Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Soiramio3000]

Lol

Lol try focus sash. It’s gimmicky but funny when it works.

I fixed the post and changed endure instead of endeavor.

getting a +1 attack AND speed boost is better than just a speed boost.

also you don't have to worry about entry hazards with endure.

 

[Conflux123]

Electro Shot. You're gonna wanna always run it with rain. Its a waste to put Archaludon with a Power Herb like you would with meteor beam when rain allows it to run Assault Vest. Archaludon's probably in the same tier as Raging Bolt due to their immense defense offense, only Archaludon can continuously boost.

You can check out sets here if you’d like
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/archaludon.3732738/
Move is also called Electro Shot. It’s like Meteor Beam but better.

Got it so I’ll run a set from Smogon with electro shot. I don’t run a rain team and don’t want to lose momentum so I should run the assault vest set right? Thanks so much for the help.

 

[Conflux123]

Is Serperior good enough to warrant its use? I’ve played against a lot so far and overall I just switch to Ddance moon and use nonboosted acrobatics to OHKO it. I like the idea of a strong attack boosting your stats with contrary as well but I think that overall Tera stellar scarf enamorus with contrary is just better.

 

[Artoria Pendragon]

Completely agree and Raging Bolt can even run dragon pulse so it can deal with the ground types once it’s behind screens. Dragon plus lightning provides great coverage of the metagame and you even can tank things like a dragon pulse from archaludon once you’re behind light screen and you invested in hp. I can even see it on a trick room team lol.

No no no.. not Dragon Pulse.. its Draco Meteor that you need to run. White Herb Bolt should NOT be underestimated, especially if you run him on sun so he doesn't need that Booster Energy. Dragon Pulse is good though, but more for the Assault Vest/Specs sets. However, Vest is better cause you're going to want the ability to utilize all your move tools while using Bolt. Being able to switch between Thunder Clap and other moves that can keep hitting in the advent of a Sucker Punch user can be key, cause most Sucker Punch users are faster, which means that Thunder Clap will do nothing if it moves second. Don't be afraid to have the ability to use Thunder for Rain Counters, also running Weather Ball gives you powerful fire stabs to tear into steel type counters, especially since too many people are trying to flirt with Metagross right now (even though he isn't that good atm).

 

[Artoria Pendragon]

Is Serperior good enough to warrant its use? I’ve played against a lot so far and overall I just switch to Ddance moon and use nonboosted acrobatics to OHKO it. I like the idea of a strong attack boosting your stats with contrary as well but I think that overall Tera stellar scarf enamorus with contrary is just better.

Here's how to run Serperior.

1. Give it Contrary.

2. Give it Leaf Storm.

3. Give it Focus sash so it can spam leaf storm a second time if the first one doesn't kill your opponent

3. Spam Leaf Storm and Giga Drain until everything dies.

4. Spam other moves for coverage as necessary.

5. Profit.

 

[Conflux123]

No no no.. not Dragon Pulse.. its Draco Meteor that you need to run. White Herb Bolt should NOT be underestimated, especially if you run him on sun so he doesn't need that Booster Energy. Dragon Pulse is good though, but more for the Assault Vest/Specs sets. However, Vest is better cause you're going to want the ability to utilize all your move tools while using Bolt. Being able to switch between Thunder Clap and other moves that can keep hitting in the advent of a Sucker Punch user can be key, cause most Sucker Punch users are faster, which means that Thunder Clap will do nothing if it moves second. Don't be afraid to have the ability to use Thunder for Rain Counters, also running Weather Ball gives you powerful fire stabs to tear into steel type counters, especially since too many people are trying to flirt with Metagross right now (even though he isn't that good atm).

I’m running it with booster energy to boost its special attack on a screens ho team that has no sun. This means I can’t really run Draco meteor as it pretty much forces me out and with a calm mind it’s pretty similar damage for the key koes anyway. Also I want my set to be able to stay in for a couple of turns and dragon pulse better fits that purpose. Also I don’t need to immediately deal with threats with Draco meteor because of screens.

 

[Conflux123]

Here's how to run Serperior.

1. Give it Contrary.

2. Give it Leaf Storm.

3. Give it Focus sash so it can spam leaf storm a second time if the first one doesn't kill your opponent

3. Spam Leaf Storm and Giga Drain until everything dies.

4. Spam other moves for coverage as necessary.

5. Profit.

I know the sets right now already. I’m just asking if Serperior is worth the spot on teams since again in practice I can easily counter it.

