Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[TheTraininator]

I'm saying we shouldn't go there. If you want to have a serious discussion about whether Amoonguss is an example of sleep being uncompetitive, we can, but that's going to drag in the RNG baggage. If you're just looking to score cheap gotcha points using Amoonguss, then knock yourself out.

I just figured that Darkrai, Iron Valiant, two flavors of Lilligant, and apparently Venusaur would be enough sleep abusers to make your case without dragging in the one that's actually complicated.

I mean, I think they are, but some people have been saying that it’s all these partial chance sleep moves on powerful offensive Pokémon who can take games off of one or two extra free turns that are the sole reasons sleep is being brought into question, when in reality even the tier’s premier low-variance defensive sleep spreader has a contentious set as well. When you factor in all of this AFTER we’ve already nerfed sleep using a MOD to do it, and any arguments to the contrary of banning sleep start to remind me of when we kept trying different means to keep Baton Pass around. It’s the mechanic that’s the problem. and it’s always been the mechanic considering we have NEVER let it be completely unrestricted.

 

[Vall]

I do not believe we need to act on Tera immediately and I think we would actually being doing a disservice to the discussion to have an immeduate suspect, but I also do not see myself supporting an outright ban. I could see myself answering Yes to the first question eventually to discuss Tera Blast, but both get a no for me for now. I do think it is important these topics belong on the survey and should continue to be included to give people a chance to voice their opinions though.

Would you mind explaining your thought process on tera suspect to me? To me, it doesn't seem quite as simple as Tera isn't a problem -> No Suspect. If its exclusively waited until the meta was at an unstable point for action to be considered, I would think the results would be inherently biased against tera, as it is only ever able to defend itself when the meta is at its worst. I'm reminded of the last tera suspect, which occured while chien-pao was legal. Its easy to tell how it warped results as people were unironically suggesting that STAB tera was the unhealthy component, whereas now it ais almost never seen.

Ultimately, I don't support action on Tera, however, I want to see the debate occur in a meta that isn't biased towards one outcome.

 

[Shadow Crystal]

I mean we don't need literally every Mon with sleep to be broken for sleep to be banned. Baton pass is banned even though more than half of them will be terrible even with BP. Most passers R plain bad and hard to get off. It's just a few good passers that make it stupid. Same can apply to sleep.

 

[Heatranator]

Okay I just gotta say this but uh, remember when bronzong was OU. This is them now.

Oh how times change, once an OU force, now relegated to PU. The steel type changes may have hurt him, metagross and jirachi hard, but this is just sad.

 

[Cuddly]

I mean we don't need literally every Mon with sleep to be broken for sleep to be banned. Baton pass is banned even though more than half of them will be terrible even with BP. Most passers R plain bad and hard to get off. It's just a few good passers that make it stupid. Same can apply to sleep.

If Sleep Clause isn’t changed and we keep what we currently have, I think it’s be worth considering making Drypass clause (which is something you can actually replicate in game too).
If Sleep is allowed to stay in with a complex and cart innaccurate way, then so should Baton Pass. Plenty of Pokemon could benefit greatly having Baton Pass for the sake of pivoting.
You got;
and are or likely would become metagame staples with Baton Pass as these Pokemon don’t have access to alternate pivoting moves.

 

[Welcome to mars]

its so funny how this is the most balanced OU has been in a while, so people have to find something to whine about and its sleep of all things.

Come on guys...

sigh

As a techically qualifed player who really doesn’t want the removal of sleep clause, the people who want a sleep ban are valid because they actually explained why they think it should just be removed in detail without degrading those who believe otherwise


they are simply expressing a different opinion

Scream Tail @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sing
- Perish Song
- Wish
- Dazzling Gleam

 

[Heatranator]

As a techically qualifed player who really doesn’t want the removal of sleep clause, the people who want a sleep ban are valid because they actually explained why they think it should just be removed in detail without degrading those who believe otherwise


they are simply expressing a different opinion

I kinda don't mind if sleep clause is removed, I am still of the opinion we should ban Darkrai first, the sleep ban statements were actually well informed and convinced me to some degree. The anti ban sleep statements however, oh boy, they were a pile of doo doo, to put it nicely. When someone brings up dynamax as a reason for their arguement, I lose all interest in their arguement. And that is what a anti-ban sleep person did. Please, get better arguements anti-ban sleep people, I so want to support you, but god damn, you are not making it easy. Like, you are pulling on the straws of straws, there is no better arguements you could make? When someone brings up flinch as well, I sigh. At least paralysis had the miniscule shred of reasoning on why it is similar to sleep, it is long term, which is nowhere near enough reasoning but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, but bringing up flinch. Now that, is funny to me.
TLDR, anti-ban people, for the love of god, get good arguements, you are digging your own graves.

