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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I've used thunder wave gambit, and it actually is great. I didn't try any paraflinch things with it, but it is a great set as most mons (besides tusk) that switch in are ruined by t-wave. It screws people over immensly, and it can be very fun when paired with hex users, giving gambit more utility.
After falling down to 1100's after testing trash teams, I have finally reached 1300s, it took me three days and most of the journey was completed using a grassy terrain team I created today. In it, I am using tatsugiri as my rapid spinner with memento, and it has been great. It can threaten both arch and barra quite well with storm drain.
so you are telling me that Corv should have lost Power Trip now that it has lost its job and is no longer 'high-and-mighty'.
Okay, but kingambit should have gotten it, because it is literally a king who does not use tactics and just uses brute force, which feels to me like a high and mighty tactic. We could of had a cool iron defense + swords dance power trip set, but nooo, apparently they need to have some point where this thing would be too broken.so you are telling me that Corv should have lost Power Trip now that it has lost its job and is no longer 'high-and-mighty'.
Okay I know I'm tired and tilted rn but I just want to weigh in on how suspects work rn. To start, no I don't think suspects should be easier. I simply want to propose an alternate method that removes the stress of staring at the W/L ratio all the time. I would like it if hitting 1900 elo on a suspect alt counted for voting requirements. That would place the account in the current top 50 of ladder, not an easy task. I just hate losing games to good players or bad matchups and it erasing 4-5 games of progress without much control. For the record, most suspect alts achieve reqs around ~1700 elo, so this does not make the process any easier. I simply want a less stressful more slow paced method of getting suspect reqs as I hate how suspects feel mentally right now. I had 2 losses to storm zone tonight while I was within 1-2 games of reqs and it hurts being that close and losing to a well respected player in a rough MU. I would rather spend an extra 2 hours and really work to get all the way up on ladder than get my hopes up for a good matchup again.
Also if there's a better place to put this post I apologize, and feel free to move it there.
Also if there's a better place to put this post I apologize, and feel free to move it there.
The thing about ELO being the requirement for suspect testing is that any low-70s GXE player can get lucky and go on a hot streak/get lucky with matchup fishing and climb from 1700 to 1900 if they play enough. Maintaining a high GXE is harder, as it shows that you can consistently beat who you're supposed to beat
Okay, weird question, but what mons are extremely threatened by status?
Most of the Set Up Sweepers don't really want to get paralyzed (or burned if they are physical and not a fire type) Kingambit, Roaring Moon, Ogerpon W, Hatterene, Iron Val, Iron Boulder, Dragonite, Volc, Kyurem.
Pokémon that switch in and out don't want to get paralyzed: Meow, Glowking.
Gliscor doesn't like being burned while switching in.
I know that's a lot but I think overall Kingambit is the most threatened. Lum Berry Kingambit is a thing and I haven't seen that item on many other Pokémon.
I mean, Gliscor doesn,t like ANY status (except Poison) when still unstatused. In practice, 90% of Gliscor lead Turn 1 and Protect to avoid that. If there is one Mon who doesn,t care about status at all is post turn 1 Gliscor.
That Tinkaton icon is the most aggressive thing I've seen in this threadso you are telling me that Corv should have lost Power Trip now that it has lost its job and is no longer 'high-and-mighty'.
While toxapex isn't bothering me anymore in this gen it is nice seing it dropping.
Do you think that quaquaval will have any chances of rising if primarina and pwlliper drop too?
They are currently the only pokemon in OU that can resist both of its stabs.
Do you think that quaquaval will have any chances of rising if primarina and pwlliper drop too?
They are currently the only pokemon in OU that can resist both of its stabs.
Primarina is not gonna drop. Too good to drop. (Prim is my favourite Pokémon so I'm kinda biased)
I also don't think Pelipper is gonna drop soon. Rain is too good rn and rain needs Pelli.
