Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem suspect now up]

[SittinGamer]

I would like to see where exactly discussion of Terapagos was disallowed pages ago, as I have at least thought I've kept a keen eye on any post from mods which go "shut the fuck up."
I'm not picking a fight, but in going through page 10 on, the closest thing I see is Finch personally laying all of HIS thoughts on the matter. I am more than willing to be proven wrong, and at this point, if it was not ever officially banned from discussion, it frankly should be by now.

Edit: For metagame discussion, when things start to settle down I can see Mold Breaker Excadrill acting as a side grade to Tusk that has a harder time getting its setup, but is also nigh unwallable if the ball gets rolling.

 

[Morkal]

In that case...
I would like to apologize to Raging Bolt, I thought he was going to be mid in OU, but its pretty good bulk and dumb as hell signature move coming off of a base 137 SpA
Any other mons you guys underestimated going into the DLC?

Serperior - I thought it would be alright but it's been an absolute demon so far.
Swampert - I thought it would be overshadowed here, but it's one of the best Rockers in the tier right now. Great bulk and great typing, and not much other than Serperior/Rillaboom is running Grass coverage for it.

 

[Tuthur]

I mean you’re entitled to draw whatever distinction you want, but tiering doesn’t subscribe to this arbitrary cross-section that you point out and that’s a larger discussion that goes way over my head.

I'm not sure I understand your post correctly. It appeared to me you were saying I just made up criterias for tiering that are arbitrary and irrelevant to Smogon Tiering Policy. Sorry if that's not what you meant, maybe that's just an ESL moment.
However, that's not something I made up on the spot, that's the statu quo that's been using on Smogon since I've joined the website. Most of the threads about it are quite old, but I don't have seen anything more recent than that (though I know this was still the case earlier this year, since I had a discussion about Basculin's tiering with Marty in June). Maybe Terapagos is some exception to this rule for reasons unknown to me, but I don't think you've explained to me how it is different from Mega Evolutions, or any other in-game form changes (Ash-Greninja was notably tiered separately from Torrent/Protean Greninja).

 

[Neosonic97]

Serperior - I thought it would be alright but it's been an absolute demon so far.

I mean, Serperior's better than ever now that it has a second move to abuse Contrary with. It's kind of Tera reliant, but Stellar Tera Blast+Leaf Storm is a frightening prospect. The fact that it hits everything neutrally (save for opposing Teras which it hits SE instead), meaning it has no resists, is just the icing on the cake.

 

[TheTraininator]

It’s all good. It’s very clear people are passionate about the subject and I respect that a ton, but I also think there’s a whole tier of new Pokemon to discuss and just don’t want everyone to get burnt out on this

I respect that and I respect you a ton too. Policy disagreements aside, I think you’re an awesome and very approachable tier leader. We all just want what’s best for the tier.

 

[Morkal]

I mean, Serperior's better than ever now that it has a second move to abuse Contrary with. It's kind of Tera reliant, but Stellar Tera Blast+Leaf Storm is a frightening prospect. The fact that it hits everything neutrally (save for opposing Teras which it hits SE instead), meaning it has no resists, is just the icing on the cake.

I've gotta be honest - I'm not feeling the new Stellar mechanic; it's a bit situational, frankly. Even Serperior imo feels better just utilizing a non-Stellar Tera type like Fire/Ground/Fighting rather than Stellar itself. I just can't find ways to justify using Stellar-Tera on anything other than the Terror Turtle

 

[arnimacarni]

I don't know if many or any of you play chess semi-regularly but Terapagos just feels like Mittens.

"hihihihi watch me as i destroy everything you ever held sacred, for i'm the end of pokemon as you knew hihihihi"

 

[Ihatestall]

The obese turtle is just, guess that Pokémon taken to the extreme. If you guess wrong a single time ur likely gonna be blasted by a Tera starstorm and by the off chance that some man was insane enough to run mental herb, congrats ggwp

 

[Ibaragi]

The worst fear of Serperior is any Unaware mon raining on its parade, and Stellar Blast just ain't doing anything for you in those match ups. Getting a Tera that can win against a given Unaware mon is usually better. Tera Blast-Ground hits Skeledirge and Clodsire, Tera-Poison hits Clefable and other Grass while getting a better defensive typing, and so on.
Tera Stellar is not much stronger than resisted Leaf Storm, you're only getting a +1 off of it, not changing your defensive typing and even spending your Tera on the proces; feels like the wrong choice for Serp.

 

[658Greninja]

Within the chaos of an early meta, there is a couple sets that I found to really like whether they’re fun or anti-meta.