 

[Springbris]

i think OU is in a really healthy spot currently and thats mostly because its so broken. i think the existence of like 10 separate threats who on their own would be meta defining and banworthy creates an equilibrium. like would gouging fire have been broken in another generation? yeah, but in a meta with roaring moon, volcarona, kingambit, kyurem, iron boulder, iron valiant, etc it just doesnt make much of a difference. i hope we dont ban any of the offensive threats, only pokemon i can see a real argument for banning at the current moment is gholdengo cause of how much it invalidates counters to hazards.

 

[Eeveeto]

Okay I just gotta say this but uh, remember when bronzong was OU. This is them now.
View attachment 595062
Oh how times change, once an OU force, now relegated to PU. The steel type changes may have hurt him, metagross and jirachi hard, but this is just sad.

I mean, he gained nothing in 5 Gens except Heavy Slam and Body Press. Meanwhile:
-Team preview made him worse.
-Ghost and Dark not being resisted by Steel made him worse.
-Lots of new Steels appearing made him worse. Some of them like Corviknight and Empoleon even get Recovery.
-Air Balloon being alternative to Levitate for Steels also made him worse.
-Explosion nerf made him worse.
-Knock Off distribution made him worse.
-Rest being down to 8 PPs made him worse. He now can't even perpetually wall Kyurem, his one niche in Gen 8 (prior to Kyurem Ban).
-Of course, Kyurem being able to launch a Tera Fire Blast also made him worse. Kyurem, and other Dragons (like Latios, who in BW was well checked by Zong).

Other Mons have been reinventing themselves across Gens (and even Bronzong was still decent in BW and niche TR setter in ORAS and SM), but Bronzong specifically was targeted to become worse every Gen that passed. Truly tragic. Still not unviable though, Kyurem is right there and without Roost this time. Knockless Gliscor is also walled, though Bronzong without set-up moves can't do anything back. Lando is walled, Glimmora is walled, some Valiant and Enamorus sets are walled. You can still do stuff with the Hell Bell, but it's harder.

 

[Heatranator]

Okay, so I was testing another gimmick team (I have 8 on my alt account, and I've revealed two so far, I swear I will reveal more at some point), and let me just say, merciless stockpile toxapex wasn't actually bad.
I thought going into it I would have to choose regenerator eventually but it has actually saved me a lot of times against setup sweepers. You can get up a few stockpiles to stop setup sweepers doing too much damage to you, and in the meantime you can toxic them. Now, that toxic damage may be nice, but they can outboost you and toxapex has crummy damage output right? That's where merciless comes in. Since you do guarenteed critical hits when an opposing mon is poisoned, which you would have done with toxic, you can increase your damage output by 1.5x, especially if you have hex like I did. Combine that with crits ignoring stat changes, and that means something like volc can be stonewalled because they are taking consistent damage from your moves and not decreasing your damage output.
IDK guys, this was a kinda fire set.

 

[Eeveeto]

^This reminds me that it's a shame we don't have other, more offensive Merciless Mons. Imagine something like Sneas... I mean Pecharunt, Drapion or Skuntank with that ability. Monopoison (with Toxic Debris Glimmora, Poison Touch Muk and Corrosion Salazzle) teams could become viable in OU.
In fact, for Drapion the ability fits so well, since 2 of his abilities are already crit related. Good theme right there.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Okay, so I was testing another gimmick team (I have 8 on my alt account, and I've revealed two so far, I swear I will reveal more at some point), and let me just say, merciless stockpile toxapex wasn't actually bad.
I thought going into it I would have to choose regenerator eventually but it has actually saved me a lot of times against setup sweepers. You can get up a few stockpiles to stop setup sweepers doing too much damage to you, and in the meantime you can toxic them. Now, that toxic damage may be nice, but they can outboost you and toxapex has crummy damage output right? That's where merciless comes in. Since you do guarenteed critical hits when an opposing mon is poisoned, which you would have done with toxic, you can increase your damage output by 1.5x, especially if you have hex like I did. Combine that with crits ignoring stat changes, and that means something like volc can be stonewalled because they are taking consistent damage from your moves and not decreasing your damage output.
IDK guys, this was a kinda fire set.

Hey, does venoshock have any niche on this niche set? I remember using and merciless in LC and it is actually good with venoshock.

 

[Heatranator]

Hey, does venoshock have any niche on this niche set? I remember using and merciless in LC and it is actually good with venoshock.

