Unpopular opinions

[Samtendo09]

One point about game design:
If new options are introduced, and those options are not completely awful, then the game will experience powercreep. It's unavoidable. Either a new option is trash(in which case no one uses it and we all get mad at GF for wasting our time), it's notably better in many/most situations than the existing options(in which case we get mad about powercreep), or it's better some of the time and worse at others(in which case it's only used when it's better, and the avg power of teams increase). You may recognize option 3 as the reason why more and more stuff needs to be banned every gen if we want Stall to remain viable, even when something like Gen VII happens and most of the mons are mid at best.

Now, there are ways to fix this. Dexit(eliminating a bunch of mons) COULD have reduced power creep if GF had tried. And taking a bunch of staple moves like Knock Off and Scald away helps. But fundamentally, if you give people a mon that's good in one gen, and then next gen give them an identical mon except this one gets +10 across the board in weather and -10 outside weather, then weather teams just got better and non-weather teams stayed the same. And this holds even if the mon is on avg weaker than the previous option, and there's no real way for that not to happen.

I have opinions on game design, and on GF's approach to things, but also it's damn hard to pull off well.

As inevitable it is, how power creep is handled, or how much there is in one shot, must be considered as well.

Back in Gen 5, there was a notable power creep, including the infamous weather wars. There is blatant power creep regarding newer Pokémon, but to be honest, it have more to do with the fact that many Gen 1, 2, 3 and 4 Pokémon aren’t good to begin with, so it’s not a huge issue by itself since it simply means more viable options.

As VGC centers around Double, the power creep isn’t as obvious as it does in Smogon. That said, there can only be so much power creep before it gets both ridiculous and actively detrimental to the metagame.

It happened in XY + ORAS because of the infamous CHALK team, one that left a negative impact into VGC until corrections were done in Gen 7.

And with a worringly increasing amount of overtuned Pokémon introduced in this Generation, even with Doubles in mind first and foremost, I fear that we will get a history repeat of a team like the CHALK or worse, and public interest of competitive might get a downturn again.

I think I said and heard enough from this forum tonight. As much as there are valid points, I feel like it might devolve into toxicity. I’ll give it a rest until the subject changes.

 

[Axiemeister]

speaking of changing the subject and unpopular opinions: it was mentioned that zacian is much more popular than zamazenta, but i love zamazenta - regardless of how it ended up operating competitively. compared to zacian, it's just such a gorgeous regal-looking creature, and to me, zacian doesn't hit the mark in either form - hero is too common, crowned is too detailed and almost digimon-y.

i also like that it's a defensively focused box legendary!! sure they failed entirely at actually making it good at being defensive in mechanics, but the concept is what counts

 

[AztecCroc]

Just has an addendum to the Meganium discussion: Aromatherapy is gone, they took it away from everyone in SV.

 

[Coronis]

What a fun argument about competitive niches in an ingame forum.


Anyway as a strictly ingame player my overleveled Meganium will stomp everyone or will be a challenge to use in battles with Ogre Clan or on certain challenge runs so idc.

Chikorita line is another member of the second evo supremacy group of starters for me.

For me as well, and I believe a large number of the fanbase, the Chikorita line (especially Meganium itself) aren’t high in the list of popular starters - less incentive to buff it.

Also um, isn’t Pokemon (especially nowadays) a very offensive biased game competitively? (I haven’t played competitive for many gens so I could be grossly misinformed) A defensive Pokemon is inherently going to be worse than an offensive Pokemon no?

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Except the Chikorita line are starters, and they are not supposed to suck. Leaving it doomed to suck for eternity feels so wrong and heartbreaking to someone who loved the Chikorita line at that.

They would need something special to make them stand out from Venusaur, their predecessor.

Some mons will still be better than others but no Pokémon should absolutely sucks in-game.

Stop you right there. Meganium isn't And Never was my favorite pokemon. It deserves a buff as a starter pokemon

 

[pika pal]

What a fun argument about competitive niches in an ingame forum.


