Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I don’t agree with you about chess. There are so many viable openings in chess, that it is literally up to what opening you like the best.
I'm a 1740 in chess (so I suck) but my 2 cents about this:
'So many viable openings' exists at 900-1600 chess ELO mostly. Above that, many people will have specific preparation for games, and with offbeat openings that put you even at a point's disadvantage, many 1700+ chess players can convert it into a win. Unless, of course, you're a 1700 playing Magnus or Hikaru, where you will get bongclouded and still be destroyed. Unorthodox openings can sometimes be effective, such as breaking out of your routine and catching someone else off guard, but this will likely only happen at the very top level where each GM analyses other GM's games in tournaments to calculate playing style. Unorthodox openings often work lower down the chess ladder but make you easily destroyed at higher levels, like for example most showdown salt youtubers' gimmick teams/playstyles. Offbeat openings are not bad, and are good to play with your friends to have fun, but you should never bring it to a tournament like how you probably won't bring Slaking to a tournament in SV.
 
You're right, you sometimes have to accept is that while some mons have a niche, there's a reason they are niche. For example, I've used choice band araquanid in games. Has it won games for me, yes. Is it good? potentially. Is it OU material, hell no. When you have a mon that is not OU or UU, you have to first say that this mon has flaws, and say what those flaws are. Most of the time, it won't be a DPP clefable or nidoqueen situation, that mon still won't be good. However, you should experiment with lower tier mons if you want to, just don't expect them to be the best.


I agree with the fact that there shouldn't be just only a few viable mons, but sometimes having one mon that is so good isn't bad. What I mean by that is a mon that is used a lot and thus the tier revolves around it, but it isn't insanly overpowered. I'm talking about stuff like landorus in previous gens or great tusk. They promote diversity and help keep the metagame healthy. Heck, you could even consider GSC snorlax in that category. It help keeps in check raikou and zapdos, and many teams revolve around enabling it or weakening opposing laxes. Banning it wouldn't be for the best as the electrics would run rampant and nothing would really be gained from the ban, just chaos that could be avoided in a metagame that isn't really that bad. I know that people think GSC is stale, but I disagree, every metagame is cool and should be appreciated. Tangent aside, some centralisation is alright, it's when that centralisation limits options severly, that's when it is a problem.
I agree with you and I forgot to say just that in my comment. I do think that it is healthy for the meta to have a little bit of centralization because if everything is equally good, then that’s also a problem.
 
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I'm a 1740 in chess (so I suck) but my 2 cents about this:
'So many viable openings' exists at 900-1600 chess ELO mostly. Above that, many people will have specific preparation for games, and with offbeat openings that put you even at a point's disadvantage, many 1700+ chess players can convert it into a win. Unless, of course, you're a 1700 playing Magnus or Hikaru, where you will get bongclouded and still be destroyed. Unorthodox openings can sometimes be effective, such as breaking out of your routine and catching someone else off guard, but this will likely only happen at the very top level where each GM analyses other GM's games in tournaments to calculate playing style. Unorthodox openings often work lower down the chess ladder but make you easily destroyed at higher levels, like for example most showdown salt youtubers' gimmick teams/playstyles. Offbeat openings are not bad, and are good to play with your friends to have fun, but you should never bring it to a tournament like how you probably won't bring Slaking to a tournament in SV.
I wasn’t talking about offbeat openings, I was talking about the multiple variations of the openings e4, d4, reti, etc. etc. I see the multiple variations of a starting move as different as long as they are different enough, because the Sicilian is definitely not there same as the symmetrical king’s pawn. Also interestingly IM Eric Rosen has beaten grandmasters with his Stanford gambit, although I do know this is probably because of a lot of various reasons other than offbeat openings being good it’s just something interesting to note.
 