We also already have two physical water types. (And Dondozo). Ogerpon W outclasses Quaquaval in most aspects and isn't even that great in OU. Samurott-H is only good bc of Ceaseless Edge+ Sharpness.
I don't think Quaquaval is gonna rise up in the near future.
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To add to this Dozo also eats Quaquavals lunch, it has a middling speed stat, also threatened by alomomola, and as a setup sweeper is super threatened by Raging Bolt/Zamazenta/Rillaboom and is outsped by Pult (if adamant) and the Booster Bros at +1 speed. Definitely a viable pokemon but I was shocked this thing made OU cutoffs even at the start of the generation. It just is not that amazing in the face of everything else.
Primarina might drop, but I don't think it will be in a near future.
The ugly duck for sure won't rise. Both Poliwrath and Water Tauros have better defensive profile (Water Absorb and Intimidate). Keldeo doesn't require set-up to break and is much faster. The duck has some pretty cool moves, like Encore, Knock, Aqua Step and Roost, but those stats are very awkward. It does outspeed Gambit and can lock it with Encore, but Poliwrath and Tauros (who already are fringe picks to begin with) are much more reliable vs the rest of the meta, while still giving nightmares to Gambit.
The ugly duck for sure won't rise. Both Poliwrath and Water Tauros have better defensive profile (Water Absorb and Intimidate). Keldeo doesn't require set-up to break and is much faster. The duck has some pretty cool moves, like Encore, Knock, Aqua Step and Roost, but those stats are very awkward. It does outspeed Gambit and can lock it with Encore, but Poliwrath and Tauros (who already are fringe picks to begin with) are much more reliable vs the rest of the meta, while still giving nightmares to Gambit.
the only pokemon in OU that I don't enjoy playing against is archaludon.
its ability stamina is a little too good and the only unaware pokemon that hit it super effectively with stab is quagsire, which is nowhere to be seen in OU.
the fact that it has only 2 weaknesses to fighting and ground is annoying too, and most specially attacking ground and fighting types have a bunch of problems.
anyway to avoid missunderstandings :
I am NOT asking for this pokemon to be banned, I am just expressing that I don't like dealing with it, that's all.
its ability stamina is a little too good and the only unaware pokemon that hit it super effectively with stab is quagsire, which is nowhere to be seen in OU.
the fact that it has only 2 weaknesses to fighting and ground is annoying too, and most specially attacking ground and fighting types have a bunch of problems.
anyway to avoid missunderstandings :
I am NOT asking for this pokemon to be banned, I am just expressing that I don't like dealing with it, that's all.
it may drop eventually, this generation torkoal and pelliper just can't decide if they want to stay in OU or UU.
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Just dropping by to weigh in on my kyurem stance and providing a few points as to why im leaning towards it and archaludon being okay:
- We unbanned volcarona, weav regained axel and is better than kyu as an ice type, we also have balloon gambits, balloon dengos, scizors, custap prims which beat it, any tera steel ever, bliss, just alot of counters in general, well not alot but it has more than gouging fire and raging bolt, which i think are balanced, people gonna say volc loses to rockslide, so before i get ratiod with that argument, i will say with tera u can tailor all pokemon to beat their counters, which is what makes it a great mechanic, and thats another thing if u still complain about tera u are an interesting fellow (i have to censor myself for smogon pg13 sake).
