account that gliscor has a phys def or sp. def spread to be able to pick and choose who to handle means its gonna be frustrating asf... esp if it decides to tera and fuck your so called "counter" over. You are also playing against a competent opponent and not little timmy and they arent jsut gonna let you go into sub enamorus on a hard swicth and they may call it out with a toxic or just double switch out and gain momentum in their favor
" My overall point is this; Gliscor is a great teammate to an archetype that is overall unhealthy, but it isn't Gliscor's fault and banning Gliscor would do next to nothing. "
Why? If the best counter is gliscor itself then that is absolute bullshit then what happens when ur not running it? Smth like clef without ice beam, amoonguss without worry seed, corv with gholdengo present, great tusk without spinner, ting lu gets feasted on, and more... like what about that is fair...
What positive impact does it have besides "it also helps counter the hazard stack" which it just trades with gliscor spikes and it comes down to "who has more pp / who has less patience"
"Gliscor on its own has tons of counters. Think defog Corviknight, Hatterene, taunt, substitute, swords dance, etc. All of these exploit Gliscor's reliance on protect and/or toxic to effectively keep hazards up. Does your team have stealth rock? If you pair it with a setup sweeper, you can pose major problems for Gliscor by forcing it out and not allowing it to protect to heal back any damage it takes."
| Moves |
| Roost 99.720% |
| Body Press 68.064% |
| U-turn 66.662% |
| Iron Defense 61.186% |
| Brave Bird 45.805% |
| Defog 44.513% |
| Other 14.050% |
Yeah... totally esp when half of them drop defog. Corv cant even touch gliscor at all and at most is just able to deter spikes.... but everything else kinda loses.. we dont really have many good taunt users that want to switch into a toxic or knock off, hatt is also not a perfect counter esp with rocks + eq its taking a decent amount while also hating knock above all else, besides enamorus... what mon can really fit sub? SD lando-t? that isnt a set to my knowledge cuz just use garchomp.
If your only options are "lol just out offense it" and esp if we are also taking into account that gliscor has a phys def or sp. def spread to be able to pick and choose who to handle means its gonna be frustrating asf... esp if it decides to tera and fuck your so called "counter" over. You are also playing against a competent opponent and not little timmy and they arent jsut gonna let you go into sub enamorus on a hard swicth and they may call it out with a toxic or just double switch out and gain momentum in their favor
"well, i'm laying on a bed of nails right now, but if i get up and move it won't instantaneously heal my wounds so i might as well stay put"
no one action is going to be the magic bullet that instantly solves everything. that shouldn't prevent us from taking actions that will at least solve some things. don't let perfect be the enemy of good
it's all so tiresome. acknowledging that you're breaking the rules doesn't absolve you from it
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