 

[Artoria Pendragon]

I’m running it with booster energy to boost its special attack on a screens ho team that has no sun. This means I can’t really run Draco meteor as it pretty much forces me out and with a calm mind it’s pretty similar damage for the key koes anyway. Also I want my set to be able to stay in for a couple of turns and dragon pulse better fits that purpose. Also I don’t need to immediately deal with threats with Draco meteor because of screens.

I'm more of a Doubles Player, cause it makes more pokemon I like viable and i can play with legendary pokemon which is fun. But don't overestimate your screens. Another option you could consider is having an electric Terrain setter instead to really boost the offense obscenely. Consider prankster Thundurus as both a screen setter and an electric terrain setter to prep Raging Bolt, or maybe run a Pyukmyu suicide.

 

[The N@me User]

There it is, that's what people keep doing. They write off so many mons because "Speed this" and "Speed that" even trying to make mons that shine as bulky tankers into jolly speedsters. Raging Bolt doesn't NEED speed. I've built hp maxed and special maxed bolt with Assault Vest. On a sun team it ravages the other side while being near unkillable. And thanks to its insane power and priority, its even able to take on Fluttermane whose defenses make it usless without a sash. And let me tell you, i've used it on an Ubers Koraidon/Miraidon Sun Terrain team and people should be GLAD Tapu Koko isn't back. Sun Terrain Raging bolt is such a nuke it really doesn't matter if you pile in a Blissey or a Snorlax or a pokemon with type resistance. The only thing surviving Raging Bolt is a ground type.

Electric Terrain is nigh-unviable in OU with Pinchurin as it's only setter. That being said, I agree with what you've said about Raging Bolt in general if it's given the right support, as with reliable sun/terrain setters (National Dex for example), Bolt is noticeably hard to stop from the teams I've used it on.

Pinchurin is obviously not worth running, but if you manage to get Electric Terrain up via any of your teammates:

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

Like you said, stopping this thing without a Ground type would be a heavy task, and when you can switch types with the click of a button, that's not a final answer.

That said, I don't think Raging Bolt is problematic in the main SV OU given the limited setters (nor NDOU for that matter), I just wanted to add on that I agree that Raging Bolt isn't nearly bad, it's a very good wallbreaker when you set the conditions.

 

[Artoria Pendragon]

I know the sets right now already. I’m just asking if Serperior is worth the spot on teams since again in practice I can easily counter it.

I don't know about OU honestly, since it really IS easy to just switch in Gouging fire where 3 Leafstorm boosts still won't be enough to do much. But you could consider using him in Doubles. With good follow me support Serperior becomes a powerful threat immensely quickly in Doubles. However if you want my opinion, the best Grass Type in game right now is Growth, Weather Ball, Chlorophyll Venusaur, who can also run Earth Power to obliterate opposing fire types. I'd say Venusaur is the competition to Hisuian Liligant's crown as the ultra powered grass type of sun teams. Starting Growth under screens and then spamming gigadrain to replenish the hits you took to Growth in the first place is incredible.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Artoria Pendragon
Conflux123

I just want to remind you two that there is a rule that prohibits "double posting", that rule does not explain very well what double posting even is.
double posting apparently is when you post 2 or more comments in a row.

so you may want to fuse your comments together before some moderator notices.

 

[JunkoAJ]

I know the sets right now already. I’m just asking if Serperior is worth the spot on teams since again in practice I can easily counter it.

It's one of the best mons in the tier right now - very much worth using or preparing for.

 

[Artoria Pendragon]

Electric Terrain is nigh-unviable in OU with Pinchurin as it's only setter. That being said, I agree with what you've said about Raging Bolt in general if it's given the right support, as with reliable sun/terrain setters (National Dex for example), Bolt is noticeably hard to stop from the teams I've used it on.

Pinchurin is obviously not worth running, but if you can manage to get Electric Terrain up via any of your teammates:

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

Like you said, stopping this thing without a Ground type would be a heavy task, and when you can switch types with the click of a button, that's not a final answer.

That said, I don't think Raging Bolt is problematic in the main SV OU given the limited setters (nor NDOU for that matter), I just wanted to add on that I agree that Raging Bolt isn't actually bad, it's a very good wallbreaker when you set the conditions.