Anyway as a strictly ingame player my overleveled Meganium will stomp everyone or will be a challenge to use in battles with Ogre Clan or on certain challenge runs so idc.

Chikorita line is another member of the second evo supremacy group of starters for me.

For me as well, and I believe a large number of the fanbase, the Chikorita line (especially Meganium itself) aren’t high in the list of popular starters - less incentive to buff it.

Also um, isn’t Pokemon (especially nowadays) a very offensive biased game competitively? (I haven’t played competitive for many gens so I could be grossly misinformed) A defensive Pokemon is inherently going to be worse than an offensive Pokemon no?

To briefly answer the comp part, in Singles yes Offense is heavy but Support does have roles, and in Doubles you need a good mix to stop your attackers from getting double teamed.

As for Meganium, I'm kind of the opposite point from you where I long accepted not every Pokemon can be good in competitive, and my wish to see it buffed was because I used it for GSC/HGSS once each and it was not fun either time. Part of it is that Johto's major battle type-matchups are hostile to pure Grass but it also highlights that Meganium really doesn't have anything to do besides slowly chip away at enemies that resist its very limited attack options or sit on things like Leech Seed. Even in the limited option Colosseum I found it the most underwhelming of the starters. I don't care if it stays in FUBL for eternity competitively but I do think it could have used more to do in some form, as I like its design but it's an active detriment to the gameplay side of the experience for me even compared to most "bad but I like using this" mons.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

When it comes to competitive, Pokemon is stuck in a weird spot because it's trying to be a competitive game while at the same time also being a single-player RPG, which is what it was designed to be from the start. The earlier generations like Gens 1-3 were most certainly not designed with PvP in mind, as competitive Pokemon wasn't really a big thing back in those days. Gen 3 introduced Doubles but back then they were mostly a tentatively designed battle type they were experimenting with. It wasn't until Gen 4 that they really started making Pokemon into a PvP thing that people can feasibly have a competitive environment with, with VGC becoming a thing in Gen 4 and that being the first generation of modern competitive.

Pokemon has been in a weird place there for a long time because it tries to be a competitive game, but at the same time doesn't want to compromise its original identity of being a dedicated single-player RPG with mons continuing to be designed also with that mentality in mind.

With respect to in-game, which I feel is also an important thing to address, again, Meganium gets more scrutiny because it's a starter, and those Pokemon have an expectation to at least be very good in-game for an in-game playthrough, because they fulfill a very distinct role from an RPG standpoint: they are your first partner Pokemon, and they are designed to be good from beginning to end, being the one Pokemon you are always expected to keep with you to the finish line, being your dear partner and friend and your number one. In a way, the starter trio in every game is effectively the honorary trio of protagonists in their flagship game, among the Pokemon of their roster. The game's journey is their journey as much as it is their Trainer's, and they grow alongside the Trainer who chose them and will be there to the end.

I won't say Meganium is necessarily awful in-game in its home region's games, but it's definitely been ridiculed for being underwhelming as a starter, which to be fair, is not entirely its fault, as Johto is horrendously hostile to Grass-types. But I think even in the context of GSC and HGSS it's kind of in a weird spot where it's defensively oriented, and frankly it does have the tools in-game to suffice with Synthesis, screens, and stuff like Safeguard, Aromatherapy, and status with Poison Powder and Body Slam. But I feel many expect their starters to be a powerhouse force that can destroy teams and be the most powerful member, and Meganium isn't really the type to do that because its whole schtick is geared towards supporting its team and being a defensive backbone rather than a powerhouse destroyer like other starters. The fact that it's on the more passive side even as a starter probably hurts its perception especially when it's a member of an archetype that people have very specific expectations for when it comes to game design and how they perform in an in-game playthrough.

Those are my two cents on the matter.