I wasn’t talking about offbeat openings, I was talking about the multiple variations of the openings e4, d4, reti, etc. etc. I see the multiple variations of a starting move as different as long as they are different enough, because the Sicilian is definitely not there same as the symmetrical king’s pawn. Also interestingly IM Eric Rosen has beaten grandmasters with his Stanford gambit, although I do know this is probably because of a lot of various reasons other than offbeat openings being good it’s just something interesting to note.
Yes, but many people could consider the multiple variations outside of the main ones to be not the best at higher level, since a decent amount throw away some advantage and can make your position much harder. Sorry that my original post was not that clarified.

As a bit of a thought, aren't using :Shedinja: (in non-SV formats) and other gimmick strats kind of like the Scholars Mate? If you are completely unprepared, you can lose to it but otherwise you are playing at a huge disadvantage (lack of development and typically a 5 v 6, respectively).

What's everyone's predictions for UU drops this month? I'm counting on Deoxys-Defense myself, which will be all kinds of funny.
:Landorus-Therian:. It's landover.
As a follow up question, what mons will be surprise staying in OU/staying due to new toy syndrome but dropping soon after?
 
Why are we talking about chess again? I think we're past the point of analogy here. Let's get back on track a bit.

What's everyone's predictions for UU drops this month? I'm counting on Deoxys-Defense myself, which will be all kinds of funny.
I think Hydrapple fell off. It was used quite a bit at the start, but I haven't seen as much of it recently since the meta developed. With how many new toys we got, I think the real question is: what do we predict WON'T drop to UU? (of the new stuff). Of the old, I think Zapdos will drop.
 
Yes, but many people could consider the multiple variations outside of the main ones to be not the best at higher level, since a decent amount throw away some advantage and can make your position much harder. Sorry that my original post was not that clarified.

As a bit of a thought, aren't using :Shedinja: (in non-SV formats) and other gimmick strats kind of like the Scholars Mate? If you are completely unprepared, you can lose to it but otherwise you are playing at a huge disadvantage (lack of development and typically a 5 v 6, respectively).


:Landorus-Therian:. It's landover.
As a follow up question, what mons will be surprise staying in OU/staying due to new toy syndrome but dropping soon after?
Thing is there are so many variations that are good that it really isn’t centralizing. Italian, Sicilian open, Sicilian closed, closed ruy Lopez, take the knight in the rug Lopez, there are so many good variations of openings.
 
Why are we talking about chess again? I think we're past the point of analogy here. Let's get back on track a bit.

What's everyone's predictions for UU drops this month? I'm counting on Deoxys-Defense myself, which will be all kinds of funny.
I agree with deoxys d and think that maybe even darkrai will fall back to uu maybe. I haven’t seen very much at all and it’s hard to fit in the teams that I build. I think once people exhaust their nostalgia they’ll go back to playing with something else. Also raging bolt gets a lot of underserved hate so there’s a small chance of that sliding back to uu as well I guess.
 
Why are we talking about chess again? I think we're past the point of analogy here. Let's get back on track a bit.

What's everyone's predictions for UU drops this month? I'm counting on Deoxys-Defense myself, which will be all kinds of funny.
Ceruledge, lando (sadly) Deo-D, Garchomp and potentially iron moth (haven't seen any recently) dropping. Oh, almost all of the DLC mons, those too. :)

Also, completely unrelated, but I was looking through some of my older teams, and on one of my Gen 8 teams, I had a salac berry regieleki. Wtf was I cooking.
 
As a follow up question, what mons will be surprise staying in OU/staying due to new toy syndrome but dropping soon after?
I need Araquanid in the tier stat.

Realistically though? Blaziken. Some people hyped it up as being Ubers-worthy with Tera before it dropped, but nowadays I very rarely see it and it only sometimes actually accomplishes anything. Blaziken's going to UU for sure.
Also, completely unrelated, but I was looking through some of my older teams, and on one of my Gen 8 teams, I had a salac berry regieleki. Wtf was I cooking.
Reminds me of something...
1703931476284.png
 
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I’ve been building this sun offence team after I saw people discussing how sun might be good. Can I have some advice on my team because this is my first weather team: (ignore the terrible nicknames I made them while sleep-deprived lol.)
https://pokepast.es/be57ecb5909cf024
Don’t tell anyone I gave you this tech, but
Gouging Fire @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 Def / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake
- Morning Sun
You get Proto Boost in Sun to boost Def, then after Dragon Dance once Sun goes away you get Atk boost from Booster Energy.
 