Precisely. I agree. Thanks also for correcting which pokemon I meant (Pinurchin not Pyukmyu or whatever). Honestly it was dumb that they didn't let Tapu Koko or any of the other Tapus back in when Lunala, Solgaleo and Necrozma got to step back in. Electric Terrain needs some new pokemon, what with Grassy Terrain getting all the spotlight.

This just means that overall, I'd say Raging Bolt's current optimal spot is in Doubles/VGC, as it gets access to Koraidon and Miraidon, with a very good mixed team being very viable (Fun fact, Miraidon can run solar beam counters against ground types. )

Currently I'd say the teams I've tested are Kyogre, Miraidon rain Terrain, and Koraidon, Miraidon Sun Terrain. However in the rain terrain in particular, its better off using Electroshot Archaludon instead.

 

[Conflux123]

I'm more of a Doubles Player, cause it makes more pokemon I like viable and i can play with legendary pokemon which is fun. But don't overestimate your screens. Another option you could consider is having an electric Terrain setter instead to really boost the offense obscenely. Consider prankster Thundurus as both a screen setter and an electric terrain setter to prep Raging Bolt, or maybe run a Pyukmyu suicide.

I'm more of a Doubles Player, cause it makes more pokemon I like viable and i can play with legendary pokemon which is fun. But don't overestimate your screens. Another option you could consider is having an electric Terrain setter instead to really boost the offense obscenely. Consider prankster Thundurus as both a screen setter and an electric terrain setter to prep Raging Bolt, or maybe run a Pyukmyu suicide.

Okay thanks. I only play singles, and I guess I got overconfident about my screens after my Raging Bolt took only about 40% from non boosted offensive archaludon’s dragon pulse after one calm mind.

 

[Welcome to mars]

While you babbled about cobalion and whined about serperior, i mastered the arts of the forbidden titan and the power of charred boulder

when you poop without pissing
Golem-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Galvanize
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Protect / fire punch
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake

the feats of the golem surpass your mortal plane and at the bottom of the ladder, he shall come and you bow before him no matter what, for he is only pu because if players somehow lose with his power by their side, he will travel towards their home through the storms and strike down with the might of a choice banded stone edge, it is far too lethal for your mortal use, so continue using whatever sample team pinkacross brews, for the lives of you weaklings will probably depend on it, but if thy skill level is high enough to where you can utilise this beast, indulge in the dark arts with me

+2 4 Atk Golem-Alola Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 262-310 (90 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 4 Atk Galvanize Golem-Alola Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 207-244 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golem-Alola on a critical hit: 246-290 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 4 Atk Galvanize Golem-Alola Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 172-203 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Conflux123]

I don't know about OU honestly, since it really IS easy to just switch in Gouging fire where 3 Leafstorm boosts still won't be enough to do much. But you could consider using him in Doubles. With good follow me support Serperior becomes a powerful threat immensely quickly in Doubles. However if you want my opinion, the best Grass Type in game right now is Growth, Weather Ball, Chlorophyll Venusaur, who can also run Earth Power to obliterate opposing fire types. I'd say Venusaur is the competition to Hisuian Liligant's crown as the ultra powered grass type of sun teams. Starting Growth under screens and then spamming gigadrain to replenish the hits you took to Growth in the first place is incredible.

I only play singles so, but thanks for the suggestion I will from now on switch gouging fire in on Serperior.

 

[TCTphantom]

We have a brand new SV OU tiering survey on the DLC2 metagame! Be sure to check out our new forum-based survey and respond: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-9907969

This survey came out on my birthday, so you are all legally required to give Gholdengo a 5 /s (not on the birthday part)


Being serious, here were my thoughts.

Meta fun: 8, this honestly is the best meta we have had since home. It isn’t perfect, but there’s a lot to enjoy. The tier feels super diverse with plenty of options to mess with. Balance, BO, HO, Weather, you name it. It honestly feels like you can do so much in the tier right now. There are structural issues, but overall I think this meta is a blast.