I didn't think of venoshock, so that could potentially be better due to stab. I just like hex due to the neutral coverage and the fact that if any other status is applied, hex still works whereas venoshock only works with poison, though poison is the main status you will be applying.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

I didn't think of venoshock, so that could potentially be better. I just like hex due to the neutral coverage and the fact that if any other status is applied, hex still works whereas venoshock only works with poison, though poison is the main status you will be applying.

Could this core work for that sort of team?

Idea

Toxapex @ Leftovers
Ability: Merciless
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Hex
- Venoshock
- Surf

Glimmora @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Mortal Spin
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem

Gholdengo @ Air Balloon
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Make It Rain

 

[Heatranator]

Could this core work for that sort of team?

Idea

Toxapex @ Leftovers
Ability: Merciless
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Hex
- Venoshock
- Surf

Glimmora @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Mortal Spin
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem

Gholdengo @ Air Balloon
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Make It Rain

It could definetely work, my other source of status spreading on my gimmick team is fling gliscor, so glimmora is a great partner to toxapex. Something like tusk that can deal with opposing poison/steel types when glimm dies could also work as well. For ghold, I would suggest using hex because the main strategy revolves around status spreading, so hex could do more damage. I like your thinking, I came to the conclusion of tera ghost as well, so great minds think alike.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

It could definetely work, my other source of status spreading on my gimmick team is fling gliscor, so glimmora is a great partner to toxapex. Something like tusk that can deal with opposing poison/steel types when glimm dies could also work as well. For ghold, I would suggest using hex because the main strategy revolves around status spreading, so hex could do more damage. I like your thinking, I came to the conclusion of tera ghost as well, so great minds think alike.

Full team is here, I called it Merciless Beaucoup after Merci Beaucoup, thanks a lot in French. Give me some help, waters are probably a problem so help appreciated.

 

[manyproblems]

biggest issues

1. hazards - very sad that hazards have controlled OU for 15 years. we could be in paradise where we dont have to force boosts, spin, sr, spikes on every team. there is no diversity among defensive items because everything runs boots. is it healthy 99% of teams run stealth rock? ou's identity is all about hazards, the most dominate force by a mile.

2. gauging fire - too strong too bulky, plenty opportunity to set up especially with tera. counters are momentum killlers on stall teams like dodo.

3. roaring moon - too strong too fast, now has knock off. guessing whether it has taunt

4. kinggambit - another pokemon essentially 700+ bst with free attack stat. so much damage and bulk and the premier cleaner.

5. glare. one of the dumbest game altering moves. infuriating to play against.

6. darkrai. if it hits hypnosis it basically beats the entire ou slate. sleep is not a healthy mechanic but there is far worse out there (see 1.)

7. kyruem - boots set is too good, can absorb hits and has very little counters.

8. archaludon - raid boss in rain, hardest pokemon to take down while doing big damage back.

9. tera - makes the game more diverse but a has few broken interactions like rm/gf/volc

 

[NotDaProGamer]

biggest issues

1. hazards - very sad that hazards have controlled OU for 15 years. we could be in paradise where we dont have to force boosts, spin, sr, spikes on every team. there is no diversity among defensive items because everything runs boots. is it healthy 99% of teams run stealth rock? ou's identity is all about hazards, the most dominate force by a mile.

2. gauging fire - too strong too bulky, plenty opportunity to set up especially with tera. counters are momentum killlers on stall teams like dodo.

3. roaring moon - too strong too fast, now has knock off. guessing whether it has taunt

4. kinggambit - another pokemon essentially 700+ bst with free attack stat. so much damage and bulk and the premier cleaner.

5. glare. one of the dumbest game altering moves. infuriating to play against.

6. darkrai. if it hits hypnosis it basically beats the entire ou slate. sleep is not a healthy mechanic but there is far worse out there (see 1.)

7. kyruem - boots set is too good, can absorb hits and has very little counters.

8. archaludon - raid boss in rain, hardest pokemon to take down while doing big damage back.

9. tera - makes the game more diverse but a has few broken interactions like rm/gf/volc

You seem to have manyproblems with this meta!