 

[Ironmage]

When it comes to competitive, Pokemon is stuck in a weird spot because it's trying to be a competitive game while at the same time also being a single-player RPG, which is what it was designed to be from the start. The earlier generations like Gens 1-3 were most certainly not designed with PvP in mind, as competitive Pokemon wasn't really a big thing back in those days. Gen 3 introduced Doubles but back then they were mostly a tentatively designed battle type they were experimenting with. It wasn't until Gen 4 that they really started making Pokemon into a PvP thing that people can feasibly have a competitive environment with, with VGC becoming a thing in Gen 4 and that being the first generation of modern competitive.

Pokemon has been in a weird place there for a long time because it tries to be a competitive game, but at the same time doesn't want to compromise its original identity of being a dedicated single-player RPG with mons continuing to be designed also with that mentality in mind.

With respect to in-game, which I feel is also an important thing to address, again, Meganium gets more scrutiny because it's a starter, and those Pokemon have an expectation to at least be very good in-game for an in-game playthrough, because they fulfill a very distinct role from an RPG standpoint: they are your first partner Pokemon, and they are designed to be good from beginning to end, being the one Pokemon you are always expected to keep with you to the finish line, being your dear partner and friend and your number one. In a way, the starter trio in every game is effectively the honorary trio of protagonists in their flagship game, among the Pokemon of their roster. The game's journey is their journey as much as it is their Trainer's, and they grow alongside the Trainer who chose them and will be there to the end.

I won't say Meganium is necessarily awful in-game in its home region's games, but it's definitely been ridiculed for being underwhelming as a starter, which to be fair, is not entirely its fault, as Johto is horrendously hostile to Grass-types. But I think even in the context of GSC and HGSS it's kind of in a weird spot where it's defensively oriented, and frankly it does have the tools in-game to suffice with Synthesis, screens, and stuff like Safeguard, Aromatherapy, and status with Poison Powder and Body Slam. But I feel many expect their starters to be a powerhouse force that can destroy teams and be the most powerful member, and Meganium isn't really the type to do that because its whole schtick is geared towards supporting its team and being a defensive backbone rather than a powerhouse destroyer like other starters. The fact that it's on the more passive side even as a starter probably hurts its perception especially when it's a member of an archetype that people have very specific expectations for when it comes to game design and how they perform in an in-game playthrough.

Those are my two cents on the matter.

What really gets me about the ingame situation is that I feel there should be an option for a more support-oriented starter. The fantasy of the starter sticking with the player throughout the entire game only works well if the starter aligns with said player's playstyle. It can feel that because the games don't introduce the starters beyond their types, modern starters ingame have been homogenized just taking a guess at where your attacker fits on the speed/bulk axis (and that those that have a unique identity get it only in competitive with an HA and egg moves). Gens 1 and 2 may have assumed that the player could already figure out that Grass is a support type, but at least Venusaur and Meganium aren't just generic attackers coloured green.

 

[Coronis]

Meganium also had the poor luck to come in the Generation after Venusaur - where the other 8 types were Gyms.

Rock, Water, Ground - all the types that Grass hits super effectively.. are all Kanto Gyms. Water, Electric, Ground - all the types that Grass resists.. are all Kanto Gyms.


Flying, Bug, Poison*, Steel, Dragon - Johto Gyms that resist Grass
Flying, Bug, Ice - Johto Gyms that hit Grass super effectively

Grass was just at a much bigger disadvantage in Gen 2 gameplay, the most obvious discrepancy being in the early game sadly. Plus unlike the Bulbasaur line, the Chikorita line didn’t have a secondary type going for it.

*Ecruteak’s Gym is made up entirely of Poison Pokemon - though iirc they don’t actually have any Poison type moves.

 

[Hugin]

Meganium also had the poor luck to come in the Generation after Venusaur - where the other 8 types were Gyms.

Rock, Water, Ground - all the types that Grass hits super effectively.. are all Kanto Gyms. Water, Electric, Ground - all the types that Grass resists.. are all Kanto Gyms.