Don’t tell anyone I gave you this tech, but
Gouging Fire @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 Def / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake
- Morning Sun
You get Proto Boost in Sun to boost Def, then after Dragon Dance once Sun goes away you get Atk boost from Booster Energy.
So it works by letting you get a defense boost to set up a dragon dance? Do I have the time this for the turn before sun ends? And also what are the defense evs for? Thanks a lot for the help.
 
Don’t tell anyone I gave you this tech, but
Gouging Fire @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 Def / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake
- Morning Sun
You get Proto Boost in Sun to boost Def, then after Dragon Dance once Sun goes away you get Atk boost from Booster Energy.
wait, is that how it works? i thought the proto boost only changed if speed was involved
 
So it works by letting you get a defense boost to set up a dragon dance? Do I have the time this for the turn before sun ends? And also what are the defense evs for? Thanks a lot for the help.
So how it works is this.
-When Sun is up, Protosynthesis will boost highest stat currently (Def) and won’t use up Booster Energy
-When Sun is negated, removed, or goes away, Booster Energy is consumed and boosts highest stat after stat boosts (Atk if you used Dragon Dance)
Stat changes actually affect Proto/Quark. You commonly see with with Sticky Webs changing boost Iron Valiant and Boulder get.
wait, is that how it works? i thought the proto boost only changed if speed was involved
I’m pretty sure that’s how it works. I remember seeing some gameplay where Flutter Mane got SpA boost under the Sun, got SpA drop from like Mystical Fire and Spe from like Icy Wind, and once Sun faded got a SpD boost.
 
So how it works is this.
-When Sun is up, Protosynthesis will boost highest stat currently (Def) and won’t use up Booster Energy
-When Sun is negated, removed, or goes away, Booster Energy is consumed and boosts highest stat after stat boosts (Atk if you used Dragon Dance)
Stat changes actually affect Proto/Quark. You commonly see with with Sticky Webs changing boost Iron Valiant and Boulder get.

I’m pretty sure that’s how it works. I remember seeing some gameplay where Flutter Mane got SpA boost under the Sun, got SpA drop from like Mystical Fire and Spe from like Icy Wind, and once Sun faded got a SpD boost.
So apparently when protosynthesis goes away after sun, attack becomes higher than defense and the new boost from booster energy boosts attack now? So the defense Evs are for making sure you boost your defense in sun? I think I get how to play it though so you use the defense boost to set up dragon dances and then when sun fades the game overlays the old protosynthesis boost with the new one which now boosts attack and turns gouging fire into a strong wallbreaker. Thanks. Is this set worth using/better than the set I’m using currently because it looks like knock off could get annoying and also it seems it relies in a surprise factor? I’m not sure.
 
Also is dragapult good in the meta currently? It’s my favourite Mon but in my opinion the meta is just so hostile to it with hatterene getting back moon and volc to form the classic ho core again and so many booster energy users running around, and as always kingambit will be looming around the corner. My friend trolled me with a scarf set before because he knew I would try to fit dragapult on a team but I feel like scarf is not viable right now. Is the most successful set going to be a utility one running status?
 
My friend trolled me with a scarf ditto as a revenge killer. Is there any chance of ditto being viable in this meta as a revenge killer? It can revenge dragapult, raging bolt, gouging fire, outrage moon sets, and more examples I can’t think of.
 

Choice Item Triple Dinosaur Sun is the most fun I've had in this silly game in a long time. I'm blindly clicking buttons and for some reason almost at 1900. There's very little thought required behind this team. Defensive backbone? Opposing Resists? What are those?