Serperior @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fire/Ground/Stellar
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Knock Off
- Taunt/Tera Blast/Leech Seed/Synthesis

We all know how obnoxious Leaf Storm + Glare is, but I found Knock to be more disrespectful towards Boots Spam. It chucks every Fire and Flying type’s Boots off while continuing to be a nuance.

Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Ice Beam
- Will-O-Wisp/Hypnosis/Knock Off

I’ve been testing Boots + Status Darkrai on bulkier builds to clean up and its putting in work on Balance styles as speed control. I love using it. Wisp lets it fire off emergency burns before fainting or to cripple stuff like Ting-Lu throughout a game. Ice Beam obliterates Ground Types and Serp while Sludge Bomb breaks open Fairies. It works similarly to Hex Pult on Boots Balance except with more raw power. You can also try Knock which ruins Boots Spam builds and Blissey. Partners well with stuff like Dragapult, Deo-D, Latios, Serp, and other random nonsense.

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
- Hex

The classic Skeledirge set. In a chaotic nonsensical early meta, Skeledirge was always there. When Volcarona started taking people’s lunch money, it was there. When Serp spammed Glare + Leaf Storm, it wasn’t there but is willingly capable of bullying Serp. Even if Serperior decides to Tera Ground its way through, Serp has mediocre damage output without a Leaf Storm boost. Plus Dirge can just Tera to mitigate it and Slack Off through Leaf Storm’s 8 PP. I’ve even used it for Terabozos but even once it leaves, Dirge will see high usage and get better after a few rou

Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Body Press
- Roost
- Whirlwind

A sleeper pick rn. Its Corv but it trades useless Defog utility and U-Turn for phazing and the ability to actually make progress. Because Tusk is forced to run Ice Spinner to spin on Gliscor, Skarm can come in and chip Tusk down. Hell, why not just pair both together for the most obnoxious spike stacking core? Skarm can also kill or phaze out dangerous attackers like Gambit, Rilla, Boulder, Drill, Moon, etc while racking up hazard chip and making the paradoxes lose their boosts.

Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Luster Purge
- Aura Sphere
- Flip Turn

Buffed Luster Purge + Flip Turn is alot of fun to mess around with. Anything hit by Luster Purge that isn’t a Dark type is getting 2HKOd or 3HKOd at best. The added addition of Flip Turn is really nice. I still consider Pult to be the much better mon, but Latios is dopamine. Plus Tera Dragon Dracos has silly calcs like this.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Latios Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 365-431 (91.2 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Latios Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 344-406 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Latios Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 400-472 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

BW OU moment.

Terabozos and Deo-D are obvious quickban candidates.

Moon should be looked at.

Volc is surrounded by Dragons, Fire types, and Booster Boulder, so I’m not convinced that it will be broken.

Kyurem lost Roost and exists in a more aggresive metagame. DD + Tera Blast sets could be scary, but its not like Bax where it doesn’t need Tera to wreck shit.

Blaziken is too frail while Serp can have issues with 4MSS and Tera syndrome. Plus the latter is outsped by Pult, Zama, Weavile, Valiant, Darkrai.

and ofc, ban Ghold.

 

[TheTraininator]

I think Enamorus is a better Tera Stellar user than Serperior. She actually likes the buffs to both her attacking stats since she doesn’t have a Leaf Storm equivalent to boost her special attack while attacking otherwise, and she has all the coverage she needs in 3 slots anyway usually.

 

[Welcome to mars]

While i am 100% sure cobalion is dropping to UU (where it will naturally be top tier) i do think it has solid qualities like good physical bulk, steel typing, access to pivoting, being a solid kingambit check with its fighting typing, and access to good utility like thunder wave and stealth rock, but its not an ou level pokemon and i expect it to be low rank in the early viability rankings and no more than B in the official rankings, however it can fit on certain teams and can do important stuff, as for iron crown, i doubt it‘ll make an impact, its bulk is more mixed it has partial psychic typing which can hold it back, ghost has cemented itself as one of the best offensive typings in the game after the pursuit ban, and while OU isn’t packed with them, dragapult and gholdengo are still common and great pokes, its 122 special attack makes it more offensively threating than its grandpa but its speed tier is worse, now longer getting the jump on the base 100s and 105s which is a bigger issue than you may think, the main sets probably would be some form of calm mind, wether fast or bulky with iron defense, im not too keen on it and expect it to drop from uu in the future, but maybe that could far from the truth, we might have to just see

 

[KamenOH]

Will the tiers shift come the new year as they normally do, or are we gonna skip this month due to the assload of new additions?
Landorus will be UU for once, I feel

 

[SittinGamer]

Guys I think it may be a problem how fun Meowscarada is right now. Triple Axel really does go brr

 

[fightnugget]

In that case...
I would like to apologize to Raging Bolt, I thought he was going to be mid in OU, but its pretty good bulk and dumb as hell signature move coming off of a base 137 SpA
Any other mons you guys underestimated going into the DLC?