- It beats rain, thats another thing, rain has counterplay in this meta, its actually annoying how many people bring up archaludon like its some kind of supervillain, predlc 2 everybody was begging for rain to get something to combat rilla and pex, and fat stuff, we get raging bolt and archaludon, people cry, as if gouging and wake cant break everything under sun, as if hippo sand doesnt auto win vs all rain rn if u pack the slightest water resisting backbone , even ttar sand wins, nothing needs to be done about rain, nobody was complaining in sun moon when ash gren, magearna , manaphy, kart and megapert were runnin wild on rain , i think that was way worse than this current version of rain, we get archaludon, and raging bolt, sweet, 2 nice rain mons, 90% winrate spl, automatically its broken, it has a 10% win rate vs me and i dont even prep for archaludon or even give it any attention when building lol, i dont see how it keeps winning in spl, i almost never lose to it on the ladder, and i use a diff team every 2 hours, its like, people wanna say banning arch will balance rain, but people are really saying deep down if rain has no archetype or style that can just beat it just like that, automatically its broken, like it has to be bad to be okay just because of spammable moves, as if gouging fire cant spam moves, as if kingambit cant spam moves, as if raging bolt cant spam moves, or roaring moon and wellspring, they all have spammable moves, people just wanna be passive and thrive, but what really boils my blood is the people who actually think raging bolt is broken , INTERESTING FELLOWS XD, like holy shit, great ou staple, like what? My mind is BLOWN by that stance, thats like looking at ss ou and saying koko is broken, or lando t is broken, the perception of broken nowadays is so twisted, the defensive aspect of tera is so great ,helps keep these mons in check. POV: anything that beats passive balance on its own, you want to ban it, balance has offensive aspects, passive balance should not be a thriving playstyle. Sorry for the rain rant but i was kind of enraged by the fact people actually thought raging bolt was broken, and the people giving archaludon so much hate, when it needs rain to thrive, any solid ground + solid water resist or immunity, should auto win vs rain.
- Tera in itself indirectly balanced kyurem, proving its pros as a W mechanic as a whole, any tera steel mon, gking, or volc, or offensive threat that outspeeds it, can tera and setup on it, or just kill it, gotta love it. Kyurem is not the reason slowking galar is so high in usage, slowking galar was prominent predlc , checking stuff like moth, enamorus, etc, but now with volc back it no longer needs to check fairies but still, kyurem aint the only reason we see gking, gking is fire.
- Lost roost, roost was a big part in its ban in sword and shield, that roost nevermeltice set was lethal, while yes it can tera, and gking can chilly and it gets blizzard kills, that only forces a bulky ice resist, which is why we unbanned volc, we have heatran with balloon, gouging fire forces a strong fire resist, i dont see the difference , gouging is stronger.
- Clefable and garg both come in, set rocks and eat it, ting lu teras and eats it, and it can no longer sub stall cuz of no roost so blissey wins, and if we are talking about veils + dd dice, i see what yall been runnin on ladder, theres so much counterplay to that set, terablast pushes it i get it, but its not enough to push it over the edge imo. Thats more of a veils issue, light clay ban when, but like, if were not gonna do that, disregard this point, but im sayin the right decision is to test light clay.
- Veils beats rain, nobody is talking about how any good veils eats rain for breakfast, whats an archaludon to veils + sd glisc, or any setup ground, Lul, people are forgetting rain might be powerful, but its still a gimmick because its weather, weathers can be reset, ur managing turns, it has restrictions, people are just butthurt and wanna cripple the weathers , they always target rain and wonder why its been unviable, now it gained viability, back to targetting it again, they made fun of me and called me a skillless rain abuser for crushing so many olt dreams with the eleki rain pinkacross and i made last gen. Not knowing rilla beats it, oh by the way, rain got another problem now, raging bolt electric priority + rilla grass priority, so not only does it have to manage turns, it needs a ground AND grass resist now, AND fit the abuser, and if it faces tspikes, skewda is on a timer, unless ur usin overqwil, oh also momentum, if people start catchin on and preppin for lead treads, mark my words rain will be ass again eventually, thats why we have tera, to shift the meta against styles like it.
- Clod just says "hi archy <3 - <3 lemme sit xDDD", LITERALLY SITS ON ARCHALUDON, and raging bolt if absorb, toxics bolt, clod can eq for days on arch if unaware, aint nobody runnin unviable eq on arch, dont give it 4mss when it has 4 good moves, all bc u wanna counter team clodsire, another thing, there is absolutely no penalty in using ep lando over eq, u still get u turn, rocks, and taunt, alot of utility, ep still hits hard, lando has decent spatk.