Meta competitiveness: 7. I think here we can split hairs a bit more, but I genuinely think this is a pretty skill testing meta. You can’t build for everything, but that’s always been true for mons. It’s just now the power level is that much higher. Sure, Roaring Moon sweeps aren’t super competitive, but the tier feels in a good spot.

kokoloko method: No thanks. I talked about this in the thread for it, but this meta isn’t the place for it imo. DLC1 had enough chaos in the mix and threats close in power level/problematic nature to each other it could have worked there imo. Right now… I just don’t think that’s needed. The Kokoloko method is a last resort, where aggressive action is needed as swiftly as possible. We don’t need that right now.

1. Honestly, man’s fine.

Handling Gambit is easier than ever right now. Skarm helps a ton by giving us a super strong gambit check for balance, on top of our existing checks like Zamazenta or Tusk for example. Gambit doesn’t feel nearly as constraining. It also helps that we have way more good wincons in the tier rn. A big part of what made Gambit explode in popularity was it was just the most consistent late game wincon you could ask for. Now, we have so many other options Gambit doesn’t feel as required for teams.

1. Compared to Kingambit, I think there’s more of a reason to be scared of Volc: it’s a very strong set up sweeper that has limited defensive counterplay due to Tera Blast. That being said… it feels fine rn? We have a surplus of speed control right now that makes Volc feel more manageable. It could easily be a problem down the line, but I don’t think it’s a priority right now.

1. I’m honestly shocked it made the survey. I mean, it’s good but it doesn’t feel egregious right now. I think it actually adds a lot to the tier, which was starving for good electric types besides Zapdos.

1… For now. I honestly am pretty scared of this long term, at least with its sun DD sets. But I feel like this could easily settle into the meta similar to how Walking Wake did. Yeah, it’s nuts under weather. Outside of it, DD feels very manageable. I also love the presence bulky Fire brings to the tier. It’s a great utility check to a bunch of stuff.

2. Hot take, but Deoxys Speed wouldn’t even be in the first five mons in the tier I’d look into. I think it’s settled into the tier surprisingly nicely.

I think hazard lead and screen lead sets are fine. At the end of the day, I don’t think either set is that offensive in modern OU. We have sacrifice leads like Glimmora or even Meowscarada. We have screen setters like Grimmsnarl and Alolan Ninetales. The main advantage Deoxys offers over them is even more consistency, but that isn’t inherently a problem. The best argument against these sets are their comparatively low risk high reward nature, but I’m fine with that.

What I am a bit more concerned about (and what I think most people should be concerned about) are the offense sets. LO 4 attacks and Nasty Plot are similar in practice to Offensive Dragapult, except in exchange for better dual stab you get Nasty Plot and a ton of speed. These sets are certainly strong, but they don’t feel too overbearing. I don’t think it’s a priority and I am shocked some people are giving it high ratings off the hazard set alone. If anything, I’d give it a 1 off of those sets. Its the offensive sets that have the real sauce and we should keep an eye on.

2. Boulder is very silly as a set up mon, but it feels kinda fine? It’s super one dimensional and I find that compared to other mons, it can struggle to get that initial SD up. That being said, when it goes off hoo boy. This is probably the second best offensive wincon in the tier rn for my money, which is saying a lot. It feels manageable due to Boulders mediocre defensive profile and being forced into Booster SD,


2. Yes, Tera makes this thing gross. Sub Seed or glare can weasel its way past its checks, but honestly I’m not sold it’s an immediate issue? The tier has plenty of grass resists that stop the headway it can make, forcing it to play games with sub sets. It feels constraining but so do most top threats. I feel like with this, Enamorus, and Volc on the radar and all being seen as dangerous mons by part of the community, we might want to entertain Tera Blast as a discussion topic. It’s certainly pushed a bunch of mons to the brink.

I gave this a 2, but I am leaning a 3 upon discussing it more. Kyurem is just so versatile even with its hazard weakness and mediocre coverage. Switching into Specs is rough, and you have sub dd which has slightly different checks on top of it. I think it’s not an immediate concern, but it certainly should be something we act on sooner rather than later.

3. I hate dealing with this mon on balance, it feels even more oppressive than Kyurem. The only thing Kyurem has over it is its set diversity. This thing has two sets and both make me mad. Specs is legit so hard for balance to deal with outside of glowking, and stellar Tera blasts or just earth power make even him a risky switch in. Scarf is weaker but has a much better offense mu, but even vs offense it trades decently enough.

