Given cart accuracy is one of the golden rules of tiering policy, that alone is in fact a sufficient point. We have a complex ban on Sleep. This should not be a complex ban, but a flat ban.
This is exactly itGiven cart accuracy is one of the golden rules of tiering policy, that alone is in fact a sufficient point.
So by that logic terastillization can never be banned because it wouldn’t be cart accurate?This is exactly it
As I've said in another post, so many proposals for how to handle a ban or a policy are shot down with the reason "You can't replicate that on cart"
So if you want to be able to keep using that reason, you best clean up old archaic rulings from 2 decades ago to keep it up to that standard, or people will keep pointing to it, and you'll deserve that headache.
On their own, maybe not. But combined, absolutely. You could stretch the truth a bit and say that HP percentage mod is "not cart accurate", but it is not archaic. Nobody would say that you would ban it, because solely of cart accuracy. There is probably something that is archaic, but cart accurate, so it stays because it technically may be better.Explain to me why sleep clause is a problem then. Something outside that its “not cart accurate” and “archaic” because those aren’t sufficient reasons to remove it.
Give some reasons why it makes the metagame uncompetitive and unhealthy.
This is a false equivalency. The banning of Terastalization would be like Dynamax, which is to say a gentleman's agreement to not press the Terastalize/Dynamax button at any point in the match. This is the same as any other ban we have, such as agreeing to not bring Ubers to OU, or to not use banned abilities/moves. These are not mods to the game like Sleep Clause is.So by that logic terastillization can never be banned because it wouldn’t be cart accurate?
Banning Dynamax was also cart innacurate. Smogon has always abided by its own ruleset and all of sudden sleep clause should be banned because its “cart innacurate”, please.This is a false equivalency. The banning of Terastalization would be like Dynamax, which is to say a gentleman's agreement to not press the Terastalize/Dynamax button at any point in the match. This is the same as any other ban we have, such as agreeing to not bring Ubers to OU, or to not use banned abilities/moves. These are not mods to the game like Sleep Clause is.
Explain to me why sleep clause is a problem then. Something outside that its “not cart accurate” and “archaic” because those aren’t sufficient reasons to remove it.
Give some reasons why it makes the metagame uncompetitive and unhealthy.
But.... it isn't cart inaccurate.Banning Dynamax was also cart innacurate. Smogon has always abided by its own ruleset and all of sudden sleep clause should be banned because its “cart innacurate”, please.
Bravo my man for the confidence to say something so obviously inaccurate with such confidenceThis is a false equivalency. The banning of Terastalization would be like Dynamax, which is to say a gentleman's agreement to not press the Terastalize/Dynamax button at any point in the match. This is the same as any other ban we have, such as agreeing to not bring Ubers to OU, or to not use banned abilities/moves. These are not mods to the game like Sleep Clause is.
4, it is high variance but it doesn't fully cut out skill.It currently is phrased as:
Recently we have seen an uptick in sleep based strategies including Hypnosis Darkrai and Iron Valiant (neither Pokemon is on this current survey); there has been a great deal of discussion surrounding the variable outcomes these strategies may produce. In addition, there has been discussion about how Sleep Clause can be seen as incomplete to the solution, leading to some support for a full fix.
Multiple threads on the topic of sleep moves and the restructuring of sleep clause have been posted, including the Policy Review thread here!
Do you support tiering action on sleep inducing moves? 1: balanced - 3 potentially banworthy - 5 banworthy
That has nothing to do with anything lmaoNerf Miraidons base stat total and ability so that it's at an OU power level and it's not uncompetitive, unhealthy or broken in any way. However, this is unacceptable because it would be modding the game to artificially nerf something, rather than banning it outright.
That has nothing to do with anything lmao
It is cart inaccurate . On cart you can dynamax without problem. But with smogons ruleset you cant at all. Not faithful to cart.But.... it isn't cart inaccurate.
Care to elaborate? I don't see how it's incorrect at all; what modification to the game is required for players to simply not use Tera? How would it be any different from simply not bringing OHKO moves, or an Uber?Bravo my man for the confidence to say something so obviously inaccurate with such confidence
It is cart inaccurate . On cart you can dynamax without problem. But with smogons ruleset you cant at all. Not faithful to cart.
Unsure how anything stated in my post is wrong. Given my assertion is that banning Tera/Dynamax would be/was cart accurate, I would assume you think that is incorrect. At least to my knowledge from posts in the View from the Council thread which even sparked Policy Review, the bans we have are implemented on the teambuilder side to not introduce another loss condition, and so that the moment the game begins, it is then 100% replicable on cart through the use of an impartial judge.Bravo my man for the confidence to say something so obviously inaccurate with such confidence
you're missing the point being made. the idea is that if a game from gen 8 was replicated on cart, the lack of dynamaxing would be explained as a gentlemens agreement between the 2 players to not use the button. showdown does this by just not having the button availableIt is cart inaccurate . On cart you can dynamax without problem. But with smogons ruleset you cant at all. Not faithful to cart.
So by that logic terastillization can never be banned because it wouldn’t be cart accurate?
Smogon singles has always had its own ruleset. Many rules that cant be replicated on cart but still are official for Smogon.
The Dynamax/Terastal ban is very easily enforceable on cart. Just... Don't click the Dynamax button. There are no mechanics that can force a player to Dynamax against their will and force a DQ this way.It is cart inaccurate . On cart you can dynamax without problem. But with smogons ruleset you cant at all. Not faithful to cart.