- Kyurem has threats outclassing rn, like axel weav, arch, raging bolt, gambit, even valiant, its good af yes but its no better than the top dogs of the metagame.
- Banning gambit counters: arch checks gambit, and rilla, its a positive influence on the meta, zama checks gambit, they want both banned for some reason, then gambit comes on top and then we see a post: "it has come to our attention that kingambit has become a problem".
Lemme conclude this post by addressing the possible ratios i will get by saying i used broken checks broken in some of these, the broken checks broken argument is Invalidated if the mons arent actually broken, its like we use 3 balanced pokemon to check a balanced pokemon, but u ban those 3 BALANCED pokemon which then makes the balanced pokemon that was checked by those 3 suddenly broken, and then people say its "broken checks broken" actually anybody who still brings up broken checks broken to counter argue this point im paying no attention to it and i wont take it seriously.
And if yall still want kyurem gone which i think is the wrong choice, i could live with it but dont let archaludon go, please, im actually begging, and then theres people who say we have way more offense than defense, lemme list the defense:
1. Garg
2. Gliscor
3. Skeledirge
4. Clodsire
5. Dondozo
6. Ting lu
7. Skarmory
8. Slowking galar
9. Alomomola
10. Clefable
11. Weezing galar
12. Mandibuzz(yes it has a niche with irondef and knock fight me)
13. Milotic
14. Great tusk(can also function offensively)
15. Blissey
16. Toxapex
17. Corviknight
18. Deoxys defense
19. Archaludon(can function offensively as well)
20. Gastrodon(has a niche try it and see its pretty decent)
21. Cresselia
22. Irondefense Zamazenta(can also function offensively)
23. Wisp hex twave dragapult
24. Hippowdon(which is rising now bc of drill)
25. Suicune
26. Zapdos
27. Gholdengo(can function offensively)
28. Volcarona(can function offensively)
29. Gouging fire(can most definitely function offensively)
30. Enamorus therian(the dual dance set with irondefense)
I just listed 30 defensive Monsters, and people out here saying theres more offense, are you crazy, i play this tier every day, i know this meta, theres way more defensive stuff.
So imma leave you with this:
You say balance is so broken, its the best playstyle, by a large milestone, but remember by banning kyurem and archaludon , you have 2 less balance breakers,
U cant favor 1 playstyle, u have to account for all, even fat, if something was too oppressive vs fat the right choice wud be to test it, but the same goes for offense imo. Dont favor balance by banning all balance breakers, theres anti offense, anti balance, anti stall, anti BO and anti weather, there is literally no reason to remove "anti balance" if ur not removing "anti offense" or "anti BO" aka garganacl, dondozo etc.
I aint gonna chastise all the ban supporters but im just saying once again, one less balance breaker is a step closer to a repeat mess of a fat-favored meta that was the dlc1 end result, had wellspring gotten banned there manaphy would have been next and it would keep going until we didnt have gambit, val, or dengo, and would remain with stuff like meowscarada and azu as top dogs.
Actually wanna take the time to show archaludon some love since it has so many haters, 5% win rate vs a player who doesnt even consider prepping for it is a bad look for a ban ngl, remember what i said about the rain restrictions, skewda counter + ground + any backbone, rain loses, once people catch onto treads leads, rain will struggle and people will adapt to archaludon, its like walking wake, because when wake came out, it has 100% win rate for awhile, then what happened? It fell off, became a sun staple now its balanced, i say give archaludon some time and watch it become just alright and not ground breaking, same with kyurem.
Consider my points on kyurem and why i am voting dnb, the positives outweigh the negatives imo, and on the offchance it does go, if arch goes too, people are gonna start saying this tier is unplayable again.