Latios.

Latios @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Luster Purge
- Draco Meteor
- Aura Sphere
- Flip Turn

I haven't figured out the best coverage move yet, but Luster, Draco, Flip Turn is great. This thing hits hard and Luster has been buffed to be highly disrespectful. 110 Base Speed Tier is great. I've been using Specs Wake outside of Sun as a special wallbreaker and Scald spammer but I'm excited to keep testing this to see how it performs. The new Dark types (as well as the old) are a threat as is Gholdengo, but that signature move is crazy.

Edit: Greninja'd will typing this up. But that makes 2 guys so there you go.

 

[Moyashi]

It's going to end up banned and all possible criticism/comparisons will either be shrugged off or be answered with non-responses. It'll be freed again when Tera gets the boot anyways.

just because you're not being told what you want to hear doesn't mean anything is being shrugged off, nor does it make the responses "non responses", and if anything you're being rude. Grow up for pete's sake. There have been so many flawed arguments trying to compare this situation to ZygC in gen7 that just don't work.

 

[Rootb]

I'm not sure I understand your post correctly. It appeared to me you were saying I just made up criterias for tiering that are arbitrary and irrelevant to Smogon Tiering Policy. Sorry if that's not what you meant, maybe that's just an ESL moment.
However, that's not something I made up on the spot, that's the statu quo that's been using on Smogon since I've joined the website. Most of the threads about it are quite old, but I don't have seen anything more recent than that (though I know this was still the case earlier this year, since I had a discussion about Basculin's tiering with Marty in June). Maybe Terapagos is some exception to this rule for reasons unknown to me, but I don't think you've explained to me how it is different from Mega Evolutions, or any other in-game form changes (Ash-Greninja was notably tiered separately from Torrent/Protean Greninja).

The biggest answer is just that, because Terapagos is tera locked (like Ogerpon formes are), you can't prevent it from having access to the Stellar Tera Type in the builder. As a result, the tools used to tier pokemon don't actually offer a way to load in Terapagos, but not allow it to Terastallize.

With Zygarde, removing Power Construct in the builder meant that Zygarde-C couldn't be selected in battle. With Mega Gengar, removing Gengarite in the builder did the same. And with Ash-Greninja, the addition of Battle Bond meant that that builder could know, for certain, what you were planning on doing with that Pokémon.

The only option to preserve 600 BST Terapagos are a specific ban on one pokemon using Tera, and that's not something tiering currently supports, because it bypasses the builder entirely.

 

[Goodstyle]

I don't understand the comparison between Terapagos Stellar form and Mega at all. It's called a separate form, and it gets different stats, but it's really not. It's what happens when this pokemon Terastilizes, a mechanic every other mon in the tier can do. It also is locked into that type of Tera. It can't do a "regular" Tera.

What people are arguing for is just making this mon arbitrarily be unable to Tera, a key mechanic of the gen. This isn't banning an item from that mon like with Mega evolution, this is removing the ability to do a thing every other mon can do because when this mon does it, it's broken. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me. That'd be like banning the move "protect" from a Pokemon who's exclusive ability it is to do 50% damage to the opponent every time they did protect. It's clear this mon is busted, implementing a ban to remove the use of a universal mechanic on one specific pokemon because it uses that mechnanic in a special broken way opens a huge can of worms and will damage the tiering process down the road.

If Tera as a whole gets banned, then yes, it'd make sense to bring the turtle back, but as of now, no way in hell should we entertain banning just the "stellar form" because that is a misnomer. What people are actually suggesting is locking the tera function on a specific pokemon in a meta where every other mon can tera at any time. It's sloppy, and it shouldn't be done.

 

[Karxrida]

Latios.

Latios @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Luster Purge
- Draco Meteor
- Aura Sphere
- Flip Turn

I haven't figured out the best coverage move yet, but Luster, Draco, Flip Turn is great. This thing hits hard and Luster has been buffed to be highly disrespectful. 110 Base Speed Tier is great. I've been using Specs Wake outside of Sun as a special wallbreaker and Scald spammer but I'm excited to keep testing this to see how it performs. The new Dark types (as well as the old) are a threat as is Gholdengo, but that signature move is crazy.

Edit: Greninja'd will typing this up. But that makes 2 guys so there you go.

I'd unironically consider Naive or Hasty on Choice sets to boost up Flip Turn damage a bit. Latios has a passable Attack stat, so it can do okay neutral damage with Flip Turn. More chip is always good, especially when you have less room for error with Choice items.