4. This imo is one of the two good targets for action right now. Moon is like the other dumb set up sweepers, except I find it snowballs harder and is harder to revenge kill. At least Gambit has defensive checks in the back. At least Volc’s speed tier isn’t amazing. Roaring Moon is just a super consistent wincon that always is putting in work.

4. Yes, I know Golden Joe has his defenders. I am not one of them. One of the chief complains I feel most people have about this meta is the state of hazards. Last time, we looked at Gliscor and banned it. I feel like right now, Gholdengo is the closest thing we have to a true culprit. If you hit Gliscor for spikes, you still have Hamurott, both Deoxys, Ting Lu, Skarmory, you name it. We have so many high quality setters, but only one mon that has made removal as punishing as it is. I feel like the influence this has on the tier is super degenerate and is the cause of a lot of the metas issues.

 

[Cuddly]

Btw is Raging Bolt the biggest benefit of field conditions?
Has Protosynthesis and Solar Beam (Sun)
Has Thunder (Rain)
Has Weather Ball (All Weather)
Has Electric STAB and Rising Voltage (Electric Terrain)
Has Ground Weakness (Grassy Terrain)
Is slow enough for soft Trick Room teams (Trick Room)
Is fast enough for Tailwind (Tailwind)
Has several inaccurate moves (Gravity)
It’s kind of unfair with Iron Crown not benefiting that much from all Terrains, much less all weathers.

 

[kd458]

DLC2 Survey 1 Votes

Figured I'd drop a post with these, a little late to the party but wanted to explain my votes and have enjoyed reading the insights of other voters both qualified and not.

Enjoyment: 8
This meta has been fun as shit to me and by far the best state OU's been in since mid-Home meta, maybe it's just because I like loading Meow Fat (been using this team recently) and grinding out 100+ turn balance vs balance hazard games but it's actually fun and feels like you need a brain to play.

Competitiveness: 7
Honestly I do think this meta requires a fair bit of skill to play and multiple playstyles are viable, bulky balance with dual hazards is probably a little too overtuned but Stall is usable, HO is good and this is the first time that all four forms of weather are actually somewhat viable (although they definitely aren't on a level playing field). BO kinda suffers imo but it's still playable.

: 2
This might be higher later, but I've actually not been finding Deo-S as overbearing as I expected. Sash lead is not bad but absolutely not broken, I think the most problematic sets are offensive when played well (i.e, get a Knock onto the switch-in at the start of the game, switch out and use other mons plus Deo to force those switches and chip it down then later be an actual threat). Good mon but it's not too restricting in the builder and has its limitations right now.

: 3
This was very close between a 3 and a 4, but I think it's for sure not uncheckable and while Specs sets are the most broken they aren't even the best right now because of the disgustingly bad hazard weakness, if that makes any sense. Could easily move up to a 4, best set imo is the mixed boots set with Scale Shot - Ice Beam - EP - Freeze Dry / Draco that I've seen on some high level balance teams as it's insanely threatening after a speed boost while also getting big damage into special walls like Blissey. Great mon that probably needs looking into in future.

: 4
This is definitely not objectively broken, so why did I give it a 4? It's just a brainless, zero skill matchup fish to me that'll do nothing in some games because it has the wrong set but instantly win in others because you picked the right 4th move in the builder. I disagree with takes that it adds a lot to the tier, Rilla isn't super prevalent rn and you aren't actually checking many other physical attackers with even invested PhysDef, it's basically just fishing for 30% burn procs and praying. Has clear checks and isn't actually super broken, it's genuinely just completely skillless cheese to me.

: 5
Genuinely nothing came back that actually counters this guy, Skarm is great until you run into Taunt Tera Flying (which is the best set imo) and they start DD'ing on your dumb ass. It may be more of a 4 than a 5 as it isn't exactly dominating the tier but it feels like consistent counterplay has not improved at all since the DLC1 meta and this mon is still as broken as it was before. Have fun running into the wrong set!

: 2
Can be really threatening on sun but it's not unwallable and not unkillable, with an exploitable hazard weakness on Booster sets while the immediate breaking power of boots isn't too high. Could be worth keeping an eye on but yeah it's pretty fine in the metagame right now.