For sure I understand that its not replicable on cart. But why is it an issue to gen 9’s metagame? Since that the whole point of this discussion.you're missing the point being made. the idea is that if a game from gen 8 was replicated on cart, the lack of dynamaxing would be explained as a gentlemens agreement between the 2 players to not use the button. showdown does this by just not having the button available
this isnt the same as sleep clause though, because sleep clause is impossible to be replicated in any shape or form
It’s absolutely cart accurate because it’s what all other bans are: a gentleman’s agreement. I can’t stop you from clicking the Dynamax button just like I can’t prevent you from pulling up to our on-cart OU game with a Kyogre, but we CAN both agree before the game starts to never click the Dynamax button and not bring our Kyogres. You CAN’T both agree to make sure your sleep moves fail if you’ve already put something to sleep, though. That’s just a modification of the game.It is cart inaccurate . On cart you can dynamax without problem. But with smogons ruleset you cant at all. Not faithful to cart.
For sure I understand that its not replicable on cart. But why is it an issue to gen 9’s metagame? Since that the whole point of this discussion.
1. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2037893026-h8fhl8r8h3xubih8vbhbj5m84cdljnapw (Gliscorless stall btw)
2. Tf are you saying about Gliscor, your whole team (crude recreation) gets 6-0d by spikes. In this metagame? Nah bro that's unacceptable. Yes, that is an unaware Clefable, not even magic guard.
3. Your team does not beat stall in the slightest, Gliscor or not. First off, you burned the kitchen down with that Dragapult set because clearly you forgot that you get walled by Blissey. This is one of the worst sets into stall, maybe ever, aside from screens Pult I guess. Second off, here is a list of stall teams from post-shed tail ban and HOME meta that beat your team:
Pre-HOME Hazard Stack Stall by SupaGmoney
HOME Metagame Regen Stall by SupaGmoney
Ditto Stall by WeirdHamster
Cyclizar Stall by SupaGmoney
Mirror Coat Alomomola Stall by Me
Sticky Hold Gastrodon + Copycat Blissey Stall by Knexhawk
Notice a pattern? All of these teams (except for the second one) have spikes. Guess what, your team gets 6-0d by hazards. Nice! This does not break stall even if there is not a Gliscor present.
4. The stall team you played against? C'mon now that isn't even a good stall team (I'm not the only person that says this), if you find that stall team problematic then don't say that your team should have a good matchup against stall. Okay, it had a Gliscor, but that list of stall teams beat your team anyways and they don't have a Gliscor. Your opponent also lost to you, and guess what; the opponent didn't have spikes.
5. Stall is one of the least dominating playstyles right now, you have to be very good to pull it off consistently and it only has a few sound matchups.
6. If your team actually did have a good matchup into stall, skill issue???
7. Out of any of the mons in OU, you picked Gliscor as broken. View attachment 594151
You look at the entire list of dragons in OU, cross out maybe Dragonite, maybe Dragapult, and maybe Walking Wake (maybe you think it is broken I won't judge), and you literally could have selected any of those mons to get banned. Those mons are far more menacing than a Gliscor. Why did you jump to Gliscor???
As someone who has done this, I can tell you that players that allow this to happen are either playing the most passive teams known to mankind or are just ass. I remember doing this during Gliscor suspect, turn 2 I got tera blast iced by Cinderace, but I got my Gliscor back with good doubles and abusing the fact that my opponent did not know how to punish me. Speaking of this, by the way, why did people even run tera blast ice Cinderace then? It didn't OHKO physically defensive Gliscor all the time, by your logic the Gliscor just took absolutely nothing and will be healthy in just a couple of turns, so why use tera blast ice Cinderace? Why use super effective moves on Gliscor if they don't OHKO anyways?
Because good players know how to punish a low HP Gliscor. Your Gliscor is in range of basically everything, is forced to spam protect every single time it switches in especially if rocks are up (16 pp on protect is gonna drain eventually), so even if it does get to full, it cannot spam recovery anymore.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there were quite a number of good players that believed the Gliscor meta was far healthier and competitive than the Zapdos Gking Ting-Lu Cinderace Waterpon meta. Saying that a mon got banned does not mean it is necessarily broken, especially Gliscor; mon didn't have that great numbers in SCL, and if you want to take a deeper look into it, you should check out this post by xavgb here.
That's all I have to say, please don't make Gliscor ban posts when there are far more pressing mons to talk about guys.
So we would ban a whole status condition because 2 fast mons with hypnosis have the “potential” to abuse it. Id rather suspect test the mons. I just dont think sleep is a prominent problem to the metagame enough to warrant a ban.Because sleep is uncompetitive on Darkrai and Iron Valiant, and rather than ban two very major pokemon it is cleaner to ban sleep, preserving two pokemon, making the metagame entirely cart accurate outside of the timer, making the better player win more often, and causing barely any collateral damage (amoonguss drops 1 or 2 ranks on the VR)
but the pokemon (especially darkrai atm) are not banworthy apart from the brokenness of the status they induce. also ignoring the issue of sleep clause will eventually get us into this position again.So we would ban a whole status condition because 2 fast mons with hypnosis have the “potential” to abuse it. Id rather suspect test the mons. I just dont think sleep is a prominent problem to the metagame enough to warrant a ban.
Ban Sleep | Ban Fast Sleepers | Remove Sleep Clause |
---|---|---|
Amoonguus drops 1/2 VR ranks, everything is stable and the meta is better, future gens are better. | Darkrai, Iron Valiant and maybe Lilligant-Hisui are banned to Ubers, many more mons will be banned in future with sleep. | ANARCHY |
Exactly, its just kicking the can down the road to maintain some sorta status quo, why keep a mistake made 2 decades ago, that does not align with other standards, just because "Well its always been like this"but the pokemon (especially darkrai atm) are not banworthy apart from the brokenness of the status they induce. also ignoring the issue of sleep clause will eventually get us into this position again.