 

[Cuddly]

btw here's a team I have been using on the ladder
https://pokepast.es/fe3920fbb28b5065

Terapagos, pretty fucking stupid. Set here is a ChestoResto set which pairs amazingly with both forms. You can spend a few turns setting up in base form, rest up, and now you have Tera Shell again to tank several hits. You then Tera after tanking a hit with Tera Shell in majority of cases with nearly full 160/110/110 bulk, blustered by calm mind boosts too.
With 188 Speed, you outspeed Deoxys-S after a Rock Polish, but that's pretty customizable tbh. You honestly could simply have minimum EV requirement to even start laddering and still win because its Stellar stats are stellar.

Because I wanted to be unique, I decided that I'd use Deoxys-S for Screens duty. Not only that, but it also works great at revenge killing Great Tusk too. It's fast and gets the job done well. I tried running enough EVs to outspeed Dragapult with rest going into bulk, but was foiled by opposing Deo-S, so I just ended up using Max Speed anyways. I could also drop Psycho Boost for other Psychic STAB, just so Great Tusk doesn't avoid a Psycho Boost and rapid spin my hazards away.

Standard HO affairs. It's a great Pokemon all around. Being able to block hazard removal while also being great at pivoting around and threatening faster threats.

Iron Boulder is a surprise star on this team meant for Terapagos. It might be just me, but I'v played a bunch of games where Iron Boulder wins even before Terapagos gets to do anything. Its almost impossible to outspeed thanks to Booster Energy, and it hits decently well with 120 Atk and Sword Dance. Mighty Cleave is really solid STAB. Bypassing protect is actually pretty huge. Close Combat hits pretty much everything that Mighty Cleave doesn't hit outside of some niche options. Throat Chop literally for Gholdengo, specifically Air Balloon variants, which is a great reason why I like Gholdengo in the tier. It checks Pokemon like Iron Valiant and Iron Boulder who otherwise would rampage through the tier if you don't have the right priority.

Also pretty standard HO pick. The great part about Samurott here is its match-up against Deoxys-Speed leads. You Ceasless Edge as they set up a hazard, then Aqua Jet to finish them off. Not only is it great against Deoxys-S, it's great against several other Pokemon currently. Aqua Jet for Iron Boulder, Knock Off bunch of Pokemon's items, threaten Cinderace out with priority and strong moves, etc. It's a great mon all around, and everyone knows that.

I kind of just added Excadrill as a Rapid Spin supporter that wasn't Great Tusk. it's faster than Great Tusk by just a hair, and the Grass neutrality helps a ton when screens are up. Additionally it has Mold Breaker, which can come in handy some times. It can help break Terapagos by ignoring Tera Shell and ignores Levitate as well. I could definitely work on the set so it more easily beats Great Tusk in a 1v1, like maybe use Steel Beam with investment or something. It's very specialized on this team, which ultimately won't matter because Terapagos and Deo-S are going very soon to Ubers.

 

[Gigalodon]

how it is different from Mega Evolutions, or any other in-game form changes (Ash-Greninja was notably tiered separately from Torrent/Protean Greninja).

Correct me if I‘m wrong with this, but every Terapagos can go into stellar form. This means the only way to separate them would be to ban specific user inputs. This can’t be compared to Megas or Greninja because those are tied to items and abilities that resrict whether or not you can change the form. So with those you would just ban the items and not the input

 

[Tuthur]

Correct me if I‘m wrong with this, but every Terapagos can go into stellar form. This means the only way to separate them would be to ban specific user inputs. This can’t be compared to Megas or Greninja because those are tied to items and abilities that resrict whether or not you can change the form. So with those you would just ban the items and not the input

The dynamax input has been banned in SS OU, just like the Mega-Rayquaza input has been banned in SM and ORAS Ubers, and the tera input in SV Monotype.

 

[Gigalodon]

The dynamax input has been banned in SS OU, just like the Mega-Rayquaza input has been banned in SM and ORAS Ubers, and the tera input in SV Monotype.

That was an entire mechanic that has been banned for every pokemon tho and the stellar transformation sort of counts as tera ingame. Also Mega-Rayquaza is Ubers and has a different policy.

You asked how it differs from megas or Greninja, this is how

 

[SittinGamer]

This train of thought at least is going into circles, regarding the ability to Terastalize, I mean.

If there's a part of Tuthur's post I'm most curious about seeing addressed, it's when referring to the thread on tiering policy and how formes factor into it. After all, it would appear that this is the single most important part to certify, as it almost singularly states whether policy dictates it be tiered as a separate form vs as a mon.

 

[KamenOH]

Im of the opinion we have a good o l tiering discussion, if only so that whatever outcome comes on top, finch can say "you asked for it" and get some sleep for the first time this month