- We unbanned volcarona, weav regained axel and is better than kyu as an ice type, we also have balloon gambits, balloon dengos, scizors, custap prims which beat it, any tera steel ever, bliss, just alot of counters in general, well not alot but it has more than gouging fire and raging bolt, which i think are balanced, people gonna say volc loses to rockslide, so before i get ratiod with that argument, i will say with tera u can tailor all pokemon to beat their counters, which is what makes it a great mechanic, and thats another thing if u still complain about tera u are an interesting fellow (i have to censor myself for smogon pg13 sake).
- It beats rain, thats another thing, rain has counterplay in this meta, its actually annoying how many people bring up archaludon like its some kind of supervillain, predlc 2 everybody was begging for rain to get something to combat rilla and pex, and fat stuff, we get raging bolt and archaludon, people cry, as if gouging and wake cant break everything under sun, as if hippo sand doesnt auto win vs all rain rn if u pack the slightest water resisting backbone , even ttar sand wins, nothing needs to be done about rain, nobody was complaining in sun moon when ash gren, magearna , manaphy, kart and megapert were runnin wild on rain , i think that was way worse than this current version of rain, we get archaludon, and raging bolt, sweet, 2 nice rain mons, 90% winrate spl, automatically its broken, it has a 10% win rate vs me and i dont even prep for archaludon or even give it any attention when building lol, i dont see how it keeps winning in spl, i almost never lose to it on the ladder, and i use a diff team every 2 hours, its like, people wanna say banning arch will balance rain, but people are really saying deep down if rain has no archetype or style that can just beat it just like that, automatically its broken, like it has to be bad to be okay just because of spammable moves, as if gouging fire cant spam moves, as if kingambit cant spam moves, as if raging bolt cant spam moves, or roaring moon and wellspring, they all have spammable moves, people just wanna be passive and thrive, but what really boils my blood is the people who actually think raging bolt is broken , INTERESTING FELLOWS XD, like holy shit, great ou staple, like what? My mind is BLOWN by that stance, thats like looking at ss ou and saying koko is broken, or lando t is broken, the perception of broken nowadays is so twisted, the defensive aspect of tera is so great ,helps keep these mons in check. POV: anything that beats passive balance on its own, you want to ban it, balance has offensive aspects, passive balance should not be a thriving playstyle. Sorry for the rain rant but i was kind of enraged by the fact people actually thought raging bolt was broken, and the people giving archaludon so much hate, when it needs rain to thrive, any solid ground + solid water resist or immunity, should auto win vs rain.
- Tera in itself indirectly balanced kyurem, proving its pros as a W mechanic as a whole, any tera steel mon, gking, or volc, or offensive threat that outspeeds it, can tera and setup on it, or just kill it, gotta love it. Kyurem is not the reason slowking galar is so high in usage, slowking galar was prominent predlc , checking stuff like moth, enamorus, etc, but now with volc back it no longer needs to check fairies but still, kyurem aint the only reason we see gking, gking is fire.
- Lost roost, roost was a big part in its ban in sword and shield, that roost nevermeltice set was lethal, while yes it can tera, and gking can chilly and it gets blizzard kills, that only forces a bulky ice resist, which is why we unbanned volc, we have heatran with balloon, gouging fire forces a strong fire resist, i dont see the difference , gouging is stronger.
- Clefable and garg both come in, set rocks and eat it, ting lu teras and eats it, and it can no longer sub stall cuz of no roost so blissey wins, and if we are talking about veils + dd dice, i see what yall been runnin on ladder, theres so much counterplay to that set, terablast pushes it i get it, but its not enough to push it over the edge imo. Thats more of a veils issue, light clay ban when, but like, if were not gonna do that, disregard this point, but im sayin the right decision is to test light clay.