: 2
Definitely a little cheap but it doesn't feel broken at all, I don't understand the outcry of 'ban Serp' when the speed tier is just okay, the typing is pretty horrible and unless you build a Serp-weak team that lets it sweep as soon as it first comes in you probably aren't going to get 6-0d by 8 Leaf Storms and coverage that only exists when they're forced to tera. Most banworthy thing about it is Glare + Sub fishing lmao

: 1
I've seen some great players rate it as high as a 4 and I do respect that as it feels hard to take down and way stronger than it makes sense for it to be, but to me this just feels like a healthy component of the metagame that does have ways of wearing down its common switch-ins but struggles to sweep outside of the late game, with Thunderclap balanced out by common resistances and immunities.

: 2
Great mon, the speed tier is for sure crazy but it's pretty one dimensional and the base typing is horrible, a lot of things can live a hit from +2 and kill it back. Tera does help this out (particularly with resisting priority) and it has options to help muscle through its checks, but this really does feel similar to Valiant in that it's really not broken, just really good.

: 2
Another Contrary mon that I don't really understand calls to ban, definitely not broken at all without Tera Blast Stellar and that will always force you to use your Tera and run Scarf (i.e. be Rocks weak). The immediate breaking power of Scarf isn't too high and Enam is as frail as ever especially with Tera Stellar having no defensive use, if you don't play like shit and give this several free boosts you'll usually be fine. A little more problematic than Serp but not by much.

: 3
I'm a mixed bag on Ghold, on the one hand it clearly does have a meta-warping effect on OU and I'd be interested in seeing a meta without it, but on the other I really don't know if Corvi and maybe Mandi coming back to Defog would save the tier from hazards when most of the best defensive mons in the tier have hazards as a pretty easy inclusion in their movesets and most of the previously good Defoggers like Lando-T, Torn-T, Zapdos, Rotom, the Latis and even Moltres have had it gutted from their movepools. Feels limited itself by hazards, I don't like non-boots on hazard stack right now and it gives a free Knock to more than 1 mon in the meta.

: 2
Late game Tera Gambit is still cheese, but this is the first time I'd rate it less than a 3 or 4 in all of SVOU. Skarmory is a great hard check / counter, Zamazenta is really strong in this meta to make it even more Tera-hungry than usual, outside of Fallen 4 / 5 it doesn't usually get a solid shot at doing anything unless it's under veil. Still great and can bs its way through an endgame but yeah I do think it's the most manageable it's been in a long while.

Kokoloko Method: No
Wrote a long post about this here, don't really have much more to add but tl;dr I don't think this is a reasonable thing to do right now and honestly most of the things people are suggesting to be QB'd and retested in that thread are just not broken at all. Read my post in the discussion thread for more insight!

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

So having played well over 100 games between last Night and this morning, yea the meta is fine. 8 overall and 9 for competitiveness. Never really felt like any of my loses were unfair or my wins were coming too easy.

Can go either way, and they were the Taunt anti lead variants, which aren't very hard to deal with. 2

A bit overhyped. The hazard meta and it's lack of coverage options keeps it in check, especially if you're running the specs variant. 1

Really annoying with Stellar Tera Blast giving it a neutral option across the board that plays into its Ability. Only thing against it is that it uses up your Tera slot, but it snowballs extremely quickly if you don't have an immediate answer. 3

It's fine. Setup sweeper with Dragon Dance, but being weak to SR and common Ground types limits it. It's speed tier is pretty manageable before it gets up that DD. 1

Special Kingambit, but without the stupid ability and much easier to counter. Very bulky, but also very slow without its signature move. No coverage for its STABS either. 1

Not having those 9 Attack points from Terrakion matters so much more than people realize when it's best STAB option doesn't even break 100 BP. You basically need Tera Ground EQ or Tera Fight CC or risk a turn on SD otherwise, you have no way of going over most Steel types in the tier. This thing would kill for a better physical Psychic STAB over Zen Headbutt. 1

Blocking Hazard removal is still very annoying, that said, I feel like it's been much easier to deal with. Gouging Fire runs it off, letting it get a turn of DD. Darkrai nukes it. Excadrill is back Etc etc. 3 only for its Hazard control still being top tier.