Flying, Bug, Poison*, Steel, Dragon - Johto Gyms that resist Grass
Flying, Bug, Ice - Johto Gyms that hit Grass super effectively

Grass was just at a much bigger disadvantage in Gen 2 gameplay, the most obvious discrepancy being in the early game sadly. Plus unlike the Bulbasaur line, the Chikorita line didn’t have a secondary type going for it.

*Ecruteak’s Gym is made up entirely of Poison Pokemon - though iirc they don’t actually have any Poison type moves.

Chikorita also doesn't get a lot of the support-oriented stuff you'd expect from a Grass-type in-game. Dual Screens are nice, but Aromatherapy is bad in-game, and Poison Powder is the only status it gets by level. No Leech Seed or Mega Drain either, and Giga Drain only through TM. So if you came to it expecting a stally, status-inducing tank like Bulbasaur was, you'd be quickly disappointed. I think we're due for another purely defensive Grass* to fill that role(maybe give us a Mushroom starter in Gen XI with Spore), because making fast, offensive grass-types has not gone well in most generations.

 

[DreamPrince]

On the topic of Calyrex-Shadow, my issue is that they introduced a third Psychic/Ghost after after Lunala and Necrozma-DW. The latter fusion is a anyway. Why not make Calyrex a different type? Psychic-Dark and Ghost/Grass come to mind. I have a theory that states that Spectrier was originally going to be a dark type, but they changed it due to wanting the Galarian Birds to be a Dark/Fighting/Psychic Trio.

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

>Unpopular Opinions

I think I'll just shoot and give my take,

I think any Pokemon Game post Gen 7, is just kinda underwhelming and unenjoyable and probably the worse aspects of the franchise and is simply a cashgrab from poor gamefreak management, starting from the removal of megas and memoryholeing of them when they could've continued to add more to mons that needed it the most like Shiftry and Flygon and I can even name more mons that desperately needed a mega, secondly, no national dex meaning many certain mons just weren't in the game, limiting the metagame to very few mons until the DLC which made players spend more money and introducing a gimmick in Gen 8 that was so unpopular it got banned by Assad margins and another gimmick in Gen 9 that was basically just adaptability for all mons and almost got banned this year,

Sun and Moon should've really been their template for to handle a new gimmick, they didn't throw away or mess with Megas or anything they just kept them the same as ORAS and basically just got a traditional composite Pokémon game that didn't go overboard and was just right and then suddenly they abandoned ALL that in Sword and Shield

Again I had harsher words in mind, because there's something about the graphics and just the vibes that just doesn't feel ok to me, not trying to ruffle any feathers, DM me if you want to debate further.

 

[woodgoldtwo]

>Unpopular Opinions

I think I'll just shoot and give my take,

I think any Pokemon Game post Gen 7, is just kinda underwhelming and unenjoyable and probably the worse aspects of the franchise and is simply a cashgrab from poor gamefreak management, starting from the removal of megas and memoryholeing of them when they could've continued to add more to mons that needed it the most like Shiftry and Flygon and I can even name more mons that desperately needed a mega, secondly, no national dex meaning many certain mons just weren't in the game, limiting the metagame to very few mons until the DLC which made players spend more money and introducing a gimmick in Gen 8 that was so unpopular it got banned by Assad margins and another gimmick in Gen 9 that was basically just adaptability for all mons and almost got banned this year,

Sun and Moon should've really been their template for to handle a new gimmick, they didn't throw Megas or anything they just kept them the same as ORAS and basically just got a traditional composite Pokémon game that didn't go overboard and was just right and then suddenly they abandoned ALL that in Sword and Shield

Again I had harsher words in mind, because there's something about the graphics and just the vibes that just doesn't feel ok to me, not trying to ruffle any feathers, DM me if you want to debate further.