- Veils beats rain, nobody is talking about how any good veils eats rain for breakfast, whats an archaludon to veils + sd glisc, or any setup ground, Lul, people are forgetting rain might be powerful, but its still a gimmick because its weather, weathers can be reset, ur managing turns, it has restrictions, people are just butthurt and wanna cripple the weathers , they always target rain and wonder why its been unviable, now it gained viability, back to targetting it again, they made fun of me and called me a skillless rain abuser for crushing so many olt dreams with the eleki rain pinkacross and i made last gen. Not knowing rilla beats it, oh by the way, rain got another problem now, raging bolt electric priority + rilla grass priority, so not only does it have to manage turns, it needs a ground AND grass resist now, AND fit the abuser, and if it faces tspikes, skewda is on a timer, unless ur usin overqwil, oh also momentum, if people start catchin on and preppin for lead treads, mark my words rain will be ass again eventually, thats why we have tera, to shift the meta against styles like it.
- Clod just says "hi archy <3 - <3 lemme sit xDDD", LITERALLY SITS ON ARCHALUDON, and raging bolt if absorb, toxics bolt, clod can eq for days on arch if unaware, aint nobody runnin unviable eq on arch, dont give it 4mss when it has 4 good moves, all bc u wanna counter team clodsire, another thing, there is absolutely no penalty in using ep lando over eq, u still get u turn, rocks, and taunt, alot of utility, ep still hits hard, lando has decent spatk.
- Kyurem has threats outclassing rn, like axel weav, arch, raging bolt, gambit, even valiant, its good af yes but its no better than the top dogs of the metagame.
- Banning gambit counters: arch checks gambit, and rilla, its a positive influence on the meta, zama checks gambit, they want both banned for some reason, then gambit comes on top and then we see a post: "it has come to our attention that kingambit has become a problem".
Lemme conclude this post by addressing the possible ratios i will get by saying i used broken checks broken in some of these, the broken checks broken argument is Invalidated if the mons arent actually broken, its like we use 3 balanced pokemon to check a balanced pokemon, but u ban those 3 BALANCED pokemon which then makes the balanced pokemon that was checked by those 3 suddenly broken, and then people say its "broken checks broken" actually anybody who still brings up broken checks broken to counter argue this point im paying no attention to it and i wont take it seriously.
And if yall still want kyurem gone which i think is the wrong choice, i could live with it but dont let archaludon go, please, im actually begging, and then theres people who say we have way more offense than defense, lemme list the defense:
1. Garg
2. Gliscor
3. Skeledirge
4. Clodsire
5. Dondozo
6. Ting lu
7. Skarmory
8. Slowking galar
9. Alomomola
10. Clefable
11. Weezing galar
12. Mandibuzz(yes it has a niche with irondef and knock fight me)
13. Milotic
14. Great tusk(can also function offensively)
15. Blissey
16. Toxapex
17. Corviknight
18. Deoxys defense
19. Archaludon(can function offensively as well)
20. Gastrodon(has a niche try it and see its pretty decent)
21. Cresselia
22. Irondefense Zamazenta(can also function offensively)
23. Wisp hex twave dragapult
24. Hippowdon(which is rising now bc of drill)
25. Suicune
26. Zapdos
27. Gholdengo(can function offensively)
28. Volcarona(can function offensively)
29. Gouging fire(can most definitely function offensively)
30. Enamorus therian(the dual dance set with irondefense)
I just listed 30 defensive Monsters, and people out here saying theres more offense, are you crazy, i play this tier every day, i know this meta, theres way more defensive stuff.
So imma leave you with this:
You say balance is so broken, its the best playstyle, by a large milestone, but remember by banning kyurem and archaludon , you have 2 less balance breakers,
U cant favor 1 playstyle, u have to account for all, even fat, if something was too oppressive vs fat the right choice wud be to test it, but the same goes for offense imo. Dont favor balance by banning all balance breakers, theres anti offense, anti balance, anti stall, anti BO and anti weather, there is literally no reason to remove "anti balance" if ur not removing "anti offense" or "anti BO" aka garganacl, dondozo etc.
I aint gonna chastise all the ban supporters but im just saying once again, one less balance breaker is a step closer to a repeat mess of a fat-favored meta that was the dlc1 end result, had wellspring gotten banned there manaphy would have been next and it would keep going until we didnt have gambit, val, or dengo, and would remain with stuff like meowscarada and azu as top dogs.
