Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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oh come on, stop posting these apocalyptic calcs. People use them for the sake of the argument and they are, in the end, just plain cherry-picking.

first of all you need to SD to get your precious +2, which is not free: it leaves you vulnerable to dying, or be crippled.

second, and this is the real weakness of the weasel: if it has the wrong coverage, it’s forced to switch. You don’t want that because you lose your unburden bonus and it’s bye-bye sweep.

you all need to calm down and see how the meta evolves.

This is such a joke. Getting +1 Def right off the bat, along with unburden raising Sneasler's speed to absurd numbers meaning you can invest in Def over max speed, makes a swords dance absurdly free, even without pressing Gen 9's free setup button. What exactly is the "wrong coverage?" What comes in and walls Gunk Shot, CC/Low Kick, and Shadow Claw? Pokémon's brokenness should be evaluated with their best set in mind, not with losing because of poor moveset choices. The fact that you call Sneasler swords dancing "apocalyptic" as though it's a worst case scenario, rather than something that happens almost every time the Pokémon is sent out, makes me wonder if we're even playing the same game.

I've seen how the meta's evolved since the Gliscor ban - in fact many have, numerous games have been played since then. Guess what the dominant play style is?


Btw you want a funny calc? Here’s one:


0 SpA Landorus-Therian Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 292-344 (97 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Ok. What other matchups is Extrasensory Landorus helpful for?
 
Im just gonna leave this here:

252+ Atk Tera Grass Sneasler Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Grassy Terrain: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Sneasler @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- Dire Claw
- Lash Out
- Swords Dance

Sets up/kills would be counters and then sweeps the game assuming you have dealt with the steel types or have enough boosts.

Good viable team mate:

Magnezone @ Assault Vest / Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Body Press
- Volt Switch

Counters and deals with both Kingambit and Corviknight, also is pretty useful against many other threats.
 
Ok. What other matchups is Extrasensory Landorus helpful for?
IMG_2151.jpeg

Landorus therian is a excellent special wallbreaker in low ladder, its earth power cuts through common targets like gengar and iron treads, extrasensory OHKOs sneasler after a nasty plot an threatens kommo-o for big damage, common defensive pokemon like midlotic and alolan muk don’t want to switch into it due the immense offense pressure it applies, hammer arm is used over focus blast to hit mamoswine without having to worry about the demons curse, crunch can be used over hammer arm to hit polteageist and earthquake + swords dance can be used to stop special walls
 
View attachment 571921
Landorus therian is a excellent special wallbreaker in low ladder, its earth power cuts through common targets like gengar and iron treads, extrasensory OHKOs sneasler after a nasty plot an threatens kommo-o for big damage, common defensive pokemon like midlotic and alolan muk don’t want to switch into it due the immense offense pressure it applies, hammer arm is used over focus blast to hit mamoswine without having to worry about the demons curse, crunch can be used over hammer arm to hit polteageist and earthquake + swords dance can be used to stop special walls
If Landorus ever got a physical psychic move, it would single handedly return to number 1 usage, im telling ya
 
Ok so genuinely curious, in your mind, what's the difference between "keeping a style in check" and "making a whole playstyle unviable". Like, I think the platonic ideal everyone strives towards is a balanced metagame with lots of viable options and playstyles. Other people winning with a playstyle I don't like or think is boring isn't a problem to me, what would really suck is if I had to run that same, limited playstyle to have any competative success. So what do you think is the dividing line? How effectively does a single mon have to counter a certain playstyle before it becomes suffocating and meta-warping?

Ive thought about this a bit, heres my thoughts:

First, I do still think fat is still viable despite ghold existing. It has a really bad matchup into recover variants, but you always have bad matchups. For an example of a good matchup, fat does pretty well into grassy terrain due to being the only style that wants to run dozo. Also the nature of fat is that its a lot harder to build and the gliscor ban hit it hard. In time, I think it will bounce back as builders figure out how to make it work.