Just get a dino in where there are no immunities, click tera, and then fire away. It's really BS and your opponents have every right to be mad about it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 290-342 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 393-463 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:gouging fire:
Fire Move (Gouging Fire) @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Heat Crash
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Just absurd power. everyone panic switches because Dragon Dance sets are so scary. Then something just dies. Go faster than Monke

:walking wake:
Water Move (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flip Turn
- Flamethrower


Nothing new. Click the water button.

:raging bolt:
Electric Move (Raging Bolt) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch
- Weather Ball
- Thunderclap


Specs Draco is so juiced up. It's really crazy. There is room to explore the Tera Type, 4th move, and EVs. I think you need weather ball, since goofy guys will try try to use Iron Treads. Tera Grass Solar Beam destroys Ting-Lu. Magnet + Calm Mind is a great bluff and sweeper. Tera Fairy to 1v1 opposing dragons. This thing also unfairly fat.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Tera Electric Raging Bolt: 351-414 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO wtf

:Great Tusk: spicy set
Rapid Spin Hog (Great Tusk) @ Eject Pack
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Close Combat
- Temper Flare
- Headlong Rush


4 Atk Tera Fire Great Tusk Temper Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 350-414 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO. One tweak you can consider is putting Sunny Day on Great Tusk. This is a great way to control the weather.

vs: :Dondozo::Blissey::Landorus-therian::Sinistcha::Weezing Galar::Cinderace:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023195689?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023236917?p2

In place of :Great Tusk: and :Kingambit:, I've toyed with things. like :Roaring Moon:+:Iron Treads:. :Archaludon:+:Rillaboom:, :Venusaur:, and even :Brute Bonnet:. The biggest challenge can be strong late game priority coming from a :dragonite:or the obvious fairy and ice weaknesses that emerge with this many dragon types. Maybe fat :volcarona: would be cool.

Has anyone else had success making a team around all three of these absolute behemoths in Sun? How do you support them?
 
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Choice Item Dinosaur Sun is the most fun I've had in this silly game in a long time. I'm blindly clicking buttons and for some reason almost at 1900. There's very little thought required behind this team. Defensive backbone? Opposing Resists? What are those?

Just get a dino in where there are no immunities, click tera, and then fire away. It's really BS and your opponents have every right to be mad about it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 290-342 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 393-463 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:ss:
Fire Move (Gouging Fire) @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Heat Crash
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Just absurd power. everyone panic switches because Dragon Dance sets are so scary. Then something just dies. Go faster than Monke

:ss:
Water Move (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flip Turn
- Flamethrower


Nothing new. Click the water button.

:raging bolt:
Electric Move (Raging Bolt) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch
- Weather Ball
- Thunderclap


Specs Draco is so juiced up. It's really crazy. There is room to explore the Tera Type, 4th move, and EVs. I think you need weather ball, since goofy guys will try try to use Iron Treads. Tera Grass Solar Beam destroys Ting-Lu. Magnet + Calm Mind is a great bluff and sweeper. Tera Fairy to 1v1 opposing dragons. This thing also unfairly fat.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Tera Electric Raging Bolt: 351-414 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO wtf

:Great Tusk: spicy set
Rapid Spin Hog (Great Tusk) @ Eject Pack
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Close Combat
- Temper Flare
- Headlong Rush


4 Atk Tera Fire Great Tusk Temper Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 350-414 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO. One tweak you can consider is putting Sunny Day on Great Tusk. This is a great way to control the weather.​

Has anyone else had success making a team around all three of these absolute behemoths in Sun? How do you support them?
*clears throat* POWER RANGERS DINO CHARGE
Ok but this team looks cool as hell, I am going to try it out, but also put this in rate my team
 
My friend trolled me with a scarf ditto as a revenge killer. Is there any chance of ditto being viable in this meta as a revenge killer? It can revenge dragapult, raging bolt, gouging fire, outrage moon sets, and more examples I can’t think of.
Scarf Ditto is a very classic revenge killer thanks to it being able to copy Speed Boosts and then apply a Scarf atop that. That being said, it's only as good as your opponent's team, and loses to Substitute very hard. I'm not sure how Imposter interacts with ProtoDrive, either
 
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