No, but actually lets go through them.
1: Hazards create niches for mons. You should replace this with Gholdengo, otherwise Corv would easily have a W time. Change 1 to Gholdengo, drop it to lower priority
2: Too slow? Stronk, but manageable. Drop it to below Ghold.
3: Agreed, change it to 2nd priority, ban.
4: Slow! #predict the moves. Really not problematic rn.
5: Wow, you hate rng. salt
6: Ban sleep, not darkrai. Move to 1st priority.
7: Boots is bad! Otherwise, agreed. Specs is better.
8: no, special attacks lol
9: Just ban those mons then lmao

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If Sleep Clause isn’t changed and we keep what we currently have, I think it’s be worth considering making Drypass clause (which is something you can actually replicate in game too).
If Sleep is allowed to stay in with a complex and cart innaccurate way, then so should Baton Pass. Plenty of Pokemon could benefit greatly having Baton Pass for the sake of pivoting.
You got;
and are or likely would become metagame staples with Baton Pass as these Pokemon don’t have access to alternate pivoting moves.

you know what, i agree. this survey isn't just about sleep, it's a referendum on cart-accurate tiering. if sleep doesn't get the votes for a ban, it means that the community doesn't care whether they're actually playing pokemon or not, so we might as well go full bullshit and start modding other stuff

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

+3 252 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 241-285 (52 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'd rather not get hit with Toxic

 

[EpicGuy321]

I'd rather not get hit with Toxic

if you do, Clodsire’s dead and you might have Morning Sun anyway

 

[ianlazerbeem]

point taken, but it doesn’t explain away the gist of the statement.

moody + evasion are completely unplayable against.

sleep in its current form, is completely okay until Darkrai reset the discussion.

No one made a big deal out of other hax aspects of OU yet, such as paralysis and flinch yet.

Let's take a step back and look at most of OU up to that point. Paste Hypnosis Hex Valiant in there - what is the effect on the meta? Would it be an effective set? Is reducing games to these rolls more competitive now than it would have been then

Alright. Here's my monthly salt post.

How much do you enjoy SV OU right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
4 - Some days the meta is fun but most days it's just a giant matchup fish. You go up against dozens of different strategies and at least 15 mons are borderline to broken as all crap with multiple sets and Teras.

How competitive do you find SV OU to be right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
2 - A meta based around sleep, infinite hazard spam, Tera, Sucker Punch / Thunderclap...

Do you support tiering action on sleep-inducing moves? 1 indicates these moves are balanced, 3 indicates they are potentially banworthy, and 5 indicates they are banworthy.
5 - Ban sleep.

Do you feel that any tiering action at all (ban or restriction) is needed on the topic of Terastallization?
Yes. Ban Tera.

How do you feel about Kyurem?
3 - Dumb mon. However, it is rocks weak.

How do you feel about Gouging Fire?
5 - Mega-Entei is cracked.

How do you feel about Roaring Moon?
3 - Probably broken but priority / unaware / Iron Boulder is on every team

How do you feel about Archaludon?
5 - It's a brainless piece of trash.

How do you feel about Gholdengo?
2 - Gholdengo is a good mon, but not the cause of the hazard craze. Skarm / Gliscor / Ting-Lu in the hands of a skilled player and team are going to outlast our piss poor removal options whether Gholdengo exists or not.

How do you feel about Kingambit?
5 - F%&*#%@%#%!

How do you feel about Deoxys-S?
2 - Deoxys-S is not broken but I'll give it a slight mention for bringing the Gen4 mirror lead games into an already crazy metagame.

Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the council look into?
Gliscor and Volcarona.

I disagree with you on Kingambit but you are spitting otherwise, especially with your take on Gholdengo but the number is wrong, part of the reason those bulky cores are run is to respond to the instant offensive and defensive pressure Gholdengo exudes when sent out, Gholdengo doesn't "dominate the hazard meta" it forces one-note fat balances

 

[Welcome to mars]

kyurem not that bad tbh

bronzong can do the job however zone needs a “niche” so it doesn’t fall to nu

 

[Setsu]

Hey there. There's a difference between discussing sleep and other aspects of the meta, and just spend several pages discussing about who got the post with the most likes in this discussion. Lets try to stop with the latter.

Another topic in the survey is Deoxys-Speed. How have you been feeling about it? Have you seen 4 Atks, NP, or double hazards sets recently? I personally like this set from vk's Darkrai HO the most

Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt​

 

[Springbris]

i mostly see the set you just posted, definitely saw more of the double hazard sets before but now, anectodally, most people seem to be running the life orb set with rocks and taunt. i think its very good, its a very solid lead thats hard to punish, especially with the uncertainty of the set. at best your opponent will still get up rocks and at worst you sack something or take a lot of damage on a lot of mons. personally i dont find it banworthy, its a very good pokemon but doesnt feel insane. the speed tier is crazy but in a meta with so many booster mons it kinda balances out and the lack of a pivoting move in the vein of volt switch on regieleki makes it more managable to me. i think theres a discussion to be had about whether its too good but i think that should be done when usage stats come out and we can see whether its too centralizing.