Actually wanna take the time to show archaludon some love since it has so many haters, 5% win rate vs a player who doesnt even consider prepping for it is a bad look for a ban ngl, remember what i said about the rain restrictions, skewda counter + ground + any backbone, rain loses, once people catch onto treads leads, rain will struggle and people will adapt to archaludon, its like walking wake, because when wake came out, it has 100% win rate for awhile, then what happened? It fell off, became a sun staple now its balanced, i say give archaludon some time and watch it become just alright and not ground breaking, same with kyurem.
Consider my points on kyurem and why i am voting dnb, the positives outweigh the negatives imo, and on the offchance it does go, if arch goes too, people are gonna start saying this tier is unplayable again.
Gweezing, Mandibuzz, Milotic, Blissey, Pex, Deo-D, Gastrodon, Cresselia, Hippowdon, Enamorus-Therian, and Suicune are all not OU for a reason: some may have their niche uses on certain style of teams, but the vast majority of teams once again cannot/will not fit them.
Now let's count the offensive mons of the tier:
Archaludon, Barreskewda, Darkrai, Deo-S, Dragapult, Dragonite, Enamorus, Excadrill, Gholdengo, Glimmora, Gouging Fire, Great Tusk, variants of Hatterene, Iron Boulder, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, Kyurem, Meowscarada, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Raging Bolt, Rillaboom, Roaring Moon, Samurott-Hisui, Serperior, Volcarona, Walking Wake, Weavile, Zamazenta. And that's only counting OU mons.
So if we look at the tier itself (and not a bunch of niche defensive mons that do not appear on over 95% of teams) we have 28 offensive mons and 19 defensive mons (and this is being generous to some of these "defensive" mons).
Now call me crazy, but I think 28 is greater than 19.
Storm Zone at it with the spicy takes.
people whining about Raging Bolt even though it gives us a good asf fat wallbreaker with priority that is beneficial in the current meta for dealing with HO, Wogre, and Kingambit. It already has good checks via bulky grounds, Gking, Encore, etc. It also keeps Zapdos out which is good cause fuck Zapdos. The tier is responding well to Rbolt already, so idk it will be considered a problem in the future.
Tho I still believe Arch is broken for how perfectly it synergizes with Barraskewda and the only consistent checks are passive ground types like Clod, and Hippo, which can’t be fit on many structures, and the fact Arch can just get rack up Electro Shot boosts vs WA Clod cause it hits like a wet noodle. Lando and Ting are also Fish bait.
If they have Unaware Clod, or Ting, you could just double into Barra since the switch is easy to telegraph, and if they switch into their Water resist, you just come back to Arch. If they Tera their Ting-Lu, they lose to Arch.
The Tera argument I disagree with for Kyu and Arch. They have offensive typings and coverage that simply don’t let you Tera your way out of it like Srn said. Ice Beam/Freeze Dry + EP hits everything. The same with Draco + Flash Cannon + Electro. You and Vert made convincing arguments about Kyu but this isn’t one of them.
I also don’t like the “balance will take over” fearmongering, because even without Kyu and Arch, we won’t be lacking in ways to break through balance. Things like Weavile, FS Gking, and Gholdengo come to mind. Hydrapple is another solid balance breaker Dragon due to NP + Regen.
people whining about Raging Bolt even though it gives us a good asf fat wallbreaker with priority that is beneficial in the current meta for dealing with HO, Wogre, and Kingambit. It already has good checks via bulky grounds, Gking, Encore, etc. It also keeps Zapdos out which is good cause fuck Zapdos. The tier is responding well to Rbolt already, so idk it will be considered a problem in the future.