Flygon was actually supposed to have a Mega Evolution but they couldn't come up with a good design for it so it was scrapped


Also Dynamax wasn't banned for being unpopular, it was banned from smogon formats due to being ridiculously overpowered in a 6v6 singles environment

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

Flygon was actually supposed to have a Mega Evolution but they couldn't come up with a good design for it so it was scrapped


Also Dynamax wasn't banned for being unpopular, it was banned from smogon formats due to being ridiculously overpowered in a 6v6 singles environment

>Flygon was actually supposed to have a Mega Evolution

Oh I'm fully aware of that, no worries, the game devs said that in an interview from while back, I just remember team building and thinking how good Flygon could've been had it got a mega because of its really poor stat allocation, and Dynamax was pretty hated/unpopular I'd say we're both correct, it was overpowered and created an unhealthy metagame and was very disliked, IIRC, many folks complained nonstop about it when Mods made a thread to talk about the question of Dynamax which was what resulted in it getting yeeted,

 

[Just A Shroom God]

I wish dondozo didn't exist. It just feels like such a half-assed solution to all the crap gamefreak released this generation, like, it almost completely walls so much of the broken physical threats (Palafin, Cp, Bax, RM, Sneasler, etc.) just by virtue of typing and ability, but, aside from its gimmick in doubles (which was also too strong and thus banned), it just has nothing else to make it an interesting pokemon. It has water moves and dragon moves, earthquake for some reason, curse, and rest. That's it. It feels like a gen 3 movepool. I also feel like it's one of like, 3 defensive pokemon keeping the floodgates of OU closed (the others being Tusk and Glowking), preventing all the broken shit from running amok, and I suppose I could be grateful for that, but at this point I'd much rather just have the broken stuff out, ban it, and return to a normal state of tier rather than the Jenga metagame we have now, where banning one thing leads to another being too good.

Edit: and oh, I forgot to mention that its design is just boring to me. It's a generic catfish... but fat. Blue-on-white color scheme is the most overdone color scheme for water pokemon and it shows. It also has this big dumb expression it constantly makes, with the crossed eyes and the slightly-opened mouth, which removes ALL the suspense I had upon seeing its silhouette in the water. And I get it, it's supposed to partner with Tatsugiri, but, quite aside from the fact that that interaction is both buggy and ironically, matchup-fishy, a doubles gimmick in a game where 90% of the battles are single just isn't very useful, which means that it has to have SOMETHING to be able to stand on its own. I also feel the same way about Tatsugiri in terms of design, but at least Tatsugiri has some things going for it in Dragon typing and Nasty Plot by level-up, and its color gimmick is sort of neat if you're into that sort of thing.

On the plus side, its shiny is kinda cool at least

edit 2: Me when I post an unpopular opinion on the unpopular opinions thread and it's unpopular

 

[pika pal]

I wish dondozo didn't exist. It just feels like such a half-assed solution to all the crap gamefreak released this generation, like, it almost completely walls so much of the broken physical threats (Palafin, Cp, Bax, RM, Sneasler, etc.) just by virtue of typing and ability, but, aside from its gimmick in doubles (which was also too strong and thus banned), it just has nothing else to make it an interesting pokemon. It has water moves and dragon moves, earthquake for some reason, curse, and rest. That's it. It feels like a gen 3 movepool. I also feel like it's one of like, 3 defensive pokemon keeping the floodgates of OU closed (the others being Tusk and Glowking), preventing all the broken shit from running amok, and I suppose I could be grateful for that, but at this point I'd much rather just have the broken stuff out, ban it, and return to a normal state of tier rather than the Jenga metagame we have now, where banning one thing leads to another being too good.

I kind of have the opposite regard for this sort of interaction, because Dondozo is kind of a defensive version of what Lando-T did for a team-wide level in past gens by being a blanket check/glue on several defensive teams, such that you can build around stuff you want to try and Dondozo is usually a reasonable way to patch up a core's weakness while being splashable enough to cover several such team needs. Defensive teams have their work cut out for building ever since Gen 7, so anything that can compress that amount of defensive backbone is a godsend (I say as a player who doesn't do much Stall/Balance but knows they're important to measure a Meta's health).