Serperior, but it's weak to Hazards and has to run a choice item to outspeed everything else. Contrary Stellar Tera Blast is still obnoxious though. 2

Didn't really see it much, and the few I did never really accomplished a lot. That said, it's still the same as ever. Tera Flying Acrobatics is a nuke button, only stopped by a select few. 4

Quiver Dance is deadly, and even unaware Users can't sleep on it. Still very very good, but doesn't feel banworthy imo 2

 

[scourgesys]

hello, i'm a beginner at competitive play - been studying it from afar from years but only recently began actually playing it - so pray forgive anything wrong i might say. that said, i have a question that doesn't really fit the SQSA thread, as i believe it's quite nuanced.

what is the philosophy behind not banning sucker punch (and thunderclap, for that matter)? i understand it has a big aspect of skill and prediction to it, but it feels like every game with a sucker mon always has a moment where it turns into a mind game - two pokemon staying in, one has sucker punch, the other has to choose when to use a status move and when to attack, and whoever guesses wrong first loses the matchup. i don't see how that's skill-based, it seems like just a guessing game that relies on pure luck, with no proper information to make an actually educated guess. sucker punch is a well-designed, fun, and skillful move, until you get to the mind games.

to me, this sounds like the opposite of what smogon wants for competitive play. i know i'm not that experienced though, so i'm asking those who know more than me - what's the explanation?

 

[Welcome to mars]

hello, i'm a beginner at competitive play - been studying it from afar from years but only recently began actually playing it - so pray forgive anything wrong i might say. that said, i have a question that doesn't really fit the SQSA thread, as i believe it's quite nuanced.

what is the philosophy behind not banning sucker punch (and thunderclap, for that matter)? i understand it has a big aspect of skill and prediction to it, but it feels like every game with a sucker mon always has a moment where it turns into a mind game - two pokemon staying in, one has sucker punch, the other has to choose when to use a status move and when to attack, and whoever guesses wrong first loses the matchup. i don't see how that's skill-based, it seems like just a guessing game that relies on pure luck, with no proper information to make an actually educated guess. sucker punch is a well-designed, fun, and skillful move, until you get to the mind games.

to me, this sounds like the opposite of what smogon wants for competitive play. i know i'm not that experienced though, so i'm asking those who know more than me - what's the explanation?

Its because most pokemon don’t turn sucker punch into something uncompetitive, the closest being pre gen 9 bisharp and kingambit, when sucker punch is mindgames, its normally because the enemy pokemon would be at low health, moves like will o wisp can mess up sucker punch too because then sucker punch won’t hit as hard, which is why kingambit used to run lum berry

while youre question is complex and i might have botched the reponse, i think you should have posted it in the SQSA thread, but that could just be me

 

[fightnugget]

hello, i'm a beginner at competitive play - been studying it from afar from years but only recently began actually playing it - so pray forgive anything wrong i might say. that said, i have a question that doesn't really fit the SQSA thread, as i believe it's quite nuanced.

what is the philosophy behind not banning sucker punch (and thunderclap, for that matter)? i understand it has a big aspect of skill and prediction to it, but it feels like every game with a sucker mon always has a moment where it turns into a mind game - two pokemon staying in, one has sucker punch, the other has to choose when to use a status move and when to attack, and whoever guesses wrong first loses the matchup. i don't see how that's skill-based, it seems like just a guessing game that relies on pure luck, with no proper information to make an actually educated guess. sucker punch is a well-designed, fun, and skillful move, until you get to the mind games.

to me, this sounds like the opposite of what smogon wants for competitive play. i know i'm not that experienced though, so i'm asking those who know more than me - what's the explanation?

Priority is one of the most reliable forms of speed control in the metagame, which is important considering the high speed tiers immediately available to so many mons. The two attacks you mentioned while among the most powerful priority options are actually some of the least reliable in the game because you can lose a mind game with them, failing in the face of status moves and faster priority.

Sucker Punch feels more cheap than others because it has a phenomenal abuser in the tier rn (Kingambit) and because so many mons that use it also get access to Swords Dance.

The power level of the banned moves in the tier (Shed Tail, Last Respects, OHKOs) are much higher than these two attacks.

 

[Tio Chico]

I read in every dlc1 surveys that Terastal would be discussed later. When is later?
Volcarona, Enamorus, Serperior, and even Regieleki depend on this for a complete and fair analysis.
How long will we walk in circles around this?
Can anyone even say no and let us accept this, even when at one time 59% of the community wanted some action?

 

[1LDK]

Can anyone even say no and let us accept this, even when at one time 59% of the community wanted some action?

after SPL maybe