Tho I still believe Arch is broken for how perfectly it synergizes with Barraskewda and the only consistent checks are passive ground types like Clod, and Hippo, which can’t be fit on many structures, and the fact Arch can just get rack up Electro Shot boosts vs WA Clod cause it hits like a wet noodle. Lando and Ting are also Fish bait.
If they have Unaware Clod, or Ting, you could just double into Barra since the switch is easy to telegraph, and if they switch into their Water resist, you just come back to Arch. If they Tera their Ting-Lu, they lose to Arch.
The Tera argument I disagree with for Kyu and Arch. They have offensive typings and coverage that simply don’t let you Tera your way out of it like Srn said. Ice Beam/Freeze Dry + EP hits everything. The same with Draco + Flash Cannon + Electro. You and Vert made convincing arguments about Kyu but this isn’t one of them.
I also don’t like the “balance will take over” fearmongering, because even without Kyu and Arch, we won’t be lacking in ways to break through balance. Things like Weavile, FS Gking, and Gholdengo come to mind. Hydrapple is another solid balance breaker Dragon due to NP + Regen.
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it also doesn't get knock off, it should get knock off so we finally ban it
hard agree about archaludon, the only sets that can be considered even remotely unhealthy are heavily reliant on two teammates, but i still have to disagree on kyurem. it's seriously constricting in builder, checking all of its sets requires at least two mons dedicated to it because you're fucked if you only have one and you guess wrong, and i just generally think the negatives of its presence in the meta outweigh the positives. and you're still using the bad argument of "we need to keep this because it checks other things that would be broken otherwise", which is the "broken checks broken" argument whether the mon you're talking about is broken or not. for example, if i said "don't ban torn-t because it checks, i dunno, zamazenta or something", that's still a bad argument for not banning torn-t, even though torn-t is unambiguously not broken. (i don't know whether it even actually checks zamazenta, i haven't seen that interaction happen, this was just an example.) when we're talking about bans, we don't care about what a mon checks or what will become broken if it's gone. we care about what checks it and whether that's adequate enough to keep it manageable. "[playstyle i don't like] will become too strong" isn't a valid argument either because, among other reasons (such as it still being a variant of broken-checks-broken), offense has been too strong since day one no matter how much you try to pretend people are using suicune and enamorus-t and deo-d
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As an apparent "interesting fellow XD" in more ways then one, let me just say that I am not arguing to ban Kyurem or Raging Neck. However, I wouldn't mind a Kyurem ban either because it is probably borderline. And the physical set does counter a lot of things that would check the special set, which isn't many to begin with. It's kind of like a high special attack gen 9 Mamoswine with STAB Dracometeor or a bulky, ice type Enamorus. Strong offensive STAB + Earth Power is often just hard to check in general. But in the most powercrept gen where everything is broken to some extent, is it really too much?
I tend to lean towards not banning mons if possible. We should have more choice in the mons we can use. This is a big reason why I am against Tera. Because all this borderline nonsense we could maybe keep is just so much harder to justify under Tera. Saying Tera is a great mechanic because you can make all your Pokemon check their counters leaves out the important detail on how this completely breaks balance. There are no costs or downsides to Tera, other than potentially missing out on a better one. But if everything is broken, is it ok? No. Because some things are more broken than others. And if they are more broken, Tera is more likely to push them over the edge.
As for Archaludon, I think some people are seriously underestimating its potential on non rain teams. For instance, there was an argument that Veil teams just beat rain. But can you imagine how much of a nightmare Arch with Stamina would be behind Veil? The potential uses for Arch have been underexplored because it is so dominant in rain. But it is certainly is strong outside rain at minimum. And then you have all these effects like folks running strictly special Lando-T just because of all the Arches in the tier. And now you are talking about a more fringe mon like Hippo being a counter. How many meta warping effects like those would leaving Arch in the tier ultimately have?
according to who? random forum users? perhaps people are somehow longing for the days of dominance the regen+clef cores of last gen held, and while it is (detestably) perfectly fine to like slower gameplay, its quite odd to say that without it being top dog, offense is too strong.