Secondly, I dont think its ever going to be possible to reach a point where every style is "viable" if viable means that it can win all other stylistic matchups in the current meta. As I see it, ghold is a really strong multipurpose wallbreaker. Its really good against fat and pretty good against offensive teams. If we were to remove all pokemon like it, to beat stall we would have to run breakers like crawdaunt, who are dead weight in other matchups. This means that one of these styles two has to be matchup fishy. Either offense needs to run a pokemon that makes it significantly weaker vs other offensive teams, or fat has to worry about potent breakers like ghold that are commonly used because of their versatility. Its hard to have it both ways.

Of course, if the meta wasnt completely changing in a month, we could have it both ways probably. With dozo gone, along with a lot of offensive threats, I could actually see fat and offense both being viable. Fat currently will never lose to physical setup mons. Period, it never happens thanks to dozo, which means that a big form of counterplay that offense has that is also good into other offense that isnt inherently overbearing for fat has been taken away in the new gen.

However, there simply isnt enough time to ban all of the broken offensive threats + dozo. The gliscor meta made me realize that I personally enjoy offensive metas, by a LOT. My biggest fear atm is that we ban ghold and sneasler and then realize "Oh crap, stall is way to powerful now. Well, have fun for the rest of the meta guys!".
 
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View attachment 571921
Landorus therian is a excellent special wallbreaker in low ladder, its earth power cuts through common targets like gengar and iron treads, extrasensory OHKOs sneasler after a nasty plot an threatens kommo-o for big damage, common defensive pokemon like midlotic and alolan muk don’t want to switch into it due the immense offense pressure it applies, hammer arm is used over focus blast to hit mamoswine without having to worry about the demons curse, crunch can be used over hammer arm to hit polteageist and earthquake + swords dance can be used to stop special walls
the funny part is, this might actually be more useful in the current meta than traditional lando-t sets. this is at least noob bait that baits noobs on the other side of the field too
 
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oh come on, stop posting these apocalyptic calcs. People use them for the sake of the argument and they are, in the end, just plain cherry-picking.

first of all you need to SD to get your precious +2, which is not free: it leaves you vulnerable to dying, or be crippled.

second, and this is the real weakness of the weasel: if it has the wrong coverage, it’s forced to switch. You don’t want that because you lose your unburden bonus and it’s bye-bye sweep.

you all need to calm down and see how the meta evolves.

Forced to switch against who? Aside from Dondozo?
 
View attachment 571921
Landorus therian is a excellent special wallbreaker in low ladder, its earth power cuts through common targets like gengar and iron treads, extrasensory OHKOs sneasler after a nasty plot an threatens kommo-o for big damage, common defensive pokemon like midlotic and alolan muk don’t want to switch into it due the immense offense pressure it applies, hammer arm is used over focus blast to hit mamoswine without having to worry about the demons curse, crunch can be used over hammer arm to hit polteageist and earthquake + swords dance can be used to stop special walls
Okay, genuine question, but why are people running extrasensory over psychic? On my nasty plot landorus with crunch, I just use psychic. Like, am I missing something?
 
Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S:
Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

1700266659451.png


EDIT: ting-lu was meant to be B, not C. i began with the lower tiers and messed it up as i added new rows
 
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its earth power cuts through common targets like gengar and iron treads,

Common
Gengar

Even low ladder it isn't.

Okay, genuine question, but why are people running extrasensory over psychic? On my nasty plot landorus with crunch, I just use psychic. Like, am I missing something?

Beat me to it. I'm also gonna say, I do think special attacking LandoT sets have genuine use in the meta to lure and beat would be answers. You could probably run special attacking pivot sets with uturn and choice of three moves. And you could probably run Sandsear for the damage and burn chance too.

Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S:
Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

View attachment 571929

Garg is far better than B what. It's especially better post Gliscor and the fact teams just aren't prepping for it like before. SamurrotH in B+? No chance. Mon is still super relevant. Heatran also is not B. It's significantly performing at high level tourney play and is a very relevant pokemon.

So much of this makes zero sense and doesn't reflect the metagame, no offense.
 