 

[Worldie]

I wish dondozo didn't exist. It just feels like such a half-assed solution to all the crap gamefreak released this generation, like, it almost completely walls so much of the broken physical threats (Palafin, Cp, Bax, RM, Sneasler, etc.) just by virtue of typing and ability, but, aside from its gimmick in doubles (which was also too strong and thus banned), it just has nothing else to make it an interesting pokemon. It has water moves and dragon moves, earthquake for some reason, curse, and rest. That's it. It feels like a gen 3 movepool. I also feel like it's one of like, 3 defensive pokemon keeping the floodgates of OU closed (the others being Tusk and Glowking), preventing all the broken shit from running amok, and I suppose I could be grateful for that, but at this point I'd much rather just have the broken stuff out, ban it, and return to a normal state of tier rather than the Jenga metagame we have now, where banning one thing leads to another being too good.

I kind of have the opposite regard for this sort of interaction, because Dondozo is kind of a defensive version of what Lando-T did for a team-wide level in past gens by being a blanket check/glue on several defensive teams, such that you can build around stuff you want to try and Dondozo is usually a reasonable way to patch up a core's weakness while being splashable enough to cover several such team needs. Defensive teams have their work cut out for building ever since Gen 7, so anything that can compress that amount of defensive backbone is a godsend (I say as a player who doesn't do much Stall/Balance but knows they're important to measure a Meta's health).

Regardless, you know what I'm about to say.

Dondozo was not created as is because of singles, its entire purpose was to match with the Dondozo/Tatsugiri gimmick. Unaware makes for a perfect match for that gimmick, since you're trying to make your "raid boss" survive and do as much damage as possible, thus ignoring opposing stat buffs is reasonable.

The effect of Dondozo on 6v6 singles was not intentionally designed and is just a smogon thing. It was definitely not created as "half assed solution" to anything.
In fact, it's a pretty creative design and a successful showcase of a new gimmick for once, as despite VGC players hating it as much as you, it was one of the very few times in last generations where a gimmick pokemon actually had competitive viability.

Daily boring reminder that 6v6 singles do not exist as far as balance goes

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

I wish dondozo didn't exist. It just feels like such a half-assed solution to all the crap gamefreak released this generation, like, it almost completely walls so much of the broken physical threats (Palafin, Cp, Bax, RM, Sneasler, etc.) just by virtue of typing and ability, but, aside from its gimmick in doubles (which was also too strong and thus banned), it just has nothing else to make it an interesting pokemon. It has water moves and dragon moves, earthquake for some reason, curse, and rest. That's it. It feels like a gen 3 movepool. I also feel like it's one of like, 3 defensive pokemon keeping the floodgates of OU closed (the others being Tusk and Glowking), preventing all the broken shit from running amok, and I suppose I could be grateful for that, but at this point I'd much rather just have the broken stuff out, ban it, and return to a normal state of tier rather than the Jenga metagame we have now, where banning one thing leads to another being too good.

Edit: and oh, I forgot to mention that its design is just boring to me. It's a generic catfish... but fat. Blue-on-white color scheme is the most overdone color scheme for water pokemon and it shows. It also has this big dumb expression it constantly makes, with the crossed eyes and the slightly-opened mouth, which removes ALL the suspense I had upon seeing its silhouette in the water. And I get it, it's supposed to partner with Tatsugiri, but, quite aside from the fact that that interaction is both buggy and ironically, matchup-fishy, a doubles gimmick in a game where 90% of the battles are single just isn't very useful, which means that it has to have SOMETHING to be able to stand on its own. I also feel the same way about Tatsugiri in terms of design, but at least Tatsugiri has some things going for it in Dragon typing and Nasty Plot by level-up, and its color gimmick is sort of neat if you're into that sort of thing.