Beat me to it. I'm also gonna say, I do think special attacking LandoT sets have genuine use in the meta to lure and beat would be answers. You could probably run special attacking pivot sets with uturn and choice of three moves. And you could probably run Sandsear for the damage and burn chance too.
Although I have run sandsear storm on landorus, and don't get me wrong I think people are sleeping on this move, the accuracy is just abysmal. Like sure, 80% isn't the worst, but lando can sometimes just do nothing if it misses one attack. Also, in my like 30 games I tried it, I have gotten only one burn.
Could see use on rain teams as it can't miss in rain, maybe this is lando's new niche.
1700265278755.png
 
Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S:
Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

View attachment 571929

IMG_1162.jpeg

Clef and Mola next to H-Typhlosion and Treads.
 
Common
Gengar

Even low ladder it isn't.



Beat me to it. I'm also gonna say, I do think special attacking LandoT sets have genuine use in the meta to lure and beat would be answers. You could probably run special attacking pivot sets with uturn and choice of three moves. And you could probably run Sandsear for the damage and burn chance too.



Garg is far better than B what. It's especially better post Gliscor and the fact teams just aren't prepping for it like before. SamurrotH in B+? No chance. Mon is still super relevant. Heatran also is not B. It's significantly performing at high level tourney play and is a very relevant pokemon.

So much of this makes zero sense and doesn't reflect the metagame, no offense.
> "Garg is far better than B what. It's especially better post Gliscor"
I couldn't agree less. Gliscor was more or less a free opportunity for it to set up, since from my experience barely any Gliscor at higher ladder (my only comparison) used Earthquake at all. You'd need a dedicated Garg check like Clefableor the waste of an item Covert Cloak to stop it, and although that's still true, it's one less mon that it can click salt cure on for free or go for curse.

> "SamurrotH in B+? No chance. Mon is still super relevant."
Didn't say otherwise? If you read B+'s description, you'd see that i'm saying Hamurott is strong. However, i don't see much of it when most teams who want hazard support already want Ribombee as their suicide lead. Playing with 2 suicide leads is generally a bad idea, and playing without webs on HO is even worse. If you cast webs aside, you need cinderace, who will turn your own spikes against you, or the not so great at the moment tusk who has a hard time coming in on anything as of late and wastes a turn spinning.

> "Heatran also is not B. It's significantly performing at high level tourney play and is a very relevant pokemon."
Again, didn't say it performed well. But the fact you don't see Heatran on most teams should justify that it's not something above B that you can easily fit. It fits my description of B tier, i think.
 
Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S:
Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

View attachment 571929

why are blissey, scizor, empoleon, rotom-W, sandy shocks and enamorus-T, and corviknight below pincurchin and chesnaught? why are C rank pokemon like maushold, iron treads and iron jugulis all above weavile, breloom, ceruledge, milotic, dondozo, toxapex, meowscarada, hydreigon, garchomp, ting-lu, tornadus-T, landorus-T, etc.? why are quaquaval and munkidori so high? why is heatran so low? the S/A tiers arent quite as messy but still quite flawed in my eyes. theres just a whole lot i cant see myself agreeing with on this tier list.
 
View attachment 571932
Clef and Mola next to H-Typhlosion and Treads.
Provide an argument for the contrary? Clef and Mola are predictable and thus exploitable, only really fitting on balance. Typh-H is pretty much relegated to a sun scarfer while treads is generally outclassed by tusk in a good amount scenarios. Like i said, they are hard to justify using, but they can succeed
 
name one thing iron treads does that great tusk cant do better. what reason does it have to be as high as it is?
 
why are blissey, scizor, empoleon, rotom-W, sandy shocks and enamorus-T, and corviknight below pincurchin and chesnaught? why are C rank pokemon like maushold, iron treads and iron jugulis all above weavile, breloom, ceruledge, milotic, dondozo, toxapex, meowscarada, hydreigon, garchomp, ting-lu, tornadus-T, landorus-T, etc.? why are quaquaval and munkidori so high? why is heatran so low? the S/A tiers arent quite as messy but still quite flawed in my eyes. theres just a whole lot i cant see myself agreeing with on this tier list.
Blissey: stall/very bulky balance only. exploitable, one dimensional, needs tera for ghold, does not check manaphy, runs away from every physical attacker. stall isnt even good atm
scizor: bullet punch defog is not that valuable atm
empoleon: not great as an offensive rock setter, very bad into oger-w
rotom-w: not so fast compared to a lot of prevalent threats with not enough threat potential. bad into oger-w
shocks: decent offensive rocks lead, but glimmora is usually better
enam-t: no reliable recovery, rock weak and mostly neutralities makes for a not so easily usable defensive/bulky setup mon
pinchurchin: electric terrains are a menace, like i said in my post. they are definetely underexplored. getting the speed boost while still holding items on mons like moth & valiant is insane. since its the only elec terrain setter, by default it has to be ranked up.
chesnaught: goes VERY well against rillaboom & oger-w, good matchup vs cinderace (it blocks pyro ball), has great utility in knock, spikes, spiky shield, reliable recovery in synthesis, goes well against kingambit (threatening OHKO while being harder to KO than most)
> "why are C rank pokemon like maushold, iron treads and iron jugulis all above weavile, breloom, ceruledge, milotic, dondozo, toxapex, meowscarada, hydreigon, garchomp, ting-lu, tornadus-T, landorus-T, etc.?"
this is getting a little tiring so ill just say that they are simply better in my opinion
> "why are quaquaval and munkidori so high?"
duck is good on rain and monkey is really good on balance
> "why is heatran so low?"
B is not low. a few posts above i explain this mon's placement
 
name one thing iron treads does that great tusk cant do better. what reason does it have to be as high as it is?
denies lead glimmora and ribombee better. tusk is much less specially bulky which matters a lot for these 2 and treads' speed can result in outspeeding things tusk would not otherwise at +1 with booster speed while still being hard to ko, 252 speed doesnt leave tusk with room to work with much offense since it runs 4 atk at most
 
pinchurchin: electric terrains are a menace, like i said in my post. they are definetely underexplored. getting the speed boost while still holding items on mons like moth & valiant is insane. since its the only elec terrain setter, by default it has to be ranked up.
Although I have constructed an electric terrain team, and they are definetely underexplored, it is for a reason. Apart from quark drive users, maybe raichu alola (but it is a bad pokemon) and maybe sneasler/hawlucha, not a lot of users benefit. And if you want to abuse quark drive, just use booster energy, as that can fit on more playstyles. You're forcing yourself into a few specific pokemon. If you want to use a terrain team or sneasler, just use grassy terrain.
 
> "Garg is far better than B what. It's especially better post Gliscor"
I couldn't agree less. Gliscor was more or less a free opportunity for it to set up, since from my experience barely any Gliscor at higher ladder (my only comparison) used Earthquake at all. You'd need a dedicated Garg check like Clefableor the waste of an item Covert Cloak to stop it, and although that's still true, it's one less mon that it can click salt cure on for free or go for curse.

> "SamurrotH in B+? No chance. Mon is still super relevant."
Didn't say otherwise? If you read B+'s description, you'd see that i'm saying Hamurott is strong. However, i don't see much of it when most teams who want hazard support already want Ribombee as their suicide lead. Playing with 2 suicide leads is generally a bad idea, and playing without webs on HO is even worse. If you cast webs aside, you need cinderace, who will turn your own spikes against you, or the not so great at the moment tusk who has a hard time coming in on anything as of late and wastes a turn spinning.

> "Heatran also is not B. It's significantly performing at high level tourney play and is a very relevant pokemon."
Again, didn't say it performed well. But the fact you don't see Heatran on most teams should justify that it's not something above B that you can easily fit. It fits my description of B tier, i think.
A key issue Garg had vs Gliscor teams wasn't Gliscor itself, but Clefable, which Garg couldn't really make progress against, and could cripple Garg itself with Encore. Furthermore, Gliscor sort of forced Garg to run Boots over Leftovers. With Gliscor gone, Clef's viability and usage has decreased by proxy, making Garg noticeably stronger than it was in the past. It can also run Leftovers a bit more freely now compared to before. I think its significantly stronger now.
 
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