On the plus side, its shiny is kinda cool at least

I can't say I agree or disagree but I always thought it looked like a ripoff of Wishcash cause Gamefreak was simply to lazy to make new designs for Pokémon, the resemblance is so uncanny they've should've just called it a regional variant

 

[AztecCroc]

earthquake for some reason

1) It's huge and fat.
2) Catfish are associated with earthquakes in Japan.

I can't say I agree or disagree but I always thought it looked like a ripoff of Wishcash cause Gamefreak was simply to lazy to make new designs for Pokémon, the resemblance is so uncanny they've should've just called it a regional variant

Not nearly close enough to be a regional variant, but if you made it Water/Ground and made the whiskers longer and slapped a D on its forhead, I could see it as an evolution.

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

Not nearly close enough to be a regional variant, but if you made it Water/Ground and made the whiskers longer and slapped a D on its forhead, I could see it as an evolution.

Looking upon the design again and comparing both it really does look like a scrapped Mega Evo design for Wishcash almost, but yea it could've been an evo of Wishcash kinda like Basculegion or Jynx

 

[DreamPrince]

In the case of Dondozo, it feels like its purpose was to be an ultimate boss for the Titan Pokemon: It has highest stats and BST of all of them, and even has an ability that grants it stat boosts! But here's my problem they don't utillize the commander abillity at all- the Dondozo doesn't have the stat boosts. What was even the point then? It just feels unecessary to design Dondozo and Tatsugiri this way, I'm guessing the devs it would be too hard if Dondozo got +2 in every stat, hence the lack of boosts, but looking at Dondozo's movepool, a defensive Grass type would still pose a problem.

 

[AztecCroc]

In the case of Dondozo, it feels like its purpose was to be an ultimate boss for the Titan Pokemon: It has highest stats and BST of all of them, and even has an ability that grants it stat boosts! But here's my problem they don't utillize the commander abillity at all- the Dondozo doesn't have the stat boosts. What was even the point then? It just feels unecessary to design Dondozo and Tatsugiri this way, I'm guessing the devs it would be too hard if Dondozo got +2 in every stat, hence the lack of boosts, but looking at Dondozo's movepool, a defensive Grass type would still pose a problem.

Base SV doesn't really have any of those though.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

Honestly, I don't mind Dondozo's limited moveset. It's a big dumb boy, it makes sense for it to learn almost no Special moves, its job is to beat up others with tail slaps and slams.
The size of Tatsugiri's moveset, on the other hand, bothers me a lot. It's far from the worst moveset I can think of ―it's hard to make a Nasty Plot user bad, and it learns good Status moves such as Taunt, Memento, and Helping Hand― but only Normal-, Water- and Dragon-type Special moves other than Icy Wind is super odd. Like, it's the smart one, you would think it would be able to learn a few more moves.

 

[Worldie]

The size of Tatsugiri's moveset, on the other hand, bothers me a lot. It's far from the worst moveset I can think of ―it's hard to make a Nasty Plot user bad, and it learns good Status moves such as Taunt, Memento, and Helping Hand― but only Normal-, Water- and Dragon-type Special moves other than Icy Wind is super odd. Like, it's the smart one, you would think it would be able to learn a few more moves.

It's very likely this was an intentional balance decision, despite it having Storm Drain (probably just for the sake of having a usable singles ability) it was pretty clear that these 2 mons were made *specifically* to be used toghether. Giving Tatsugiri a wide moveset would have created a valid case for standalone usage, as after all we're looking at a strong defensive type and non-negligible bulk pokemon with high speed and spatk, which is not what they were looking for while designing it.

(Also i'm not really sure why it's a Dragon type... prolly some reference I'm missing somewhere... )

 

[Ironmage]

(Also i'm not really sure why it's a Dragon type... prolly some reference I'm missing somewhere... )

I'm suspicious that it's a combination of wanting the pair as a Titan encounter, not overlapping displayed types between maingame bosses, and already having a Water gym. i.e. there's no significant in-universe explanation.